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[nkirbit]

At no point did I do anything that suggested any other player should claim anything.  Everyone saying that I did so should go back and look for evidence rather than accept the groupthink that I did so.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Alright, here.

Look, the next person who either claims a PR (except at L-1) or says "so and so may or may not have a PR for this or that reason" earns a policy vote.

100% agree.

I'm frustrated at both bocaj and nkirbit for this exact reason. Particularity bocaj because while it makes him more likely Town, his power becomes ineffective. Which really sucks since PGO is one of the quickest way to eliminate scum (and town, I guess. But it's worth the trade off IMO).

nkirbit for pushing claiming.


I do think both are town from this though. I think that what they did was anti-town, but still most likely town.

Vote: WalrusMcFishSr

 

Regarding the nkirbit wagon: yeah I'm actually cool with this. I could understand that it might be unwise for scum to get frustrated or make mistakes, but nkirbit's indignance has a different ring to it to me than, say, shraeye's, who was able to convince me earlier. Not as if my reads are pretty strong on anybody right now but someone's gotta be the choice. You might say that I'm just opportunistically jumping on the lynch, but this was my honest read, and clearly some others got the same impression. Plus, it were best that we lynched somebody tonight (right? maybe?) and it looks like this might be the only viable wagon there is.

This struck me as odd. Especially the bolded part.

Hmmm. It was my understanding that it's usually best for town to lynch somebody, rather than just wait around? This was the impression I gathered when reading through a couple of the other Mafia threads. If the actual strategy is in fact more dependent on the situation, well then, I guess I'd like to know about it? Why wouldn't the town want to lynch someone tonight?

Excuse my noobishness as usual. Either way my suspicions still stand and I still feel comfortable with my vote.

[Voltaire]

Vote count 1.15 has Walrus listed twice.

[Archetype]

Alright, here.

Look, the next person who either claims a PR (except at L-1) or says "so and so may or may not have a PR for this or that reason" earns a policy vote.

100% agree.

I'm frustrated at both bocaj and nkirbit for this exact reason. Particularity bocaj because while it makes him more likely Town, his power becomes ineffective. Which really sucks since PGO is one of the quickest way to eliminate scum (and town, I guess. But it's worth the trade off IMO).

nkirbit for pushing claiming.


I do think both are town from this though. I think that what they did was anti-town, but still most likely town.

Vote: WalrusMcFishSr

 

Regarding the nkirbit wagon: yeah I'm actually cool with this. I could understand that it might be unwise for scum to get frustrated or make mistakes, but nkirbit's indignance has a different ring to it to me than, say, shraeye's, who was able to convince me earlier. Not as if my reads are pretty strong on anybody right now but someone's gotta be the choice. You might say that I'm just opportunistically jumping on the lynch, but this was my honest read, and clearly some others got the same impression. Plus, it were best that we lynched somebody tonight (right? maybe?) and it looks like this might be the only viable wagon there is.

This struck me as odd. Especially the bolded part.

Hmmm. It was my understanding that it's usually best for town to lynch somebody, rather than just wait around? This was the impression I gathered when reading through a couple of the other Mafia threads. If the actual strategy is in fact more dependent on the situation, well then, I guess I'd like to know about it? Why wouldn't the town want to lynch someone tonight?

Excuse my noobishness as usual. Either way my suspicions still stand and I still feel comfortable with my vote.

It is the correct move to lynch someone D1 (especially in a non RMM game). What I found weird was how you worded it and said that nkirbit is the only available lynch when he really isn't.

[Archetype]

At no point did I do anything that suggested any other player should claim anything.  Everyone saying that I did so should go back and look for evidence rather than accept the groupthink that I did so.

I have, and that's where I drew my conclusion. I don't follow the groupthink of you being obvscum for doing it, but I do think you were revealing a bit too much which I find anti-town.

[Voltaire]

It is the correct move to lynch someone D1 (especially in a non RMM game). What I found weird was how you worded it and said that nkirbit is the only available lynch when he really isn't.

To be fair to Walrus nkirbit's wagon is huge compared to everyone else.

Voltgloss, you may need to steer us a bit in our lynch pool like Galz did in HP (by taking candidates off the table). I don't see anything happening to get us to focus otherwise. I'm viewed as too scummy for anyone to take my lynch pools seriously.

[Twistedarcher]

Finally on a computer, this will be much easier.

Faust, the WIFOM comment wasn't directed specifically at you, I think it was Xeiron who brought it up.

From my point of view, there's 3 facets of the Nkirbit case that I've seen cited.

1) He's frustrated.

Yes, he's frustrated. That's pretty clear. But so what? Frustrated!=scummy. Frustrated=frustrated. As Xeiron pointed out, we've seen frustrated scum, and we've seen frustrated town (Ash vs. Mcmc is Mean Girls). To me, the frustration is very obviously genuine. Now, this doesn't mean he's town, but this doesn't mean that he's scum, either. I DO believe that it's more likely from town, and scum has much less incentive to act this way. There's a chance it's WIFOM from scum!Nkirbit, but I really doubt it.

2) He doesn't care about the game.

Even though he's said this, once again, it doesn't speak to his alignment. It could be town, or could be scum. I can't tell. I don't know how anyone else can. Once again, I get the same reaction from points #1 and points #2. Even if he does care less, it shouldn't matter -- we want to lynch scum, not lynch town who care less. And I think his being in this game has caused opinions, which is very useful.

3) He's pushing claiming.

From what I scanned, he claimed anti-vig, and then questioned something else, and has pushed Galz for info, right? I think nkirbit "pushing claiming" is an exaggeration, though. Regardless, even if he is, it's anti-town, not scummy.


Now, I get a mostly null read on Nkirbit from his behavior. If he hadn't gotten any votes, I would lean town, but it would be pretty close to null. However, he's now got 8 votes. To me, this gives me a huge town read on Nkirbit. The case on Nkirbit, boiled down, is that he's acting anti-town. Whatever, it has some merit. But, importantly, anti-town is not scummy!

Nkirbit's behavior, from a scum perspective, is an easy case to push. It's very, very easy to paint anti-town behavior in a scummy light, especially on D1. Scum can just wait back and pounce on someone who makes themselves an easy target, which I believe exactly what is currently happening. It's a bogus mislynch case that's easy to push, and the fact that so many people have jumped on it convinces me that there's scum on board.

I just haven't seen anything in Nkirbit's behavior that says "scum" rather than "anti-town". The points people have made aren't compelling, and seem to me like they're trying to get anti-town behavior painted as scummy. Nkirbit is an extremely easy mislynch, and that's what's happening now. Scum are on his wagon without a doubt, hoping this goes through.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

Alright, here.

Look, the next person who either claims a PR (except at L-1) or says "so and so may or may not have a PR for this or that reason" earns a policy vote.

100% agree.

I'm frustrated at both bocaj and nkirbit for this exact reason. Particularity bocaj because while it makes him more likely Town, his power becomes ineffective. Which really sucks since PGO is one of the quickest way to eliminate scum (and town, I guess. But it's worth the trade off IMO).

nkirbit for pushing claiming.


I do think both are town from this though. I think that what they did was anti-town, but still most likely town.

Vote: WalrusMcFishSr

 

Regarding the nkirbit wagon: yeah I'm actually cool with this. I could understand that it might be unwise for scum to get frustrated or make mistakes, but nkirbit's indignance has a different ring to it to me than, say, shraeye's, who was able to convince me earlier. Not as if my reads are pretty strong on anybody right now but someone's gotta be the choice. You might say that I'm just opportunistically jumping on the lynch, but this was my honest read, and clearly some others got the same impression. Plus, it were best that we lynched somebody tonight (right? maybe?) and it looks like this might be the only viable wagon there is.

This struck me as odd. Especially the bolded part.

Hmmm. It was my understanding that it's usually best for town to lynch somebody, rather than just wait around? This was the impression I gathered when reading through a couple of the other Mafia threads. If the actual strategy is in fact more dependent on the situation, well then, I guess I'd like to know about it? Why wouldn't the town want to lynch someone tonight?

Excuse my noobishness as usual. Either way my suspicions still stand and I still feel comfortable with my vote.

It is the correct move to lynch someone D1 (especially in a non RMM game). What I found weird was how you worded it and said that nkirbit is the only available lynch when he really isn't.

OK. That's all I was trying to convey. And it just seemed to me like we were running out of time...of course there are others who could be lynched but are we really going to get a consensus on that by nightfall?

[Eevee]

You are doing just fine walrus, no need to stress about it! In general I think we would want to lynch earlier rather than later in a situation like this, but I'm not so hot about the nkirbit lynch so in this particular case I'd rather not have it happen as soon as possible. 

[ashersky]

Vote count 1.15 has Walrus listed twice.

Fixed, thank you.

[Twistedarcher]

I actually don't, no.  I'm increasingly frustrated by having been duped into signing up for an RMM game when that's not what I wanted.

I take from this complaint that nkirbit also has a power role himself. Might be a scum PR, might be a town PR. Something to take into consideration.

Vote: Faust

I am not voting because of the rolefishing. I am voting because you are seriously still voting for someone you think has a decent chance of being a town PR.

[faust]

TA, why are you not listing nkirbit's possible scumslip?

[Voltgloss]

nkirbit is the first wagon we've had that has gone past the halfway mark (i.e., has received more than half the number of votes needed to lynch).  That doesn't mean his lynch his a foregone conclusion.

For everyone who is voting nkirbit based, in any degree, on his "scumslip":  nkirbit gave, in response to my questioning, an explanation for his scumslip.  Please explain why you don't believe it.

I'm not tipping my hand as to how scummy or not I find nkirbit.  I want to make sure everyone voting has thought critically about their vote - and I want that thinking explained on the record.

PPE: 8

[Voltaire]

I just haven't seen anything in Nkirbit's behavior that says "scum" rather than "anti-town". The points people have made aren't compelling, and seem to me like they're trying to get anti-town behavior painted as scummy. Nkirbit is an extremely easy mislynch, and that's what's happening now. Scum are on his wagon without a doubt, hoping this goes through.

And who do you think that is?

I actually don't, no.  I'm increasingly frustrated by having been duped into signing up for an RMM game when that's not what I wanted.

I take from this complaint that nkirbit also has a power role himself. Might be a scum PR, might be a town PR. Something to take into consideration.

Vote: Faust

I am not voting because of the rolefishing. I am voting because you are seriously still voting for someone you think has a decent chance of being a town PR.

NO. YOU VOTING FOR HIM IS INSANE. Why are you casting a "pressure" vote right now?

[Eevee]

TA is making a lot of sense in this game. Although the faust vote seems to be  for doing the very thing he is scolding the nkirbit voters about - voting for antitown behavior rather than scummy behavior.

[Twistedarcher]

TA, why are you not listing nkirbit's possible scumslip?

Because I don't think it's a scumslip.

[Voltaire]

TA is making a lot of sense in this game. Although the faust vote seems to be  for doing the very thing he is scolding the nkirbit voters about - voting for antitown behavior rather than scummy behavior.

This. Mild town read on TA, hence the frustration just posted with his faust vote.

[Twistedarcher]

I just haven't seen anything in Nkirbit's behavior that says "scum" rather than "anti-town". The points people have made aren't compelling, and seem to me like they're trying to get anti-town behavior painted as scummy. Nkirbit is an extremely easy mislynch, and that's what's happening now. Scum are on his wagon without a doubt, hoping this goes through.

And who do you think that is?

I actually don't, no.  I'm increasingly frustrated by having been duped into signing up for an RMM game when that's not what I wanted.

I take from this complaint that nkirbit also has a power role himself. Might be a scum PR, might be a town PR. Something to take into consideration.

Vote: Faust

I am not voting because of the rolefishing. I am voting because you are seriously still voting for someone you think has a decent chance of being a town PR.

NO. YOU VOTING FOR HIM IS INSANE. Why are you casting a "pressure" vote right now?

Faust is saying that there's a decent chance that Nkirbit is a town PR, in his eyes.

Yet, he's cool with Nkirbit chilling at 8 votes.

This, to me, seems like Faust is okay lynching someone who is a town PR. In other words, he's scum.

My vote is not a "pressure" vote. I think that Faust's vote is scummy. Once again, he is okay lynching someone he thinks is a town power role!!!!

[Voltaire]

Faust is saying that there's a decent chance that Nkirbit is a town PR, in his eyes.

Yet, he's cool with Nkirbit chilling at 8 votes.

This, to me, seems like Faust is okay lynching someone who is a town PR. In other words, he's scum.

My vote is not a "pressure" vote. I think that Faust's vote is scummy. Once again, he is okay lynching someone he thinks is a town power role!!!!

I think, if you read faust's posts, he's made it very clear he finds it far more likely nkirbit is scum with a PR.

[Voltgloss]

Voltgloss, you may need to steer us a bit in our lynch pool like Galz did in HP (by taking candidates off the table). I don't see anything happening to get us to focus otherwise. I'm viewed as too scummy for anyone to take my lynch pools seriously.

I've been working on my thoughts throughout the day and I will give them in due time.  That time's not yet, but it's soon.

Also:  self-pity grinds my gears.  Especially when you're not the guy with 8 votes on him.

Also also:  for the love of redacted stop suggesting that I "steer" things. 

[Twistedarcher]

I think you guys are drawing the line differently than I am on anti-town / scummy.

Self-voting is anti-town, but not necessarily scummy.

Pushing claiming is anti-town, but not necessarily scummy.

Frustration can be anti-town, and can be scummy, but it doesn't have to be.

Being willing to lynch someone you think is a town PR is not only incredibly anti-town, but also incredibly scummy.

[Voltaire]

Voltgloss, you may need to steer us a bit in our lynch pool like Galz did in HP (by taking candidates off the table). I don't see anything happening to get us to focus otherwise. I'm viewed as too scummy for anyone to take my lynch pools seriously.

I've been working on my thoughts throughout the day and I will give them in due time.  That time's not yet, but it's soon.

Also:  self-pity grinds my gears.  Especially when you're not the guy with 8 votes on him.

Also also:  for the love of redacted stop suggesting that I "steer" things.

Sorry for suggesting a strategy I've seen work for town in the past.

[Voltaire]

Being willing to lynch someone you think is a town PR is not only incredibly anti-town, but also incredibly scummy.

Edge cases. Edge cases everywhere (see my post above).

I'm bowing out of this thread for awhile. My vote is where I want it. I've stated where I'll move it. nkirbit is the lowest of the places I'll vote.

[faust]

Vote: Faust

I am not voting because of the rolefishing. I am voting because you are seriously still voting for someone you think has a decent chance of being a town PR.

With at least two town PRs already outed, I believe he's much more likely to be a scum PR. Or just scum trying to make us believe he's a PR.

[Twistedarcher]

I agree with Voltgloss. He should not steer things. An IC steering thing takes away decisions from players, and decisions are how we analyze who's scum. Saying "tell me who I should consider voting for!" not only lowers the odds but also causes scum players to disguise their votes more easily.