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Author Topic: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside  (Read 96797 times)

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Warfreak2

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #275 on: October 08, 2013, 05:40:45 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.
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NoMoreFun

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #276 on: October 08, 2013, 05:46:35 am »
0

I came up with Commune. It was adapted from a card with a single card supply pile. If it won, I would then propose that it be changed to a single card supply pile to make room for another card. The original effect was just "draw until you have 6 cards in hand". That was already space occupied by Wharf in Seaside, so I made it a trasher as gaining durations aren't really necessary and I couldn't think of many other effects (so props to the entries here for a diverse range of cards).

I didn't have time to vote this week, but definitely some good card concepts. I think the duration Remodel best fills a gap in Seaside, but not sure it's my favourite card. Observatory is probably the best demonic tutor card that I've seen on these forums.

EDIT: I noticed some people had a problem with the "Do not discard this from play" wording. That was added by LastFootnote. I thought that the "durations stay in play for as long as they have an effect" rule covered it.

Also for those interested I even made a list of clarifications with the submission. Here's the PM as I sent it:
Commune
Action/Duration - $2
Now and at the start of every turn this card is in play: Trash a card from your hand. Draw until you have 5 cards in hand.
---
While this card is in play, it is also in the supply.

(Rules Clarifications as necessary, post as many as you think are appropriate:
Since it's in the supply it can be bought and gained by any player including you.
The card only leaves play when someone buys or gains it.
If a card instructs you to gain "a copy" of Commune (eg Smugglers, Ambassador, Jester), you can gain it from either the supply pile or from someone's play area; the person gaining the card chooses.
However Swindler specifies that the attacker chooses the gained card; they can therefore choose where the Commune comes from.
Communes in play are not in the commune pile, so it counts as empty for City.
However it is a card in the supply, so Band of Misfits can copy it; A Band of Misfits acting as a Commune can be bought and gained as if it were a $2 card.
TR/KC doubles/triples the effect of the card every turn, and stays in play with the Commune until the turn its gained from play as after it leaves play the card ceases to have an effect
Procession simply does the "now" effect twice then trashes the card, and is cleaned up that turn)
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 05:52:10 am by NoMoreFun »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #277 on: October 08, 2013, 09:28:07 am »
+2

I doubt that it will feel any more like a nerfed Apprentice than Smithy feels like a nerfed Torturer.  Sure, its effect is strictly worse than Apprentice, but it's much cheaper, and it plays out very differently.  You can only open Apprentice 1/6 of the time, but you can always open Observatory, so you can get started on the trashing right away.  In the end game, you can't use Observatory to explode into a megaturn, which is one of the things that makes Apprentice so great.  But you can use it to trash a good card to set up your next turn, which is what I think makes it such a cool card.  Let me elaborate.

The other non-Remodel-type scaling TfB cards in Dominion are Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Trader.  (For now I'm defining Remodel-type cards as cards which gain card(s) based on the cost of the trashed card(s), so that includes things like Forge and Stonemason.)  All of these except Trader (as well as most Remodel-type scaling TfB cards) like for you to kill your powerful cards in order to get an immediate bonus when you know the game is ending soon.  That's a great, fun, and interesting mechanic, but we already have a nice share of cards that do that.  Observatory gives you a decent bonus for trashing good cards, but it's still not really anything to write home about, and I think that will take quite a bit of finesse to use properly.  I imagine that cases in which it is worthwhile to trash a good card in order to stack your next turn will not be rare, but they will also not be nearly as common as with Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Remodelers.  I can see clearing two green cards from your next hand at the cost of a $5 card that's losing its utility making the difference from a Duchy hand to a Province hand, so I don't think the scaling aspect is useless above $2 as others have suggested.

That all sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to come up with specific cases where it's actually a good idea. You're willing to trash a card with Salvager because it'll earn you a huge profit. Salvage a Gold? That's a $3 profit over playing the Gold. Maybe you have only one action left, so salvaging another Action card is often a good play in the endgame. Likewise with Apprentice, if you trash a Gold or $5 Action card, it's because it's likely to boost you to a Province or double-Province turn. Similar logic applies to Bishop.

Unlike Salvager, Observatory is non-terminal, so when you trash a card, be it a Treasure or Action, you are always forgoing playing that card. If you trash a good card with Observatory, you have a chance of replacing it with another good card in your hand and clearing out some dreck from the top of your deck. Will the card you draw be better than the one you trashed? Maybe. You're still down a card in hand from playing Observatory and you permanently lose the trashed card. As for clearing two green cards from your next hand, Scout does that without making you trash your cards. Heck, Develop is a TfB card that can sacrifice a good card to give your next turn a huge boost. Yet it's not topping any list of power cards.

EDIT: Yes, Observatory is probably good with Rats and maybe Fortress, but only when there's no other TfB on the board.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 09:29:39 am by LastFootnote »
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nopawnsintended

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #278 on: October 08, 2013, 10:33:56 am »
0

Wow.  I'm one of the ones who forgot to vote.  Life got busy, I guess.

Both Recycle and Observatory are interesting, and I could see myself voting for either.  Unfortunately, I didn't vote at all...
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #279 on: October 08, 2013, 11:54:29 am »
+3

I doubt that it will feel any more like a nerfed Apprentice than Smithy feels like a nerfed Torturer.  Sure, its effect is strictly worse than Apprentice, but it's much cheaper, and it plays out very differently.  You can only open Apprentice 1/6 of the time, but you can always open Observatory, so you can get started on the trashing right away.  In the end game, you can't use Observatory to explode into a megaturn, which is one of the things that makes Apprentice so great.  But you can use it to trash a good card to set up your next turn, which is what I think makes it such a cool card.  Let me elaborate.

The other non-Remodel-type scaling TfB cards in Dominion are Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Trader.  (For now I'm defining Remodel-type cards as cards which gain card(s) based on the cost of the trashed card(s), so that includes things like Forge and Stonemason.)  All of these except Trader (as well as most Remodel-type scaling TfB cards) like for you to kill your powerful cards in order to get an immediate bonus when you know the game is ending soon.  That's a great, fun, and interesting mechanic, but we already have a nice share of cards that do that.  Observatory gives you a decent bonus for trashing good cards, but it's still not really anything to write home about, and I think that will take quite a bit of finesse to use properly.  I imagine that cases in which it is worthwhile to trash a good card in order to stack your next turn will not be rare, but they will also not be nearly as common as with Salvager, Apprentice, Bishop, and Remodelers.  I can see clearing two green cards from your next hand at the cost of a $5 card that's losing its utility making the difference from a Duchy hand to a Province hand, so I don't think the scaling aspect is useless above $2 as others have suggested.

That all sounds good in theory, but I challenge you to come up with specific cases where it's actually a good idea. You're willing to trash a card with Salvager because it'll earn you a huge profit. Salvage a Gold? That's a $3 profit over playing the Gold. Maybe you have only one action left, so salvaging another Action card is often a good play in the endgame. Likewise with Apprentice, if you trash a Gold or $5 Action card, it's because it's likely to boost you to a Province or double-Province turn. Similar logic applies to Bishop.

Unlike Salvager, Observatory is non-terminal, so when you trash a card, be it a Treasure or Action, you are always forgoing playing that card. If you trash a good card with Observatory, you have a chance of replacing it with another good card in your hand and clearing out some dreck from the top of your deck. Will the card you draw be better than the one you trashed? Maybe. You're still down a card in hand from playing Observatory and you permanently lose the trashed card. As for clearing two green cards from your next hand, Scout does that without making you trash your cards. Heck, Develop is a TfB card that can sacrifice a good card to give your next turn a huge boost. Yet it's not topping any list of power cards.

EDIT: Yes, Observatory is probably good with Rats and maybe Fortress, but only when there's no other TfB on the board.
Say you have two terminals in hand, and only one action.  Obviously you would be willing (assuming it's late enough) to trash one for Observatory.

Maybe that's not what you're going for, so here's another example.  You have Observatory, Torturer, and exactly $4 of treasures in your hand.  All the curses are gone, so playing the Torturer only gets you 3 cards.  You've got lots of green and purple in your deck, so playing the Torturer will almost certainly not get you to $8, and might even draw an action dead (and might not even get you to $5).  If you trash it to Observatory, though, you have a better chance to hit $5 this turn, and you improve your next turn.

Scout is not good because you don't already have it in your deck.  If you had an option to take a free Scout in the late game, I think sometimes you would.  Presumably you would buy Observatory to trash Estates, then use it in the late game for an extra boost.  Observatory also gives a card right now, and lets you choose which card out of several you get.

And of course it's not topping any list of power cards; that was the whole point of my post.  It's much more subtle than other TfB cards, that's what makes it interesting to me.  I imagine it will be very satisfying when you are able to trash a good card and use the benefit effectively.  Other TfB cards jump out at you and say "You should trash your good cards in the late game"; Observatory gently nudges you and says "You should consider trashing your good cards in the late game".
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LastFootnote

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #280 on: October 08, 2013, 12:08:11 pm »
0

Those are good points. I still think that, more than the other TfB cards, there's a large gulf (in both time and power level) between the early game when it's good for trashing Estates and the late game when it's decent as deck cannibalizer. Maybe I'm wrong about that.

Thing is, for most TfB cards, the benefit you get for trashing the cards scales up more-or-less 1-to-1 with the cost of the card you're trashing. With Observatory, it's awful for trashing $0 cards, its utility jumps way up if the cost of the card is at least $1 (because you draw a card), but then its power increases at a much shallower slope as the cost of the trashed card rises. I was tempted to say the card would be better with a flat [+1 Card] tacked onto the beginning (even if that raised the cost to $3 or $4). That would make the card more desirable for late-game trashing, but perhaps too powerful for Estate trashing.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2013, 12:09:47 pm by LastFootnote »
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #281 on: October 08, 2013, 12:11:57 pm »
0

I was too bored to vote for all those cards , and I'm sorry but I like neither of the winners.
Observatory since +1 action/trash seems too good to me at $2, and the effect isn't interesting enough.
Recycle since it has too much of wording.

Okay, maybe I prefer Observatory if you fix the cost, because this non-terminal trasher seems nice and legit.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #282 on: October 08, 2013, 12:28:04 pm »
+1

I think Observatory will be most useful in games with junking Attacks. In these games, it will be able to get rid of junk early and mid, and late it will be able to trash Junkers that have run out of usefulness after the Curses / Ruins are empty.
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cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #283 on: October 08, 2013, 01:06:35 pm »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #284 on: October 08, 2013, 09:25:40 pm »
+1

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?
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KingZog3

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #285 on: October 09, 2013, 08:21:09 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #286 on: October 09, 2013, 08:41:57 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Counterfeit?
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Powerman

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #287 on: October 09, 2013, 09:37:18 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Counterfeit?

Transmute?
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GwinnR

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #288 on: October 09, 2013, 09:55:33 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Counterfeit?

Transmute?
"I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either."
Counterfeit does not care about the costs of the treasure-card, but about its use. So trashing something with Counterfeit does not get worse after playing Bridge or Highway. But it might be a border case.
Transmute does only care about the type of a card, so it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #289 on: October 09, 2013, 11:19:42 am »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Trash for benefit is anything that gives you a benefit for trashing.  Chapel is not.  Moneylender is.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #290 on: October 09, 2013, 11:40:43 am »
+1

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Trash for benefit is anything that gives you a benefit for trashing.  Chapel is not.  Moneylender is.

Chapel gives a benefit! It removes junk from your deck!

TfB is almost always used to refer to trashers that give benefit based on cost.
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cluckyb

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #291 on: October 09, 2013, 11:59:34 am »
+5

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Trash for benefit is anything that gives you a benefit for trashing.  Chapel is not.  Moneylender is.

Chapel gives a benefit! It removes junk from your deck!

TfB is almost always used to refer to trashers that give benefit based on cost.

Well, using that definition Mine is still TfB and doesn't combo with Fortress  ;D
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GendoIkari

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #292 on: October 09, 2013, 12:43:25 pm »
0

I suspect Observatory/Fortress is pretty good.

Is there a TFB that doesn't make Fortress awesome though?  ;)

Moneylender?

I don't count that as TfB because it doesn't give a benefit depending on cost. Spice Merchant isn't a TfB either.

Trash for benefit is anything that gives you a benefit for trashing.  Chapel is not.  Moneylender is.

Chapel gives a benefit! It removes junk from your deck!

TfB is almost always used to refer to trashers that give benefit based on cost.

Well, using that definition Mine is still TfB and doesn't combo with Fortress  ;D

I apologize in advance...


Your what is TfB?

*hopes nobody has a punch in the nuts card in their hand*
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #293 on: October 09, 2013, 12:45:38 pm »
+7

Compromise: if you must make Mine/yours jokes, can you do it only when the capitalization doesn't make it clear? Please?
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ChocophileBenj

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #294 on: October 09, 2013, 04:25:13 pm »
0

I meant TFB meant you trashed something for a bonus dependent on the card (usually on its cost : Remodel Familly, Apprentice/Bishop, including Mine and Counterfeit even if they trash only treasures, and Transmute) and not for any bonus, so I excluded Moneylender (trash only coppers), Altar and Trade Route (you can trash anything but with no bonus) from this definition. And I included Counterfeit.
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eHalcyon

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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #295 on: October 09, 2013, 04:50:44 pm »
0

I meant TFB meant you trashed something for a bonus dependent on the card (usually on its cost : Remodel Familly, Apprentice/Bishop, including Mine and Counterfeit even if they trash only treasures, and Transmute) and not for any bonus, so I excluded Moneylender (trash only coppers), Altar and Trade Route (you can trash anything but with no bonus) from this definition. And I included Counterfeit.

Counterfeit doesn't give a bonus based on cost though.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #296 on: October 09, 2013, 04:53:12 pm »
0

I meant TFB meant you trashed something for a bonus dependent on the card (usually on its cost : Remodel Familly, Apprentice/Bishop, including Mine and Counterfeit even if they trash only treasures, and Transmute) and not for any bonus, so I excluded Moneylender (trash only coppers), Altar and Trade Route (you can trash anything but with no bonus) from this definition. And I included Counterfeit.

Counterfeit doesn't give a bonus based on cost though.
The bonus it gives is based on the card that is trashed, though, kind of the same category as Transmute.  Procession would also be TfB then (I actually think it's helpful to think of Procession as TfB sometimes).
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #297 on: October 09, 2013, 05:15:08 pm »
+1

I meant TFB meant you trashed something for a bonus dependent on the card (usually on its cost : Remodel Familly, Apprentice/Bishop, including Mine and Counterfeit even if they trash only treasures, and Transmute) and not for any bonus, so I excluded Moneylender (trash only coppers), Altar and Trade Route (you can trash anything but with no bonus) from this definition. And I included Counterfeit.

Counterfeit doesn't give a bonus based on cost though.
The bonus it gives is based on the card that is trashed, though, kind of the same category as Transmute.  Procession would also be TfB then (I actually think it's helpful to think of Procession as TfB sometimes).

Well, Procession gives you a bonus based on the cost of the trashed card, so it would have been included in TfB anyhow.

I think that Counterfeit has a stronger TfB claim than Transmute (in the sense that the benefit depends on the value trashed card), since trashing a Gold gives more of a bonus than trashing Silver, which gives more of a bonus than trashing Copper (here I'm ignoring the fact that trashing the Copper is itself a benefit).  Transmute only cares about the types of the card, which is very loose measure of value,  I mean, Transmute is rarely good for trashing anything but junk.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #298 on: October 09, 2013, 05:32:17 pm »
0

Trashing Spoils with Counterfeit is almost always better than any of the basic Treasures (especially Silver and Gold, but often is also better than trashing Copper) and Spoils cost $0, so its not really monotonic TfB.
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Re: Treasure Chest Design Contest Card #4: Seaside
« Reply #299 on: October 09, 2013, 06:31:23 pm »
0

Trashing Spoils with Counterfeit is almost always better than any of the basic Treasures (especially Silver and Gold, but often is also better than trashing Copper) and Spoils cost $0, so its not really monotonic TfB.

Not monotonic with cost, but cost is not the only measure of how valuable a card is.  Spoils is not a junk card; it is valuable despite having cost $0.  I could argue that this is an instance of Counterfeit being even more TfB-ish than Remodel, Bishop, or Apprentice.
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