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[liopoil]

why not? you said: "I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this". I just showed that I thought of this before I got my role PM.

Shraeye said it DOES mitigate his statement.

oh wow, duhh. I missread his post



So this is kind of interesting..... if volt is town, then  the flavor name that's relevant isn't the tracker/vig's, and it also probably isn't the pschologist-detective either, because they would probably be the cop!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I feel like this needs pointing out.

We have two possible situations here:

A) Voltaire is scum, lying about being Tracker/Vigilante.
In this case, it's good that someone said the real one shouldn't claim, but when the flip happens, we obviously know we can't trust anything Volt said, it was all just pointless mindgames full of misdirection.  So the twilight was worthless, and always would have been.

B) Voltaire is town, telling the truth.
In this case Robz and Liopoil have wasted time in twilight rather than Voltaire.  Pointing out that if he were scum, he could be messing with us doesn't help if he is scum, because we'd all figure that out soon anyway, but it actually hurts us if he is town because we spent time arguing about it.  And because it allowed Robz and Liopoil to make a decent amount of posts without contributing anything, but trying to look towny.

So either they don't help, or they waste town's time in what could have been a useful twilight.  I'd agree with Liopoil that it always makes sense for scum to waste our time by fake-claiming, but I'd also argue that it always makes sense for town to take these claims as real until proven otherwise.  Either we throw out the days where scum lied, or we waste all the days.  I know which one is obviously better.

This twilight is a waste if Volt is scum, one way or another, but if he's town, it only becomes a waste if we don't believe him and don't take the opportunity to talk anything through while he's still around and this day is still fresh in our minds.  Besides, how often is scum lynched on Day 1?  1/3 of the time?  Seems like we should believe his claim and make use of the time as if it were true, and if he is lying, well we throw it out and we're right back where we were if we'd wasted the twilight anyway.

[liopoil]

umbrage, what do you have in mind for us to discuss?

[mcmcsalot]

Umbrage, there one reason your wrong.

Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.

So noone can possibly be holding us back from having a productive twilight, other than volt deciding not to talk to us.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I don't have any particular agenda, and hey the flavorname thing you just brought up is something (I was typing my post when you posted that) but I more meant that it seemed like we were getting sidetracked by a waste of time as I was reading and thinking about the use of twilight so far.

Also, I'd like to say that I think this is another scummy move from Robz in particular.

I've been seeing a lot of things I think were scummy from him, but it seems most people (other than Chairs at one point, before his gut did a 180 for unexplainable reasons and I think TA at one point) seem to be finding Robz towny or null and not really addressing this other with their guts.

Let's talk about Robz.  (Although "what did you have in mind for us to discuss" is kind of a weak thing to say in a game that we solve only through discussion.  I mean, if we all wait around for someone to post an agenda, doesn't that just mean scum auto-wins?  Is that what's been going on with all the lurking?)

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Umbrage, there one reason your wrong.

Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.

So noone can possibly be holding us back from having a productive twilight, other than volt deciding not to talk to us.

Did you read my post?
1) I'm saying Robz and Liopoil helped to sidetrack our discussion.  If you don't believe conversation can be manipulated and sidetracked,you don't pay enough attention to how debates/politics/diplomacy/Diplomacy/etc work.
2) This was a daystart game and he says he's a tracker/vigilante!  What could he possibly know, other than his reads which he's posted?  He was talking quite a bit, but what was he supposed to respond to in these last few hours?
3) My whole point is that trying to doubleguess whether he's town or not IS POINTLESS.  You think he is scum.  Fine.  But if he is scum, well we weren't going to be any more productive in questioning him, post-morteming this day than we would be doing it at the start of Day 2.  IF HE IS TOWN, we're missing that chance!  This reads like you're so sure he's scum that you don't care about that chance?

How can you be so sure, based on your gut and a policy-vote?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

More importantly, chairs, what is the point of you saying I'm wrong by arguing he is scum?  My whole post was saying IT DOESN'T MATTER IF HE'S SCUM OR NOT.

[Robz888]

I don't have any particular agenda, and hey the flavorname thing you just brought up is something (I was typing my post when you posted that) but I more meant that it seemed like we were getting sidetracked by a waste of time as I was reading and thinking about the use of twilight so far.

Also, I'd like to say that I think this is another scummy move from Robz in particular.

I've been seeing a lot of things I think were scummy from him, but it seems most people (other than Chairs at one point, before his gut did a 180 for unexplainable reasons and I think TA at one point) seem to be finding Robz towny or null and not really addressing this other with their guts.

Let's talk about Robz.  (Although "what did you have in mind for us to discuss" is kind of a weak thing to say in a game that we solve only through discussion.  I mean, if we all wait around for someone to post an agenda, doesn't that just mean scum auto-wins?  Is that what's been going on with all the lurking?)

I don't think I did this at all. I was just saying, there is a good reason for Volt to continue to lie after being lynched--he could get someone who isn't paying a lot of attention to counterclaim him.

I don't know whether he is telling the truth or not. We will soon see.

We are of course free to discuss things. I'm not stopping anyone from discussing things.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

But Robz, you're on a lot, why have you seemed so disinterested in contributing to discussion yourself?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Let me put it this way: Mcmcsalot defended you by saying you thought you were bad at town.  Some of the players that have played with you think you don't post much as town but post a lot as scum.  Someone else (TA?) said he thought you were trying to change your metagame or something.

If you want to help as town, why contribute so sparsely, and so often away from the central scum/not scum/what does scumminess really mean/etc type arguments?

I should go back and do a complete reread of you, but it seems like you mostly have slight, not terribly content-filled posts, and often about matters of policy rather than about the actual game and the hunt for scum.  You do have some occasional sheepings, and that one post where, after days of people nagging you, you expanded on TA's case on Volt by basically restating it and alluding to other examples you never linked and never responded to me nagging you about not finding.

You did a lot to push the Voltaire wagon, without seeming to do much of anything.  It seems talented, but not in a pro-town way.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, CHAIRS, why are you so sure Voltaire is scum?  And why does you thinking that mean I'm wrong that we shouldn't bother talking about whether or not he is?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?

(And if you flip scum, I can spend the rest of the game secondguessing my secondgusses, yay!)

[chairs]

Also, CHAIRS, why are you so sure Voltaire is scum?  And why does you thinking that mean I'm wrong that we shouldn't bother talking about whether or not he is?

I don't know what (post-twilight and his post-hammer claim) I said that made you think I'm sure Volt is scum at this point.

I am willing to suspend disbelief and take him at his word at this point.  I'm just intrigued at the concept of twilight being used to tweak night actions/the next day (as the games I've been in have been no-twilight games, effectively).

[Voltaire]

VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?

Can you let me know what thoughts you want answers to?

Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.

So you're just choosing to ignore, like, the 39,302 posts I gave after my hammer with my thoughts, reads, etc.? And my offer to answer any questions asked of me?

This kind of post by you is exactly why I get frustrated. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.

Ash and mcmc have been very anti-town. Don't know if it makes them scum, but it means they're making it harder for town to win.

[chairs]

Snow: In fact, see this:

I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).

Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?

I guess how we proceed D2 should really depend on tonight's kill.

(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help.  That or calling them useless.  People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating.  And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything.  At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort.  I should probably just shut up now.  I post too fucking much anyway.  I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)

Snow, you're playing a great game. Keep it up.

Agreed.

If you're interpreting that as "NYUU VOLT IS A LYING MCLIARSON" then I don't know what to say.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Forgive me Chairs, I had you confused with MCMCSALOT'S post.

[Voltaire]

VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?

Ah, I see the second part of your sentence is the question.

Yes, Robz is scummier for it. You'll note I voted for Robz during D1. If we had another chance to vote I wouldn't mind lynching Robz. And your theory of twilight is correct, and I posted it above - ignore everything I say if I flip scum, but when I flip town be glad to had the chance to talk to me!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Revised to account for my own derp:
More importantly, MCMCSALOT, what is the point of you saying I'm wrong by arguing he is scum?  My whole post was saying it doesn't matter if Volt is scum or not.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?

Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?

A) Robz
B) Mcmcsalot
C) Chairs
D) TwistedArcher
E) Ashersky
F) Shraeye

I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward.  Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.

And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)

[Robz888]

Let me put it this way: Mcmcsalot defended you by saying you thought you were bad at town.  Some of the players that have played with you think you don't post much as town but post a lot as scum.  Someone else (TA?) said he thought you were trying to change your metagame or something.

Mcmc is correct. I post a lot as town and a lot as scum, and indeed, my post count is above average here. Don't know about that TA thing.

If you want to help as town, why contribute so sparsely, and so often away from the central scum/not scum/what does scumminess really mean/etc type arguments?

I am not contributing sparsely. I have been expressing opinions on people for whom my opinions are concrete enough to be worthy of expression. I have given opinions on Volt and chairs and ashersky and liopoil. My thinking is that lurkers should have been our targets.

I should go back and do a complete reread of you, but it seems like you mostly have slight, not terribly content-filled posts, and often about matters of policy rather than about the actual game and the hunt for scum.  You do have some occasional sheepings, and that one post where, after days of people nagging you, you expanded on TA's case on Volt by basically restating it and alluding to other examples you never linked and never responded to me nagging you about not finding.

I don't remember people nagging me for days; I remember you nagging me. And it wasn't for days; when I read that you wanted an explanation, I gave one.

When I do it, it's not sheeping.

Long posts are actively unhelpful.

You did a lot to push the Voltaire wagon, without seeming to do much of anything.  It seems talented, but not in a pro-town way.

Okay.

[Voltaire]

Added my thoughts to your quote.

Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?

Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?

A) Robz - played with in every game except the one he modded. His play has been similar to before. Those times he was scum 2 times, town 1 time
B) Mcmcsalot - never played with
C) Chairs - played with once, has been scummier this game
D) TwistedArcher - never played with
E) Ashersky - played with a long time ago. I don't remember him being the kind of person to go "I AM A MAFIA GOD" like he did here.
F) Shraeye - never played with

I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward.  Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.

And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)

Sorry that's not very helpful!

[Voltaire]

Added my thoughts to your quote.

B) Mcmcsalot - played with once, he was very very scummy but was town.

Corrected mcmc

[Robz888]

Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?

Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?

A) Robz
B) Mcmcsalot
C) Chairs
D) TwistedArcher
E) Ashersky
F) Shraeye

I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward.  Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.

And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)

Volt is not, by the way, any sort of expert on veteran play. He was in like two games before he disappeared.

I have played every game.
Eevee has played almost every game.
Jimm, shraeye, raerae, ashersky, and mcmcsalot have played a whole lot of games.
Liopoil has played a decent amount.
Everyone else is relatively new.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well yeah, I'm getting that he might not have much insight now.  But my reason for asking Volt wasn't that I was assuming he was an expert, it was that in a few hours we'll know if he was town or not, and if he is town, it means his opinions are at the very least not scum manipulation: something I can't be absolutely sure of with anyone.

So yeah, that wasn't as helpful as I was hoping, but I don't think it was pointless to ask.

[Robz888]

Well yeah, I'm getting that he might not have much insight now.  But my reason for asking Volt wasn't that I was assuming he was an expert, it was that in a few hours we'll know if he was town or not, and if he is town, it means his opinions are at the very least not scum manipulation: something I can't be absolutely sure of with anyone.

So yeah, that wasn't as helpful as I was hoping, but I don't think it was pointless to ask.

You seem to me really confident that Volt will flip town. And maybe at this point you are trying a bit too hard to look like Mr. Townie.