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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 320584 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #250 on: May 30, 2015, 07:42:27 am »
0

I think a good comparison is Embassy: net +2 cards with substantial sifting. Embassy costs $5 and has an on-gain bonus to your opponents; but on the other hand its sifting is a lot more flexible and doesn't depend on a particular deck setup.

Hmm... The $4/$5 gap is pretty huge... But unlike Smithy and Embassy, Blacksmith is also (depending on your deck) unreliable. Which, unlike Managerie, becomes important in that it is terminal. Two unreliable terminals come to my mind, and those are Harvest and Tribute, usually considered rather bad cards. Maybe Blacksmith for $4 isn't overly strong after all. It certainly is better than Smithy very often, but takes strategy, a bit of luck, and draws less on paper. I think i'm okay with its price point for now.

Edit:
Also, Prophecy with only one token:

Prophecy, Event, $6
Put your Prophecy token on an Action card pile in the supply. When another player plays a card from a pile with your Prophecy token on it, you get +1 Card.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2015, 07:45:29 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #251 on: June 03, 2015, 11:20:02 am »
+4

mail-mi's fan card Invaders is an attack of which you always have one less in your deck than you gained, because one is always in play. Trying to find a wording with less tracking issues, i pondered about a way to implement this using the Tavern Mat, until LastFootnote pointed out that you could simply check whether there allready was a copy set aside/on your Tavern Mat on the card itself and act accordingly (setting it aside/on your Mat if there wasn't).

This in turn made me feel just reducing the number of available cards by one was a bit simple and not worth using the Mat, so i tried thinking of a card that used it meaningfully. This got me to Barkeeper, an idea that i feel is different enough from mail-mi's card to be comfortable about posting here:



It's not a Reserve because it does not always put itself on theTavern Mat, which Reserves apparently do. Also you can't call it, so i felt it would really just confuse people. I put the option to put it on your Mat first (before rewarding you for cards on the mat), so players would feel encouraged to use it from time to time. The name's mostly because, hey, what's a Tavern without a Barkeeper?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #252 on: June 03, 2015, 11:31:38 am »
+1

I like the card; simple and unique. A few nitpicks:

It should be the Reserve type. There was a card during development that optionally put itself on the Tavern mat, just like Barkeeper. It was a Reserve card.

The "+1 Card" in the text shouldn't be bold. None of the published cards have bold text in the middle of non-bold text and it looks really weird.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #253 on: June 03, 2015, 11:35:31 am »
+2

I would be tempted to simplify Bartender further.

Barkeeper: Action–Reserve, $3
+1 Buy. You may put this on your Tavern mat. +2 Cards per Barkeeper on your Tavern mat.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #254 on: June 03, 2015, 01:54:28 pm »
+5

I like the card; simple and unique. A few nitpicks:

It should be the Reserve type. There was a card during development that optionally put itself on the Tavern mat, just like Barkeeper. It was a Reserve card.


I'm still a little annoyed by this. Every other type in Dominion either has actual rules associated with it, or has other cards that refer to the type. (Except maybe Reactions; it's not clear that Moat couldn't behave exactly the same within the rules if it didn't have the reaction type). The Reserve type doesn't do anything. And it's not even consistent on what it really means. It doesn't mean that it can be called (Wine Merchant, Distant Lands). It doesn't mean that it does requires the Tavern Mat (Miser). It doesn't mean that it can be put on the Tavern Mat (Copper because of Miser).

Now I do like the idea of having a card that references the Reserve type. Of course it would need to be a Reserve itself.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #255 on: June 03, 2015, 02:03:20 pm »
+3

I'm still a little annoyed by this. Every other type in Dominion either has actual rules associated with it, or has other cards that refer to the type. (Except maybe Reactions; it's not clear that Moat couldn't behave exactly the same within the rules if it didn't have the reaction type). The Reserve type doesn't do anything. And it's not even consistent on what it really means. It doesn't mean that it can be called (Wine Merchant, Distant Lands). It doesn't mean that it does requires the Tavern Mat (Miser). It doesn't mean that it can be put on the Tavern Mat (Copper because of Miser).

I hear you and I empathize.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #256 on: June 03, 2015, 02:27:35 pm »
+1

I just realized why i'm always tempted to put vanilla bonuses in the middle of a text in bold: The german cards do that. Actually, making them not bold looks weird to me, but obviously that's how it should be.

Which makes me curious how Duration Attacks or Caravan Guard will be solved in the German Adventures: Duration effects were always below a dividing line in german. So will german Adventures be the first Dominion to introduce two dividing lines? I'm a bit surprised Rio Grande Games didn't rectify this when they re-issued Seaside.

Either way, a question about the name: Is Barkeeper something different than the image communicates? You used the name "Bartender", and i wasn't sure how i should call the card. Options were Barkeeper, Innkeeper, Publician and Bartender. I really wasn't sure which fit best, which is probably another problem of not being a native english speaker. The subtleties between those evade me (escape me? slip me?).

Edit 2:
I'll change it to be a Reserve, if you think i should. I'm not entirely sure i like your suggestion (or at least not sure i like it more than the original). +2 Cards seems to make splitting more important and makes the decision to put it on the Mat a bit trivial (for the first few). Also it looks like it should be cheaper that way, making it still a bit more similar to Fool's Gold (given the split allready matters). Also i'd just like to have one more $3, even though my cards hardly form a "set" either way. But i'll think about it.

Edit: "Bartender" Mockup.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2015, 02:45:50 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #257 on: June 03, 2015, 02:43:34 pm »
+1

Whoops, I meant to say "Barkeeper" each time, but a "Bartender" slipped in. "Barkeeper" isn't a word that gets much use in modern day American English. I couldn't really say if or when it was used much in the past. I think "Barkeep" (without the "-er") sounds more natural while maintaining a medieval/fantasy feel. "Bartender" is the modern word that I believe is ubiquitous in the U.S. now. I would go with one of those.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #258 on: June 03, 2015, 02:46:29 pm »
+1

Yeah, it's very possible that your version is better than mine. It rubs me the wrong way a little bit that you draw 2 cards first, do something else, and then maybe draw more cards. But that's such a minor thing and I bet it feels natural to play it.

My version does scale more, but I think that would make it more exciting if it worked out. But maybe it would just be too crazy.

Now I'm pondering a version that's just like yours except it gives +$1 per Bartender on your Tavern mat instead of +1 Card. Hmm...
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #259 on: June 03, 2015, 02:53:49 pm »
+1

Yeah, it's very possible that your version is better than mine. It rubs me the wrong way a little bit that you draw 2 cards first, do something else, and then maybe draw more cards. But that's such a minor thing and I bet it feels natural to play it.

My version does scale more, but I think that would make it more exciting if it worked out. But maybe it would just be too crazy.

Now I'm pondering a version that's just like yours except it gives +$1 per Bartender on your Tavern mat instead of +1 Card. Hmm...

Originally it looked like this:

Bartender, $3
+2 Cards
+1 Buy
+1 Card per Bartender on your Tavern Mat. You may put this on your Tavern Mat.

I figured that it would seem more attractive to put it on the Mat if you got an immediate bonus, like with Mining Village. Later it occured to me that this introduces another problem: You decide to remove a card from your deck, and if you're unlucky you draw junk with that additional card. Which is especially bad if you remove your last Bartender to end the game and fail (or something like that). I can see why +$ is an attractive alternative, or why you might want to put it on the Mat last. Probably this isn't the perfect solution.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 10:20:58 am by Asper »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #260 on: June 04, 2015, 09:52:10 am »
+1

I like the name "Barkeep" best. I like the concept and find the artwork hilarious, just like Wine Merchant. Not sure whether it needs to be a Reserve card but it feels kinda natural this way, also I like the Reserve card colour pattern. I prefer the version that lets you put it on the mat first before receiving the bonus, and the bonus being minor first and stronger later (so either +1 Card or +$1). Both seem reasonable to me but obviously would play very differently. Maybe try both and see which one is more fun.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #261 on: June 04, 2015, 10:16:33 am »
+1

I agree that the ability to put the Barkeep on your Tavern mat before getting the bonus seems better.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #262 on: June 04, 2015, 11:07:52 am »
+1

Allright, so it's Barkeep and putting it on the Mat first. I liked that better either way, it was just having to take a chance that i didn't like.

The coin variant solves this nicely, though i'm still struggeling to accept it's probably the best solution. Coins are just such a standard fix, and surely they are for a reason, but they seem a bit boring. Also i guess technically every terminal draw is taking a chance (though usually you can't lose, unless you have to decide between two terminals). Either way, the coin variant avoids something negative that doesn't need to be, so maybe i should just go with coins. I'd still like the standard bonus to be the way it is, see reasoning below.





Things i considered but don't want to go for:


For the first, i really would have liked to have a +buy card, but obviously having a buy on there makes it strictly better than Woodcutter.
The second is rather useless when you just have one, which i don't really want the card to be.
(Edit: I also considered a version á la Herbalist (just +1$ +1 Buy standard), but that was weak, and a Herbalist version that gave an action, which became too similar to Fool's Gold/Candlestick Maker for my liking.)

Also thanks for your valuable responses, i'm a bit weak on deciding today i'm afraid :)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2015, 11:10:15 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #263 on: June 07, 2015, 06:57:19 pm »
+4

Played a testgame today with Co0kieL0rd, and boy it's no fun to have Necromancers on both sides trashed with Zombie, just to have the first player to play a Necromancer get them all. I'm considering to change the wording on Necromancer to something like this:

"Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it"

Alternatively, i could reevaluate versions that give a standard bonus and just gain the trashed card.

Also Necromancer/Zombie prolongues the game a fair bit, so i'm reconsidering a Knight clause on Zombie again. Not sure it will help, because you can still gain Zombies with Necromancer.

To be fair, the game also had Parliament, and Zombies were an attractive target. Needless to say that, like Saboteur, multiple Zombie attacks per turn can destroy a deck. I ended up with 10 cards in mine and Co0kieL0rd ran out of things to steal from me. Ouch. Still a fun game.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #264 on: June 07, 2015, 07:14:56 pm »
+2

I think the suggested nerf to Zombie is especially important to make sure the card does not become as frustrating and unpopular as Saboteur, but still as annoying as Knights ;) While I personally enjoyed the game, I can easily see people being frustrated when getting attacked by an engine that plays several Zombies a turn.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #265 on: June 07, 2015, 09:07:53 pm »
+4

A few options:

• Necromancer could only be able to gain cards costing less than it.
• Zombies could only trash cards costing $3 or $4, like Warrior.
• Zombies could always trash themselves when they trash a card (LibraryAdventurer's suggestion).
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #266 on: June 08, 2015, 12:50:18 am »
+2

The version I ended up printing and using had "If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this."  :
Quote
Zombie
Cost $4*. Action - Attack
+1 Action. +$1.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest. If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this.
(This is not in the supply.)
I thought it was fun, but we only played one game with it and only once had anyone play more than one Zombie in a turn.

I like your idea of saying "Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it".

Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #267 on: June 08, 2015, 06:28:06 am »
+1

The version I ended up printing and using had "If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this."  :
Quote
Zombie
Cost $4*. Action - Attack
+1 Action. +$1.
Each other player reveals the top 2 cards of his deck, trashes one costing from $3 to $6, and discards the rest. If any cards costing more then $4 are trashed, trash this.
(This is not in the supply.)
I thought it was fun, but we only played one game with it and only once had anyone play more than one Zombie in a turn.

I like your idea of saying "Gain an Action or Treasure card from the trash. If it is not a Necromancer, play it".

Wow, thanks for using the card and sharing your experience. :)
Awesome.


We also had another game where Co0kieL0rd's Beachcomb and Money Launderer met my Town and Paddock. There were also Jack and Sea Hag.  Too many good cards for me to see through, but what became apparent was that only a few Roads could be insanely good, even with Town as the only Village. Might have to revisit those two again. Paddock wasn't that bad, but couldn't keep me from losing the game after i made the awful mistakes to skip Sea Hag for Jack and not get any Beachcombs. For reference to Co0kieL0rd's cards see his thread "Roots and Renewal".
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #268 on: June 08, 2015, 11:33:20 am »
+1

Thanks for referencing my set :)

For Paddock I have to say this: while the card is fine per se, it is rarely a good idea to focus your strategy around Silver. In our game, alt-VP were weak (Island) and engine potential was strong. Paddock had no place in it. I'd be happy to play a game where Paddock is more useful (slog/BM?).

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #269 on: June 08, 2015, 01:50:43 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #270 on: June 08, 2015, 02:21:32 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

It should cost $5! But unfortunately, with +1 Action tokens now existing, it cannot be a Supply card. Even as a non-Supply card it's still problematic with Champion. Even with neither of those available, when we playtest Road more, it might turn out to be hugely better than we intially thought. And then it might need some kind of nerf or penalty.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #271 on: June 08, 2015, 02:25:01 pm »
+2

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #272 on: June 08, 2015, 02:37:18 pm »
+1

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
Yeah, we (Asper and I) actually already agreed that, at the point where you have a Champion, it doesn't really matter anymore anyway. Nothing does. Just go nuts with your Roads or whatever cards you like.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #273 on: June 08, 2015, 02:52:28 pm »
+6

It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #274 on: June 08, 2015, 02:55:32 pm »
+1

For what it's worth, I don't think Champion is necessarily a deal-breaker for Road. I do agree that it shouldn't be in the Supply because Lost Arts is a problem.
Yeah, we (Asper and I) actually already agreed that, at the point where you have a Champion, it doesn't really matter anymore anyway. Nothing does. Just go nuts with your Roads or whatever cards you like.

Man, I knew there'd be some backlash about Champion in the community, but I didn't expect as much as there seems to be. It absolutely does matter.
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