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[EFHW]

My first sentence there should say "can't" not can.

[yuma]

but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....

For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.

Or am I still missing something here?

[EFHW]

re: Walrus, the case on him seems to be that he is a 1st time mafia making characteristic early mistakes:
1) He flip-flopped on a vote and seemed too reactive to pressure, as though he was scum worried about scrutiny. 
2) He seemed to ask for permission/validation re: his reads, again presumably b/c he is worried about critical scrutiny. 
3) To some people his tone feels different, less funny.

These are all consistent with the new mafia scenario.  I think they are also consistent with the "just emerging from nooby town status" scenario.  He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.

If we can't come to a consensus on anyone better, I could see myself going along with his being the lynch for today.  I hope we find either more on him or something better about someone else, though.

[EFHW]

but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....

For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.

Or am I still missing something here?

He's contradicting himself.  If he says he doesn't see mafia saying something like that, he is saying he thinks Robz is town.  He follows it up with a disclaimer, but essentially he has said that Robz's comment makes him think Robz is not mafia.

[chairs]

Well I don't really have a great idea of who is mafia. I think there is at least one player voting for walrus that is mafia--unless walrus is mafia... in which case hopefully he gets lynched, but for now...--so that would be:

Robz888(1) Voltaire
WalrusMcFishSr (3): Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi
Eevee (1): EFHW
EFHW (1): Walrus
faust (1): faust
chairs (1): Robz888

not voting (1): yuma

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

chairs, eevee, mail-mi and I am including faust here as well...

my faust case kinda blew up. I don't see anything from mail-mi. I could vote for chairs, but his phone posting does have a point. So that leaves eevee... Is the only reason I am not voting for eevee because the other voter is EFHW? Maybe... but is that bad? No. I think eevee had a valid point about robz and don't see it as scummy...

so maybe there isn't mafia on Walrus? Or maybe Walrus is mafia...?

I am going back to vote: EFHW

I think you can rule out mail-mi and chairs based on lack of information and then say so maybe there is no mafia on Walrus.  It seems like the logical conclusion would be there may or may not be mafia on Walrus, and you don't know.  And even if Eevee's point was genuinely intended, he could still be mafia, too. 

I'm not sure you totally get my point on Eevee.  Yes, his statement was generally logical, and for many people seeing them make a daring comment would lead you to find them towny.  For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.  He would say that dissipate comment precisely because people would think it was too daring for scum to say.  Therefore, I think we can't draw any conclusion from his comment about his alignment.  Eevee would know this, so Eevee's using that reasoning to find specifically Robz towny is surprising, and makes me think he is looking for a way to disassociate himself from the lynch of a towny, or, less likely, defending a mafia partner.

Just as an aside, I really think that forum Mafia, and particularly forum Mafia played with a reasonably consistent supergroup (that is to say that the majority of the games you're in will feature at least some of the same players, though we don't all play in every game) is a remarkable game as we strive to play one level higher than each other.

[EFHW]

I just want to re-emphasize part of my last post:

He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.

[yuma]

but my point is that I don't think eevee ever specifically called robz townie...

The wagon on Robz.. hmmh. First of all, I don't like the attitude of "not having to do anything to make it disappear". But, would Robz be so bold as mafia? I can't say he is a townread for me, but I'd expect mafia to be less controversial in their wording of the critique for the wagon. Just playing more pro-town would have been an easier path for Robz, for sure.

Instead he draws a nulltell from it just like you say he should....

For Robz, that should be a nulltell, though.

Or am I still missing something here?

He's contradicting himself.  If he says he doesn't see mafia saying something like that, he is saying he thinks Robz is town.  He follows it up with a disclaimer, but essentially he has said that Robz's comment makes him think Robz is not mafia.

contradictions aren't scummy... nor do I think it is a real contradiction. To me he is trying to figure out if robz is scum. He doesn't know anything--at least he doesn't if he is town--about robz's alignment and is trying to make a real effort to determine that. Just because he thinks Robz as scum wouldn't do that doesn't mean he thinks robz is town, because he knows--as well as all of us--that robz is capable of doing just that, but that he doesn't think he would.

This isn't doing it for me. Not at all. I mean... look at some of this other posts... This one for example...

Robz, I know you reject the idea that you haven't been pro-town with your contributions.. but honestly, that and thinking your wagon will dissipate on it's own are the only thoughts of yours I've caught this far. Well, you don't like the Walrus-lynch, because you think he was just as "pleasing the crowdy" (for the lack of a better term) in MC (I disagree with that, but it's reasonable, I haven't gone back to pull examples). What are your reads? What actions of yours prove your towniness and make you worth keeping?

where he doesn't come out and say "I have a scum read on you" but instead he is asking more from Robz so that he can have a better read on him and solidify something on him. This isn't the type of post you post if you have a strong town read on someone...

[yuma]

and I should note that I am not necessarily saying either that I think eevee is town. No. I don't know that quite yet... or really have a strong read on him.

But rather I am saying that I think EFHW's reason for finding him scummy is 1. null and void and 2. somewhat suspicious as posts previously have laid out. Hence my whole discussion about this.

[chairs]

I just want to re-emphasize part of my last post:

He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.

Or..

He could be new scum, or mafia could be taking advantage of his clumsy towniness to get a mislynch.

[EFHW]

This isn't the type of post you post if you have a strong town read on someone...

One more effort to clarify, and then I'd like to just agree to disagree here.  I am arguing that Eevee could be mafia, and in that case he wouldn't have a townread, he would already know Robz's alignment.  He would be using his posts to try to position himself while seeming to be trying to figure things out. 

[Robz888]

I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.

[Voltaire]

OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.

WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust

Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.

WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust

I'm going to agree with EFHW (hilariously enough, as she is also one of my scum reads) and say that at the moment I do not have enough information to read mail-mi or chairs and likely won't today, so they're gone.

WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust

and the pool ends up as

WalrusMcFishSr, Robz888, EFHW, Eevee, Faust

Let's take a look at that Robz wagon:

Mail-Mi, Voltaire, WalrusMcFishSr, Yuma

and the Walrus wagon:

Chairs, Eevee, Mail-mi, Faust

and EFHW peaked at 3 unique btw:

mail-mi, yuma, Walrus

Scum likely needs 3 mislynches to win.

I have a secret confession to make. I think I actually really really really like the Walrus case.

Though I also like my vote on Robz still, who is voting for chairs, for what I perceive as very weak reasons.

[Robz888]

OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.

WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust

Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.

Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!

[Eevee]

yuma has exactly the right idea of what I meant.

[Voltaire]

Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!

Not at all. You're an ok town player, amazing scum player. Yuma is amazing as both.

(no offense meant here, this is my "stock" of your two abilities in comparison. The "yuma pass," like I said, only extends to one other player right now, and they're not in this game. Also, yuma-passes have no cash value and may be canceled without notice.  )

[yuma]

I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.

exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...

[yuma]

OK, I think I can narrow down the lynch pool a bit more right now. Right off the bat I'm going to eliminate myself. Cool? Cool.

WalrusMcFishSr, Chairs, Robz888, Voltaire, Yuma, EFHW, Mail-Mi, Eevee, Faust

Now let's eliminate yuma, even though I maintain a lite scum read.

Whatever exemption yuma gets, I deserve as well!

and I still say I deserve no pass at all because the exception is based off a faulty assumption that I always get night killed as town...

[Robz888]

Vote: Voltaire

[Voltaire]

Vote: Voltaire

Smiley, right?

[EFHW]

I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.

exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...

I have a choice?

[yuma]

I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.

exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...

I have a choice?

You don't have a choice about my vote on you, but you have a choice to agree with me about my vote on you... Or you can disagree with it (and we may or may not get back into the conversation we were having)

[EFHW]

I also think Eevee could be mafia, but I don't think he's really taken like a substantial enough position on me where like you could figure out his alignment by basing it off our interaction, so... meh. Thoroughly meh.

exactly... I don't see any evidence for why this hypothetical wa worthy of a vote... but we can agree to disagree EFHW as long as I can keep my vote on you...

I have a choice?

You don't have a choice about my vote on you, but you have a choice to agree with me about my vote on you... Or you can disagree with it (and we may or may not get back into the conversation we were having)

I know your vote is mistaken, but I see why you have it there.  Where do you stand on Walrus?

[yuma]

Where do you stand on Walrus?

Walrus... where do I stand on him... I haven't really gone back and looked at the votes on him so I guess I should...

Well I voted for him initially to kinda get the ball rolling on a very slight scummy moment, but other than that... I am just not sure.

Looking at the reasons behind the votes on him:

The wagon on me is obviously going to dissipate, probably even if I do nothing. I'd have to think scum wouldn't dare actually get on right now. So I find these Robz votes pretty towny. How's that for weird thinking?

Part of me just wants to quicklynch Robz because I think it's an interesting tack to go down.

I actually think Walrus threw out a pretty scummy statement in his recent long post, though (sneaking on at work, so I'll try to quote later when I'm tethering at home), so...

vote: walrus

adding in quote about said long statement for reference:

Of the three non-voters that Voltaire mentioned, I find Robz to be the scummiest. At first I thought you were just being Robz!Robz. But the fact that you "coincidentally" showed up when you were mentioned, and that (as Voltaire put it) you are "hanging your hat" on such a minor contribution--well, that doesn't quite sit right with me. vote: Robz--maybe some semblance of a wagon will move things along, or at least get Robz talking more.

My dad showed up unannounced preventing me from posting last night. Walrus explicitly calls out his vote for Robz as a wagon building attempt. This is what I found scummy - we frequently see scum use this excuse on day one in an attempt to avoid n making a case for their reads. Still phone posting but I'll be damned if that stops me from calling you out!

looking at this reasoning it is actually misrepresentative... Walrus says he has a scum read on Robz. He mentions something specifically he finds scummy about Robz (the hat hanging) and then says he is voting to move things along. So... there is nothing explicit about it. He has a scummy read and votes to move things along. What should he just have a scummy read and not do anything about it and not vote? Yeah, cause that would really help us.

This reasoning isn't working for me.

I'd like to plob my vote down somewhere. Walrus's flipflopping on faust sememed like he wants to please the crowd, first finding him scummy but then changing his mind when yuma (?) voiced criticism on his reasons. That's more mafiay behavior in my opinion, especially a newer mafia would want to blend in with the crowd.

vote: walrus

pleasing the crowd... I see what eevee is saying, but I actually kinda read walrus the opposite way on this. Yes, I thought him leaving faust was interesting and worth voting initially. But I think mafia is actually more likely to not go back... That is just tooooo obvious? I guess. I think town is more of the mind to say... "yeah! yuma is right, why am I leaving the faust wagon?" whereas scum I think says "oh, shoot, yuma caught me doing something weird there, let's just leave the situation and not make it any worse..."

You seem so... different. Less jokey, which I associate with your town self. Maybe it's because it's your first time being scum? Yeah, still fine with wagon. In fact, vote: walrus

Yuck. Walrus I think has been just as jokey. Not a sufficient reason to vote if you ask me...

I just keep finding Walrus' posts scummy. See his last one:

Walrus I never have a lot of serious content early on.  I keep posting to help the game move forward, and ask questions for the same reason, but I didn't have any feeling strong enough to vote on until Eevee's post.  Notice, I didn't vote for you or yuma, I simply made some mild observations.  You both responded with long posts and votes against me.

But mild observations are the scummiest kind!


lol thanks chairs for taking the time to call me out even under such adversity. When you get proper Internet I'll expect you to be posting at volumes upward of 1 Gbit/s!

So you obviously saw chairs' accusation, but don't deem it necessary to react to it in any other way than a snarky comment?

This recent interaction between EFHW and yuma doesn't make me feel any worse about my current vote. It seems like yuma makes well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence. I worry a bit that maybe he's pushing it a little too hard, like why is he digging so deep for this? But it still seems more towny than not to me. And also, although I wasn't playing, I followed Dynasty Warriors, and I too was dazzled by the efficacy of town. So I'm willing to listen to any analogies that involve that.

This is mostly buddying yuma. I mean, "well-reasoned arguments drawing from evidence"? The case on EFHW is more like a weakly-reasoned argument drawing from speculation. Which is fine, it's D1, there's not much evidence around anyway. But then why do you make it sound like yuma was the paragon of reason?

Finding Robz a bit townier lately, with more frequent, more Robzy posts.

I told you I would fall behind in the post count! I wonder how it would look if you tallied total word count?

Surely Voltaire has cultivated a meta of usefulness. But I agree with Eevee; I haven't perceived exactly the kind of zim-zam-boom! usefulness that I expected from you this game. That's sort of what I was driving at earlier. Maybe that was just a problem with my expectation though...obviously you are being an active player now to say the least.

So, you agree with Eevee, with little additional content except buddying Voltaire. I mean, what IS your read on Voltaire now?

I can't help but vote: Walrus now. That's L-1.

1. I think walrus' reaction to chairs argument was fine because chair's argument is pretty much bunk I think
2. my case on EFHW isn't weakly-reasoned arguments drawing from speculation. See this topic elsewhere...
3. Hmmm.... expressing mixed opinions on voltaire. Could be hedging... maybe this last point has something, but isn't really anything special

One more relevant post:

In a stretch of boredom I actually went ahead and read the first 20 posts of Walrus in MC. He was definitely very jokey like he was here (I've never agreed with finding smileys or humor scummy, I recall that being at least a part of someone's reason for voting for him here though), but I don't see any of the hesitation he is showing here. Just votes with reasons provided, no asking for permissions of validations. I'm happy with my Walrus-vote.

Again I see eevee's point here. But I think the only isntance that walrus has done this here is in regard to mail-mi, which I think is actually pretty well explained as he was wondering why no one else was expressing scum reads on mail-mi... the answer? We all would be, but have become more used to mail-mi's somewhat scummy meta...


So I think I actually just talked myself into having walrus as my biggest town read (finally a strong read). And I think my lynch pool is everyone currently voting for Walrus+EFHW (who was strongly considering it). I think it is very likely that there is at least one scum here looking for the "easier mislynch"

For clarity that is mail-mi, chairs, EFHW, eevee, faust (so yeah, my lynch pool is five people) I won't be lynching voltaire, Robz, Walrus or yuma today barring something crazy happening.

[faust]

Yuma's last post is somehow interesting, stating that Walrus is now his strongest town read, but all he does is pointing out why the reasons people voted for him were bad. Like, nowhere does yuma actually say "I find Walrus towny for this reason", it's all "That reason for finding Walrus scummy doesn't work for me". This is weird, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

That said, I don't want Walrus lynched today. I am confident that I will be able to jugde his actions better with the additional information on D2. Instead, I'm moving my vote to someone I don't think I will be able to have a better read on later.

Vote: Robz

[yuma]

Yuma's last post is somehow interesting, stating that Walrus is now his strongest town read, but all he does is pointing out why the reasons people voted for him were bad. Like, nowhere does yuma actually say "I find Walrus towny for this reason", it's all "That reason for finding Walrus scummy doesn't work for me". This is weird, and I'm not sure what to do about it.

Again, this looks like spin to me.

I think that Walrus is likely town because I think he is likely a mislynch based upon the cases that have been presented for him thus far. There is no reason that can't equate in a strong town read. There a multliplicity of ways to get reads on people, this is one.

What is weird, is your vote on Robz which basically absolves yourself of any responsibility as you don't actually find him scummy. If he gets lynched and flips town all you have to say was... "well I couldn't read him, so i wanted him lynched." Nice, cozy place for mafia...

vote: faust