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Author Topic: Asper's Cards  (Read 320858 times)

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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #275 on: June 08, 2015, 03:17:53 pm »
+1

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

When you did that it didn't come with a free Village. Alas, i still must admit that i gravely underestimated the power of the vile monster i hath created.

Edit:
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2015, 03:19:38 pm by Asper »
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pacovf

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #276 on: June 08, 2015, 07:42:13 pm »
+2

As for Town, it became apparent what I didn't really consider prior to testing it; in a deck full of villages, you basically only need one Road (2-3 to increase your chance of drawing it early) to draw your entire deck. You could nerf it by saying, e. g. "If you played less than [X] actions this turn, put this into your hand." This isn't very elegant, but I have no better idea currently. Maybe it's not that big of an issue, because in practise a deck whose draw power only relies on a few Roads might stall quickly after you start greening. With this in mind, Road might still be fine.

...Were you here while I vehemently argued that Road (back when it was still called River) should cost 5$? :P

Please don't add that clause, or you'll make kittens cry. :(

When you did that it didn't come with a free Village. Alas, i still must admit that i gravely underestimated the power of the vile monster i hath created.

You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could that you didn't stop to think if you should. :(

Anyhoo, I wouldn't draw conclusions from a single playtest.


Quote
Edit:
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.

5! = 5*4*3*2*1 = 120.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #277 on: June 08, 2015, 08:41:43 pm »
+1

You were so preoccupied with whether or not you could that you didn't stop to think if you should. :(

Anyhoo, I wouldn't draw conclusions from a single playtest.

That's what they told me when i did my experiments on Noble's Isle.

Science is not a should, it's a must. Every little thing you can't grasp is a piece of the world lost, and a piece of the world not lived in. No greater sin than ignorance. Truth, and truth alone... Oh wait, we were talking about fan cards...

*ahem*


Quote
It should cost $5!

I dunno, it's going to be really hard to hit $120 on most boards.

I don't get it.

5! = 5*4*3*2*1 = 120.

Ah. Embarrassing i didn't get that. I used to love stochastics. Thanks for explaining.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2015, 12:04:32 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #278 on: June 12, 2015, 09:21:49 am »
+3

Co0kieL0rd and i played a very interesting game full of fun interactions recently. The kingdom was:

Realm Tax (CL's Roots & Renewal)
PawnPeasant
Sultan (My card)
Floodgate (LF's Enterprise)
Barkeep (My card)
Dungeon
Rats
Benefit (CL's Roots & Renewal)
Mint
Wine Merchant

Practically every card was used, with the exception of Rats and Wine Merchant. We used Shelters, which made Sultan a tad more attractive, and so i actually opened Floodgate/Sultan, trashing my Hovel. Co0kieL0rd went for Pawns.

Fun things were:

Realm Tax counts all card in play, including other player's Dungeons. Barkeep can be put on the Mat if you want to get Realm Tax and kept in play if you want to play one. Floodgate helped align Provinces with Sultan and was a decent target itself. Mint got rid of the Coppers to help Sultan collide with Province, and Sultan in turn provided Golds for Mint. Also it was nice to discard Overgrown Estate for Sultan and still get a Realm Tax in hand.

Benefit was able to gain lots of Barkeeps. At one point Co0kieL0rd asked me why i wasn't choking in Barkeeps, and it was only then that i realized that with a few Barkeeps on the Mat one of them behaves a bit like Cultist (if you ignore the buy) - it's as if one of the cards you drew was a Barkeep and you were allowed to play it immediately. Well, that's probably a bad comparison, especially since we used the version that gives coins, but it gave me a bit of a feel for how powerful it may be.

Co0kieL0rd later teached his Sultan Science to become a Lab, but i was allready ahead by then. I don't think i would have gotten enough Barkeeps without Benefit, or be as sucessful with my Sultans without Floodgate, Mint and Realm Tax.

We also played another fun game yesterday (which i lost... *grumble*), but more about that later. All in all we felt this was a great Sultan/Barkeep board, and that they were sill okay at $3 each.

Edit: Another interaction i forgot was Floodgate/Dungeon. It really was full of these.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 08:24:18 am by Asper »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #279 on: June 13, 2015, 06:51:36 am »
+1

PEASANT, dude, not Pawn ;) Although I find myself confusing those two sometimes, too. They're potentially the new Mint and Mine.

A fun game indeed, as have been all games so far. It's a great idea to mix cards from different sets and thus create a lot of variety. The other game we played had a lot of trash-for-benefit including Asper's Assemble. It may just be too easy to Assemble a $5-cost card into a Province and a Copper which is almost not a penalty toward the end of the game. The gained cards should probably go on top of your deck in Develop's fashion.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #280 on: June 13, 2015, 08:35:13 am »
0

Peasant, Pawn? Those words practically mean the same to me O__o
No wonder i'm confusing them.

Also, yeah, i think LastFootnote suggested the topdecking for Assemble before, and i think it's a nice thing to do. It's not even strictly a nerf, as it only harms you when you trash 5$s for Provinces. For Silvers it's a topdecking Mint, and there might be cases where you want to make a 4$ and a $2 out of a 3$, or even two 4$s out of a 5$. Granted, those cases is a lot less trivial, but shifting the card a bit in that direction makes it potentially more interesting in my book. Assemble should be nice with good/harmless $2s.

Here are the mockups of the new Assemble and the slightly tweaked Necromancer:



I'm still not sure Zombie needs a nerf, as i'm more and more getting the feeling that the problem lies with Parliament, not Zombie. For this reason i'm removing Parliament for now and hope to give Zombie another go sooner or later.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #281 on: June 22, 2015, 07:00:54 am »
+2

The Parliament is dead. Long live the Parliamentses.

(Images were killed by host)

The first one seems incredibly strong to me, but maybe it's okay. It's like a Mint for actions... that gives a bonus... and puts them in your hand... But at least it does nothing on gain. Not that much of a TR variant, anymore, though.
The second one is so much worse for terminals, but might have its places.

Probably not my brightest ideas, but whatever. Better than the old one, at least...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 10:19:01 am by Asper »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #282 on: June 22, 2015, 07:48:44 am »
+4

I think the version of Parliament that played an Action twice if it cost $4 and three times if it costs $3 or less was your most creative idea (of all the Parliaments). It didn't seem broken or un-fun to me. The problem when we played with it was just that there was a $3-cost trashing attack which made Parliament seem overpowererd when technically it isn't. But, I mean, it's your cards so if you didn't like that version, that's your decision, man.

In the case of these two new suggestions I'd prefer the simpler one, the right one. I don't think it needs the word "too" on it but if you think it does, there should be a comma before it. Both cards seem less interesting to me than your old parliament. Also both are quite similar to Disciple, the right one in particular. I also had a similar idea for a TR-variant that became obsolete with Disciple.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #283 on: June 22, 2015, 01:38:35 pm »
+1

I think the version of Parliament that played an Action twice if it cost $4 and three times if it costs $3 or less was your most creative idea (of all the Parliaments). It didn't seem broken or un-fun to me. The problem when we played with it was just that there was a $3-cost trashing attack which made Parliament seem overpowererd when technically it isn't. But, I mean, it's your cards so if you didn't like that version, that's your decision, man.

In the case of these two new suggestions I'd prefer the simpler one, the right one. I don't think it needs the word "too" on it but if you think it does, there should be a comma before it. Both cards seem less interesting to me than your old parliament. Also both are quite similar to Disciple, the right one in particular. I also had a similar idea for a TR-variant that became obsolete with Disciple.

Ehm... Good point, Disciple is really similar. We allready played with it, but i still didn't remember it that good. Maybe i should just give the old version another shot. I guess Zombie just wasn't a very good situation to... um... test in peace.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #284 on: June 24, 2015, 03:33:44 pm »
+3

What time is it? Hammer? Goofy? Adventure? No! It's Asper's CardsTM update time!



1st, i finally found art to put on my very-much-about-name card "Iron Maiden". I wouldn't feel comfortable without pointing out that Sir Peebles had a very similar idea at practically the same time i had this one (a long time ago), and i guess it's apparent why - the card is about the pun, and the pun obviously demands an "Ironworks type" attack - which in turn is something you can only implement in so many different ways. His gave a different bonus when played, though.



It's absurdly much text, but really not that complicated. The only choice you make is the bonus you take (which is why i put it at the start of the card - you don't want people to believe they should wait for others to discard before making up their mind), and the attack is just "random" junking.



Parliament is back, for now. I still have to decide how i want it to interact with cost reducers, but i'll give it another try.
Edit: I'm talking about the older concept of playing cheaper cards more often than more expensive cards, as the versions i posted somewhere these days were pretty much Disciple:



Version one cares about cost reduction, version 2 (mostly) doesn't.



For Road, i'll try a version that doesn't automatically return to your hand but instead trades another card for itself. This might actually reduce the "Too many Roads" element, as you can always just discard them, but either ways should help as a nerf. It's not exactly pretty, but still relatively simple.





Sultan now costs $4. I recently beat Co0kieL0rd all too easily using one of his cards to get an early Province and from then on drowned in Golds (we actually ended the game when we noticed that all VP cards in the supply wouldn't be enough for him to beat me). I'm not sure how much Sultan is to blame for this, the other card was pretty strong, but i feel that since you don't want to open with it, anyhow ("What about Fool's Gold?"), it's okay. I certainly feel a bit more comfortable about a potential Gold gainer to cost $4, and hey, people won't complain about how he's better than Explorer, anymore. If it turns out to become too niche this way, i'll put all the blame on Co0kieL0rd and his card and act as if a price of $4 never happened.



Yes, that sounds like a plan...



My art from Politician is back on a new card named Manufacturer. I wanted to name this one "Factory", but Factories are a bit too modern. And yes, the cost reduction of course means you can immediately gain a card with a $5 written on it.
Edit: Probably the version with the Bridge wording is more clear, see below.





Phew, i'm not used to writing this kind of long "let me explain how amazing my cards are" posts... I hope you had fun, please tune in next time. What time? Asper's CardsTM update time!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 05:04:37 pm by Asper »
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GendoIkari

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #285 on: June 24, 2015, 03:44:06 pm »
+4

Iron Maiden is the perfect example of a card that can contain a whole lot of text, because as soon as you read it once you don't need to re-read each word each time you play it.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #286 on: June 24, 2015, 03:59:44 pm »
+1

Iron Maiden is the perfect example of a card that can contain a whole lot of text, because as soon as you read it once you don't need to re-read each word each time you play it.

I'm very glad you think this :)
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #287 on: June 24, 2015, 04:06:26 pm »
+2

To a casual player, I don't think it's obvious whether the cost reduction happens before the gaining on Manufacturer.  Actually, it's not obvious to me either.  I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?  So the gaining happens first?  You'll probably want to find a wording that makes it really clear.  I think it's a pretty nice idea though.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #288 on: June 24, 2015, 04:08:39 pm »
+2

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #289 on: June 24, 2015, 04:20:19 pm »
+1

The Parliament is dead. Long live the Parliamentses.



Convincing.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #290 on: June 24, 2015, 04:27:56 pm »
+1

I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?

No.
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #291 on: June 24, 2015, 04:38:08 pm »
+1

To a casual player, I don't think it's obvious whether the cost reduction happens before the gaining on Manufacturer.  Actually, it's not obvious to me either.  I think you play a card before it's actually in play right?  So the gaining happens first?  You'll probably want to find a wording that makes it really clear.  I think it's a pretty nice idea though.

The original card used Bridge's wording, which made the thing clear but of course meant Manufacturer was throneable. Do you think that would be better?

Hmm... Maybe it is. Not everybody is a fds member or would (hypothetically) read a(n) FAQ.

Edit: Here is the alternative:

« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 04:44:19 pm by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #292 on: June 24, 2015, 04:49:56 pm »
+1

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?

Co0kieL0rd and i played a game recently where we had the feeling that if you gained a few Towns without Roads and only 1-2 Roads, it totally was enough to draw your deck. Maybe the nerf is too harsh, but at least current Road can - in the right deck - be a monster. And as Town always puts that deck in reach, a nerf seems to be the thing to go for. The current nerf is the one that felt the most natural to me - Road now is a Moat that allows you to turn one card in your hand into another Road.

Hey, Moat-Road. That even sounds similar. Yay, totally intended!
« Last Edit: June 24, 2015, 04:51:17 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #293 on: June 24, 2015, 05:53:15 pm »
+2

The nerf to road seems a bit too harsh?

Co0kieL0rd and i played a game recently where we had the feeling that if you gained a few Towns without Roads and only 1-2 Roads, it totally was enough to draw your deck. Maybe the nerf is too harsh, but at least current Road can - in the right deck - be a monster. And as Town always puts that deck in reach, a nerf seems to be the thing to go for. The current nerf is the one that felt the most natural to me - Road now is a Moat that allows you to turn one card in your hand into another Road.

Hey, Moat-Road. That even sounds similar. Yay, totally intended!

Myeah. I am just sad because the previous version was hard to make work but was balls-to-the-wall crazy when it did. This version just isn't as exciting.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #294 on: June 25, 2015, 05:14:11 am »
0

Small update after another game Co0kieL0rd vs me:

LastFootnote's Gamblers is a cantrip trasher and insanely strong. I lost the game where it appeared because i didn't go for it immediately. When i did, i played it once as a one-shot Lab. Well, it might also have not helped my cause to try attacking Co0kieL0rd with Haunted Woods when the board had Manufacturer and Alms...

Manufacturer is absurdly good. If you don't think the first one played during your turn is at least on par with Altar, the second or third will make you realize why it is amazingly strong. And that's not even considering #4 can gain Provinces. I'm considering either costing it at $7 or, preferrably, give it some kind of penalty on gain/buy. It's certainly the most "Prosperity" card i have.

Iron Maiden's on-play effect is not much fun. It's balanced the way it is now, but Co0kieL0rd didn't really have room for it in his engine and i decided to go for Haunted Woods instead (which was totally a mistake). I might make it discard the top card of your own deck for an appropriate bonus (which somehow was exactly what Co0kieL0rd immediately wanted to do when playing it the first time) or give it a standard bonus. I also considered letting it choose bonuses according to one of the discarded cards ("Choose one of the discarded cards. If it is...") but obviously this makes it more reliable in multiplayer games - not exactly "reliable", though, so it might work.

We only played a single game of Road until now, so we might playtest it soon to see whether pacovf is right and it shouldn't be nerfed (as harshly). :)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #295 on: June 29, 2015, 07:59:26 pm »
+5

Man, man, my cards are too expensive... Here are two ideas.



One, Fountain, is a very old thing. I wanted to cost it at $2, but that would allow people to gain two of them each turn (edit: on opening turns), and also pushing them to $3 made it easier to justify the +3 Actions. At some point in its life cycle, this topdecked the new card and only allowed to gain a card with a different name than the returned card.

For Decree, i DID consider costing it at $2, but then i decided the "drawback" would be an advantage often enough to cost it equally to Silver. At the very least, if you have no unplayable cards in hand, you can play a single Decree last. It also helps mitigate Terminal collisions. Which Treasure can say that about itself?

Also, bonus card:



Not sure whether "potentially double-Village, potentially double-Ruined-Village" is any fun, though.
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 08:36:35 pm by Asper »
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #296 on: June 29, 2015, 10:22:16 pm »
+5

OK, it's official: Asper is my favorite card designer (who isn't me or Donald).

I really like Fountain's bottom, and it's top seems like a decent match. Depending on the $2 cards, you might want to think twice about converting those Estates too early.

I would definitely test Decree at $2; you can always change it to $3 if it doesn't work out.

Sunken City looks unique and interesting. Shades of Herald, obviously, but definitely different enough. (The fact that the text is all at the top of the text box irks me.)
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #297 on: June 30, 2015, 03:25:20 am »
+3

OK, it's official: Asper is my favorite card designer (who isn't me or Donald).

This coming from you is a great honor to me. :)
I'll try my best to keep up with it.

I would definitely test Decree at $2; you can always change it to $3 if it doesn't work out.

Sunken City looks unique and interesting. Shades of Herald, obviously, but definitely different enough. (The fact that the text is all at the top of the text box irks me.)

The decision between $3 and $2 was mostly a matter of taste. I figured experienced players would usually be able to actively improve their deck using Decree, and more than with just Silver. But i understand why $2 seems more appropriate - to less experienced players, it's going to look like a bad drawback, and the price difference isn't big enough to make much of a difference for experienced players anyhow. I'll put it at $2.

Oops, i knew something was looking odd there. Will fix.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:27:30 am by Asper »
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Asper

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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #298 on: June 30, 2015, 04:22:41 am »
0

As i mentioned earlier, Manufacturer is a beast. Or, Minister is, because CL thought Manufacturer was just as bad a name as Factory due to anachronis... anachronismity(?). So now, it's Minister. Here are two standard ideas for nerfs:



And, as i considered bringing back Vampire in a less "fantasy" and more "Prosperity-like" look, anyway, i'm also thinking about this other solution:



There are things i like about the last solution, like salvaging my approach to a "self-curser", or that it doesn't change how the card plays (the other two do in in more than one way, each, which i think might make them unreasonably harsh). Still, it also makes the card more complex and it's certainly not a "tailor-made" solution. I'll playtest them all, if i can.
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Re: Asper's Cards
« Reply #299 on: June 30, 2015, 10:00:20 am »
+2

Yay, new cards :D And really cool ideas, too! With these additions, your whole compilation of cards might be my favourite (after my own set) as well.

Fountain reminds me of a certain other card we are developing together ;) The on-buy bonus is a neat idea and makes possible some unique combos, I would think.

Funnily enough, my initial thought was, Decree might even cost $4 but that's probably out of scale. I like it at $3; $2 would seem too cheap to me.

Sunken City is also very cool. I can't wait to test all these with you ;)

As for Minister, you know I prefer an on-gain "penalty", and you also know I dislike this VP-stuff for other players. I was hoping you would come up with something that makes gaining a Minister more challenging, like Grand Market's penalty. Or are you satisfied with this solution?

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