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[yuma]

Vote: Jimm then, unless someone can demonstrate to me that his post-NHS posting was dramatically higher.

It wasn't. I mean he is at an obvious disadvantage compared to say... arch and gveo. But there hasn't been a lot from him, especially day2.

The only thing he has said of note all day (mind you he was sick for a bit there) was

I'm still not 100% (see V/LA thread for context), nor have I caught up completely, but I thought I should at least contribute something, so I re-read yuma. Nothing really jumped out at me except the obvious hammer, and I'm not entirely satisfied with his reaction, especially since he's been telling everyone off for the scumslip thing for a lynch which he hammered. If he wanted more to go off for Day 2, he should have argued strongly against faust's lynch and pushed for someone he had an actual scumread on. I guess the other thing is that he doesn't really strike me as the "masterful" scum yuma that we've seen before (thinking DS9 and MnM off the top of my head). So while I wouldn't rule out him being scum, I do want to look elsewhere when I can.

Other than that he has said he would post in the next couple of days and then posted that the conversation between you and eevee was interesting and that he should look at it.

vote: jimmm I still find 2.7 suspicious and want gveo to address my points about him (and would love input from everyone else as well), but this game needs people to be involved and if votes are the only way to illicit that response then so be it. Basically Jimmm at this point if I can't find you townie then I have to find you scummy.

[sudgy]

I should be able to way in either tomorrow or the day afterwards.  Do you see why I forged that golden ticket, yuma? 

[Eevee]

e

Sorry guys, I thought I was voting already. Could also go for archetype, sudgy and maybe even robz, but really just strongly prefer e. I don't really disapprove of a jimm or any of my null reads getting lynched, I'd need to reread if they start to look viable. I just see better
targets in people I actually remember doing something scummy (activity is less of a town tell here? scum should be scumhunting too?)

I'm a little sad no one commented my long catch up posts at all. I guess I did write too much.

[Eevee]

vote: e

[Gveoniz]

So some interesting things to observe from Gveo...

18 posts in game:

(List of quotes...)

Above is listed 12 different posts where Gveo either uses his newness as an excuse, says he doesn't have strong reads or is very unsure or needs to go back to find more.

I find it very interesting that so many posts contain this sort of language... I do think it would be worth going back to look at the newbie game he was in--or if sudgy or arch who played/modded in it can just remember--to compare this behavior to that game. Cause I am wondering if this is nervous new scum behavior?

I say I am not sure because I am not sure. I admit that I fear to make mistake (more than others in this game(including 2.7), I can see that they are more confident in their posts).  And I understand that this is not helpful and cannot give interaction and read to others.

All I said above are truth but those do not clear me from being "nervous scum", So:

I have been equally nervous in NMIV, it is not shown as clearly because most of the other players were new. And after looking at it myself there the last post I made is still pretty uncertain

The people in the list are pretty close together, unfortunately I still can have any definite read. I was hoping for more information in D2 but sadly no.
(the list...)

(now I read it, I actually wrote "can" despite I meant to say "can't", that may just invalid my argument, hopefully the over all meaning can still be conveyed)

[You may ask:But you are no longer a complete newbie here now, you have played before so your should be able to be more confident.]
That is what I was thinking when I enter this game, but this turned out to be overwhelming, the dynamic of this game is different form a lurky newbie game. that is why I keep saying that I am unsure and need to look at it more.


Also, everyone here have reasons to avoid mistakes and look like scummy, so it is basically neutral (it is probably a bit better for scums though).
      Town: avoid mis-lynch,  give the scums better chance to shoot actual scums.
      Scum: avoid lynch, reduce chance of being shoot by the other team.



That is what I can think of right now, please inform me if I missed any questions. I will do the reread and read list now.

[2.71828.....]

First of all, post count:

Current D2 post count:

Player Voltaire Yuma 2.71828..... Robz888 liopoil Eevee sudgy Archetype Gveoniz Jimmmmm

Nov12 @9:30AM 28 28 17 11 9 9 7 6 3 1

Nov15 @ 10:00AM 45 46 31 28 11 29 19 7 9 3

Difference (activity over 72 hours) 17 18 14 17 2 20 12 1 6 2

The activity over 72 hours is interesting.  If we do lynch a lurker: liopoil, Archetype, Gveoniz, and Jimmmmm are the targets.

[Voltaire]

e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.

[Jimmmmm]

Hey everyone, sorry for my lurking. I had my last exam on the 8th and expected to have a heap more availability, but that's not how it's turned out this week. I was rostered on four night shifts this week, the first of which I called in sick for. During the last two days I got about 4 hours' sleep per day because of everything else I've had to do during the day, and I've literally been doing something just about every minute for the last three days that I haven't been at work or asleep. While I'm not working tonight, it's past 2am and I got home not long ago. I did plan on contributing something before heading to bed, and seeing the (totally reasonable) votes on me, I'll endeavour to do at least 2 re-reads before turning in. First candidate is Gveoniz, since he seems a lower poster and so quite manageable. I'm open to other suggestions.

[Eevee]

Read E's compilations of people, less work.

Personally I'd like E reread because he is my top scum read. He has posted heaps though, so reading everything might be hard.

[Eevee]

And now the other thing: My growing suspicion that Eevee is scum.

Reasons:

1). It's a feeling. Eevee usually screams town to me. He always screams town to me. He's almost always town. He feels a lot different here.

2). He's said some jarringly weird or non-Eevee things (like the Star Wars thing).

3). I was not the only one who thought this. Ashersky was very vocal about how odd Eevee was acting.

Eevee's different this game.  Changing up a meta?  Lots of null reads and jokes, no buddying OR scum reads.  Hmmmm...

And ashersky died.

4). His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.

Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on.  I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though.  A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.

He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).


The totally arbitrary "lets lynch people from this group" action he had going earlier today (he stopped that after being called out on it) is another thing I suspect him for.

[2.71828.....]

Eevee's case against me (as far as I can tell):
1.  Sheeping Robz' case against Eevee
2.  My "arbitrary" list of three people in which to find scum
3.  My "change of tone" in the summary posts (The out on the front lines of battle back into the bunker metaphor-a nice metaphor that fits very well with the point you are making)

Ok.

1) It is true that I jumped on the case pretty quickly.  If by "jumped on" you mean that I asked you to respond.

Points 1 and 2 I can't really comment on.  I don't have the experience to know Eevee's meta (or anyone's for that matter)
Points 3 and 4 are convincing though.  A good response from Eevee is in order, I think.

This was the first new idea that anyone had proposed for a while.  Voltaire was still stuck on yuma (happy to see the unvote), we had started to rehash the sudgy/faust ordeal, I was (and am still) going against archetype, robz had his fight/make up session with Voltaire, and then we have our lurkers who hadn't really said much at all. (you being one of them at that point.)  I was excited to hear any sort of new case against anyone, and Robz case against you was the first.  I also wanted to emphasize it to help guarantee a response.  I am also in the business of lynching lurkers, and you fit that category (back then) so I really didn't feel bad pointing out any possible FOS at you.

3)  And then the next post I had concerning you was my summary post where I "changed my tone" about you.  This post occurred before the FOS that you so strongly pointed at me for the above reasons, so they obviously would not be included in the post, and I was still waiting for a response from you and the summary was basically everything that happened up to the point of Robz post and concluded that the only semi-valid point of Robz 4 was the last one.  See the similarities:

His most recent long-ish post stakes out very rational ground, a well thought out and written opinion on yuma... that nonetheless concludes yuma is scum, but leaves himself room for doubt. It's hard to tell whether he's like just townie legitimiately unsure and torn up about why yuma did what he did, or scum positioning for a yuma lynch.

So the decision about Eevee is boiled down to the last line of Voltaire's post.  Is this scum!Eevee doing a great manipulation job, or is it town!Eevee finally deciding to take a stand for something after being an observer (lurker) without strong opinions all of D1.

Not terribly strong similarities, but basically the same point that reads on Eevee boil down to the strong post about yuma.  Which is not a lot to go on.  Which is why you were not and are not my primary target at all.  In fact, I am very much comforted by your recent activity and really don't think that you would be a good D2 lynch.  Archetype and liopoil are much better suited for that.

2)  My arbitrary list of three.  First, I would say "arbitrary" is strong.  I picked the last three people that voted faust, which is not quite random.  Further, I explained that given any 3 players (of the remaining 9 who are suspects) there are pretty decent odds that one of them is scum.  Now, I did choose my selection of three based on a specific target (archetype) which can easily be seen as manipulating town.  So make of it what you will.  Call me scum or town for that, but only for that.  I think that of all your reasons this one is the only one that can hold water.

[2.71828.....]

e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.

LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations.  Mind expanding it out for me

[2.71828.....]

e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.

LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations.  Mind expanding it out for me

lynch a lurker.  figured it out

[Jimmmmm]

Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.

[Jimmmmm]

e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.

LAL isn't on the mafiascum wiki for abbreviations.  Mind expanding it out for me

lynch a lurker.  figured it out

Lynch All Lurkers. Robz coined LALL or Lynch All Lurkers Literally, but I'm not sure how often we use that these days.

[Jimmmmm]

He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).

I don't understand this. What is really damning evidence?

[2.71828.....]

e is the non-faust voter I'd be most comfortable being the lynch. I definitely think LAL is going to apply here, and I think the best bet is vote: liopoil right now.

Why liopoil over the other lurkers?

[Jimmmmm]

Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.

I re-read NMIV, and he's almost like a different person. I got very different feels from reading his two games. I think that's definitely enough for a Vote: Gveoniz.

[Eevee]

Ha! A response! Great.

First of all, I admit I borrowed a page from Robz's playbook about appearing convinced your case is good to pressure the subject into giving a more revealing reaction. It's terribly unhelpful when pretty ok cases solicit a lukewarm reaction because the subject feels he doesn't need to say much about it because even author of the case himself doesn't seem like he believes in it enough to lynch you solely based on it. But, onto the actual response. Not quoting to keep this readable.

1. I hadn't been reading the thread, so I didn't ever experience the stale lull you described. I was surprised by the easiness of catching up, so I absolutely buy this point. I still believe the scum narrative I introduced is valid, but so is this town narrative of yours. Good response!

2. True, it's not totally arbitrary - but you are confirming that you picked the criteria partially to make Archetype look bad. That's just.. bad scumhunting and a mistake, or scum trying to manipulate town towards a mislynch he deems easy (or, well, a lynch of someone not in their team anyways). Again, I believe that you believe in your Archetype-case, multiball is quite tricky. I just disagree with your way of pursuing it, it goes under manipulation whatever your alignment. Any subset of three having a good chance of hitting scum is by no means a reason to look at any trio harder than other people in itself, but I'm sure you understand this.

3. I feel dumb but.. I don't follow this point. Could you reword it?

[Eevee]

He has said he is busy and will comment on this when he gets back, but I think it's very damning evidence of newer scum (or any scum, really).

I don't understand this. What is really damning evidence?

As I said earlier, I was overstating it a bit to pressure E. The damning part is that he was willing to sheep a case that bad, smells like someone who wants any lynch that isn't on their team. E's rebuttal about town needing some movement was an ok one though.

[Gveoniz]

Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.

I re-read NMIV, and he's almost like a different person. I got very different feels from reading his two games. I think that's definitely enough for a Vote: Gveoniz.

Can you post the notable differences? I am unable to feel them myself.

[Jimmmmm]

Having re-read Gveoniz, yuma's case on him makes sense to me. The overwhelming impression I get is "I'm not sure" and "I can't say". There was also some buddying that stuck out to me a bit (of e and Robz I think). To me the scum narrative is that he's trying to replicate the feeling of not knowing what's going on that he did when he was Town. I guess a problem with that is that nobody knows who all of the scum are. I'll have a look at his other game to see if there's a distinct difference.

I re-read NMIV, and he's almost like a different person. I got very different feels from reading his two games. I think that's definitely enough for a Vote: Gveoniz.

Can you post the notable differences? I am unable to feel them myself.

There was very little "I don't know", "I can't say" and "I am unable to feel" in the other game.

[Eevee]

The more I try to scumhunt, the more I realize how different our lynching criteria should be here.

Scumhunting isn't towny in this game. Making bad cases isn't scummy here. No one has any motivation to fake any suspicion here. People might fake townreads and will vote people they don't believe to be THAT scummy, bu unlike in normal games, they have no need to aggressively pursue someone who they know to be town.

What this means is, we don't want to give town credit for good scumhunting. Scum can do it just as easily.

We want to lynch people for self-preservation and voting for bad reasons. Lurking is an ok reason too.

I'm not sure who the worst lurker is, but I'll start with Vote: archetype. I have sympathy for Jimmm (and know from other games he really has been super busy), subbing is really hard. liopoil I feeeel is a lurker but our activities may have just been timed differently.

The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?

[Jimmmmm]

The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?

Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.

[Eevee]

The guys voting for gweo.. the case is alluring, but don't you think his partner would have told him to stop that night 1?

Did he receive any suspicion for it during Day 1? If not, given everybody else missed it I don't think it's all that likely that the partner would have picked up on it.

I do not remember. Anything of day 1.