Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: yuma on June 12, 2013, 10:11:40 am
-
I am opening this game up for signups now because I have time to put everything together. This game will not start until either Mean Girls or Simple Game is finished.
Welcome to Clue Mafia
Player Roster
1. Robz Night Killed Night2; Vanilla Townie, Miss Scarlet
2. raerae Mafia Goon; The Cook
3. liopoil Lynched Day5; Mafia Goon, Yvette the Maid
4. twistedarcher Lynched Day4; Town Psycholgist, Col. Mustard
5. shraeye Night Killed Night1; Vanilla Townie, Professor Plum
6. Eevee Night Killed Night 4; Vanilla Townie, The Mechanic
7. Voltaire Lynched Day1; Town Tracker/Vigilante, The Cop
8. UmbrageOfSnow Night Killed Night1; Town Hider, Mrs. Peacock
9. Jimmmm Endgamed; Vanilla Townie; Mr. Boddy
10. nkirbit lynched Day2; Mafia Goon; Wadsworth the Butler
11. chairs Night Killed Night6; Vanilla Townie; Mrs. White
12. mcmcsalot Night Killed Night4; Vanilla Townie; Mr. Green
13. ashersky Endgamed; Vanilla Townie, The Singing Telegram Girl
Possible back-ups:
Galz
Archetype
Day Starts:
Day1 Page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268060;topicseen#msg268060)
Day2 Page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.1050)
Day3 Page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.1150)
Day4 Page (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.new#new)
New info will have a * next to it
f.ds Mafia Ruleset
The Golden Rule:
Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun! Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.
Please read The Civility Pledge (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=7695.0) before signing up for this game. If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.
Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.
General Gameplay and Etiquette:
1. You may not quote private Moderator-supplied information (either real or fabricated) of any kind. Paraphrasing (for role claims, etc.) is acceptable.
2. Personal communication outside of the forum postings is NOT ALLOWED unless your Role PM specifically allows it. For example, Mafia members may communicate at night and during the confirmation stage in their specified QT.
3. If you have a role with a Night action, your choices are due to the moderator by the posted deadline (generally 48 hours from Night start during the first few Nights; later Nights may have shorter deadlines). If we do not receive your choice via PM by the posted deadline you will forfeit your actions. In case of multiple submissions, the last valid one before the deadline will be used. Generally, one team member may submit the Night Actions for all team members.
*4. Every player will be required to PM at the end of a day to confirm that they acknowledge the start of day. If a player has not responded to this after 24 hours, then a PM will be sent asking for acknowledgement. If still no PM has been received after 48 hours, the start of day will be delayed and a replacement for the missing player(s) will be begun.
5. Roles with Night actions will not be able to submit an action on Night 0 (i.e. during the confirmation stage).
6. Any player with a Night action may instead submit a “No Action” PM to let the Mods know that you do not want to perform your expected action that Night phase.
*7. As a general rule you should aim for one post every 24 hours, minimum, to keep the game moving. Dropping out of this game or disappearing without warning or apology (except in the event of serious emergencies) is extremely frowned upon. Doing so will forfeit said player the right to participate in future games hosted by yuma
* 8. If a player in the past abandoned a game they may or may not be allowed to participate in this game. The mod will communicate with said player to determine if this game will be suitable for them to play and to ensure that it will be made a commitment.
Voting, Deadlines, and Player Death:
1. A simple majority (rounded up) of all living members must agree on one person for a lynch to occur prior to deadline.
2. Once you have reached a simple majority no further unvoting will change someone’s fate. Further votes will also be ignored.
3. Once a player is lynched the game enters twilight until I post a death scene; all players including the one who was lynched may continue to post during twilight.
*4. The only person permitted to lock this thread is yuma. No one else may do so (except in the, hopefully unlikely, situation where the Civility Pledge has been broken) and as such twilight may extend for a long time. A back-up mod, mail-mi, will be able to provide vote counts. In the even that I am away from the Internet for an extended period of time I may ask mail-mi to lock the thread in my absence (I will post this notification in thread if this occurs.) A long twilight is intentional as I think twilights are fun. Twilights will last for at least 2 hours guaranteed.
5. Please submit votes as: Vote: PlayerName. Votes will NOT be counted if they are not bold or do not follow this syntax! Obvious abbreviations or nicknames will be counted so long as they are unambiguous.
6. Please submit vote revocations as either Unvote: PlayerName or Unvote. Unvotes are not necessary before changing votes.
7. You may Vote: No Lynch - a simple majority of these vote types are required to send the game to Night phase without a lynch.
8. Once you are killed (either via lynch or night kill) you may no longer post in the game or in Quicktopics, except for twilight. This means that you do not even get a “Bah” post. The dead in this game are silent, but will be invited to the Spectator Quicktopic.
*9. Do not edit or delete posts. We don't want some players having more information than others. If you want to clarify posts, feel free to double post. Mods will not edit posts for you.
10. This game will have hard 10-day deadlines.
Miscellaneous/Mechanics:
1. Bold, brown text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
2. If you have an issue/problem with the game, please PM the Mods privately. Do not post issues/complaints in the game thread.
3. The Mods may make mistakes - please point out any mistakes gently. Mistakes will be corrected where possible, but sometimes mistakes are made that cannot be reversed. These will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. Please bold all requests to the Mods so that they don’t get missed.
5. Prods of missing players will be issued automatically after 48 hours of no activity or upon request after 24 hours of no activity. A prodded player has 48 hours to respond or risks replacement. A player who has been prodded 2 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
6. Rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, up to and including a Modkill.
7. If you anticipate being unavailable for more than a 48-hour period please post a notice to that effect in the thread. Treat this game as a commitment. Be considerate – don’t leave us hanging.
Helpful Links:
--Main Wiki Page (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page)
--Newbie Guide (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide)
--Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=FAQ)
--Commonly Used Abbreviations (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Commonly_used_abbreviations)
--Mafia Theory (http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Theory)
TO CLARIFY, I AM A MODERATOR OF F.DS, BUT ONLY IN THE DOMINION TOURNAMENT SECTION. IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS GAME, I AM MODERATING THAT THE RULES ARE FOLLOWED AND HIDDEN ACTIONS ARE COMPLETED PROPERLY.
GAME SET-UP AND ROLES LISTED IN NEXT POST
-
Game Setup
All players will be assigned a flavor name from the following:
1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock
This flavor name will be a character from the Movie Clue. One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
This game will be open, using the Hard Boiled setup (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Hard_Boiled).
There will be a total of thirteen players, consisting of:
- 3 Mafia Goons
- 7 Vanilla Townies
- 1 Tracker/Vigilante
- 1 Hider
- 1 Detective or Psychologist (Determined Randomly)
Mechanics:
- Daystart
- The Tracker/Vigilante chooses on Night 1 which role they would like to be.
- The Hider dies if it hides with a Mafia Goon or a Vigilante, or if the person it hides behind dies.
- The Detective targets a player and finds out if that player has killed another player or not.
- The Psychologist targets a player and finds out if they have the potential to kill, but if the player has already killed, the psychologist will get a negative result.
- The Tracker/Vigilante will choose their role while at the same time choosing who they will target Night1. In addition these two choices will be performed after The Detective/Psychologist has performed his investigation, meaning that at the time of the Psychologist/Detective's investigation the Tracker/Vigilante still has the "potential" to kill.
The following mechanic rules apply:
- Kill flavor will NOT be a CLUE (see what I did there?) to the identity of the killer.
- Roles that target another player at night may NOT self-target, unless specified.
- Night actions will be processed in order of "natural action resolution" (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Natural_action_resolution). This means that:
1. All actions that cannot possibly be modified by any other actions are resolved FIRST.
2. After those actions are resolved, step 1 is repeated for any remaining actions, until all actions are resolved.
3. If there is a loop - e.g., Player X's action affects Player Y's action, which affects Player Z's action, which affects Player X's action - then actions will be resolved in the following order of priority:
- Hiding
- Killing
- Investigating
Note: Town and Mafia are known as Party Guests and Mafia Party Guests in this game.
There may be a CLUE board game style mini-game added into this game. I am currently brain-storming ideas for ways to do this that don't distract too much from the mafia game itself and isn't too much work for me, your lazy mod. I'll keep you updated on whether or not this is going to happen. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Role PMs
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are a Mafia goon, along with Y and Z. You have the following abilities:
-Factional communication: You may talk with your mafia partners at [quicktopic link goes here] during night phases and before the start of day one.
-Factional kill: Every night, one living member of the mafia may PM me with the name of someone who you want to kill, as well as who you want to be the killer (if no killer is specified, I will assume that the person sending the PM is the killer). That person will die unless in some way protected.
Win condition: You win when all members of the town are dead and at least one member of the mafia is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are a Vanilla Townie. You have no special abilities.
Win condition: you win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are the Tracker/Vigilante. You have the following abilities:
-Decision: on night one, you must choose whether you want to be a tracker or a vigilante. You will remain this role for the duration of the game.
-Tracker: if you choose tracker on night one, then on every night (including night one) you may PM me the name of someone who you want to track. I will return a PM telling you who that person targeted that night, or that they targeted no one.
-Vigilante: if you choose vigilante on night one, then on every night (including night one) you may PM me a name of someone who you want to kill. That person will die, unless in some way protected.
Win condition: you win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are the Hider. You have the following abilities:
-Hide: every night, you may PM me with the name of someone who you want to hide behind. If that player is a member of the mafia or the vigilante, you will die. If the player you hide behind is targeted for a nightkill by the mafia or vigilante that night, you will die. If you are targeted for a nightkill on a night that you hide behind someone else, that nightkill will not affect you.
Win condition: you win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are the Detective. You have the following abilities:
-Investigation: every night, you may PM me the name of someone who you want to investigate. I will return a result indicating whether or not that player has killed another player at night on any night, including the night that your action was submitted.
Win condition: you win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
{OR}
Welcome to CLUE Mafia, X. You are the Psychologist. You have the following abilities:
-Diagnosis: every night, you may PM me wit the name of someone who you want to diagnose. I will return a result indicating whether or not that player has the capability to kill another player at night. If they have already killed another player, or kill another player on the night you diagnose them, they will lie to you so you will be told that they do not have the capability to kill.
Win condition: you win when all mafia members are dead and at least one town member is alive, or nothing can prevent the same.
Please confirm via PM by stating your role.
-
/tag
I will /in only if Simple Mafia finishes before this game (and if there's a spot still open). Love the setup, Yuma!
-
/tag. I'm struggling to see why someone would choose Vigilante.
-
Because Vig is great. But honestly, I haven't read anything yet.
-
In.
-
I am intrigued. I'll watch sign ups and join if it doesn't fill. Otherwise (and for now), /tag.
-
/in oh my gosh I need to check the new topics more often I guess, I missed a blitz :((((
-
/something
-
/tag.
I don't want to be in both back to basics and this at the same time.. but if I die early there, I'd be interested in this.
-
/in!
interesting setup. I can't decide if it's a good idea for the hider to hide or not. It might sometimes be a good idea to declare who you're hiding behind, maybe. That's like a really weakened vigilante. Also can't decide which of detective/psychologist is better. and if scum should have the same person do the kill each night. Or which PR the tracker/vig should choose.
man, this setup is cool! choices!
-
Everything in me wants to play this game but I'm moving across the damn country in July so I'm only going tag and, as always, be available to sub.
-
Everything in me wants to play this game but I'm moving across the damn country in July so I'm only going tag and, as always, be available to sub.
You are like a sub-hero!
-
Everything in me wants to play this game but I'm moving across the damn country in July so I'm only going tag and, as always, be available to sub.
You are like a sub-hero!
I have a cape and everything.
-
I am in every game... I really want to in but I'll just /tag for now.
-
a few more tags and we will have enough to start up a 13 player tag-only game....
-
a few more tags and we will have enough to start up a 13 player tag-only game....
Maybe it would help if people had an anticipated start date?
-
a few more tags and we will have enough to start up a 13 player tag-only game....
Maybe it would help if people had an anticipated start date?
oh... it isn't a big deal.... Like I said, I just opened the signups because I had some time that I could spend writing everything up.
I just think it is funny. Start date? Probably 2 weeksish?
-
a few more tags and we will have enough to start up a 13 player tag-only game....
Maybe it would help if people had an anticipated start date?
oh... it isn't a big deal.... Like I said, I just opened the signups because I had some time that I could spend writing everything up.
I just think it is funny. Start date? Probably 2 weeksish?
I was actually just curious :)
-
summer and mafia don't mix so well for me, but I'll probably end up joining at some point..
-
Ok. /in
-
bump. This game will start once we get 13 players (actually that is probably a lie... it probably won't start until Simple Game moves to night phase and no other RMM game is starting at the same time) to signup now that Mean Girls is over.
-
Just what the doctor ordered!
-
Just what the doctor ordered!
Ha... I see what you did there... doctor... Ha...
-
Just what the doctor ordered!
Ha... I see what you did there... doctor... Ha...
I knew you'd be watching my posts carefully!
-
Just what the doctor ordered!
Ha... I see what you did there... doctor... Ha...
I knew you'd be watching my posts carefully!
Grumble grumble.
-
aiya!
-
aiya!
is this an /in. I am assuming it is. If it isn't let me know.
is this:
Just what the doctor ordered!
Ditto to above
-
I really shouldn't but I really want to /in, put me as tentative for now.
-
/in, if that's okay with you.
This will be my first Mafia game on f.ds! I have played before elsewhere though, so I'm not an idiot. Also, I play a lot of Diplomacy.
-
/in, if that's okay with you.
This will be my first Mafia game on f.ds! I have played before elsewhere though, so I'm not an idiot. Also, I play a lot of Diplomacy.
great to have you. four more players needed.
-
I have played before elsewhere though, so I'm not an idiot.
Implying that anyone who doesn't play Mafia is an idiot? :P
Also, welcome.
Also, I'll probably join a game soon. It might be this one.
-
I have played before elsewhere though, so I'm not an idiot.
Implying that anyone who doesn't play Mafia is an idiot? :P
Also, welcome.
Also, I'll probably join a game soon. It might be this one.
More that I won't start with "Hey guys, it says here I'm a 'doctor'. Is that good?"
I'm not some expert or anything, and the forum setting is new to me, I've usually played in person.
No, if I was going to accuse someone of being an idiot for not liking what I like, it'd be those people that don't like Dominion. ;D
Also, please join this one. The wait to start is killing me, and I haven't even been waiting very long, unlike everyone else.
-
Games usually are in sign-ups for a few weeks...
-
/tag
-
I have played before elsewhere though, so I'm not an idiot.
Implying that anyone who doesn't play Mafia is an idiot? :P
Also, welcome.
Also, I'll probably join a game soon. It might be this one.
More that I won't start with "Hey guys, it says here I'm a 'doctor'. Is that good?"
I'm not some expert or anything, and the forum setting is new to me, I've usually played in person.
No, if I was going to accuse someone of being an idiot for not liking what I like, it'd be those people that don't like Dominion. ;D
Also, please join this one. The wait to start is killing me, and I haven't even been waiting very long, unlike everyone else.
I'm convinced. /in
/excited
/been too long
-
Stating intent to hammer if this gets to Full-1.
-
I'm fine with a hammer. Need to get to the next day, that's when the game really begins!
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
Such an amazing movie. It's so, so good.
-
Stating intent to hammer if this gets to Full-1.
Vote: Ashersky for not letting the game claim.
-
I'll join if it's still open mid-July.
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
Such an amazing movie. It's so, so good.
My clue mafia game will be heavily themed and influenced off of that movie.
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
Such an amazing movie. It's so, so good.
My clue mafia game will be heavily themed and influenced off of that movie.
Isn't that what this is?
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
Such an amazing movie. It's so, so good.
My clue mafia game will be heavily themed and influenced off of that movie.
Isn't that what this is?
It certainly was intended to be!
Although if mcmc wants the CLUE theme I suppose I could run my Arrested Development game instead. It is a 9-player so we could start it up basically anytime...
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
Yuma and I are designing Modern Family + Community. I don't have any AD knowledge.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
Yuma and I are designing Modern Family + Community. I don't have any AD knowledge.
That's what the mashup was! That's the one I'll be /in for.
-
I need to be Tim Curry, though.
Such an amazing movie. It's so, so good.
My clue mafia game will be heavily themed and influenced off of that movie.
Isn't that what this is?
It certainly was intended to be!
Although if mcmc wants the CLUE theme I suppose I could run my Arrested Development game instead. It is a 9-player so we could start it up basically anytime...
Oh nonono, I have a specific idea for my game that should make it much different, I was looking forward to this one bein clue themed as well.
-
Hey Yuma, u in need of a comod? I could do that.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
Yuma and I are designing Modern Family + Community. I don't have any AD knowledge.
Oh come on! You haven't watched AD? You've made a huge mistake...
Why haven't you? Are you a chicken? Caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw!
-
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken
Chicken.
Chicken Chicken.
-
Hey Yuma, u in need of a comod? I could do that.
Maybe... I appreciate the offer, but am probably going to go at this alone. I will only need one if I end up being VLA for an extended period of time. I like the idea of having extended twilights so there really isn't a pressing need for one unless I am going to be gone for days as opposed to hours.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
Yuma and I are designing Modern Family + Community. I don't have any AD knowledge.
Oh come on! You haven't watched AD? You've made a huge mistake...
Why haven't you? Are you a chicken? Caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw!
That's not what a chicken sounds like! Has anyone on this forum ever heard a chicken!?!?
Yeah. ashersky.
I haven't seen AD either, but I've heard its good.
-
If ur gonna make it 9 ash can take my spot.
I think ash is comodding that one.
I mayyy /in for AD/MF.
Yuma and I are designing Modern Family + Community. I don't have any AD knowledge.
Oh come on! You haven't watched AD? You've made a huge mistake...
Why haven't you? Are you a chicken? Caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw! Ca-caw!
That's not what a chicken sounds like! Has anyone on this forum ever heard a chicken!?!?
But seriously, I think I am even more excited for the AD game--partially because it will be my first attempt at creating a closed game, and I think it will end up being pretty good, but also a bit on the bizarre side (the normal game side of bizarre, but bizarre nonetheless) of things.
If this doesn't fill in at least 2 weeks, I might pull an ash and sub that in instead, but it isn't quite finished yet and may not be at that point, so we will see...
-
my two cents: I'd prefer this game, because it's open, and I like open setups more than closed setups. Closed setups can have surprises :(
-
my two cents: I'd prefer this game, because it's open, and I like open setups more than closed setups. Closed setups can have surprises :(
yeah... I would prefer to run both! This now and AD later, but I have said before that if a game can't fill up then it probably means that not enough people want to play it and the mod should adapt.
-
Chicken
:o
-
Chicken
:o
:o
-
/out. Sorry Yuma. Looked fun
-
My interpretation of the congruent actions to your chicken
Chicken Chicken (oh what's that...I'll go see)
Chicken Chicken Chicken (walking with purpose...stops)
Chicken (no more purpose)
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken (omg the world is so amazing look at all the crazy things I can do..whilst running and jumping...stop)
Chicken Chicken (oh what's that...ill go see)
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken (walking with purpose...investigates)
Chicken Chicken Chicken (walks somewhere else with purpose...stops)
Chicken (no purpose)
In a car my head hurts can't finish lol. I own two chickens by the way :)
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken Chicken Chicken
Chicken Chicken
Chicken.
Chicken Chicken.
-
I couldn't find this!
/in
-
I couldn't find this!
/in
you didn't follow the CLUEs very well then did you....
-
I couldn't find this!
/in
Horray!
That breaks even with the disappearing ghost bears!
-
There may be a CLUE board game style mini-game added into this game. I am currently brain-storming ideas for ways to do this that don't distract too much from the mafia game itself and isn't too much work for me, your lazy mod. I'll keep you updated on whether or not this is going to happen. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Oh, Yuma, I don't know if you care, if you're still thinking about this, or if this is even along the lines you're looking for, but Black Vienna (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/756/black-vienna) works really well online and with delayed posts in forums.
It's trivially easy to retheme using names of forumites or Dominion cards or something for the letters, or it might be a concept that could work well without stealing the rules exactly. (Also, you don't need to buy it to have everything you need to play it, can just make up each player's assigned cards in PM, look at the files in the BGG link above.)
Obviously this may be way off from what you were looking for, and if so, disregard!
-
black vienna is only a 3-6 player game...
-
4 Spots Open
5 players have said maybe:
voltaire
Galzira
ashersky
nkiribit
raerae
-
well, ashersky said he has the last spot...
-
black vienna is only a 3-6 player game...
Yeah, I guess I didn't think that through, was so caught up in the idea of suggesting something helpful for a mini-game. As-written, there are only 27 suspects with a group of 3 guilty and 36 cards you can use to investigate. If you distributed them too thinly, no one would have enough information to make it worthwhile.
Anyway, the basic concept of how the game works seems like it would be easy to implement, even if it would have to be changed somewhat.
Sorry if this isn't helpful.
-
4 Spots Open
5 players have said maybe:
voltaire
Galzira
ashersky
nkiribit
raerae
man or woman up people!
-
well, ashersky said he has the last spot...
alright three spots open then!
-
I am going to officially /out and /tag, ya know I don't really think I've ever spectated a game w/out playing it. Can I haz speccy?
-
note that I added this piece of information into the second post:
- The Tracker/Vigilante will choose their role while at the same time choosing who they will target Night1. In addition these two choices will be performed after The Detective/Psychologist has performed his investigation, meaning that at the time of the Psychologist/Detective's investigation the Tracker/Vigilante still has the "potential" to kill.
-
note that I added this piece of information into the second post:
- The Tracker/Vigilante will choose their role while at the same time choosing who they will target Night1. In addition these two choices will be performed after The Detective/Psychologist has performed his investigation, meaning that at the time of the Psychologist/Detective's investigation the Tracker/Vigilante still has the "potential" to kill.
I assume that means the Vig does, but not the Tracker? I mean, the Tracker never had the potential.
-
note that I added this piece of information into the second post:
- The Tracker/Vigilante will choose their role while at the same time choosing who they will target Night1. In addition these two choices will be performed after The Detective/Psychologist has performed his investigation, meaning that at the time of the Psychologist/Detective's investigation the Tracker/Vigilante still has the "potential" to kill.
I assume that means the Vig does, but not the Tracker? I mean, the Tracker never had the potential.
If I understand correctly, the Tracker/Vigilante still has potential to kill when he hasn't decided which role he will choose.
-
note that I added this piece of information into the second post:
- The Tracker/Vigilante will choose their role while at the same time choosing who they will target Night1. In addition these two choices will be performed after The Detective/Psychologist has performed his investigation, meaning that at the time of the Psychologist/Detective's investigation the Tracker/Vigilante still has the "potential" to kill.
I assume that means the Vig does, but not the Tracker? I mean, the Tracker never had the potential.
If I understand correctly, the Tracker/Vigilante still has potential to kill when he hasn't decided which role he will choose.
exactly. But only for that part of night1. Once tracker has been picked he no longer has the potential to kill, because he is a tracker and has given up the vigilante killing potential.
-
N1, the hider hides behind a tracker/vigilante.
If the player chooses tracker, the hider survives
If the player chooses vigilante, the hider dies.
Is this correct?
-
Given the pace that B2B is going, and how this game won't actually start for awhile, I think I can confidently /in. If I'm in two games at once it should only be very very brief.
-
three spots open!
-
N1, the hider hides behind a tracker/vigilante.
If the player chooses tracker, the hider survives
If the player chooses vigilante, the hider dies.
Is this correct?
are you in?
-
Got a serious case of the Robz's right now, gotta /out.
-
Sorry, I have to /out
-
Sorry, I have to /out
understandable.
This isn't a threat to try and get more people to play, but if this isn't full in the next ~ weekish. I think I will pull the plug on this.
I will see if people want to do the 9-player arrested development game I have up my sleeve, but if that doesn't fly either I will let EFHW's game take center stage.
-
If it turns into a 9-player game, you can count me as the 9th.
-
Totally in for the AD game.
-
Ok, I'm done having a fit. /In again for whatever game happens :)
-
Clue seems like so much fun, but I'd be in for any game, really. (Other than that bastard one, I am not ready for that kind of thing.)
I hope we still do clue though, it seems like many of the people leaving are saying they are busy rather than that they prefer Arrested Development to Clue theming.
My biggest concern about AD themed game is that all the references I'm certain to find myself making will somehow come across scummy. (See, I'm saying this now, so you know I'm not panicking.)
-
As I said before, I prefer waiting for more people for clue, but it's yuma's call.
-
I want to play both Clue and AD, and since Clue went first, let's do Clue!
-
This game only needs 3 more now, I believe.
-
this needs to fill. galzria? nkirbit? chairs? archetype?
also, if you switch to AD, you'll probably have more than 9 people who want to play.
-
/in.
-
/in
-
That's L-1! Nobody else /in until yuma claims!
-
That's L-1! Nobody else /in until yuma claims!
I claim mod.
-
That's L-1! Nobody else /in until yuma claims!
I claim mod.
Ok. Cool. Somebody else /in so we can put this to the test.
-
/tag. I would /in, but I don't want 2 games going at once. Looks good though
-
Oh boy oh boy someone join! :D
-
Clue seems like so much fun, but I'd be in for any game, really. (Other than that bastard one, I am not ready for that kind of thing.)
It won't be that bad...
Oh boy oh boy someone join! :D
I think ash stated intent to hammer.
-
well ash already stated intent to hammer and so is already included... we still need a person to take the 12th spot.
-
got an upcoming v/la that i have 0 access so i can't. Can I have speccy tho?
-
Re/in cant let it go by.
-
Woooo!
-
Just send me my PM.
-
Thread Locked
PMs Will Be Sent Out Shortly
Please Confirm via PM
-
PMs have been sent out. Day1 will start Friday at 10 a.m. forum time or earlier depending on how quick people confirm their roles
-
All players have confirmed receipt of PM. Day 1 (the giant party at rrenaud's) will start Friday at 10 a.m. forum time.
Let me know via PM if you have any questions about your PM or game rules.
-
Day1 Start
Rrenaud's mansion was creepy. Not creepy like a old haunted mansion might be. But rather creepy like the home a 80-year-old woman with her 50 year-old-son might be. You know... Nothing was clean. The study has a bunch of old magazines stacked in all four corners. The Library had work-out VHS tapes from the 80s. The Billiard Room had been converted into a sketchy photography studio with wayyyyy too many nude portraits of the 80-year-old woman. Baby doll heads were scattered throughout the Ballroom. Just some weird stuff. So as the guests arrived yuma had some cleaning up to do. I know you all imagine him dressed up like a French maid (Pro-tip: he wasn't), but if you want to imagine him that way... Well what goes on in your sick imagination is completely up to you.
The door bell rang. So yuma RAN DOWN THE HALL and found Colonel Mustard and Professor Plum standing in the door way. "Perfect! You are early! You can help me clean," yuma shouted handing them some aprons and brooms. Soon the mansion was clean. Which was good timing as Mrs. White, Wadsworth the Butler, The Mechanic, The Cop, Mr. Green, Miss Scarlett, Yvette the Maid, The Singing Telegram Girl, and The Cook arrived.
"Let's see 2+1+2+1+2+2+2. That is Twelve. We just need one more!"
"No, that's 2+1+1+1+2+2+1+1. That is Eleven. We need two more! You numbskull..."
"Hmmm... very well then."
"While we wait, let's eat! Monkey brain soup is on the menu!
As the guests sat down to eat the door bell rang again. This time there was Mr. Boddy and Mrs. Peacock. Making a full 13 guests!
As the last two guests sat around the table yuma went to serve the food in the Kitchen. But he never came back. "Where did he go," the guests asked each other. They went and looked in the kitchen, but he wasn't to be found there. "We need to split up!" someone suggested.
And with that Day1 Begins
-
1.1. Vote Count
Not voting: (13) Voltaire, chairs, UmbarageOfSnow, Twistedarcher, Eevee, Robz, mcmcsalot, liopoil, Jimmmmm, shraeye, raerae, ashersky, nkirbit
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
Thread Unlocked
-
Hello everyone! This game has been underway for three minutes and I already have Tim Curry's voice stuck in my head.
-
Hi everyone, blah blah RVS blah blah.
Here's what I really want to talk about, I thought about this during signups and stuff:
Hider seems like a really interesting role. Either he makes an IC, or he dies behind a mafia / vigilante. Of course, if he dies behind a mafia / vigilante, that's useless for town unless we knew who he was hiding behind.
Would it be beneficial for town if, before the end of the day, everyone posted a list of who they would hide behind, if they were the hider? With everyone saying this, there would be 10 townies saying who they'd hide behind, if they were the hider. This would hopefully be enough to give scum little information on who the hider was. Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list. This has the advantage of covering the hider's tracks better, but probably makes it harder to find a scum to hide behind.
I just feel that if Hider hides behind scum N1, without a way for us to figure out who that scum is, Hider potentially becomes a negative-utility role. If hider dies N1, though, we can look at our list, and work backwards to see who he hid behind, and know that that person is more than likely scum.
I've never played with hider before, so maybe this has been tried before and proven to be a terrible idea, but I don't think it is.
-
Goodness gracious some of those names are hard to read. Any thoughts on name claiming?
For now I'm just happy to be playing again and glad that I don't have to worry about being scum on my first game back.
-
Goodness gracious some of those names are hard to read. Any thoughts on name claiming?
For now I'm just happy to be playing again and glad that I don't have to worry about being scum on my first game back.
One of the names will have meaning on alignment/role - so I don't see any value in giving scum that information right now.
I could totally see it making sense later.
-
Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list.
Can you clarify what you're saying here?
-
Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list.
Can you clarify what you're saying here?
He means, say the player list, in signup order is:
Alice
Bob
Chris
We agree that if Alice is the Hider she will hide behind Bob, if Bob is the Hider he will hide behind Chris, and if Chris is the hider he will hide behind Alice.
-
Yeah, Jimm has it right.
-
Hi everyone, blah blah RVS blah blah.
Here's what I really want to talk about, I thought about this during signups and stuff:
Hider seems like a really interesting role. Either he makes an IC, or he dies behind a mafia / vigilante. Of course, if he dies behind a mafia / vigilante, that's useless for town unless we knew who he was hiding behind.
Would it be beneficial for town if, before the end of the day, everyone posted a list of who they would hide behind, if they were the hider? With everyone saying this, there would be 10 townies saying who they'd hide behind, if they were the hider. This would hopefully be enough to give scum little information on who the hider was. Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list. This has the advantage of covering the hider's tracks better, but probably makes it harder to find a scum to hide behind.
I just feel that if Hider hides behind scum N1, without a way for us to figure out who that scum is, Hider potentially becomes a negative-utility role. If hider dies N1, though, we can look at our list, and work backwards to see who he hid behind, and know that that person is more than likely scum.
I've never played with hider before, so maybe this has been tried before and proven to be a terrible idea, but I don't think it is.
Hider hides behind the person just below them in signup list, and if they die boom mafia?
-
Well, probably. There's a chance the person would be vigilante, but yes odds are they are mafia.
-
Well, probably. There's a chance the person would be vigilante, but yes odds are they are mafia.
And isn't vig also usually negative utility? It seems like this setup is designed (well, I might add) to have town potentially very suspicious of itself.
-
Well, probably. There's a chance the person would be vigilante, but yes odds are they are mafia.
And isn't vig also usually negative utility? It seems like this setup is designed (well, I might add) to have town potentially very suspicious of itself.
I can see positive utility in vig, but imho in this setup I'd probably opt for tracker if I were the person making the choice.
-
Well, this is my first ever online game of mafia, I guess I've got to break the ice, and post something now. I mean, how are we to get acquainted if we don't say anything about ourselves? It's always difficult when a group of new friends meet together
for the first time, so I'm glad TwistedArcher started the ball rolling . . . I mean, I have absolutely no idea what we're doing
here, or what I'm doing here, or why Yuma's text now sounds exactly like Tim Curry in my head.
In all seriousness, I'm super excited. I like TA's plan(s) for the hider, but I'm not sure which one is better. Either way, I think having a policy for all of us is a good idea so whatever information they learn won't be lost when they die.
I think I'm leaning toward the "who would you pick" option. That allows for judgement calls into who should be investigated. It seems to me the Hider has increasingly good odds of dying every night, so although Mafia will almost certainly be able to piece together hints as to who it is and who's been actually getting investigation results, by the time they do, odds are the hider will die anyway. And maybe on their last night, they'll hide behind scum!
It seems to me that the biggest problem is conveying your results. Let's say I'm the hider. Before night, I really suspect TA, so I say "If I were the hider, I'd hide behind TA." Well, I survive the night, so now I know TA isn't scum. But all day yesterday I was attacking him, pointing out how every post he made just made him scummier and scummier. Today, someone tries to get me to vote for him and I say I don't think he's that scummy anymore. Wouldn't it be obvious that I'm the hider at this point? So unless the hider wants to participate in town-side bussing, it seems like maybe the hider should be targeting their town reads rather than their scum reads. That way, their information would be retroactively useful after they died, but they wouldn't really have to change their play because of it.
I've never played with a hider before, or with this many people actually, so I could be completely wrong here...
Anyway, have fun everyone. I am determined to enjoy myself and I'm very intrigued and oh, my, this soup's delicious isn't it?
-
Oh, and the other problem with that is that if several people said they would hide behind the same person, scum could target that person in particular with better odds of getting two kills for one. And people everyone has town reads on are more likely to be scum targets anyway, aren't they?
Okay, so maybe that is a bad idea, or it needs to be worked around. What if each player had to declare who they'd hide behind, but no repeats allowed? Does that make it any better?
Maybe random is better after all.
-
Sorry to keep posting like this. I actually tend to abuse the hell out of the edit feature on forums, because I always do a bunch of thinking about things as I read over my post once after posting it.
But the reason I'm thinking people might want to pick is also that it would give a larger number of useful turns. The information of confirming someone as town is important, even if we don't find out until a few days in. But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
Maybe the best result is a compromise. The hider could pick the exact center of their reads-list. So before night, we all list our reads, and we agree that the hider would hide behind the person dead center (or an agreed upon spot). That way, we aren't all fighting to pick the person we all are sure is town, but we also aren't super likely to have the hider die on night 1. And I don't know that the hider would have to adjust their play much different than any of us, given that the people in the middle we're all presumably ambivalent on?
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
There are 3 mafia though, right? So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night. Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?
-
Oh, and the other problem with that is that if several people said they would hide behind the same person, scum could target that person in particular with better odds of getting two kills for one. And people everyone has town reads on are more likely to be scum targets anyway, aren't they?
Okay, so maybe that is a bad idea, or it needs to be worked around. What if each player had to declare who they'd hide behind, but no repeats allowed? Does that make it any better?
Maybe random is better after all.
Yeah, this is the main problem with choosing targets. if there's repeats, it allows scum to play the odds to possibly get two nightkills. This is the downside, and regrettably it's a pretty significant downside. Random helps to minimize this, but it has less upside as well, I feel.
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
There are 3 mafia though, right? So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night. Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?
I think, in general, 1-for-1 trades are better than confirming town. The sooner we kill a scum, the better -- the second scum is much easier to find, once you have those interactions to look at.
As for changing your reads as town hider, it's a difficult thing to do, but no different than the dilemma a cop has in most games. It's something that needs to be handled with care, but still done. Town bussing should never, ever, ever happen, IMO. Hider would need to go find some evidence, anything, or just try to focus their attention elsewhere without being too obvious.
It's a tough role to play certainly, and something that needs to be handled with care, but it's just part of the game. I don't think it's such a big issue that it should be a priority over finding scum, though (finding scum is a much bigger boon to town)
-
Okay, so my current thought is that we should all list a reads-list, and agree for each night on an agreed upon number in that list that we would all go after if we were the hider. Maybe start near the middle or town side on day 1, progress toward the scummy side as the days go by so we have greater odds of making that 1-for-1 trade when things start to get dire.
It occurs to me that Tracker/Vigilante could also matter to this. If they are a Vigilante, that is one more person the hider would die for hiding behind, not so if they are a tracker. If we're talking about coordinated hider actions, should we maybe discuss whether it makes sense for them to definitely choose Tracker, or is that whole line of conversation/reasoning likely to end up giving scum too much information?
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
There are 3 mafia though, right? So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night. Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?
Of course, of course. But we'll also have the doctor/pyscho maybe getting a dirty read on the vig, and the tracker maybe picking up on the hider/detective-psycho. Hence my comment that this setup seems to be designed for maximum suspicion.
Also I'm going to call that role the psycho-detective until we know which it is (if ever). ;D
Waiting for raerae to yell at us for theory talk...
-
DON'T YELL AT ME RAERAE!
Yeah, so Tracker suspects Hider, Psycho-Detective (I love this name).
Psychologist suspects Vigilante.
Hider causes us to suspect Vigilante.
There is a lot of inter-town suspicion there. It seems like choosing Vigilante is a good way to get suspected by a lot of people, and choosing Tracker is a good way to find yourself wrongly suspecting a lot of people. I'm not sure if that has any particular meaning though. Maybe that the Trackerlante had better be smart? It seems like Vigilante would be a better choice for a newer player, Tracker a better choice for a more experienced player (someone good at figuring out which of those investigations could be false alarms.) But Tracker makes the Hider a bit better by virtue of existing, so maybe that means Tracker is better for everyone other than himself and his ability to read people? Seems like a smart Tracker could puzzle out what the odds of someone being Hider/Psycho-Detective are, so I'd think that is the better choice, but maybe not?
-
Goodness gracious some of those names are hard to read. Any thoughts on name claiming?
For now I'm just happy to be playing again and glad that I don't have to worry about being scum on my first game back.
NO CLAIMING!! Those, as always, are my thoughts on that subject.
-
DON'T YELL AT ME RAERAE!
Yeah, so Tracker suspects Hider, Psycho-Detective (I love this name).
Psychologist suspects Vigilante.
Hider causes us to suspect Vigilante.
There is a lot of inter-town suspicion there. It seems like choosing Vigilante is a good way to get suspected by a lot of people, and choosing Tracker is a good way to find yourself wrongly suspecting a lot of people. I'm not sure if that has any particular meaning though. Maybe that the Trackerlante had better be smart? It seems like Vigilante would be a better choice for a newer player, Tracker a better choice for a more experienced player (someone good at figuring out which of those investigations could be false alarms.) But Tracker makes the Hider a bit better by virtue of existing, so maybe that means Tracker is better for everyone other than himself and his ability to read people? Seems like a smart Tracker could puzzle out what the odds of someone being Hider/Psycho-Detective are, so I'd think that is the better choice, but maybe not?
Putting numbers on some pure odds for N1 (scum already knows/can figure this out themselves, so there is no harm in this. And sometimes town doesn't think this sort of stuff out this explicitly (while scum does), so hopefully if our PRs are that sort of townie this will be remembered and give town a small leg up):
Psychologist will get "can kill" result on 4/12 players with Vig [1 town result/3 scum results]
Psychologist will get "can kill" result on 3/12 players with Tracker [0t/3s]
Detective will get "killed" result on 2/12 players with Vig who kills [1t/1s]
Detective will get "killed" result on 1/12 players with no Vig/Vig who doesn't kill [0t/1s]
Hider will die behind probably 5/12 players with Vig (edge case where scum kills Vig N1) [2t/3s]
Hider will die behind probably 4/12 players with Tracker [1t/3s]
Tracker will see 3/12 players take an action (if Hider hides) [2t/1s]
Vigilante will kill scum 3/12 times, town 9/12 times (PR 2/9 times) [9(2)t/3s]
Let me know if I've made any errors.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
-
The math looks good to me there Voltaire. My only question is what's the point of being a Vigilante who doesn't kill???
I mean, if you get the role against your will and choose not to kill because you don't have any good scum reads, that makes sense, but if you think you wouldn't want to kill, why wouldn't you just choose tracker in this setup?
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
There are 3 mafia though, right? So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night. Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?
Of course, of course. But we'll also have the doctor/pyscho maybe getting a dirty read on the vig, and the tracker maybe picking up on the hider/detective-psycho. Hence my comment that this setup seems to be designed for maximum suspicion.
Also I'm going to call that role the psycho-detective until we know which it is (if ever). ;D
Waiting for raerae to yell at us for theory talk...
And what good has it ever done me? Oh well, LOUD NOISES THEORY IS BAD LOUD NOISES!!
Seriously though, I think the hider should decide on their own who to hide behind and I won't be giving a list of people I would hide behind were I the hider. The last time I saw town give a similar list, they got steam rolled by the scumteam (Ash, Yuma, Eevee...) because they didn't pay attention or refer back to their lists.
-
The math looks good to me there Voltaire. My only question is what's the point of being a Vigilante who doesn't kill???
I mean, if you get the role against your will and choose not to kill because you don't have any good scum reads, that makes sense, but if you think you wouldn't want to kill, why wouldn't you just choose tracker in this setup?
I'm just talked about N1 with this math - obviously it changes quite a bit (psychologist gets better, for example) as the nights go by. I could see someone picking Vig and not shooting until later days when they're more sure on their reads.
-
Seriously though, I think the hider should decide on their own who to hide behind and I won't be giving a list of people I would hide behind were I the hider. The last time I saw town give a similar list, they got steam rolled by the scumteam (Ash, Yuma, Eevee...) because they didn't pay attention or refer back to their lists.
Sounds like that's a fixable problem then though?
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
Was the hider outed so the mafia NK'd them, or did they catch scum by hiding behind someone and town couldn't figure out who?
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
Was the hider outed so the mafia NK'd them, or did they catch scum by hiding behind someone and town couldn't figure out who?
Eevee was the Hider. He hid behind Cayvie, who was Town, and shot by ashersky, who was a Town Vigilante. Ashersky was shot by mafia. I was a Tracker who tracked ashersky, so I actually got to piece together the mayhem the next day. Suffice to say, we did not win that game.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
Nope, just confirming my suspicions, thanks.
-
The people reading the spectator comments on Innovation already know this, but I've been following along with that game (and Back to Basics) while waiting for this one to fill up. I wanted to figure out how the site worked, what people were like, etc.
Figure I should maybe actually say that rather than just implying it.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
Hahaha. Wow. You are quite funny.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
Nope, just confirming my suspicions, thanks.
Jimm, we have had super proficient newbs come out of the wood work. TwistedArcher is a good example.
-
So, yeah, I can see what Robz and Raerae are saying about planning this making it easy for scum to 2-for-1 the Hider and whomever they hide behind, I kind of said the same thing, but it still seems like we should have some kind of plan. If the Hider just hides behind their biggest scum read and no one says anything, don't they just die without getting us anywhere?
-
Hi guys!
On the hider thing:
Pros: If the hider dies because he hides behind mafia, a lot of the time in a normal situation, we wouldn't know which person the hider hid behind. Now we know.
Cons: The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1. The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them. Or maybe they would. But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.) The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider. So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.
If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights. Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch. This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders. But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.
This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on. Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally. But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
The hider died night 1 because mafia killed the person he was hiding behind, or he hid behind mafia?
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
The hider died night 1 because mafia killed the person he was hiding behind, or he hid behind mafia?
As I explained in a follow up post, he hid behind the person the town vigilante shot.
-
Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.
Do you mean "No kill"?
-
1.2. Vote Count
"Split up? asked Miss Scarlet "I don't know if we should do that."
"Why not?" asked Mrs. White.
"I agree, this mansion is obviously dangerous. Rrenaud is notorious wacko. Who knows what horrors may be hidden in this house," said Mr. Boddy. "I suggest we just wait patiently for him to come back. I am afraid someone may get hurt."
"This is war Mr. Boddy!" shouted Col. Mustard. "Casualties are inevitable. You can not make an omelet without breaking eggs, every cook will tell you that."
"It's true," said The Cook. "You can't. But why is this war?" she asked.
"War. Huh! What is it good for" everyone started to sing together.
UmbarageOfSnow (1): Jimmmmmmm
Not voting: (12) Voltaire, chairs, UmbarageOfSnow, Twistedarcher, Eevee, Robz, mcmcsalot, liopoil, shraeye, raerae, ashersky, nkirbit
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Cons: The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1. The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them. Or maybe they would. But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.) The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider. So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.
If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights. Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch. This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders. But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.
This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on. Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally. But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.
That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part. Maybe that's how those other games failed?
So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination? We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two? Any other ideas?
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
This made me laugh!
-
Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch.
Do you mean "No kill"?
Yeah.
-
Cons: The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1. The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them. Or maybe they would. But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.) The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider. So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.
If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights. Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch. This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders. But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.
This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on. Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally. But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.
That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part. Maybe that's how those other games failed?
So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination? We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two? Any other ideas?
If you're listing two players, the whole plan doesn't work. It works so if the hider turns up dead (from hiding behind mafia), you automatically get scum (unless they hid behind the vig). If we want to do this plan, that's just something we're going to have to stomach. There's no way around it with the plan still working, as far as I can tell.
-
Cons: The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1. The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them. Or maybe they would. But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.) The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider. So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.
If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights. Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch. This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders. But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.
This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on. Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally. But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.
That is an extremely good point, particularly the underlined part. Maybe that's how those other games failed?
So how can we take away the ability of Mafia to make a big chart and narrow down the Hider by process of elimination? We could make it a lot harder by having each person list TWO people they would hide behind, so if they die, we narrow it down to one of two? Any other ideas?
If you're listing two players, the whole plan doesn't work. It works so if the hider turns up dead (from hiding behind mafia), you automatically get scum (unless they hid behind the vig). If we want to do this plan, that's just something we're going to have to stomach. There's no way around it with the plan still working, as far as I can tell.
I think we (and the hider most of all) need to accept the fact that the hider is going to die, and probably sooner rather than later, no matter what we do. So let's wring every last bit of info from 'em while they're still around. (and I have no idea how to do that)
-
We have had a Hider before, and we had this exact same debate over whether to claim /wouldhidebehindX, and I think we sort of did it, and then our Hider died Night 1.
This was Mafia XII, Voltgloss's JK+ Waffle Mafia.
So, let's not do that.
Yeah, that was a town vig shooting the hider though, so it's actually evidence for the contrary - people claiming who they'd hide behind didn't make it obvious who the hider is (for scum or sadly for town vig either).
I do agree that these plans for the hider won't work unless everyone agrees to them.
-
But if the hider goes after their biggest scum read, and is right on the first day, well we confirm one scum instantly, which is good, but we have no confirmed town at all. It seems the longer the hider stays alive, the better their odds of further narrowing down the suspect pool.
In general a 1-for-1 trade is great for town, and I don't see any reason why that would be different in this setup. We'd lynch scum the next day, and we're good.
There are 3 mafia though, right? So yeah, 1-for-1 is great, but the hider will get a 1-for-1 trade sooner or later no matter what, assuming they hide behind someone every night. Isn't it much much better to get a 1-for-1 trade and also learn that 1 or 2 other people are confirmed town?
Of course, of course. But we'll also have the doctor/pyscho maybe getting a dirty read on the vig, and the tracker maybe picking up on the hider/detective-psycho. Hence my comment that this setup seems to be designed for maximum suspicion.
Also I'm going to call that role the psycho-detective until we know which it is (if ever). ;D
Waiting for raerae to yell at us for theory talk...
And what good has it ever done me? Oh well, LOUD NOISES THEORY IS BAD LOUD NOISES!!
Seriously though, I think the hider should decide on their own who to hide behind and I won't be giving a list of people I would hide behind were I the hider. The last time I saw town give a similar list, they got steam rolled by the scumteam (Ash, Yuma, Eevee...) because they didn't pay attention or refer back to their lists.
Well, I would hope that we have enough good players willing to look back so that this won't be a problem in this game.
The problem I see is if the hider hides behind scum, he dies, we don't know who he hid behind, we're completely in the dark, and we've lost a town PR with no benefit.
-
I do agree that these plans for the hider won't work unless everyone agrees to them.
So can we already not use them because raerae has stated intent not to participate?
I for one think a list (and choice) from everyone is probably a good idea, based on what everyone has said so far, and I'd go for it.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
...xeiron?
-
Hi guys!
On the hider thing:
Pros: If the hider dies because he hides behind mafia, a lot of the time in a normal situation, we wouldn't know which person the hider hid behind. Now we know.
Cons: The chances of a two-kill night increase, especially after night1. The mafia immediately gain information about who they should target N1 (for example, it's unlikely that they will target someone hiding behind them. Or maybe they would. But they do get information that allows them to further aim their kill.) The other thing is, after N1 when any player hiding behind a mafia member turns up alive, the mafia immediately know that all of those players are not the hider. So each night, this plan gets much, much worse as the mafia get more information.
If the hider doesn't hit scum, which is fairly likely, scum have a list of players they can safely target to kill for the next few nights. Part of the utility of hider is that it has the possibility of causing a no-lynch. This utility decreases from the plan, because the mafia gets a list of targets who they know are not hiders. But, the hider gets the utility of being able to "report" who killed them, so that trade-off may be worth it.
This plan also gets worse and worse as the days go on. Night1, the mafia have no idea who is a hider or who isn't, so they don't have any more chance of hitting the hidee then they would normally. But Night2, they do know some players who can't be the hiders, so they have more a of chance of successfully hitting the hidee.
Well, the we can declare targets for N1, but not for N2. So even if scum have the hider narrowed down to, say, 6 of 8 townies alive, if we're not announcing targets N2, does that really help scum all that much?
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
Oh shit! I've broken my meta as a newb. Let's try this again.
GUIZ, I HAVE THE SCUM TEAM NARROWED DOWN TO EXACTLY 3 PLAYERS, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHO UNTIL WE MASSCLAIM!!! BUT JUST TRUST ME AND WE CAN SOLVE THIS GAME BY DAY 2 WITH MY SECRET PLAN!
(Was that mean?)
Please don't reference ongoing games
Oh, and be nice :)
-
I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem. We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
-
I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem. We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
*brainsplosion*
If you can explain it to me like a child, it sounds like it could work.
-
I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem. We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
*brainsplosion*
If you can explain it to me like a child, it sounds like it could work.
Though make sure it doesn't run afoul of this rule:
1. Bold, brown text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
-
Please don't reference ongoing games
Oh, and be nice :)
Sorry :-[
-
I just realized, this is like a cryptography sort of problem. We know that the enemy will always know our plans, so what about something approaching the way a public-key works?
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
Hmm. The problem is, all the flavor-names are known. If they were unknown, this might work much better. If you're going to do something like "Hide behind the person corresponding to the first letter of your flavor name, where A=1" or whatever, scum can sit down and count who's getting targeted the most times by a potential hider, then use those odds.
I think I'd prefer random. But rather than just saying "Let's go up the list, or down the list!", which coulddddd possibly be manipulated by scum, we could use the timestamp on a post to set a number for how many people we're skipping, or something similar. Say the post ends with 2, we'd start with the first person. They'd skip 2 people, hide behind the 4th, the 4th would hide behind the 7th, and so on, removing people from the list once they've been chosen. This makes it completely random, and even completely resistant to scum choosing a preferable "random" method.
-
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
Is something like this what you mean?
The hider should hide behind the person below them in the flavor-name list. Mustard hides behind Plum, etc.
1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock
Would that even work?
-
Though make sure it doesn't run afoul of this rule:
1. Bold, brown text is reserved for the Mod. No invisible/small text is allowed, nor is cryptography.
Not actual cryptography in any way, just an idea from there (I like math.)
We each have a unique flavor name. The list of possibilities is known, so this isn't entirely proof against analysis, but it would be very tough. We come up with some system based on our flavor names as the person whom the Hider should hide behind. Then, when the hider dies and we learn their flavor name, we can back calculate who it would be. It shouldn't be game breaking because scum could also do the same calculation on all the flavor names they don't have and could still find where the best odds are the same way as before, but it should be resistant to the same type of analysis you get from checking off who changed their vote, because they could only learn that, say, the Hider is not Mr. Green or whatever, which is much less useful to them.
Easy example: The flavor names are alphabetized in the first post. We could all agree that the Hider should look at what number they are in the first post, and pick that number on the /in list to investigate, incrementing by one each night. Skip yourself.
-
We all have a piece of information that no one else has: our Flavor-name! This is revealed upon death. If we can come up with some way so that the Hider can use their flavor name to pick who to hide behind, that information is public after death, but it doesn't give the mafia any hints!
Is something like this what you mean?
The hider should hide behind the person below them in the flavor-name list. Mustard hides behind Plum, etc.
1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock
Would that even work?
But we don't know each others flavor
-
Correction: they aren't alphabetized but that wouldn't matter.
1. Mr. Green
2. Col. Mustard
3. Prof. Plum
4. The Cook
5. Yvette the Maid
6. Wadsworth the Butler
7. Miss Scarlet
8. Mrs. White
9. Mrs. Peacock
10. Mr. Boddy
11. The Cop
12. The Mechanic
13. The Singing Telegram Girl
Player Roster
1. Robz
2. raerae
3. liopoil
4. twistedarcher
5. shraeye
6. Eevee
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm
10. nkirbit
11. chairs
12. mcmcsalot
13. ashersky
So you can match up your number to the one to investigate and increment each round, skipping yourself. Back calculable, distributes evenly, only problem is over several nights scum can start deducing where they would have been based on flavor names and names of revealed people to narrow it down, but I think this extends that horizon quite a bit.
-
Umbrage of snow's idea matching up the player list and the flavor list seems like it would work to me. I think the hider should follow this process.
-
Oooh. So if I'm the hider, I'd hide behind Eevee is I was Mr. Green (skipping one player, Shraeye), I'd hide behind Voltaire if I was Col. MUstard, and so on?
I do like this plan.
-
I don't think that's what he's suggesting, and is more complicated than it needs to be.
If I'm the hider, and I'm Wadsworth the Butler (#6), I would hide behind Eevee (#6) tonight, Voltaire (#7) tomorrow, etc. etc.
If I were instead Mr. Boddy (#10), I would skip myself (#10), and hide behind chairs (#11) tonight, mcmc (#12) tomorrow.
This is much more simple and much less easy to get confused than TA's idea.
-
Oh yes that's easier
-
I don't think that's what he's suggesting, and is more complicated than it needs to be.
If I'm the hider, and I'm Wadsworth the Butler (#6), I would hide behind Eevee (#6) tonight, Voltaire (#7) tomorrow, etc. etc.
If I were instead Mr. Boddy (#10), I would skip myself (#10), and hide behind chairs (#11) tonight, mcmc (#12) tomorrow.
This is much more simple and much less easy to get confused than TA's idea.
I like this plan overall, because if the hider dies it gives us a way to determine who they died to (assuming they died from hiding with mafia) while hiding their own identity for longer than the "eevee hides behind voltaire, etc etc" plan.
-
Oooh. So if I'm the hider, I'd hide behind Eevee is I was Mr. Green (skipping one player, Shraeye), I'd hide behind Voltaire if I was Col. MUstard, and so on?
I do like this plan.
That could work too, although it has troubles if the Hider is The Singing Telegram Girl. It is harder for Mafia to analyze results of though, so that might have some more merit. I was thinking more just that Mr. Green would hide behind Robz, Col. Mustard would hide behind raerae, etc. But yeah, yours is more secure in that we give Mafia a lot less to go on.
13 is prime, so we don't have to worry about divisibility. So yeah, let's say if TA were Mr. Green, then TA should hide behind Eevee night 1, me night 2, etc. and if he were The Singing Telegram Girl he would hide behind Shareye, but on night 2 we need another system, so maybe the Singing Telegram Girl skips 1 the first night, 2 the second night, etc.
-
Oooh. So if I'm the hider, I'd hide behind Eevee is I was Mr. Green (skipping one player, Shraeye), I'd hide behind Voltaire if I was Col. MUstard, and so on?
I do like this plan.
That could work too, although it has troubles if the Hider is The Singing Telegram Girl. It is harder for Mafia to analyze results of though, so that might have some more merit. I was thinking more just that Mr. Green would hide behind Robz, Col. Mustard would hide behind raerae, etc. But yeah, yours is more secure in that we give Mafia a lot less to go on.
13 is prime, so we don't have to worry about divisibility. So yeah, let's say if TA were Mr. Green, then TA should hide behind Eevee night 1, me night 2, etc. and if he were The Singing Telegram Girl he would hide behind Shareye, but on night 2 we need another system, so maybe the Singing Telegram Girl skips 1 the first night, 2 the second night, etc.
Yeah nevermind, let's just go with what I said the first time, easy to explain, not that easy to analyze.
-
It's very important that if we do this plan that we not massclaim flavor names. Because this plan gives mafia the info that "Colonel Mustard, The Cop, and The Mechanic" are not the hider (or whatever names they would actually learn). This isn't bad information for the mafia to have, because they're not able to match up flavors with actual players. But if they are, it's the same information leak as the initial plan would have been.
-
It's very important that if we do this plan that we not massclaim flavor names. Because this plan gives mafia the info that "Colonel Mustard, The Cop, and The Mechanic" are not the hider (or whatever names they would actually learn). This isn't bad information for the mafia to have, because they're not able to match up flavors with actual players. But if they are, it's the same information leak as the initial plan would have been.
Agreed. So far we haven't had any major opportunities to see any benefit to flavorclaim, anyway.
-
Well that, and that it seems the most straightforward "one and only one" link could be that The Cop was the Detective, (although I'm hoping Yuma came up with something more clever) but if it is something like that, it seems like a flavor claim would be a good way to out our power roles more than anything beneficial.
I suppose Mr. Boddy could be scum or something, but I know I wouldn't be comfortable voting on that level of thing. I think flavorclaiming is a bad idea, and this plan makes it a worse idea, but it never would have been a good one to begin with.
-
I'm cool with this plan.
Also townread on Snow now (you're going to need a nickname, that's my shot at it).
Let's get down to business!
-
*Insert me asking a question about the plan, so as to demonstrate that I could be the Hider*
-
Let's get down to business!
Small scumread on Jimmmmm for lynch the new guy / suggesting flavor claim.
It's not much but it's all I have, other than a decent townread on Snow. Some people haven't even posted yet (totally reasonable).
-
Let's get down to business!
Small scumread on Jimmmmm for lynch the new guy / suggesting flavor claim.
It's not much but it's all I have, other than a decent townread on Snow. Some people haven't even posted yet (totally reasonable).
I was going to mention this. I also found it scummy.
Vote: Jimm
-
It's very important that if we do this plan that we not massclaim flavor names. Because this plan gives mafia the info that "Colonel Mustard, The Cop, and The Mechanic" are not the hider (or whatever names they would actually learn). This isn't bad information for the mafia to have, because they're not able to match up flavors with actual players. But if they are, it's the same information leak as the initial plan would have been.
Agreed. So far we haven't had any major opportunities to see any benefit to flavorclaim, anyway.
I can think of many scenarios where it would make sense to flavor/mass claim on later days, and none right now.
-
It's very important that if we do this plan that we not massclaim flavor names. Because this plan gives mafia the info that "Colonel Mustard, The Cop, and The Mechanic" are not the hider (or whatever names they would actually learn). This isn't bad information for the mafia to have, because they're not able to match up flavors with actual players. But if they are, it's the same information leak as the initial plan would have been.
Agreed. So far we haven't had any major opportunities to see any benefit to flavorclaim, anyway.
I can think of many scenarios where it would make sense to flavor/mass claim on later days, and none right now.
...so then you and I both agree that (at least for now) nkirbit is correct that we oughtn't flavor claim.
-
...so then you and I both agree that (at least for now) nkirbit is correct that we oughtn't flavor claim.
Yes. I just want to make it clear that I'm not anti-claiming all the time. I'm just anti-claiming D1 (and probably D2, but we'll see what happens).
-
For what it's worth, I took what Jimmmm said as a joke, I laughed at it anyway. I suppose that isn't really worth anything of course, and we have nothing else to go on. Only thing I'm sure of is that communism is a red herring.
-
If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.
-
For what it's worth, I took what Jimmmm said as a joke, I laughed at it anyway. I suppose that isn't really worth anything of course, and we have nothing else to go on. Only thing I'm sure of is that communism is a red herring.
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
I have a stronger town read on you right now, simply because I can't see mafia coming out of the gate with a plan to help town keep/use a power role to the best of its ability.
-
If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.
I don't think raerae's against plans, just against claiming. I see no reason why rae wouldn't want to go along with your plan, since it doesn't reveal extra information to the mafia.
But yes, anti-claiming is established raerae meta (from what I've seen/read).
-
Found a mistake. Corrected below.
Psychologist will get "can kill" result on 3/12 players with Vig [1 town result/2 scum results]
Psychologist will get "can kill" result on 2/12 players with Tracker [0t/2s]
Detective will get "killed" result on 2/12 players with Vig who kills [1t/1s]
Detective will get "killed" result on 1/12 players with no Vig/Vig who doesn't kill [0t/1s]
Hider will die behind probably 5/12 players with Vig (edge case where scum kills Vig N1) [2t/3s]
Hider will die behind probably 4/12 players with Tracker [1t/3s]
Tracker will see 3/12 players take an action (if Hider hides) [2t/1s]
Vigilante will kill scum 3/12 times, town 9/12 times (PR 2/9 times) [9(2)t/3s]
-
If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.
I don't think raerae's against plans, just against claiming. I see no reason why rae wouldn't want to go along with your plan, since it doesn't reveal extra information to the mafia.
But yes, anti-claiming is established raerae meta (from what I've seen/read).
Metas are easily faked.
-
Metas are easily faked.
Meaning?
-
Metas are easily faked.
Meaning?
You can act like your town meta even if you aren't town, you know. I do it all the time.
-
Metas are easily faked.
Meaning?
You can act like your town meta even if you aren't town, you know. I do it all the time.
Vote: Robz888 because he's acting towny ;)
-
Seriously though, I think the hider should decide on their own who to hide behind and I won't be giving a list of people I would hide behind were I the hider. The last time I saw town give a similar list, they got steam rolled by the scumteam (Ash, Yuma, Eevee...) because they didn't pay attention or refer back to their lists.
Sounds like that's a fixable problem then though?
Let's just say I have little faith. *cough role-madness claiming cough cough*
-
I will be semi-V/LA this weekend. I will be sure to check here once a day but probably not more than that.
-
okey-dokey, here we go.
One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
So flavor name claiming is bad under any circumstance I think.
We should consider choosing what the tracker/vig chooses, and if we decide vig, then maybe choose who they vig too.
UmbrageOfSnow's plan has 1 problem: the hider's night action is essentially random, not based of night actions. The hider could be forced to hide behind someone who he wouldn't otherwise because they are either very scummy or a likely NK choice. Similarly, what if the hider's flavor name corresponds to the player we lynch today? Or what if it corresponds to themself?
Here is what I think we should do, this can be organized during our long twilight, or right before the hammer:
Each player makes a list of the 11 other players who aren't them self or the player we lynch today, from best player to hide behind to worst player to hide behind, for them self only if they are the hider. They can even make two lists, one if the player flips town, another if they flip scum. Then they ONLY look at the 3 or 4 people at the top of their list. Then they take their flavor-name-number, (for instance, Mr. Green is #7), and they go to the player list, and starting from their number, go down until they get one of the players at the top of their list. hide behind that player.
This makes it so the hider hides behind a decent hiding target, without giving scum too much info on who is going to be hid behind.
This is a bit complicated, but I think it's our best option.
-
If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.
I don't think raerae's against plans, just against claiming. I see no reason why rae wouldn't want to go along with your plan, since it doesn't reveal extra information to the mafia.
But yes, anti-claiming is established raerae meta (from what I've seen/read).
No, I was against the original plans regarding the hider. I like the new one though because it doesn't cause anybody to claim anything. So maybe I just agreed with and restated everything you just said in that first sentence? Yes, yes I believe I did.
Now that we've had our fun little bit of theory talk, maybe we can get down to some good, old-fashioned scum hunting. Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?
-
Lio, why do you think your plan is better than kermit's or snow's or whoever came up with the one that's reasonable and doesn't involve claiming?
-
well, mine doesn't involve claiming either. Mine is better because the hider won't be forced into hiding behind someone who it is a bad idea to hide behind, they will mostly be able to make the choice himself.
-
Who is a "bad idea" to hind behind, Lio? Scummy people? I think those are the best people to hide behind as hider, because either you get a confirmed scum, or a town copread on a scummy player who would presumably be a mislynch target otherwise.
-
Oh, I see, potential NKs. Well, yes, that's a problem with the scenario, but I think the potential information it provides is worth that risk.
-
well, mine doesn't involve claiming either. Mine is better because the hider won't be forced into hiding behind someone who it is a bad idea to hide behind, they will mostly be able to make the choice himself.
Wait...what?? How does it not involve claiming when you want us to put down a list of people we'd hide behind? Am I not understanding?
-
I don't like Lio's plan of making a list, than using 3 of it, or something like that because it's just not as simple. If we go through with this plan, we want to make sure we know who the person hid behind. I just see a lot of ways to get confused with this method. Snow came up with a clean method.. if we choose to do this, I really think that's the way we should go.
-
We should consider choosing what the tracker/vig chooses, and if we decide vig, then maybe choose who they vig too.
I agree that this is worth discussing, although I'm not certain we should come to a decision-by-consensus on it, give the player the freedom to choose what he thinks is best. But it certainly seems at least worth talking about. I know if I were the Tracker/Vigilante, I'd choose Tracker, I believe I outlined my case for this earlier, but essentially it
1) makes Hider/Psychologist inherently better by avoiding the false positive they'd both get from Vigilante.
2) allows me to be the one with the most potentially flawed information, which if we're aware of this and have a smart Tracker/Vigilante player, should be something they can work around (by being less certain of their own information, but still taking it into account because it will be true more often than not, just not a sure thing.) Since we've already discussed this in thread, I would hope any player who picked Tracker would be well aware of this possibility.
Why do you think Vigilante would be a better choice?
-
my plan is not simple. why does it need to be simple? that's silly. We should do whatever we need to do to win.
oh, I didn't count that as claiming, but I guess it kinda is.
yes, potential NKs. exactly. you do kind of want to hide behind scum. So if you are forced to hide behind everyone's top townread, it's a total waste. Not only are you likely to die from NK, but at best you make someone who everyone already thought was town IC. Also, snow's plan does not address what you do if your flavor-name-number is either you or the player who we lynch on the player list.
-
No, no, no!! It is not worth discussing! All that's going to come of discussing the vig/tracker who should do what and who they should listen to is 6 more pages of impossible to reread materials. Snow, what do you hope to glean from this discussion? How do you feel it will help you form reads on players later in the game?
-
We should consider choosing what the tracker/vig chooses, and if we decide vig, then maybe choose who they vig too.
I agree that this is worth discussing, although I'm not certain we should come to a decision-by-consensus on it, give the player the freedom to choose what he thinks is best. But it certainly seems at least worth talking about. I know if I were the Tracker/Vigilante, I'd choose Tracker, I believe I outlined my case for this earlier, but essentially it
1) makes Hider/Psychologist inherently better by avoiding the false positive they'd both get from Vigilante.
2) allows me to be the one with the most potentially flawed information, which if we're aware of this and have a smart Tracker/Vigilante player, should be something they can work around (by being less certain of their own information, but still taking it into account because it will be true more often than not, just not a sure thing.) Since we've already discussed this in thread, I would hope any player who picked Tracker would be well aware of this possibility.
Why do you think Vigilante would be a better choice?
I DON'T think that vig is a better choice. I think vig is probably a better PR than tracker, but because of the bad interactions it has with hider and psychologist/detective tracker, tracker is a better choice. I want us to come to a consensus so that we know whether we have to worry about false-positives from hider-death or psychologist/detective.
-
No, no, no!! It is not worth discussing! All that's going to come of discussing the vig/tracker who should do what and who they should listen to is 6 more pages of impossible to reread materials. Snow, what do you hope to glean from this discussion? How do you feel it will help you form reads on players later in the game?
it doesn't help us form reads. HOWEVER, it does let us get a better use out of our PRs. Without our PRs, scum has a much better chance of winning that we do. Town's best chance of victory is to have successful PR use. So we should do whatever we can to maximize their chance of providing a benefit to town.
-
UmbrageOfSnow's plan has 1 problem: the hider's night action is essentially random, not based of night actions. The hider could be forced to hide behind someone who he wouldn't otherwise because they are either very scummy or a likely NK choice.
I agree that this is the flaw in the plan. I pointed that out in one of the earlier posts, I do think allowing the Hider to target whomever he or she wants gives it a bit more power, but I don't have any great ideas of how to arrange that and still be able to allow everyone to back-calculate ALL their targets after they died. I think the confirmed townies are almost as important as the confirmed scum, although others don't seem to value that as much, it really would make process of elimination more powerful.
That said, I've come to think that random picks probably aren't a bad thing either, as long as we can figure out who the random picks were after the fact.
Similarly, what if the hider's flavor name corresponds to the player we lynch today? Or what if it corresponds to themself?
This is a silly objection. Twice in my initial explanation I said that the Hider should skip themself. Likewise, skipping the lynched player, other dead players later on, and already confirmed town (if it somehow got all the way around to that, although I can't see how the game could possibly go on that long) should be pretty obvious. It's not really a flaw in the plan at all.
Here is what I think we should do, this can be organized during our long twilight, or right before the hammer:
Each player makes a list of the 11 other players who aren't them self or the player we lynch today, from best player to hide behind to worst player to hide behind, for them self only if they are the hider. They can even make two lists, one if the player flips town, another if they flip scum. Then they ONLY look at the 3 or 4 people at the top of their list. Then they take their flavor-name-number, (for instance, Mr. Green is #7), and they go to the player list, and starting from their number, go down until they get one of the players at the top of their list. hide behind that player.
This makes it so the hider hides behind a decent hiding target, without giving scum too much info on who is going to be hid behind.
This is a bit complicated, but I think it's our best option.
I actually like this plan, and I'd be totally fine with it. It is a bit more work for people to post lists though, and the important thing is that we need EVERY player to post a list in that case, because any player not doing so seems less likely to be the hider, reducing the possibilities for mafia to guess who they should target. It does also make it a bit easier for Mafia to guess who the Hider is hiding behind and kill that person if they have a few guesses as to who the hider might be, especially if they narrow it down to a few people who have the same few people in the tops of their list.
I like my plan better, but I'd be perfectly willing to go with yours, I think it definitely has merit and we shouldn't avoid good plans on the basis of being complicated.
-
Similarly, what if the hider's flavor name corresponds to the player we lynch today? Or what if it corresponds to themself?
This is a silly objection. Twice in my initial explanation I said that the Hider should skip themself. Likewise, skipping the lynched player, other dead players later on, and already confirmed town (if it somehow got all the way around to that, although I can't see how the game could possibly go on that long) should be pretty obvious. It's not really a flaw in the plan at all.
Okay, that's an easy fix to it.
I actually like this plan, and I'd be totally fine with it. It is a bit more work for people to post lists though, and the important thing is that we need EVERY player to post a list in that case, because any player not doing so seems less likely to be the hider, reducing the possibilities for mafia to guess who they should target. It does also make it a bit easier for Mafia to guess who the Hider is hiding behind and kill that person if they have a few guesses as to who the hider might be, especially if they narrow it down to a few people who have the same few people in the tops of their list.
I like my plan better, but I'd be perfectly willing to go with yours, I think it definitely has merit and we shouldn't avoid good plans on the basis of being complicated.
Your plan is certainly easier to execute, and mine isn't very practical at all. I think mine will produce better results though.
I will say though, that I think either of our plans are much better than just doing nothing.
-
No, no, no!! It is not worth discussing! All that's going to come of discussing the vig/tracker who should do what and who they should listen to is 6 more pages of impossible to reread materials. Snow, what do you hope to glean from this discussion? How do you feel it will help you form reads on players later in the game?
This:
I want us to come to a consensus so that we know whether we have to worry about false-positives from hider-death or psychologist/detective.
And this:
it doesn't help us form reads. HOWEVER, it does let us get a better use out of our PRs. Without our PRs, scum has a much better chance of winning that we do. Town's best chance of victory is to have successful PR use. So we should do whatever we can to maximize their chance of providing a benefit to town.
I don't understand why you think discussing our larger-scale gameplans is pointless? Skilled Mafia would presumably have a larger gameplan, if we categorically refuse to discuss such things, it seems like unnecessarily handing an organizational advantage to scum.
Additionally, my understand of "RVS" and the like is that it's a way to get people talking so that there is something to get reads off of. But from what I've seen (keeping in mind that I've only read 1.5 games here) this mostly leads to people voting for stupid reasons, even once they are out of the acknowledged stupid-reason-voting-stage. Talking about how best to use our power roles, the things we should be thinking about in the long-run of the setup, etc seems like it would serve equally well to get people talking, but might potentially also have things people could have real positions on. I don't know that it would necessarily be any better for catching scum, but I don't see how it could possibly be worse, and I do see how it could hypothetically be better, I'm just not sure that it really is. Still seems like a winner to me.
Also, it's just a lot more interesting of a discussion for me than voting for Raerae because I don't trust anyone with that many vowels in their name (because my grandfather was Welsh). I don't see how that helps us scumhunt either, and I'm not sure what else I should be doing when, quite frankly, there is nothing especially scummy about anyone as far as I can tell yet.
Seems like the general method is "talk about nonsense until someone slips up or "slips up". Why not make it potentially useful nonsense, or at least nonsense that many of us find interesting?
-
Your plan is certainly easier to execute, and mine isn't very practical at all. I think mine will produce better results though.
I will say though, that I think either of our plans are much better than just doing nothing.
I agree with both of these statements.
-
My big hesitation about liopoli's plan is that some people may lurk and not post lists, the more complicated this is, the more likely that is. Every townie lurker increases the odds of Mafie deducing who the real Hider is.
-
okay, I love the hider plan.
I think vig is usually bad for town, tracker in a setup like this I think is good because it cant confuse us at all.
Add the fact that there the detective/psychologist, aand the hider, I don't see any reason whatsoever to chose vig.
On the topic of detective and psycologist, I have some thoughts.
1) Detective needs to wifom if you get the result of "has not killed" that is a good chance that person is town, so potentially claim to save them.
2) Psycologist needs to wifom as well, a negative result means the player is likely town and you could claim to save them.
The neat trick with this is mafia should only have one player do the nk the whole game and have a better chance to be "cleared" by a detective but they should have a different player do the nk each not to increase "clearing" from a psycologist.
Now lets assume for a second mafia is smart, there is a 50/50 shot for D/P, D can only clear 2 mafia where as P can clear all 3, so they should go ahead and have everyone shoot. Now this means a detective can very likely trust a result of "has not killed" and a Psycologist should not out himself with a negative result.
I think town has good pr's and if used correctly are in good shape.
-
I don't understand why you think discussing our larger-scale gameplans is pointless? Skilled Mafia would presumably have a larger gameplan, if we categorically refuse to discuss such things, it seems like unnecessarily handing an organizational advantage to scum.
Additionally, my understand of "RVS" and the like is that it's a way to get people talking so that there is something to get reads off of. But from what I've seen (keeping in mind that I've only read 1.5 games here) this mostly leads to people voting for stupid reasons, even once they are out of the acknowledged stupid-reason-voting-stage. Talking about how best to use our power roles, the things we should be thinking about in the long-run of the setup, etc seems like it would serve equally well to get people talking, but might potentially also have things people could have real positions on. I don't know that it would necessarily be any better for catching scum, but I don't see how it could possibly be worse, and I do see how it could hypothetically be better, I'm just not sure that it really is. Still seems like a winner to me.
Trimmed this to not be so long and assume the "you" you're referring to is me, not lio, so I'll answer. Never have I ever found theory talk to help find scum. Often have I always found scum participating in theory talk because a) it's easy to get some participation points and b) you're only giving your opinion which half the players will agree with and the other half won't so you get painted half scummy/half townie and then everybody has a null read on you. Ain't nobody gonna lynch a null-read so it's a safe place for scum to hide early game.
-
I think that the "use your flavor name list vs player name list" idea is best as it prevents any mechanism whereby scum can work to manipulate us into some sort of awkwardness with hider lists - and it also prevents the potential issues with lurkers.
-
Good god, I just read through pages and pages of worthless stuff. Please don't start talking about vig/tracker crap.
So we should do whatever we can to maximize their chance of providing a benefit to town.
If "whatever we can to maximize" PR utility involves jamming the thread with 6+ pages of theory talk, I'm not interested
We should consider choosing what the tracker/vig chooses, and if we decide vig, then maybe choose who they vig too.
I agree that this is worth discussing,
Nope, not worth discussing.
Putting numbers on some pure odds for N1
...NUMBERSNUMBERS...
Let me know if I've made any errors.
I don't see how this exercise has any utility.
Yeah, so Tracker suspects Hider, Psycho-Detective (I love this name).
Psychologist suspects Vigilante.
Hider causes us to suspect Vigilante.
There is a lot of inter-town suspicion there.
Good point. From this point out, I refuse to vote for any of my scumreads, as they are likely town.
I will be semi-V/LA this weekend. I will be sure to check here once a day but probably not more than that.
Seriously??!?? Unless I'm having a slow day at work, I rarely check more than twice a day maximum. Your schedule isn't "semi-V/LA", it's "normal". People here just looooove making 60+ page threads that nobody wants to reread.
Seems like the general method is "talk about nonsense until someone slips up or "slips up". Why not make it potentially useful nonsense, or at least nonsense that many of us find interesting?
Unfortunately, this is our normal method and it's terrible. But not as terrible as "talking about theory until someone slips up", because theory-talk has virtually no bearing on alignment. The best method is to vote for people. Watch this:
Vote: liopoil
Now let's sit back and watch this wagon take off. Seriously, I expect at least 4 other votes in the next day.
-
Yeah, so Tracker suspects Hider, Psycho-Detective (I love this name).
Psychologist suspects Vigilante.
Hider causes us to suspect Vigilante.
There is a lot of inter-town suspicion there.
Good point. From this point out, I refuse to vote for any of my scumreads, as they are likely town.
That isn't even remotely what I was saying! It was a benefits to the rest of the roles based on what the Tracker/Vigilante decides to choose. Either your wilfully misrepresenting me for some reason or you didn't read (most likely, but I don't get why you quoted it then). It just seems to me like we should minimize false positives and I don't get why you're angry about that.
Seems like the general method is "talk about nonsense until someone slips up or "slips up". Why not make it potentially useful nonsense, or at least nonsense that many of us find interesting?
Unfortunately, this is our normal method and it's terrible. But not as terrible as "talking about theory until someone slips up", because theory-talk has virtually no bearing on alignment. The best method is to vote for people. Watch this:
Vote: liopoil
Now let's sit back and watch this wagon take off. Seriously, I expect at least 4 other votes in the next day.
Well this may very well work, but as I explained, I don't see why it would be any better, or why you two are so angry about talking about theory. I think he runs a wonderful website :P
-
Let me elaborate, a uniformed hider hiding plan based on absolutely random(flavor/player list) is the best way to do it.
-
Either your wilfully misrepresenting me for some reason or you didn't read (most likely, but I don't get why you quoted it then). It just seems to me like we should minimize false positives and I don't get why you're angry about that.
You're!
-
Weekend starts suck. I'll be barely around until my Monday (your Sunday night).
vote: all of you for creating 5 pages of text that has zero worth as far as scum hunting goes.
You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1?
As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.
Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny. And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.
-
I think Vig/Tracker should choose on their own.
I find it interesting that out of the 5-6 things Shraeye quoted, none of them actually dealt with the main topic of discussion.
-
You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1?
It's as if that is exactly what we were discussing!
As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.
So wait, you won't agree to the plan we seem to have going? Regardless of whether you want to get into talking about it, yes/no do you think it is a good plan?
Also, why is RVS a requirement for scumhunting? People keep saying this, but I don't understand why that should be true.
-
Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny. And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.
Um, no it's not rolefishing. And I really do think it's a pro-town plan, and not participating is beneficial to scum. Who's okay with the Hider dying behind a mafia and town being unable to identify who it is? Mafia!
Who cares if we don't have RVS?
-
okay, I love the hider plan.
I think vig is usually bad for town, tracker in a setup like this I think is good because it cant confuse us at all.
Add the fact that there the detective/psychologist, aand the hider, I don't see any reason whatsoever to chose vig.
On the topic of detective and psycologist, I have some thoughts.
1) Detective needs to wifom if you get the result of "has not killed" that is a good chance that person is town, so potentially claim to save them.
2) Psycologist needs to wifom as well, a negative result means the player is likely town and you could claim to save them.
The neat trick with this is mafia should only have one player do the nk the whole game and have a better chance to be "cleared" by a detective but they should have a different player do the nk each not to increase "clearing" from a psycologist.
Now lets assume for a second mafia is smart, there is a 50/50 shot for D/P, D can only clear 2 mafia where as P can clear all 3, so they should go ahead and have everyone shoot. Now this means a detective can very likely trust a result of "has not killed" and a Psycologist should not out himself with a negative result.
I think town has good pr's and if used correctly are in good shape.
Why are you giving scum advice on what to do?
-
okay, I love the hider plan.
I think vig is usually bad for town, tracker in a setup like this I think is good because it cant confuse us at all.
Add the fact that there the detective/psychologist, aand the hider, I don't see any reason whatsoever to chose vig.
On the topic of detective and psycologist, I have some thoughts.
1) Detective needs to wifom if you get the result of "has not killed" that is a good chance that person is town, so potentially claim to save them.
2) Psycologist needs to wifom as well, a negative result means the player is likely town and you could claim to save them.
The neat trick with this is mafia should only have one player do the nk the whole game and have a better chance to be "cleared" by a detective but they should have a different player do the nk each not to increase "clearing" from a psycologist.
Now lets assume for a second mafia is smart, there is a 50/50 shot for D/P, D can only clear 2 mafia where as P can clear all 3, so they should go ahead and have everyone shoot. Now this means a detective can very likely trust a result of "has not killed" and a Psycologist should not out himself with a negative result.
I think town has good pr's and if used correctly are in good shape.
Why are you giving scum advice on what to do?
Because if I can figure that out they can figure it out seeing as they are actively thinking about what to do about things...and it allows me to point out what I think the detective/psychologist should do about claiming when the have what results.
-
I like Snow's plan better than Lio's plan.
Lio, simplicity matters because we want to make sure no one screws it up. If we have someone screw it up, who's the hider, it really would be devastating for town.
-
Well this may very well work, but as I explained, I don't see why it would be any better, or why you two are so angry about talking about theory. I think he runs a wonderful website :P
I see that joke. about theory. clever.
My plan will work, and it will be better than just theory-talking. Seriously, it's impossible to slip up or "slip up" when talking about theory. People sometimes hold conflicting opinions, and both are able to back them up with logical reasoning. then they both get all up in arms about how "scumA must be scum, because they refuse to believe that townB's plan will work". So mafia get to just post exactly what they feel about a particular PR, macro-style and it has no bearing micro-style on this particular game. Some plans are good, but in my opinion it's not worth caring too much about. Particularly those enlightening posts like when Voltaire posted what the numbers were for each PR. Seriously, if a power role DOESN'T already know the applicable numbers for their role, then they suck and are bad town members.
Yes with all our fancy plans, our PRs may be working at maximal efficiency, wooo! But they will be operating in full-random mode with their nicely laid plans, and that isn't really good in the end. If you let the game actually begin, then people can start forming reads. Then the PRs really WILL be powerful.
Just vote liopoil, and be prepared to be amazed.
-
Just vote liopoil, and be prepared to be amazed.
This feels like a trap!
-
As far as both the "giving scum advice" criticism and the general criticisms of theory talk, I think we should keep Kerckhoffs's principle in mind: "The enemy knows the system."
More specifically, it only makes sense to assume that Mafia are as smart as town. Given this, anything we can figure out, they can figure out. Discussing it does not help them unless we are counting on them making mistakes, which seems like a good way to lose (it certainly is in any other game, from chess to Dominion to real-life espionage.) It does allow us to talk these things through, think them out, and prepare for the worst. To my mind, we have a better chance at outsmarting scum by talking things through as a group. If you don't like reading me talking a lot, tough luck!
-
I think there was some Robz misleading earlier regarding MXII.
I was the Town Vig. Eevee was the Town Hider.
I killed Cayvie N1. Mafia killed me N1.
Eevee died.
If you were playing that game, any way to know for certain who Eevee hid behind? Nope. And does it matter who Eevee hid behind? NOPE. We were both town.
The actual answer is Eevee hid behind me, after saying in a post D1 to one of these crazy ass plans that he would hide behind me. Also of note, in that game, Eevee would not have died for hiding behind a vig. In this one, the hider does.
I believe Robz tried to pass it off that Eevee hid behind my target in MXII. Not true. He hid behind me. Robz lies = town Robz, FYI.
So, again, Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER.
The flavorname plan? None of you realize that scum know 3/13 flavornames already?
-
after saying in a post D1 to one of these crazy ass plans that he would hide behind me. Also of note, in that game, Eevee would not have died for hiding behind a vig. In this one, the hider does.
...
So, again, Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER.
The flavorname plan? None of you realize that scum know 3/13 flavornames already?
Okay, first I don't get why this plan is so crazy, it's simple and efficient and seems to be the closest to the optimal play we've come up with. Hider is useless if town have no way to find out who they hid behind when they died!
Why is this crazy?
How does this help scum kill the Hider?
So they know 3 people (out of 13!) that the Hider will NOT hide behind, that hardly seems helpful to them.
-
I get the impression most people bitching about this haven't actually bothered to read what the plan was.
Actively pushing for worse town play seem stupid to me. I don't find it scummy because it just seems angry and lazy more than evil, but it is definitely not helpful.
-
I guess by "most people" I only mean shraeye and ashersky. Sorry guys.
-
Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
-
Snow: One thing we didn't consider was that scum would have three targets that they know the hider won't choose: the players after their flavor character on the name list. So this does make the plan worse.
Anyway, there is serious resistance to this plan, and I think it's important to not spend 20 pages arguing about it. It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not. I think it was a good idea to bring up, but I don't think continuing to pursue it at this point is helpful.
-
1. Robz — AGREED (I think?)
2. raerae — AGREED (I think?)
3. liopoil — AGREED (given insufficient people decide to go with his idea)
4. twistedarcher — AGREED
5. shraeye — NO?
6. Eevee — I don't think he's posted since plan proposed
7. Voltaire — AGREED
8. UmbrageOfSnow — AGREED
9. Jimmmm — hasn't posted since plan proposed
10. nkirbit — AGREED
11. chairs — AGREED
12. mcmcsalot — AGREED
13. ashersky — NO?
-
Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?
Basically, I see Snow's plan as a way to maximize the utility of the hider, and it was his first post. I don't see scum coming out of the gate firing with a plan to help maximize a town PR. It's one of my first reads so it's not strong, but it's there. For sure.
And shraeye, looks like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed! :o Steer us in the direction you want, then.
-
Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
Ash clearly read it. He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.
-
Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
Ash clearly read it. He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.
To be fair, I skimmed the Vig/tracker stuff because it started off with "maybe we should say which we would pick" which is terribad. If it changed to "should we tell them what to choose" then I missed it.
But yes, I read all the hider plans.
-
Town PRs are Town PRs. They make decisions based on their own scum reads. If we never scumhunt and just waste a day on all this theory, they have nothing to go on.
I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
-
Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?
Basically, I see Snow's plan as a way to maximize the utility of the hider, and it was his first post. I don't see scum coming out of the gate firing with a plan to help maximize a town PR. It's one of my first reads so it's not strong, but it's there. For sure.
And shraeye, looks like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed! :o Steer us in the direction you want, then.
Before anyone calls me out on this, I've realized this is wrong - TA proposed it, Snow perfected it. I do stand by the Snow read though, just don't want scum tunneling me on misremembering something.
-
Town PRs are Town PRs. They make decisions based on their own scum reads. If we never scumhunt and just waste a day on all this theory, they have nothing to go on.
I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
But the odds are so high they'll die!
And who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions.
People want votes, though? That's fair. They're helpful. Voting for my one tiny scumread so far:
Vote: Jimmmmm
-
Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.
Vote: Ashersky
Ash clearly read it. He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.
Hmmm. I might very well be carrying that impression over from the "you do realize they don't have to choose until night 1" thing about the Hider/Vigilante and the general attitude. Also, I realized I'm getting a bit annoyed here and I probably shouldn't. I just feel like the two people "resisting" are dismissing this plan out of hand, not actually talking about it under the guise of "I don't do theory talk". And given that I think it is a good idea, that seems like a very easy way for scum to derail a good idea.
Raerae managed to not talk about theory and also not come across that way, and shraeye just mainly seems grumpy. I want to know why Ash won't give me a yes/no, why this isn't even worth discussing (but discussing discussing it is) and why, if no, it's so bad.
From the beginning, I thought we were acknowledging that Scum do know 3 people not to target. But 3/13 is not that bad! And yeah, they don't have to consider whether or not to kill themselves, but if the hider hides behind scum, they are instalynched! BUT IF AND ONLY IF WE KNOW WHO THEY WERE HIDING BEHIND.
This seems very important to me, and I don't understand why it is good town play to dismiss it out of hand without reasoning it through. Why is having the hider die without giving us information somehow better other than Ash doesn't want to discuss it?!
-
Snow: Scum know 6/13 (4/12 or 6/12, really, since there will have been a lynch.. 4 if correct 6 if incorrect) not to target: Themselves, the the three people below them on the name list. That's pretty high.
-
I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
Okay, yes, this is exactly the core of our disagreement! Why is having 1 townie survive longer more beneficial than having a cop though? It seems to me like having some confirmed town and having 1 confirmed scum is far stronger than having 1 night of no kill at the expense of sooner-or-later getting a night of a double-kill. (Which evens out, and we are quite likely to never even get that no-kill night!)
-
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
Vote: Voltaire
-
Snow: Scum know 6/13 (4/12 or 6/12, really, since there will have been a lynch.. 4 if correct 6 if incorrect) not to target: Themselves, the the three people below them on the name list. That's pretty high.
But the odds of the Hider hiding behind a mafia member are 3/12 as well! Just because Mafia don't have to worry about night killing each other, doesn't increase the odds that they'll get a double-kill from the Hider rather than an auto-lynching of one of their own! This is my point.
-
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
Vote: Voltaire
Eh, I know mafia does that sort of thing and I wanted to squash it before it got brought up (as those sorts of things tend to be the way mafia makes fake cases).
And honestly? The vote was an attempt to get rid of the "this game already sucks" tone that I've been clearly getting by some of those arriving later to the party (thread).
-
I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
Okay, yes, this is exactly the core of our disagreement! Why is having 1 townie survive longer more beneficial than having a cop though? It seems to me like having some confirmed town and having 1 confirmed scum is far stronger than having 1 night of no kill at the expense of sooner-or-later getting a night of a double-kill. (Which evens out, and we are quite likely to never even get that no-kill night!)
Hider is not Cop. There is, in fact, a Cop possible in this set-up.
You seem intent on the "why" of my disagreement. The why helps scum, but here you go:
While town scum hunts during the days, mafia PR hunts. Every bit of this discussion helps them narrow down who the Hider might be. Generally, that just tells them one less person to target for a kill. But your public plan gives them a better chance of getting two deaths for one kill.
Hider has a 3/11 chance of hiding behind scum, but a 6/11 chance of dying from hiding, if we have a Vig (3 scum + 1 Vig + 2 NKs). So knowing who they hid behind is not as helpful as you think.
Hider is not for catching scum. It is for possibly having no NK one night.
-
Vote Count 1.3
The thirteen guests decided to split up and see if they could find their host. "We need to search the whole house to determine where that sneak could have disappeared to," said Colonel Mustard. "But it is dark upstairs and I am frightened of the dark. Will anyone go with me? asked Yvette the Maid. "I will," said Professor Plum and Colonel Mustard. "No, thank you," said Mr. Green.
UoS (1): Jimmmmmmm
Jimmmmm (2): Robz, Voltaire
Robz (1): chairs
liopoil (1): shraeye
TA (1): ashersky
ashersky (1): UoS
Voltaire (1): TA
Not voting: (5) Eevee, mcmcsalot, liopoil, raerae, nkirbit
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
You seem intent on the "why" of my disagreement. The why helps scum, but here you go:
While town scum hunts during the days, mafia PR hunts. Every bit of this discussion helps them narrow down who the Hider might be. Generally, that just tells them one less person to target for a kill. But your public plan gives them a better chance of getting two deaths for one kill.
How did that help scum, exactly? Like I said, I think it's enormously misguided to think that scum are idiots. Particularly when there are THREE of them, and one would assume the smartest of them would help point things out to the rest.
I don't think a Vigilante is likely. I really don't. You're assuming not only do we have one, but that they kill EVERY NIGHT. Yes, in that case Hider is even more likely to die. So why would we want it to be a useless death? Does letting Mafia take out (AT MOST) 3 of those (because it is possible for one Mafia member to have the number of another one, and they certainly will sooner or later) posibilities really increase it that much? It increases the odds of the Night Kill hitting the Hider by a bit, but that's only 1/4 of the ways the hider dies in the night! I don't think it increases the odds as much as you think it does.
Hider is not Cop. There is, in fact, a Cop possible in this set-up.
...
Hider is not for catching scum. It is for possibly having no NK one night.
This is a terrible argument! "I have a dollar, why would I need another dollar?"
Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.
-
I'll let others weigh in on Hiders. I'm done trying.
I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done.
-
I'll let others weigh in on Hiders. I'm done trying.
I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done.
You're avoiding addressing my point, why?
I'm not really trying to argue the theory of Hiders here, I'm trying to understand why you have very strong, very authoritative opinions that seem illogical and sub-optimal for town but won't actually explain them.
I am scumhunting!
-
Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.
Caaaaaaaaaaaareful.
-
Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.
Caaaaaaaaaaaareful.
I'm confused? I guess I won't ask for clarification because as a group we think being obscure but pointing things out is somehow beneficial because all 3 scum are too stupid to figure things out but I really am a stupid newb here, and I don't understand why an illogical position that seems poorly reasoned that I perceive to be anti-town is a poor basis for a scum accusation. My vote rests on Ash for a reason.
-
Okay, I'm going to take a break, step away from the computer and take several deep breaths. But I think I asked several logical questions and I don't understand why Ash won't engage with me, but will dismiss everything I'm saying out of hand. This isn't me being angry though (although I am getting a bit tetchy, I'll admit, hence the break) but I really do think I made a good argument, and Ash's response to that argument really does give me a scum read.
-
Why have you decided that this is the role of the Hider? You've said it, very authoritatively, twice, but you haven't provided any reason for it whatsoever.
Caaaaaaaaaaaareful.
He's new, or scum. Those are two explanations for his behavior.
-
Discussing it does not help them unless we are counting on them making mistakes,
This is wrong, but it doesn't matter. The problem is that we have spent ANOTHER entire page talking about this. STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS; some people may agree with you, others may not. Further discussion is unlikely to sway people, as you already have made roughly three thousand posts explaining your position. Great, we get it. Now please scumhunt.
I get the impression most people bitching about this haven't actually bothered to read what the plan was.
I read it, and frak-a-lak, I may even like it. I'm bitching about you continuing to talk about it.
I'm trying to understand why you have very strong, very authoritative opinions that seem illogical and sub-optimal for town but won't actually explain them.
I am scumhunting!
Gaining that understanding does nothing to help this game along. You think his opinion seems illogical, now he'll defend it, and you'll further attack his and defend yours ad naseum. This discussion is hereby ended. Save it for the post-game. Also, bollocks...what scumhunting have you done? PR planning does NOT help us lynch correctly today.
I'll let others weigh in on Hiders. I'm done trying.
I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done.
I agree with this; and also recommend that you vote liopoil with me.
-
Steer us in the direction you want, then.
liopoil
-
Vote: Snow
Prolonging theory talk and this, the bolded bits feel like too strong of a reaction.
That isn't even remotely what I was saying! It was a benefits to the rest of the roles based on what the Tracker/Vigilante decides to choose. Either your wilfully misrepresenting me for some reason or you didn't read (most likely, but I don't get why you quoted it then). It just seems to me like we should minimize false positives and I don't get why you're angry about that.
-
Steer us in the direction you want, then.
liopoil
Reasons would be splendid. Care to explain why we should follow you over the cliff, lead lemming?
-
Because it's fun. And who hates fun?
-
FYI I'm at work so haven't had time to read the whole thread.
Re the votes on me: my "suspicion" and vote on Umbrage was half RVS and half wanting to see how he and others would react. Robz would understand that.
For the Hider thing, we need to develop a function that takes username and flavour name and returns some sort of number which determines who you hide behind. That way there will be too many possibilities for scum to get too much useful information.
-
Okay, back, and I'll be back for another hour at least.
Wow, it is amazing how frustrating this game can be, and how emotional it can make you.
Let me enumerate the ways:
1. I still have no fucking clue what "He's new, or scum. Those are two explanations for his behavior." and "carefulllll" are referring too. This is very frustrating because I am, in fact, new and because if apparently anyone else in the game can understand what these two posts mean, what I am being warned and/or accused about, how is it helping scum to explain it to me. I legitimately have NO CLUE what this means. One would assume that at least some of the scum players would be able to figure out what you are talking about unless you assume they are also all on their first game. I don't know, but it seems crazy to me that refusing to clarify whatever this means is somehow bad for town, because wouldn't scum know what it means? It's confusing to me, but you all seem to know what it means, so how can it be secret?
This is just extremely frustrating and obviously serves no useful purpose other than being cryptic and frustrating to the one new player.
2. I thought and still think I'm onto something with Ash, based on his responses. I was trying to couch it in logic, but apparently that makes people think I'm trying to argue the point. I AM NOT TRYING TO ARGUE THE POINT. I am trying to understand his logic because it seems scummy to me, particularly the way he's responded.
3. Sorry I post too much, I'll try to remedy that. :-\
Something about the non-personalness of doing this on a forum seems to make it much more frustrating, at least for me. I'm sorry I've wasted so much of your precious time, I was really trying to be helpful. Obviously I suck at that.
-
For the Hider thing, we need to develop a function that takes username and flavour name and returns some sort of number which determines who you hide behind. That way there will be too many possibilities for scum to get too much useful information.
I agree, for what that's worth.
-
Umbrage, Volt was warning you to be careful because the route you've chosen to take against me could blow up in town's face if I am the Hider. Do you not see that?
-
For the Hider thing, we need to develop a function that takes username and flavour name and returns some sort of number which determines who you hide behind. That way there will be too many possibilities for scum to get too much useful information.
I agree, for what that's worth.
At some point I can come up with something, and everyone who agrees can quote it, then after the Hider dies we'll look back and see if they quoted it.
-
Umbrage, Volt was warning you to be careful because the route you've chosen to take against me could blow up in town's face if I am the Hider. Do you not see that?
No, I really did not see that. Thank you for actually just saying it, all the waltzing around the issue was really really frustrating.
I guess I can see it now. Not sure what to say or do about that, but I can see where you are coming from. But that is not as obvious as you seemed to think it was.
-
Okay, so I think I'm going to go to bed and sleep on this, but I really would like some advice from experienced players who are not named Ashersky, Raerae, or Shraeye:
I still think Ashersky is scummy, but I feel like I'm not allowed to talk about it because
1) Shraeye and Ashersky think that is prolonging theory discussion, while that kind of ties into what this is about, if I wanted to use theory discussion for trying to transition into talking about scum.
1b) Because I guess theory discussion is scummy somehow? This makes no sense to me, I think it's stupid, but arguing about it seems like I'm just going to either make everyone hate me or get mislynched in every game I play. I like talking about theory, I want to do it in every game I play and I think it is helpful. It's why I like Dominion, honestly, lots of theory to discuss.
2) Ashersky doesn't want to talk to me about why I find him scummy and pressing the issue would make his actions more predictable if he were Hider. I get that (see, explanations are HELPFUL!); but it seems like that means I can't talk about it or ever expect to get any question answered even if I think that's relevant. I feel like my hands are tied here, which on one hand makes me suspect him more because hey, that's a convenient way to frame your defense as scum, but on the other hand apparently I just don't understand the unwritten rules or whatever, so maybe I'm over-reacting to nothing. I don't know what to think.
3) I feel like things I've said just tend to get ignored, but I can't call people out on this.
4) I am kind of worried about people not liking me for posting too much, or for focusing on something too hard. But I think this is important. I feel like dropping the issue is anti-town and I should pursue it, but I don't know how.
5) I'm not thinking clearly at this point. I'm a bit on tilt because of shraeye and Ashersky both having the ability to completely ignore me and change the subject and make me look bad for it and I guess I post too much. I don't know, I'm a bit upset, maybe I'm just having a bad day, but I feel like those two think they're in charge of everything and aren't terribly nice about it. The point is, I was having fun this afternoon, I'm not having fun now. I'm going to bed.
-
Here's a deal for you: everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today. How's that? Does that work for everyone?
-
Here's a deal for you: everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today. How's that? Does that work for everyone?
Really? This again?
-
Snow: The desire to end the theory talk is because it's presence can hurt the game. When we're talking about theory talk, scum can easily slide in and talk about theory, because they don't have to take stances on players, yet remain active. Once we're done with theory talk, we're going to be voting, talking about votes, etc. and those are going to be useful information later. Right now, scum can easily slide in and be honest, because it's so easy. Once we get past theory, scum have to manipulate information in a certain way that town don't, and hopefully we will catch them doing so.
Ash's desire to move on isn't saying anything about the hider plan or its merits. Personally, I think it's a good idea, and don't blame the people who brought it up. But we're playing this game with a lot of people who can talk a lot, and if we don't watch ourselves, we'll end up 25 pages into this thread and absolutely no closer to lynching scum, which makes re-reading harder, and just makes the game less fun. It's just in the best interest of both the game and everyone's level of enjoyment to move the game on.
If you want to find Ash and Shraeye scummy for opposing a good plan, that's your choice. But I think they're trying to get the game away from theory talk because honestly, it's not fun for a lot of people. And I don't think that's based on alignment at all.
-
Here's a deal for you: everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today. How's that? Does that work for everyone?
Really? This again?
Yeah, it's been awhile. Like you.
-
Here's a deal for you: everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today. How's that? Does that work for everyone?
Really? This again?
Yeah, it's been awhile. Like you.
Say what?
-
Here's a deal for you: everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today. How's that? Does that work for everyone?
Really? This again?
Yeah, it's been awhile. Like you.
Say what?
You haven't played in awhile and I haven't put myself out there as the lynch du jour for awhile. You forget that you took a break?
-
Okay, I'm not sure what has been suggested since I still haven't read the whole thread, but I propose the following: According the OPs we each have a player number, Robz being 1 and ash being 13, and we each have a flavour number, Col Mustard being 1 and Mrs Peacock being 13. I propose that the Hider adds these two numbers together (mod 13) and Hides behind the person with that player number. In other words, starting with yourself on the player list, count down the number of players equal to your flavour number, looping to the top if you need to, and skipping yourself if you're Mrs Peacock.
For example, if the Hider is Robz, and his flavour role is Col Mustard, he would Hide behind raerae. If he was Prof Plum he would hide behind liopoil and so on and so forth, and finally if he was Mrs Peacock he would hide behind raerae.
This is the best way to do it that I can think of, since unless scum somehow know everyone's flavour names they can't really gain much information from this, and once the Hider dies we'll know who they hid behind. We can come up with something different but similar for day 2.
Anyone in support of this?
-
Oh I guess we'll have to modify it slightly to account for dead people. Skip anyone who's dead I suppose?
-
Oh yay, vote: ash not going along with the crazy plan, gotta be scum ash. Hmm putting himself up for the lynch, classic town lynch or easily faked meta. I'm going with number 2.
-
Oh yay, vote: ash not going along with the crazy plan, gotta be scum ash. Hmm putting himself up for the lynch, classic town lynch or easily faked meta. I'm going with number 2.
Yep. vote: ashersky
-
Aww, I was thinking intro yuma with a vote: ashersky, but hes not here...sniffle...modkill?
-
Ashersky nyuuu why you gotta be like that?
Jimmmmm the topic re: hider is dead, I think, though I think you've got the best plan out of all of the ones I've heard.
FoS: Ashersky because self-lynch could just be a fun way to pick up towncred when we inevitably lynch based on little more than a die roll and a circleyoink.
-
Vote Count 1.4
"How do we even know that he is in house?" asked The Singing Telegram Gril. "Perhaps he left for some reason."
The group hurried back to the hall to try the front door. There was the aroma of very strong stench in the air. "Perhaps the smell is from yuma!" shouted Wadsworth the Butler
"No. I think the smell is coming from your shoes," Mrs. White said.
"What! Mrs. White. I am the Butler. I keep houses tidy. I do not have anything on my shoes," he said.
"Then why do you shoes stink? Have you smelled them? Do you deny that you haven't smelled them?" Mrs. White said menacingly.
"What do you mean, "Don't deny it"? I'm not denying anything! Wadsworth the Butler said.
"Another denial!" Mrs. White shouted.
And with that Wadsworth the Butler stuck his tongue out and went "THHHHBBBBTTT!"
Snow (2): Jimmmmmmm, raerae
Jimmmmm (2): Robz, Voltaire
Robz (1): chairs
liopoil (1): shraeye
ashersky (3): Snow, mcmcsalot, ashersky
Voltaire (1): TA
Not voting: (3) Eevee, liopoil, nkirbit
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
yaaaaaay, a wagon!
Vote: ashersky
-
yaaaaaay, a wagon!
Vote: ashersky
Well, he literally asked for it.
-
So I did some checking on people and posts and such and discovered that our lovely little furry friend has only posted once. Eevee, care to come on in and comment on anything? Additionally, chairs, there's a seat at the table here for you too. I know you've been around a bit but come on in and stay awhile.
-
So I did some checking on people and posts and such and discovered that our lovely little furry friend has only posted once. Eevee, care to come on in and comment on anything? Additionally, chairs, there's a seat at the table here for you too. I know you've been around a bit but come on in and stay awhile.
Err, I've been at the table the whole time. It's just hard to hear me from under here, sometimes ;D
But honestly, I just haven't had a whole bunch to say, especially since we wanted to shut down the theory talk (which is the part of mafia that truly excites me, D1). I could blather indiscriminately about irrelevant things, but I don't really have much to contribute to the hunt per se, except that I think offering yourself up for a lynch is dumb and I think ashersky's worth lynching if a better option doesn't come up.
Unrelated: yuma could we get "With X people remaining, it takes Y to lynch" in future vote counts? thank you in advance <3
-
I'm mostly Vla today, and phone posting, and I just caught up, but.
I largely agree with ash here. This was too much flavor talk pages ago. I oppose all hider plans. The hider can figure out what to do on his own, whoever he is. The big problem with all this talk is people keep proposing hider plans, making it obvious each of them are not the hider, helping the mafia narrow down the hider.
Um, the tracker/vig should and will obviously pick tracker. Vigs kill town always.
TA's case on Volt is good. Best think we have going for us so far. Stop voting for ash please. I doubt this is scum ash.
-
vote: voltaire
-
I really don't get why ashersky keeps doing this.
Jimmmm, how is your plan fuctionally different from volt's?
Also, for my plan, each player really just needs to name 3-4 people. Actually, maybe they should name many more, because of how few "bad" hider targets there will be. So really, each player would name all but 1-3 people. This makes it very nearly the same as volt's, except excluding a few people.
Theory talk as fine, as long as we scumhunt plenty. I don't think we're doing too bad in that regard.
I don't like the ashersky wagon; aside from sonw's vote, it's kinda silly.
snow, this is a frustrating game. People will do say that you think are ridiculous, and often, they are ridiculous. you've just got to treat them as reasonable and refute their points.
FoS: Shraeye, Ashersky, and Raerae for being so opposed to discussion on our PRs. Especially Ashersky, because he often comes up with plans like this.
We don't need everyone to agree to go along with the hider plan. Everyone who wants to do it can say that they'll do it, and if one of those is the hider, then we're all good. If the hider is one of the people who don't like the idea, then no harm done.
-
I should clarify: The FoS is because it's an easy position to take as scum and one that I think is anti-town. Scum wants to be anti-town if they can get away with it.
-
Seriously, liopoil? I know you love theory talk but isn't 8 pages enough? Also, your "plan" is claiming whether you want us to list a handful of people or list all 13 in order yet you insist on that being the best plan. Snow is new and my vote on him was mostly for emphasis. You know long D1 and tons of theory talk are terrible for towns and you continue to push this.
Vote: liopoil
-
uhh, no. I'm suggesting we name all players except a select few who are bad hiding targets, in no particular order. And um, we've had more than just theory talk you know...
super-long D1 is bad for town. Lots of theory talk?.... can be bad if it causes a super-long D1, but there is no reason me to think that will happen.
-
I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is.
-
Okay, so I'm feeling much better today. Sorry for taking things personally yesterday. Anyway, I've got a great wall o' text that I made going through and rereading everything, but I don't want to post many times, so it's all one big thing. Since most of you will probably tl;dr it, here are my feelings on the scumminess of people at this moment. Obviously none of this is all that strong yet. I just read through each post and decided whether I got a neutral feel, a scummy feel, or a towny feel off it. I tried not to double-count people for the same thing much. I've tried not to let this be "people that disagree with me are scum" but as I think talking about Hider is pro-town, some of it may appear that way. Be assured I sat down and reread all this while calm, not while still angry.
That doesn't make me right of course, but it means these are non-emotional attempts at trying to feel out people's alignments, rather than just being mad at Ash. Yes, Ash is still my top scumread, but I'm definitely less certain of it today. Just more certain than anyone else.
-points for scumminess / + points for towniness
Ashersky -23 / +1
Shraeye -10 / +0
Nkirbit -10 / +6
Robz -8 / +2
Raerae -6 / +3
Jimmmm -5 / +7
Twistedarcher -1 /+4
Voltaire -1 / +4
Chairs 0 / 0
Eevee -0 / +1
Mcmcsalot -0 / +6
Liopoil -0 / +10
Please don your hardhats, a wall of explanatory text (and summary of the first 200 posts for people who think it's not worth rereading) will be falling shortly. I think this theory discussion has been good for feeling people out, although I suppose the results at the end of the game may or may not bear that out.
-
The First 200 Posts, an Analytical Summary
Okay, here's my giant summary and explanations. I went up to the post before this because I may want to refer back to it later, and if I'm making notes for me, why not share them? (NOTE: I skipped very short/content-free posts.)
Robz -8, +2
138: We shouldn't have a Hider plan because Hider died night one last time. (Comes out later that Vig killed Hider's target.) -5
141: Explains situation, but why bring it up as a reason not to have a plan then? +1
144: Robz thinks I'm funny. +50 +0
145: Gives an actual legit defense to Jimmm's RVS vote. +1
183: "*Insert me asking a question about the plan, so as to demonstrate that I could be the Hider*" I have no idea what to make of this. 0
185: Also finds "lynch the new guy" scummy. VOTES JIMM. 0
194: "Metas are easily faked." (in reference to raerae.) 0
292: Agrees with Ash that there was "too much flavor talk". Opposes ALL hider plans. Says that talking about Hiders is reducing the number of Hider possibilities. Tracker is better than Vig. Likes TA's case on Volt. (251 which was literally just him saying that back-to-back defensive clarifications looked scummy, and voting him.) Says case on Volt is best we have so far, please stop voting for Ash. On the one hand, this does feel towny to me on a kind of surface level, but on the other, calling that a "case" feels like overselling it quite a bit. -3
293: VOTE: VOLTAIRE
Raerae -6, +3
131: NO CLAIMING!! 0
135: Says won't participate in list plan. Points out bad example of town getting steamrolled with Hider (but mostly due to town stupidity rather than the Hider plan.) -5
198: Has no faith in town not being idiots. (is it bad I want to give +1 for this?) 0
201: Likes plans that involve NO CLAIMING. Asks for Volt to explain reads. +1
202: Asks why Liopoil likes his plan. 0
210: Doesn't want to discuss Tracker/Vig because doesn't want more pages of "impossible to reread material". Asks what I want out of theory discussion. You know, I was getting a bit annoyed at other things in context when I read this one, but reading it in isolation and with distance, it reads towny to me, just annoyed about talking theory. +1
219: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. 0
265: VOTE:UMBRAGEOFSNOW for talking about theory and saying someone misrepresented me. -1
266: Asks Shraeye for reasons for the Liopoil vote, grumpily. +1
290: Calls out Eevee for only posting once in first ~200 posts. Wants Chairs to post more. 0
296: VOTE: LIOPOIL for drawing out theory talk. (Consistent with previous vote, not going to subtract twice). 0
Liopoil -0, +10
200: Doesn't like flavor naming. Wants to group-decide which role Tracker/Vig chooses to be. Points out established problem that my plan is basically random. Points out silly non-problem of skipping oneself. Wants to make list for each person if they were the Hider, picking using flavor-name-number. +5
203: Wants to maximize tactical utility of Hider. +1
209: Thinks we should do whatever it takes to win, not resort to laziness. Still missing fine details of skipping yourself in my plan. +1
211: Likes Vig better than Tracker generally, likes Tracker better in this setup. Wants consensus to avoid town-on-town worrying about false positives. +1
212: "Town's best chance of victory is to have successful PR use. So we should do whatever we can to maximize [that]". 0
214: Any plan is better than doing nothing. +1
294: Compares various plans. "Theory talk as fine, as long as we scumhunt plenty. I don't think we're doing too bad in that regard." Doesn't like Ash wagon. FoS: Shraeye, Ashersky, Raerae. Supports a voluntary Hider plan. +1
Twistedarcher -1, +4
111: Proposes first Hider plan. Flaws could be exploited easily by scum, but I don't take this to be malicious here, just only starting to think out loud about it. 0
118: Points out Vig chance to kill Hider. 0
126: Agrees with scum targeting Hider based on lists problem. +1
127: Discusses pro's of confirming town vs. Finding scum. Sensible. 0
158: Hopes we can try this "not being stupid" thing. Sees no benefit to losing the Hider without gaining any information. +1
161: Suggests only using lists N1, freeing up N2. 0
167: Suggests using timestamp of threadlock post as a randomization method for how many people on list Hider should skip. Still vulnerable to analysis, but impossible to manipulate. 0
226: Points out that shraeye's list of complaints (221) were all off topic while complaining about no one accomplishing anything. +1
228: Says not participating in planning is beneficial to scum. Denies rolefishing. Doesn't care about RVS. +1
229: Accuses mcmcsalot of giving scum advice for his analysis post. I thought it was helpful, I think all this assuming scum can't figure this stuff out is not actually helpful to town, but is a nice way to look like you're being helpful while actually preventing us from double-guessing scum plans in the long run if this is policy. -1
231: Wants plan with least potential for Hider screwing it up, so town can be sure. 0
251: VOTE VOLTAIRE for back-to-back paranoid clarifications. 0
Shraeye -10, +0
221 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268265#msg268265): Declares previous hundred posts worthless. "If whatever we can do to maximize [town's chances] involves jamming the thread with theory talk, [shraeye] isn't interested." Mocks my thinking out loud with strawman "I just shouldn't vote for any of my scumreads then". VOTE: LIOPOIL to get reactions. -10
232: Explains why doesn't like theory talk. Accuses all of us of not "letting game start". Thinks plans aren't worth caring about. 0
263: Says I'm wrong about assuming Mafia stupidity being the only reason to not talk about anything. Commands me to stop talking about anything because I can't convince Ash that I'm right (which I'm not trying to do, but I guess I can see this, maybe.) 0
288: VOTE: ASHERSKY because likes wagons. 0
Eevee -0, +1
157: Points out that in Robz's example, town Vig shooting Hider is evidence that that games Hider plan didn't make the Hider targets too obvious, rather than what Robz seemed to be saying. Says everyone needs to agree to a plan if we want to have one. (although could be setting up a teammate to derail plan by dissenting loudly.) +1
Voltaire -1, +4
110: Greeting, he's a fan of the film. 0
113: Anti-name claim, could see it making sense later. 0
119: Points out that there are lots of negative utility roles here. 0
124: 1-for-1 good for town (true) but seems to want to under-use the Hider. -1
129: Points out various PR interactions. 0
132: Puts some useful numbers out there for power roles to potentially base decisions on. Points out that scum can do this in secret, someone should do it publicly. +1
137: Points out that town stupidity should be fixable. 0
140: Asks about how Hider died in previous game. 0
156: We have to accept Hider will die sooner or later. 0
159: Says he'd go for the list idea, would want one from everyone. 0
168: Makes impossible suggestion. Probably a mistake. 0
182: Has a townread on me. 0
184: Small scumread on Jimmm for flavor claim suggestion and RVS voting new player (me). +1
186: Can think of sensible flavorclaim scenarios on later days but none that make sense for now. 0
191: Wonders if Jimmm's flavorclaim suggestion was trying to bait people. Explains townread on me based on planning of power role. +1
192: Says raerae is acting like established meta. 0
193: Fixes math mistake. I'm putting this here because he's obsessing over what is best for town. +1
199: semi-V/LA for weekend. (once per day) 0
242: Thinks scum wouldn't aggressively want to maximize town PR. 0
246: Points out error in earlier post, worried about scum tunneling him on it later. 0
247: "who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions." VOTE: JIMMMM
Jimmmm -5, +7
112: Name claim suggestion based on names being hard to read (legit). Says he's glad not to be scum on first game back. -5
133: RVS votes Umbrage. 0
142: Joking reply to my "defense" to his RVS vote. I think he's a funny guy. 0
268: Explains vote was RVS + fishing for reactions. Wants to come up with a better (although more complex) Hider algorithm. +1
272: Plan to have his own plan, and have some minority quote it if they agree. This is a good thought, innovative and probably good for town, but might also be a way to get a subset of people to confirm that they may or may not be hider. Still pro-town innovation. +1.
281: Proposes modular arithmetic Hider plan, which is a helpful improvement, although possibly too complicated for some. +5.
Nkirbit -10, +6
147: Points out pros and cons of Hider plans. 0
148: Asks for clarification on Robz's previous game example. 0
155: Disagrees with multi-list plan, loses too much utility, we have to accept that Hider dies sooner or later. +1
172: Thinks my idea would work. 0
179: Points out that we need to avoid flavorclaiming. 0
204: Doesn't think there are bad targets for Hiders. 0
207: Doesn't like overcomplicated plans, because confused screw-ups make the information less trustworthy. +5
240 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268302#msg268302): Didn't consider that scum know own flavornames. Wants to back down from plan now because of serious resistance. (2 posts from Ashersky, 1 from Shraeye, of which the only real point made other than "plans don't work ever" is the flavorname thing, which I find pretty weak.) Weird too back down completely so fast. " It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not. I think it was a good idea to bring up, but I don't think continuing to pursue it at this point is helpful." -10
249: Expresses mathematical doubt about people scum know not to target. 0
277: Explains why wants to move past theory talk. Says that these are likely Ash and Shraeye's reasons and we should move on. 0
Chairs 0, 0 (Hmmm, is giving no read on anything itself scummy? I'm not sure yet.)
117: Understands first Hider plan. 0
120: Says he thinks we should opt for Tracker over Vig. 0
176: Likes plan. 0
180: Agrees that flavorclaims have no benefit. 0
197: VOTES ROBZ for acting towny. 0
220: Likes plans that avoids lurker issues helping scum narrow Hider list down.
286: Thinks Hider talk is dead but likes Jimmm's idea, FoS: ASHERSKY. 0
291: Responds to being asked to post more by saying doesn't have much to say since mostly likes theory talk. 0
Mcmcsalot -0, +6
218: Likes Hider plan. Vig is bad for town. False positives are bad. Talks about how Detective and Psychologist abilities interact with mafia, what WIFOM interactions may take place. Assumes Mafia are smart and works through their best options. This gives us all a bit to think about, and it's surely something Mafia has thought about, nice that he put it out there. +5
283: VOTE: ASHERSKY for not going along with plans despite liking plans. +1
Ashersky -23, +1
225: Won't be around much this weekend. Opposed to talking about Hiders or plans in any way. Refuses to participate. VOTE: TA for rolefishing with starting out with theory. Says we need RVS for scumhunting. -5
235: Says Robz was being misleading about MXII earlier. Opposed to plans because in that game having a plan (that we already threw out for this reason) got Eevee killed. Has Townread on Robz. "Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER." Points out that scum know their own flavornames, which I thought we'd already discussed. This is where I started thinking Ash hadn't read my plan, but I think it's more discounting it for reasons that are untrue. I originally took it as confusion, now it is apparent this is either some weird dogma or assuming my plan is worse than it is for unexplained reasons. -5
245: "I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter." This seems like a really weird assertion to make for everyone, and like a really good excuse to not actually engage with any of this.-1
254: Doesn't like that conversation helps scum narrow down Hider target. Says knowing who Hider hides behind is not very useful. Asserts that "Hider is not for catching scum," twice. Not in a talking theory way, but in a This Is Fact way. As if to influence the Hider into being less useful. -5
257: " I'm done trying. I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done." Refusing to even engage me, just dodging the issue. -1
262: Soft-accuses me of being scum for pressing the issue about the unreasoned (and to me, unreasonable) philosophy of Hider's he is asserting here. -1
271: Seems legitimately mystified that I didn't get the vague hints about hunting for power roles earlier. +1
275: Volunteers to self-lynch in exchange for no more theory talk. 0
284: VOTE: ASHERSKY. Self-vote.
298: "I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is." Still providing 0 reasoning but insisting that all Hider plans are terrible despite it seeming like there is evidence to the contrary. Why keep repeating this without actually discussing it if not to seem like there are many voices opposed rather than a very loud one? -5
-
Wow that was big, sorry. But hey, I'm keeping it all in one convenient post! Okay, I'm done posting for the day now, unless anyone actually wants me to address anything, but I'm fighting my urge to be such a chatterbox.
See the last page for the tl;dr version, but my vote rests on Ashersky, although nkirbit, and Shraeye also seem a bit anti-town to me in places.
-
People will do say that you think are ridiculous, and often, they are ridiculous. you've just got to treat them as reasonable and refute their points.
First sentence makes no sense as written. Post was highly edited. Scum.
vote: liopoil
-
Also, Umbrage gave this post (#277) from nkirbit a rating of 0:
Snow: The desire to end the theory talk is because it's presence can hurt the game. When we're talking about theory talk, scum can easily slide in and talk about theory, because they don't have to take stances on players, yet remain active. Once we're done with theory talk, we're going to be voting, talking about votes, etc. and those are going to be useful information later. Right now, scum can easily slide in and be honest, because it's so easy. Once we get past theory, scum have to manipulate information in a certain way that town don't, and hopefully we will catch them doing so.
Ash's desire to move on isn't saying anything about the hider plan or its merits. Personally, I think it's a good idea, and don't blame the people who brought it up. But we're playing this game with a lot of people who can talk a lot, and if we don't watch ourselves, we'll end up 25 pages into this thread and absolutely no closer to lynching scum, which makes re-reading harder, and just makes the game less fun. It's just in the best interest of both the game and everyone's level of enjoyment to move the game on.
If you want to find Ash and Shraeye scummy for opposing a good plan, that's your choice. But I think they're trying to get the game away from theory talk because honestly, it's not fun for a lot of people. And I don't think that's based on alignment at all.
I think he is severely underestimating how scum-like this post is. This post is just too...what is the word...saccharine?
Consider also, that while nkirbit seems very versed in the reasons why people like myself disagree with this long detour into theory, yet virtually all of his posts are simply contributing theory. If he sees the negatives, why is he adding to them?
I give it a score of -15. nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
-
Also, Umbrage gave this post (#277) from nkirbit a rating of 0:
I think he is severely underestimating how scum-like this post is. This post is just too...what is the word...saccharine?
Consider also, that while nkirbit seems very versed in the reasons why people like myself disagree with this long detour into theory, yet virtually all of his posts are simply contributing theory. If he sees the negatives, why is he adding to them?
I give it a score of -15. nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Hmmm. I did read it as neutral as I initially read through it (because that was a new one today) but you make a good point. I was a bit surprised that I found nkirbit's other post as scummy as I did, given that that wouldn't have been my general, unexamined impression of him, but there is something of a strange narrative there. I don't really buy the sweetness of his tone as a scum thing necessarily, given that he's trying to diffuse the me & ash fight, but is there a reason we should see it as scummy? Is it especially weird for him, or something he does in certain types of situations?
Anything else particularly scummy about that post? I was already thinking I should be looking closer at nkirbit than I was yesterday.
I don't see the liopoil scumness though, he seems like one of the players that has been honestly trying to contribute to town.
-
Another thought: there have been a lot of mis-understood plans and alternative plans. At the beginning we were all feeling things out I think, but does anyone think any of the later things could have been an attempt to make sure that if the Hider dies in the night, it isn't clear who he/she hid behind?
-
Okay so reread and unvote, going over ash again and it just looks too much like town ash to ignore, ash is one of those players that I personally thing I can read well seeing as I got to watch him post quite a bit knowin he was scum, it helped because I have often tunneled ash and been wrong and now I believe I have figured him out to an extent.
Umbrage I also think is town, that guy is working his ass off and not just to look townie but to help town. I mean he's posting in the moment thoughts about each and every player.
-
nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Add volt and I'm down!
-
People will do say that you think are ridiculous
First sentence makes no sense as written. Post was highly edited. Scum.
vote: liopoil
ha, wow, that doesn't make any sense. I'm not sure how that happened. I think I forgot to say "things" and then also typed both do and say for some reason. Anyway, if it was highly edited, then I think I would have caught that...
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
-
nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Add volt and I'm down!
Why Volt? I haven't noticed anything bothersome from him yet.
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate? Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?
-
Vote Count 1.5
Wadsworth the Butler decided the best way to split up the group was to draw lots. "We need groups to look in the basement, the attic, the main floor and the second floor. And another group to stay by the Hall in case he tries to leave or come back. So five groups."
The group hurried to the kitchen where The Cook found some long stem matches. She pulled out her handy butcher's knife and cut the matches into five different lengths. "Whoever draws the same lengths will go together. The shortest start in the basement, the longest in the attic and so on."
Soon the groups were set. Col. Mustard and Mr. Boddy were to look in the basement. The Singing Telegram Girl, Mr. Green, and Yvette the Maid drew the main floor. Miss Scarlet, Mrs. White, and The Cop drew the second floor. The Mechanic, Wadsworth the Butler and The Cook drew the attic while Professor Plum and Mrs. Peacock were assigned to guard the door.
"It's you and me honeybunch."
Snow (1): Jimmmmmmm
Jimmmmm (1): Voltaire
Robz (1): chairs
liopoil (2): raerae, shraeye
ashersky (2): Snow, ashersky
Voltaire (2): TA, Robz
Not voting: (4) Eevee, liopoil, nkirbit, mcmcsalot
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Hi guys, it's Eevee.
I don't understand shraeye's liopoil-hunt at all. What has he done to seem so scummy?
Hands down my strongest read is UmbrageOfSnow, dude is as towny as it gets, not sure why some people are giving him such a hard time. Fwiw UoS, I'm amazed at the effort and the performance you are showing this far.
I'm leaning slight town on Robz for not making any attempts to seem townie.
Snow was wondering if chairs being a null score all the way until here is scummy, I say heck yeah it is. It's not that he has posted anything damning, it's that he has maintained a healthy post count without really saying much anything at all. I do agree that votes are a good way to get the game going, and I would vote chairs if ashersky wasn't going so ballistic.
Vote: ashersky, I think his behavior has been very anti-town and I can't fathom it being anti-town in a way that's useful for scumhunting or whatever. I don't know if I should even try, but ash, why would you be a good lynch for today?
-
Okay, I'm mostly caught up now. Firstly, sorry for repeating a plan that was already over-discussed. Apologies to anyone who feels that this has been done to death, but I want to give my personal final thoughts on things.
Anyway, there is serious resistance to this plan, and I think it's important to not spend 20 pages arguing about it. It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not.
It doesn't have to be unanimous at all.
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
Done. Now if I die and flip Hider, you'll be able to figure out who I hid behind each night. All we need is the Hider and enough other Townies such that it's not obvious who the Hider is to post that or something along those lines. Doesn't matter if everyone presents the same method or agrees on what the best method is. If I'm the Hider, I'm using that one. ^
Hider is not Cop. There is, in fact, a Cop possible in this set-up.
You seem intent on the "why" of my disagreement. The why helps scum, but here you go:
While town scum hunts during the days, mafia PR hunts. Every bit of this discussion helps them narrow down who the Hider might be. Generally, that just tells them one less person to target for a kill. But your public plan gives them a better chance of getting two deaths for one kill.
Hider has a 3/11 chance of hiding behind scum, but a 6/11 chance of dying from hiding, if we have a Vig (3 scum + 1 Vig + 2 NKs). So knowing who they hid behind is not as helpful as you think.
Hider is not for catching scum. It is for possibly having no NK one night.
I strongly disagree.
If the TrackerVig picks Vig, they are doing a major disservice to Town. Optimal Town play here, by a mile, is for the TV to pick Tracker, and for it to be the assumption that they have done so. If I am the TV, I'm picking Tracker every day of the week, and if I'm not, and the TV picks Vig and we lose because we assumed they didn't, I'm blaming the TV for the loss, because they made a dumb, dumb move.
tl;dr we won't have a Vig, because we're all smart enough to pick Tracker.
So if the Hider is killed at night, it will be either because they hid behind scum, or they hid behind the single person that scum killed. If we know who that is, then most likely (at least initially) we will have caught scum, and worst case at least we'll know that we didn't catch scum.
What Hider is "for" is irrelevant. The best use of Hider is clearly not to save a NK, it's to give ourselves the chance to make a sacrifice in order to catch scum. And I would have thought that you of all people would understand that.
In fact, Vote: ash
PPE: Eevee's making a fair bit of sense.
-
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate? Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?
Scum will make a super-long post like umbrage's to try to get towncred because scum wouldn't put in the effort. I don't think this is the case but I think scum might try it some time. I shouldn't be giving them ideas though....
At this point dropping the hider thing is a good idea. At the end of the day, everyone can say what plan if any they want to follow.
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
I'll do this too.
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
I'll do this too.
I'm /in for this.
Scum to chum hopefully forthcoming from me in a bit so I can say something meaningful for you, Eevee ;)
-
I'm VLA until late tonight. Please don't do anything rash until I catch up.
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
I'll do this too.
And my axe.
Null/tiny town read on Robz so far, mostly for Eevee's reasons - town Robz usually has bad reads, he has a bad read on me. Light read.
And everyone else...well, I'll need to look over the thread again.
-
I'm VLA until late tonight. Please don't do anything rash until I catch up.
I'm curious, what are you worried we could do? Lynch someone?
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
-
Hi guys, it's Eevee.
I don't understand shraeye's liopoil-hunt at all. What has he done to seem so scummy?
Hands down my strongest read is UmbrageOfSnow, dude is as towny as it gets, not sure why some people are giving him such a hard time. Fwiw UoS, I'm amazed at the effort and the performance you are showing this far.
I'm leaning slight town on Robz for not making any attempts to seem townie.
Snow was wondering if chairs being a null score all the way until here is scummy, I say heck yeah it is. It's not that he has posted anything damning, it's that he has maintained a healthy post count without really saying much anything at all. I do agree that votes are a good way to get the game going, and I would vote chairs if ashersky wasn't going so ballistic.
Vote: ashersky, I think his behavior has been very anti-town and I can't fathom it being anti-town in a way that's useful for scumhunting or whatever. I don't know if I should even try, but ash, why would you be a good lynch for today?
Also, this is your sixth post ALL GAME. And I'm anti-town? LurkerscumEevee ftw.
-
I'm VLA until late tonight. Please don't do anything rash until I catch up.
I'm curious, what are you worried we could do? Lynch someone?
I just saw a bunch of ash votes on this page, and I don't like it.
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
The worst?? Seriously?? DS9 was a million times worse than this. If you want us to kill you then at least give us full reads first.
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.
-
I'm VLA until late tonight. Please don't do anything rash until I catch up.
I'm curious, what are you worried we could do? Lynch someone?
I just saw a bunch of ash votes on this page, and I don't like it.
Oh, okay. Well, lets not let ash drive his own lynch through before Robz gets a chance to jump in!
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
The worst?? Seriously?? DS9 was a million times worse than this. If you want us to kill you then at least give us full reads first.
What part of DS9? Not D1. D1 had plenty of scumhunting (right or wrong). This D1? ZERO. The best anyone can do is vote for me. That's how AMAZINGLY AWESOME this D1 has been so far. I dare you to go back and try to scumhunt with what's been produced so far.
(An exception is made for UoS's mega-posts, which are clearly helpful.)
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.
Again, zero scumhunting here. This has been plaguing our games here recently. Incredibly long D1s with not a lot of content to analyze.
I know, I was always a big claiming/plans/break the set-up guy. It distracts and hurts town way more than defeats scum.
-
Re-read all for you.
Here's the second post of the game. "Let's skip RVS and role fish. I think I want to be able to direct the Hider. If you are the Hider, let me find a way to subltely force you to confirm yourself and/or do what I want."
Hi everyone, blah blah RVS blah blah.
Here's what I really want to talk about, I thought about this during signups and stuff:
Hider seems like a really interesting role. Either he makes an IC, or he dies behind a mafia / vigilante. Of course, if he dies behind a mafia / vigilante, that's useless for town unless we knew who he was hiding behind.
Would it be beneficial for town if, before the end of the day, everyone posted a list of who they would hide behind, if they were the hider? With everyone saying this, there would be 10 townies saying who they'd hide behind, if they were the hider. This would hopefully be enough to give scum little information on who the hider was. Another option we could do, rather than each person choosing, is to simply go up or down the signup list. This has the advantage of covering the hider's tracks better, but probably makes it harder to find a scum to hide behind.
I just feel that if Hider hides behind scum N1, without a way for us to figure out who that scum is, Hider potentially becomes a negative-utility role. If hider dies N1, though, we can look at our list, and work backwards to see who he hid behind, and know that that person is more than likely scum.
I've never played with hider before, so maybe this has been tried before and proven to be a terrible idea, but I don't think it is.
-
Goodness gracious some of those names are hard to read. Any thoughts on name claiming?
For now I'm just happy to be playing again and glad that I don't have to worry about being scum on my first game back.
NO CLAIMING!! Those, as always, are my thoughts on that subject.
Then, a voice of reason 20 POSTS later. That's right, 20 posts of Hider role fishing theory talk until we get this.
-
Oh um RVS, that's right.
Um, Vote: Umbrage for making too much sense for a newbie. Obviously has vets whispering in his ear telling him what to say.
ScumJimmmmm realizes maybe he should at least act like he doesn't love the way town is destroying its own PRs.
-
If I had to have a scumread it would be on raerae for refusing to work with any kind of plan, since that denies town information, but I gather from your responses that that's pretty standard for raerae.
First ever scumread of the game. Welcome to mafia games, rest of town. Page 8, after hundreds of theory posts.
-
I come in on Page 10 (really, Page 10!!!) with this, after 5 pages of theory/hider/vig/tracker role fishing. 5 pages in which there was a grand total of ONE READ placed by anyone. That's UoS on raerae for not agreeing to a plan.
Which, by the way, is ANOTHER issue with these plans. You find people scummy when they disagree. "Oh, you don't like my perfect plan? You MUST be scum." Remember me thinking people were scum for not agreeing with me? That's this, all over again.
Weekend starts suck. I'll be barely around until my Monday (your Sunday night).
vote: all of you for creating 5 pages of text that has zero worth as far as scum hunting goes.
You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1?
As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.
Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny. And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.
-
So, in summary, everyone is scum for not playing in a way you deem best, and the only thing to do is just to lynch YOU because of it?
Ash, you may very well have a point, but you are not getting it across very well..
Fwiw a big reason for my low post count (and actually not wanting to play all the games anymore too) is that I don't think the topics of discussion have been super interesting for me personally, but my reaction to it is to stick to playing simpler games - not to call everyone scum and ask to be lynched.
-
Since then, at least we had some arguments and finger-pointing. Still more theory talk, of course.
Here's my theory for this set-up:
Hider: hide behind towny people that don't die, create ICs. Help town see that they are town without saying they are town. If needed, reveal the IC(s) to help narrow down the pool of possible scum.
Oh wait, I JUST RUINED IT FOR EVERYONE. That's how Hider can really help town. Creating ICs. NOT catching scum. Because to catch scum, you have to DIE, and there are multiple ways to die. And we don't know who the Hider hid behind.
Tracker/Vig: Choose Vig. Really. Two town directed deaths a cycle. Just don't shoot the Bomb.
-
So, in summary, everyone is scum for not playing in a way you deem best, and the only thing to do is just to lynch YOU because of it?
Ash, you may very well have a point, but you are not getting it across very well..
Fwiw a big reason for my low post count (and actually not wanting to play all the games anymore too) is that I don't think the topics of discussion have been super interesting for me personally, but my reaction to it is to stick to playing simpler games - not to call everyone scum and ask to be lynched.
Where did I "call everyone scum"? I called a few folks scummy, sure. But everyone?
My scum reads from 100% scum to 0% scum:
mcmcsalot > Jimmmmm > Eevee > everyone > raerae > shraeye > Robz > ashersky
-
Fair enough. I notice (apart from myself) you have the guys who don't talk theory on the right, and the guys who do (minus Snow) on the left. Coincidence / do you think your disagreement on the issue might cloud your judgement? Or is it just that scum is more likely to want to talk theory in your opinion?
-
Fair enough. I notice (apart from myself) you have the guys who don't talk theory on the right, and the guys who do (minus Snow) on the left. Coincidence / do you think your disagreement on the issue might cloud your judgement? Or is it just that scum is more likely to want to talk theory in your opinion?
Inversely, I think scum is likely to seem to be against the theory talk...so probably my annoyance at all the theory talk is clouding my town reads.
My scum reads, though, I can define better:
mcmcsalot == first post of the game was "hey I like this Hider plan, do this and do that" and then he had the "this ash is scum ash, too easy vote: ash" and then he was all "wait, that's town ash unvote". That's the entirety of his game play so far. This isn't lurky-town-mcmc, which we've all come to know. This is scum!mcmc with drive by postings. His flipflop on me was too convenient, and he only switched off after he saw I wasn't going to be the easy lynch.
Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in. I quoted it a bit ago. His stab at the newbie was too easy, too. Something scum could do to seem towny. Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.
Eevee == Argumentative Eevee is always a scum read. You know that. Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy. Can't break that meta.
-
Good points about mcmc and Jimm, agree on both your observations and the conclusions you made about them.
I haven't really been much anything in this game really (and I want to say it's largely because of the theory talk I'm just not good at). I wouldn't call myself argumentative, you should understand that your self-vote was very frustrating for town. I like this ash much more, the one that actually plays the game and makes good reads!
-
Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.
But anyway, this is not scum ashersky right? Because he could have just decided to *not* do everything he is doing now to antagonize everyone and get lynched.
-
Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.
Twice. I have been a Vig who shot wrong TWICE.
Waffles Mafia I killed Cayvie and took Eevee with me when mafia killed me. In Innovation I shot the Bomb. The Bomb. I shot the freaking Bomb.
-
Don't we have examples of awesome vigs, too?
-
Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in. I quoted it a bit ago. His stab at the newbie was too easy, too. Something scum could do to seem towny. Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.
The last part may have merit, although bear in mind that this is my first game for a while, and the only one I'm in.
The "throw-in fake-RVS" was because I noticed no one had voted yet and remembered that's what you normally do at the start of the game. I figured I'd probably receive some suspicion from it and hoped I'd be able to get some clues about those "suspecting" me. I hoped Townies would see the "stab at the "newbie" as an obvious joke and scum would see it as an opportunity to start a case on someone.
Okay, well, ashersky should be lynched for opining that TrackerVig should choose Vig. As a former vig-who-shot-wrong, he should know better.
This. Vig is generally marginal at best, but in this game it essentially has Miller built in. The small chance to hit scum with a NK is nothing compared to majorly screwing over the other Town PRs.
-
Okay you can call me anti town for lurking and if you want to argue for lynch all lurkers then fine. But using the mcmc is being lurks scum mcmc is just stupid I have been lurky every single game since my job started literally. I am now more so since I went full time. Now it's fine to lynch lurkers but don't try to make it more reasonable to vote me for lurking since I used to post alot.
As far as my flip flop on you ash, it's because I personally feel you are playing much more anti own than anyone else because your doing your usual get everybody riled up thing which gives you a huge post count, forces the conversation where you want it to go, and creates arguments. Like I said I think this is super at I town and makes you the center of all attention and
Now your lynch will be debated constantly killing future scum hunting. I mean scum hunting will come naturally out of rvs or theory talk, you brute forcing scum hunting by saying hey! Scum hunt right now! Isn't actually going to create helpful scum hunting. So immediately I notice the detriment you are being to town and vote you, then reread and saw there was a bit more frustration in your posts than I expected, and I know that town ash thinks doing all those things is a great helpful thing to do so. Even though I disagree with your opinion on their talk, your opinion on tracker/vig, and your opinion I how to go about scum hunting. I think your just town doing what you think will help.
-
Also, once and for all tracker is better.
Vig has 3 options.
Shoot scum: yay that's awesome
Shoot vt: this kinda sucks as can screw town
Shoot town pr: game endingly terrible for town
Tracker has 3 options.
Track scum: if you see them nk, it's almost as good as vig, if you don't it means nothing
Track vt: means nothing because you get negative result
Track pr: great for town
There best options are the same, tracker is a bit harder to pull off but can't destroy town.
-
Like I said I think this is super at I town and makes you the center of all attention and
Now your lynch will be debated constantly killing future scum hunting.
This first part of your sentence on why ash is anti-town scum doesn't make sense. like liopoil's post before, this was highly edited, and therefore suspicious.
Additionally, ashersky's lynch being debated constantly is exactly why this is a risky move for any scum to make. I get a small townread for the exact same reasons you're calling him scummy.
ALSO ADDITIONALLY, answer my freakin' question:
nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Add volt and I'm down!
Why Volt? I haven't noticed anything bothersome from him yet.
-
Ah, I see I got my ideas of mcmc's reads incorrect. Regardless, answer that question, bud.
-
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate? Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?
Scum will make a super-long post like umbrage's to try to get towncred because scum wouldn't put in the effort. I don't think this is the case but I think scum might try it some time. I shouldn't be giving them ideas though....
At this point dropping the hider thing is a good idea. At the end of the day, everyone can say what plan if any they want to follow.
The bolded is such a contradiction...what are you saying? Hey, that's a super scummy post but I don't think this guy is scum?? Care to explain both those things?
-
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.
Me too! Some people started rather over-the-top protests against the theory talk, but other than that, things seem to be progressing quite reasonably. I'm trying to decide what it means that some people are trying to paint this day as terrible.
-
Tracker > Vig.
Hider should use the most recent hidey-hole plan that was posted because it's friggin' nifty in that it's hard to deduce the hider out of it, but easy to deduce who they died behind once they die.
Ashersky is either the most gambity scum or the most frustrated town I've seen short of people who quit a game - Others argue this makes him town, but I kind of feel like we ought to just lynch him since he has literally asked for it.
Scum to chum (I'm at work, sorry for the lack of reasons) - note that none of this should be considered a "strong" read:
liopoil
ashersky
jimmmmm
eevee
<other people not listed>
umbrage
robz
(myself)
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.
People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm
People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz
I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.
People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm
People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz
I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.
I'm convinced that I must just always sound like scum :-[
I understand the argument regarding why Ash -might- be town, but I still think Ash would almost be our best bet for D1 lynch because being that upset might set his tone for the entirety of the game. Maybe ash doesn't play that way, I'm not sure, but I feel like that's a bad way to start yourself off.
-
I don't think Ash wants to be today's lynch anymore. Do you, ash?
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
-
Several things Ash has done have struck me as off.
First, there's the fact that he's angry at town for directing what hider does, yet he's doing that more than anyone else. He's directly saying that the hider should hide behind their town reads. This increases the probably for hider doubledeaths more than anything else.
He's saying the risk of hiding behind scum reads is that the hider could die without letting us know who they hid behind. But that's the exact point of the plan! I think finding scum is MUCH better than making an IC, personally. The problem is simply that it's so hard to communicate the scum target if the hider dies.
He's saying that "I think this is a bad idea, and since I love ideas like this but hate this one, you all should stop, now." I don't think it's a bad idea, and given that 2/3 of the town agrees, I think Ash's unwillingness to even consider the plan is anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.
Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
-
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
-
I feel like Eevee and Jimm at least should understand what I am saying. If yuma was in this game he would absolutely back me up on this.
-
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
But Scum!Ashersky has the knowledge of knowing that he's been lynched for this before, as town, and so it's less likely he'd be viewed as scum and lynched this time, right?
-
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
As you said, Ash is a savvy scum player. Do you think it's savvy scum play to only do certain things when you are town?
-
I'm fine with Ash's gambits when they are designed to raffle some feathers so we could make better reads or trick scum. Antitown play and being totally unreasonable for no apparent gain is a whole different thing.
-
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
But Scum!Ashersky has the knowledge of knowing that he's been lynched for this before, as town, and so it's less likely he'd be viewed as scum and lynched this time, right?
He has the knowledge that this behavior is deeply unlike by other players, and stands a strong chance of leading to his demise.
Let me tell you that in Mafia XXIV, which I modded, ashersky was making everyone mad by I think threatening to break a rule and get himself modkilled. In a privte PM to me, the moderator, he explained that he had no intention of doing that, he just wanted to see what sort of reaction he would get. He was town. Ashersky doesn't care if he makes people mad, but he understands how people react to various things that he does, and he IS much less prone to anger other people as scum, precisely because he knows it gets him lynched. Town!ashersky, on the other hand, is sort of running a series of experiments with his weird behavior that he hopes will help find scum, whether or not it gets him lynched.
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
Okay, but more recently than Bankers (which was Mafia XXII, not XXIV, I misspoke) he WAS scum in Mafia something-or-other, along with Eevee and yuma. Ash was NOT crazy. He was highly rational and awesomely devious. He fake claimed a scum result on the town Jailkeeper and got him lynched Day 2. I would expect to see that sort of ash here, not suicidal ash.
-
I feel like Eevee and Jimm at least should understand what I am saying. If yuma was in this game he would absolutely back me up on this.
I definitely understand. I'm struggling to think of a good example of scum ash though. When was the last notable time he was scum?
-
Okay, but more recently than Bankers (which was Mafia XXII, not XXIV, I misspoke) he WAS scum in Mafia something-or-other, along with Eevee and yuma. Ash was NOT crazy. He was highly rational and awesomely devious. He fake claimed a scum result on the town Jailkeeper and got him lynched Day 2. I would expect to see that sort of ash here, not suicidal ash.
Hmm. Do you know off the top of your head what game that was? I might have a look over it at some point. For now, unvote.
-
Okay, but more recently than Bankers (which was Mafia XXII, not XXIV, I misspoke) he WAS scum in Mafia something-or-other, along with Eevee and yuma. Ash was NOT crazy. He was highly rational and awesomely devious. He fake claimed a scum result on the town Jailkeeper and got him lynched Day 2. I would expect to see that sort of ash here, not suicidal ash.
Hmm. Do you know off the top of your head what game that was? I might have a look over it at some point. For now, unvote.
It's Mafia XXV, Mean Girls.
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8000.0
-
That was mean girls.
Robz, don't you see what a contradiction saying "ash is awesome at scum, so that's why it's easy to tell if he is scum or town" is?
-
Robz, don't you see what a contradiction saying "ash is awesome at scum, so that's why it's easy to tell if he is scum or town" is?
Point.
-
That was mean girls.
Robz, don't you see what a contradiction saying "ash is awesome at scum, so that's why it's easy to tell if he is scum or town" is?
Yeah, I get that, I just don't see him faking as more likely.
-
If he's town, then he's helping scum (because we're all talking about ash). If he's scum, then this may just have been the best gambit ever because I think we may be headed towards NOT lynching him, and if we don't lynch him for this, what in blue blazes can he do that we will lynch him for?
I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. That said, I'm going to be miffed if you guys are right and he's just doing crazy things.
Vote: Ashersky
-
Unvote just to be safe. It's generally nice to announce if you put someone to L-1, chairs.
-
Unvote just to be safe. It's generally nice to announce if you put someone to L-1, chairs.
I didn't think I had, since Jimmmm unvoted (wasn't he voting for ash when it was L-2?)
-
Ha, I was wrong. Vote: ashersky
-
Vote Count 1.6
Professor Plum and Mrs. Peacock were getting bored waiting by the door in the Hall. yuma hadn't shown up and everyone else was searching the rest of the mansion.
"Maybe yuma already left!" Mrs. Peacock exclaimed. "Maybe he immediately went out the front door and left us here." Professor Plum tried the front door. It wouldn't open. "Locked," he said. "Rats."
"I wonder why he even invited us to this party. Mrs. Peacock said quietly.
"Oh, don't play dumb. You know exactly why we are all here." Professor Plum said with some attitude. "We are all here because yuma is blackmailing us. So what did you do to be blackmailed?"
"Oh, please! I've never heard anything so ridiculous. I mean, nobody could blackmail me. My life is an open book. I've never done anything wrong" she said.
And right then both Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum nearly jumped out of their skins as a loud shriek flew through the air of the mansion.
Jimmmmm (1): Voltaire
Robz (1): chairs
liopoil (2): raerae, shraeye
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, chairs, Eevee
Voltaire (1): Robz
Not voting: (4) liopoil, nkirbit, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
I just finished a re-read of the entire thread. Here at the top, I'd like to say that I've found this day to be quite nice overall, and completely outside of gambits/alignment, I hope that at the end of the game most people agree about that.
Moving on to reads (I will happily go into more detail if needed, I did not take good notes and didn't realize how difficult it would be to refer back when I started):
shraeye came in all riled up about how everything was terrible at a time when it wasn't, but since then has contributed quite well. I have a grudging town read here, and I think the "grudging" is simply because I don't like the playstyle.
TA was pretty null for me for a long time, which was getting suspicious, but has since made a long string of posts I find towny. So town again.
Lio is striking me as off. Slight scum read.
raerae is middling town.
Robz is...an enigma. As usual. I actually haven't seen much either way, and that tends to read scummy. Move him from middling town to middling scum.
Eevee is actually more of a null read than usual for me. That has me nervous, but Eevee is a strong town player and I'm game to see what happens from hereon out. Basically, null and need more info.
Snow is obvtown to me at this point. Something drastic will need to happen for me to change this read.
Jimmm, Jimmm, Jimmm...coming across as scummy to me still. Is this confirmation bias because he was my first scum read? Slight scum.
nkirbit has lots of posts, and only one of them stood out to me in any way, and that was only slightly. This null read has me suspicious.
mcmc I'm currently viewing as lurking town. Slight town.
ash: wtf? I have absolutely no idea what to make of any of this. Before everything exploded here, I had a null read. Now I have a screamingly annoying null read.
chairs - this is my biggest scum read. After a thread's worth of posting not much useful content, chairs jumps on the ash wagon (which, if ash is town, is an easy mislynch I think). I do not like that one bit.
vote: chairs
Organizing my reads:
Scum:
chairs
Scummy:
jimmm
Robz
lio
Null:
ash
nkirbit
Eevee
Town-ish:
mcmc
raerae
TA
shraeye
Town:
Snow
-
Okay, so I didn't post yesterday due to life and trying to not post so much, I'm going to compose a couple of big posts, 1 about my thoughts on Ashersky, and maybe look again at Nkirbit and Shraeye just to give alternatives some thought. But briefly for now, I'm 100% okay with an Ashersky lynch, and here's why:
With all this talk about whether it is too crazy to be scum or so crazy it's brilliant scum, I remember a Diplomacy strategy article I read a few years ago (linked here, give it a skim) (http://www.diplom.org/Zine/W1998A/Windsor/Chainsaw.html). "Chainsaw" seems to have another meaning in Mafia, but the definition of "Chainsaw Diplomacy" in Diplomacy fits very well with what I think Ashersky is doing here.
I'm not 100% convinced by any means, I think there is room for error, but I think it is perfectly reasonable, savy scum play to go completely ballistic because "scum would never do that". I could also understand Ash being legitimately frustrated, but I'm not entirely sure why and I see just way too many good-for-scum-bad-for-town holes in his logic to get off the wagon. I think Ash is currently our best lynch, but I don't know that we should all jump on it unexamined. I'll go through in more detail in a bit.
-
Question regarding Liopoil for everyone not named Liopoil:
Many people seem to have a scum-read here. I don't see it. I assume it has something to do with his posts here as compared to other games?
Anyone care to explain this in specific detail? There very well might be something there, but most of the posts about him have been vague statements that he just feels off. What specifically is off, let's talk about this!
-
Question regarding Liopoil for everyone not named Liopoil:
Many people seem to have a scum-read here. I don't see it. I assume it has something to do with his posts here as compared to other games?
Anyone care to explain this in specific detail? There very well might be something there, but most of the posts about him have been vague statements that he just feels off. What specifically is off, let's talk about this!
I have tried to ask this twice now! Second second. Dodging this question earlier is part of the reason I find shraeye scummy, although I now see I originally didn't word the question so well.
(Hi guys, it's Eevee.
I don't understand shraeye's liopoil-hunt at all. What has he done to seem so scummy?
Hands down my strongest read is UmbrageOfSnow, dude is as towny as it gets, not sure why some people are giving him such a hard time. Fwiw UoS, I'm amazed at the effort and the performance you are showing this far.
I'm leaning slight town on Robz for not making any attempts to seem townie.
Snow was wondering if chairs being a null score all the way until here is scummy, I say heck yeah it is. It's not that he has posted anything damning, it's that he has maintained a healthy post count without really saying much anything at all. I do agree that votes are a good way to get the game going, and I would vote chairs if ashersky wasn't going so ballistic.
Vote: ashersky, I think his behavior has been very anti-town and I can't fathom it being anti-town in a way that's useful for scumhunting or whatever. I don't know if I should even try, but ash, why would you be a good lynch for today?
)
-
I was away all weekend, just caught up.
I don't think Ash is scum here. Ash has come under pressure before for self voting (mislynched or close to mislynched?), and I don't see the incentives here for him would he be scum. If he's scum!ash, he's going to make himself the topic of conversation, and it could easily go wrong. Scum!ash wants to stay active, because Ash is always active, but throwing yourself into that spotlight is the wrong way to go about it, I would think.
I think what we're seeing here is town!ash being frustrated. We just came off Innovation, which had the longest and most unfun day1 I've ever participated in, and he has a desire not to have a repeat of that. So I can see where he's coming from with the "Oh god, if we're going there just kill me now." Playing mafia is supposed to be fun, but this kind of mafia is often unfun. It's hard to re-read, it drags on, etc.
So I really think we have town Ash here. This makes me suspicious of all the people voting for him.. I'm going to go look at his wagon and see who is in scummy positions, and who is voting for bad reasons.
-
I think it's worth noting that we still have TEN DAYS. I don't think we should rush to lynch just to "get day 1 over with". We should take our time, talk things out, look at different angles. There is no need to rush so much, and although everyone is saying this is impossible to reread, it wasn't really all that long, especially if you are focussing on one poster or another. I hope my big list would make that easier too, since you can see where people made substantive posts and go back and look at those without the filter of my thoughts on them. There are 25 posts per page, right? That's not so hard.
Also, I've been reading up on some of the stuff on the site linked in the first posts, and I stumbled upon this, which I thought was interesting (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2797445#p2797445): However, we can follow that up by constructing means and confidence intervals for both towns that win and towns that lose. Towns that win have a mean D1 of 18.94 pages with a 95% CI of (15.26, 22.62); towns that lose have a mean D1 length of 14.14 pages with a 95% CI of (10.4, 17.87); the fact that each mean falls outside the opposite CI suggests there is a statistical difference between the means.
There is some arguing about how much this can extrapolate to outliers, and of course it is a different site, but I think the argument that a shorter Day 1 is better for Town is simply incorrect, although too long could be a problem, I don't know why we're having such a fuss about it already. I think we're having some good discussion, which is the most important thing, right?
Of course this is a different site
-
Oh, also
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
-
Wagon on Ash:
1) Snow, who votes Ash for his opposition to the hider plan. I don't find this scummy at all, since Ash hasn't said the "may as well vote me" bit yet, isn't an easy target at all.
--Ash says "everyone stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today."
2) Mcmc says "either this is town ash or easily faked meta. Going with number 2". This is scummy.. he's the first one to push this as a serious wagon, and doesn't provide us with any reasons why it's the second, and not the first. If you think it's the second, tell us why! It looks like you're just picking at random between the two, at best.
3) Ash self votes.
4) Shraeye says "Yay, a wagon!" and votes Ashersky. No reason, but this is consistent with some of his earlier play. More on this later.
5) Mcmc unvotes Ash upon a re-read. Back to three votes.
6) Eevee comes and votes Ash for being "anti-town". I don't find this scummy because Eevee has a good reason here.. it's a contradiction that town!ash is frustrated by how anti-town the theory talk is, and as a result, starts a wagon on a townmember (himself!). That's a good point, and while I think Ash is in fact town because the incentives aren't there for him to act this way as scum, don't find Eevee scummy for this vote.
7) Jimm votes for Ash. I don't like this vote as much, because it seems to be for disagreeing about theory, which I think is always a bad way to vote.
8) TA votes Ash. I like his reasons, namely that Ash didn't seem to consider the plan, which was weird, and that Ash isn't finding TA scummy for proposing the plan despite it being his only major contribution, which was weird, and there wasn't actually that much risk since the first serious wagon of the day hardly ever goes through. I disagree with the last point, as it obviously does happen (I was the first major wagon day1 of B2B, for example), but it is true more often than not that it doesn't go through.
9) Chairs votes Ash. This is actually one of the more scummy votes on the wagon, as it pushes him to L-1 (although Chairs thought it was L-2), and came with hesitation. "I'm going to be miffed if you guys are right and he's just doing crazy things.". This is an odd thing to say with someone you vote! If you're voting someone, especially this early during the day, it should be because you're pretty sure they're scum! Voting someone, but attaching a "hope I'm not wrong!" to it makes it seem like you're not that sure he's scum, and at that point, why are you voting this early? You know who's most worried about what happens when a player flips town? Scum! Because if Ash is town (which I think he is), scum KNOW he's going to flip town! So they're the most likely ones to express worry about a mislynch, because the next day they want to be able to say "well, I wasn't sure of it!"
10) A couple people unvote just to make sure the lynch doesn't go through before everyone has time to process it. Good move, but null read.
The two scummiest people on the wagon were Mcmc and Chairs. Mcmc voted for bad reasons, then backed off. To me, this sounds like a scum member realizing that they're in a really bad position on the wagon, and they should remove themselves to protect from suspicion. If mcmc's town, it looks like he voted without reading what Ash had said. Possible, but I'm leaning more towards the scum narrative because I think town mcmc would be more careful about his votes than that, whereas scum mcmc has a large incentive to get a wagon at least rolling on ash. Either the wagon goes through, or we spend a lot of time talking about town members.
Chairs is the scummiest for me, though. Voting someone, and in the same post saying something like "hope I'm not wrong!" gives me the impression that you're covering for when it goes wrong. And who knows it's going to go wrong? Scum!
On Shraeye: A few times this game, he's sort of "set up traps". He voted for Lio, and said "Hop along and see what happens", and voted for Ash, simply saying "Ooh, a wagon!" This could either be a town member who's interested in pushing the game forward by actually creating voting analysis, but it could also be a scum member who's going to turn on the first town member who scummily falls into his trap. I have no idea which it is.. what does everyone else think?
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.
We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.
-
Also, I've been reading up on some of the stuff on the site linked in the first posts, and I stumbled upon this, which I thought was interesting (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?p=2797445#p2797445): However, we can follow that up by constructing means and confidence intervals for both towns that win and towns that lose. Towns that win have a mean D1 of 18.94 pages with a 95% CI of (15.26, 22.62); towns that lose have a mean D1 length of 14.14 pages with a 95% CI of (10.4, 17.87); the fact that each mean falls outside the opposite CI suggests there is a statistical difference between the means.
There is some arguing about how much this can extrapolate to outliers, and of course it is a different site, but I think the argument that a shorter Day 1 is better for Town is simply incorrect, although too long could be a problem, I don't know why we're having such a fuss about it already. I think we're having some good discussion, which is the most important thing, right?
Of course this is a different site
Snow, I think the site those statistics come from is such a drastically different environment that those statistics may as well be meaningless here. I've read games over there, and they have literally lynched players for no reason at all. A wagon starts on them, and other players jump on because they want to see what will happen! The amount of lynches they have that are "random" is very high.
And we have had games that have dragged on Day1 for 50+ pages. At that point, that's so outside the scope of those statistics that we're not drawing from the same sample.
I would like to think we have much, much higher quality games here than they have over there. So I don't think statistics that apply to that site are particularly relevant here.
-
I don't think Ash is scum here. Ash has come under pressure before for self voting (mislynched or close to mislynched?), and I don't see the incentives here for him would he be scum. If he's scum!ash, he's going to make himself the topic of conversation, and it could easily go wrong. Scum!ash wants to stay active, because Ash is always active, but throwing yourself into that spotlight is the wrong way to go about it, I would think.
I'd agree if this was the first time he did this. But, people have seen this before, and he had to expect the defense that he was getting from Robz. He knows that, if he's been mislynched for this before, town isn't going to do it again easily. If he's scum, this is a great way to get town reads from people.
I think the argument of "he wouldn't do this if he's scum, it gets too much attention" is invalidated by the fact that he knows people would be wary of lynching him for the reason that he's done it before as town.
-
Can somebody give a full case on Ash? Saying "he's being anti-town" just ain't gonna cut it. Tell me why he's mafia and not why you don't like how he's playing. I (for, like, the 2nd time in history) completely agree with Robz. This is town ash being pain in the butt town ash.
-
Chairs is the scummiest for me, though. Voting someone, and in the same post saying something like "hope I'm not wrong!" gives me the impression that you're covering for when it goes wrong. And who knows it's going to go wrong? Scum!
On Shraeye: A few times this game, he's sort of "set up traps". He voted for Lio, and said "Hop along and see what happens", and voted for Ash, simply saying "Ooh, a wagon!" This could either be a town member who's interested in pushing the game forward by actually creating voting analysis, but it could also be a scum member who's going to turn on the first town member who scummily falls into his trap. I have no idea which it is.. what does everyone else think?
Any reason you're not voting for chairs, then?
I personally view shraeye's actions as pro-town, but they're a null read. Why? Because Robz does this when he's town and when he's scum, and though I like what it causes, I've seen scum do it.
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
This seems really insincere in tone. The first paragraph is just an outward display that you've "really thought about it", the second is an effort to end day1 before any progress occurs, the third is a hedgy justification for voting ash.
-
On Shraeye: A few times this game, he's sort of "set up traps". He voted for Lio, and said "Hop along and see what happens", and voted for Ash, simply saying "Ooh, a wagon!" This could either be a town member who's interested in pushing the game forward by actually creating voting analysis, but it could also be a scum member who's going to turn on the first town member who scummily falls into his trap. I have no idea which it is.. what does everyone else think?
But they weren't even designed as traps, I just do what I feel like (hej, Pippi Langstrumpf). Of course, I always am looking for reactions to posts, to the posts I make, and to the posts that others make. You saying "oh hey, this feels like a trap!" when I was voting liopoil early in the game is an odd reaction. So I kept watching you. You're "I totally agree with you Umbrage, but here's a rational post saying say these other people disagree" was also a red flag. Adding these up in my mind makes me want to
Vote: nkirbit
Why are you so wary of potential 'traps'?
-
Question regarding Liopoil for everyone not named Liopoil:
Many people seem to have a scum-read here. I don't see it. I assume it has something to do with his posts here as compared to other games?
Anyone care to explain this in specific detail? There very well might be something there, but most of the posts about him have been vague statements that he just feels off. What specifically is off, let's talk about this!
I have tried to ask this twice now! Second second. Dodging this question earlier is part of the reason I find shraeye scummy, although I now see I originally didn't word the question so well.
That's what you were saying! I saw you mention something about finding me scummy for dodging the lio question, which I didn't think I had? Or maybe you were talking about someone else.
Anyway, this is why I find lio slightly scummy:
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
Putting up a big long post of summary is something scum does for towncred all the time. I assume lio knows this.
And then generally, we had what I view as a pretty dang good hider plan, and then lio comes in and mucks up the waters with a confusing one where we have to give reads. Who would want to derail town's good use of a PR? Scum.
Now, is this a strong case? No. It's why lio is a light scum read for me, and why my vote is elsewhere.
-
I continue to find Voltaire manifestly the scummiest player.
-
It's why lio is a light scum read for me, and why my vote is elsewhere.
Where is your vote, and why is it there?
-
It's why lio is a light scum read for me, and why my vote is elsewhere.
Where is your vote, and why is it there?
At the top of this very page, in my reads post:
chairs - this is my biggest scum read. After a thread's worth of posting not much useful content, chairs jumps on the ash wagon (which, if ash is town, is an easy mislynch I think). I do not like that one bit.
vote: chairs
-
I continue to find Voltaire manifestly the scummiest player.
Why?
You previously voted Jimmmm for his RVS (and his flavor claim suggestion I think?), which fine, weren't particularly strong reasons, but then you switched it over with:
TA's case on Volt is good. Best think we have going for us so far. Stop voting for ash please. I doubt this is scum ash.
TA's case consisted of: Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
At this point you think he's manifestly the scummiest player based on TA's reasoning alone? That seems like an awfully strong escalation of a pretty slim "case" which hasn't been expanded on at all.
-
Vote Count 1.7
Mrs. Peacock and Professor Plum quickly abandoned their post and ran toward the sound of the scream. So did everyone else. In a very dramatic moment Miss Scarlet and Mrs. Peacock ran into each other at the foot of the stairs. SMASH!
"Out of my way you old hag," Miss Scarlett shouted.
Another scream rang out. It came from the Billard's Room.
10 guests rushed into the tiny room and saw a stunning scene. Mr. Green was standing over The Singing Telegram Girl, who was lying on the pool table, with a billard's stick in his hands. Yvette the Maid looked like Mrs. White and was as white as the cue ball on the table. She screamed again as the group crowded inside the small room.
Everyone looked at Mr. Green and the stick in his hand. "I didn't do it!" he shouted.
liopoil (1): raerae,
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, chairs, Eevee
Voltaire (1): Robz
chairs (1): Voltaire
nkirbit (1): shraeye
Not voting: (4) liopoil, nkirbit, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
On Shraeye: A few times this game, he's sort of "set up traps". He voted for Lio, and said "Hop along and see what happens", and voted for Ash, simply saying "Ooh, a wagon!" This could either be a town member who's interested in pushing the game forward by actually creating voting analysis, but it could also be a scum member who's going to turn on the first town member who scummily falls into his trap. I have no idea which it is.. what does everyone else think?
But they weren't even designed as traps, I just do what I feel like (hej, Pippi Langstrumpf). Of course, I always am looking for reactions to posts, to the posts I make, and to the posts that others make. You saying "oh hey, this feels like a trap!" when I was voting liopoil early in the game is an odd reaction. So I kept watching you. You're "I totally agree with you Umbrage, but here's a rational post saying say these other people disagree" was also a red flag. Adding these up in my mind makes me want to
Vote: nkirbit
Why are you so wary of potential 'traps'?
I agreed with Snow in that I think the plan was good. But I don't have any desire to talk about it, because we could easily spend 30 pages doing so. I didn't want the game to turn into Innovation because Innovation is absolutely zero fun for me right now, and was zero fun for me during day1. I wanted to move on.
I'm wary about the traps because they seem like an easy way to create a mislynch. I'm worried that the first player to hop in is a prime mislynch target, and I don't think scum is more likely to spring the trap than a town member.
Voltaire: I actually meant to vote chairs, but forgot to because I ended my post talking about someone else. So Vote: Chairs
-
I continue to find Voltaire manifestly the scummiest player.
Why?
You previously voted Jimmmm for his RVS (and his flavor claim suggestion I think?), which fine, weren't particularly strong reasons, but then you switched it over with:
TA's case on Volt is good. Best think we have going for us so far. Stop voting for ash please. I doubt this is scum ash.
TA's case consisted of: Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
At this point you think he's manifestly the scummiest player based on TA's reasoning alone? That seems like an awfully strong escalation of a pretty slim "case" which hasn't been expanded on at all.
Also worth noting:
nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Add volt and I'm down!
In post #309, Shraeye asked Mcmcsalot why Volt was on this list, and has yet to be answered.
I hesitate to think of this as scummy, because Mcmcsalot and Robz, if attempting to create a Voltaire wagon out of thin air would be doing the most half-assed job ever, but I'm very curious why either of them are so enthusiastic about this? Are we all missing something they haven't pointed out? Either way, I'm leery of things being repeated a lot without justification: seems a good way to make something seem true if we don't look too closely, whether that's deliberate or not.
-
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
Okay. I see there's been some discussion overnight, and there are some questions for me. I will go back and answer them. But first.
I continue to see this. And it continues to infuriate me as what seems like the only town member who actually wants to win this game. I will lay this out for you, again.
Any plan which chooses a kill target and depends on the full and understandable participation of town players is doomed to fail.
There are any number of reasons. Here's one:
Say we lynch whoever today, but not me. Say I am the Hider. Let's pick a name, Singing Girl. (I'm 13, and 10).
Day 2 starts. Here are a few possibles, tell me who's scum:
nkirbit (let's say he's town) and ashersky are dead.
Jimmmmm (let's say he's town) and ashersky are dead.
raerae (let's say she's town) and ashersky are dead.
Spoiler alert! You can't. Some arguments: ashersky didn't actually follow the plan, who knows who he hid behind? ashersky did or didn't follow the plan and hid behind the mafia kill? ashersky followed the plan and hid behind scum!
So, if I followed the plan, I hid behind either Jimmmmm or nkirbit, right? Because your ridonkulous plan is unclear as to how one should count. So did I hide behind scum or not? But you all have your beliefs about the greatness of the plan and will auto-lynch someone based on it, even though it is flawed.
And here's the rub. No plan is flawless. No plan. Generals, presidents, kings have all made this error. And SCUM WILL USE YOUR PLAN AGAINST YOU. That's what scum does. You all have an expectation now. You believe something will come of your plan if the Hider dies. And that belief will be twisted and used against you to your downfall.
Don't want to believe me about the plan because you disagree? Because you don't like my playstyle as Town? Then believe me because I am a fucking monster as mafia. Mafia gives fake plans and ideas to town to force them into things. Mafia takes things that town says and believes and plays them up to their advantage. Mafia will own you. I know, because that's what I would do if I was mafia.
-
I don't think Ash wants to be today's lynch anymore. Do you, ash?
The last two pages have been much better, but if this plan continues, then yes, I want no part of this town.
-
So because Mafia members are magic, they will manipulate the flips or what? Your argument makes, as always, 0 sense if you actually think about it, other than that you think ALL PLANS ARE BAD, which is inherently stupid.
-
Are we assuming Yuma is one of the Mafia members now?
-
I finally decided to go whole hog instead of simple gut reactions. Welcome to a chairs Full Read session, where you have Town(+) and Mafia(-) points and everything (oh, and this isn't even everybody - I just have to do more work at work):
Jimmmm - +1/-2
1. Relatively low post count, mostly agreeing with other people. (-)
2. Helped clarify a solid hider plan that doesn't immediately out the hider to scum, when other (easier to identify hider with) plans had come about. (+)
3. Casually mentioned name claiming, which could potentially be to fish names out. (-)
Voltaire - +5/-0
1. Tracker > vig, and explains why. (+)
2. Provided clarification on odds for N1 PR results. (+)
3. Supports a hider plan, given that we come up with a mechanism that minimizes risk of scum identifying the hider. (+)
4. Thinks the theory talk was helpful (which I agree with). (+)
5. Posts fairly solid reread of thread (even though he's wrong about me). (+)
Robz - +1/-6
1. Against the Hider planning with a particularly weak reason. (-)
2. Clarified reason and it's still weak. (No additional points)
3. Somewhat sarcastic-sounding post regarding hider plan (which he says is stupid later). (-)
4. Wagons onto Jimm (but only after Voltaire opens). (-)
5. Discussion regarding faking town meta. (Null)
6. Defends ash and argues TA is scummy, argues against hider plan. (-)
7. Argues that hider plans out the hider by virtue of discussing them (I disagree). (-)
8. Tracker > Vig. (+)
9. Says Ashersky should be lynched for Vig > Tracker, but then says it's definitely not scum Ash, makes him look good regardless how Ash flips. (-)
10. Heavily defending Ashersky over multiple posts. (Null)
raerae - +5/-0
1. Against claiming. (+)
2. Against theory talk. (Null) [known raerae opinion, though we disagree on its utility]
3. Pro-cool-no-claiming-hider-plans. (+)
4. More "grr I hate theory talk". (Null)
5. Encourages active participation. (+)
6. Stands by his statement re: theory talk and calls out liopoil's hider plan as bad (it was definitely not a good one), then votes him. (+)
7. Argues about Ash's "lynch me please" post, saying it is premature. (Null)
8. Points out inconsistencies in what liopoil is saying regarding Snow. (+)
9. Anti-wagons Ashersky. (Null)
liopoil - +3/-3
1. Anti-nameclaim. (+)
2. Suggests discussing tracker vs vig, and suggests if we opt vig that we also direct the bullet. (-) [I feel like even if we opt for a vig, which we shouldn't, we shouldn't direct vig bullets]
3. Pushes his plan as not claiming. (Null)
4. Recognizes the semi-claim in his plan. (+)
5. Discusses Vig v tracker and how it interacts, seems to understand why tracker > vig this game, but doesn't push for tracker. (-)
6. Argument in favor of maximizing PR utility in a method that doesn't reveal them. (+)
7. FoS on Shraeye/Ashersky/Raerae. (Null)
8. Calls out posts like Snow's as potential towncred gainer for scum, but says this is probably not a towncred attempt. (-) [I count this poorly because it's kind of wishy-washy]
Twistedarcher - +7/-1
1. Pro-hider planning. (+)
2. Suggests the Vig/Tracker should make that decision themselves, rather than us discussing. (-) [Only a negative because we've already suggested we discuss Hider and he responded positively there]
3. Clarifies with Lio that an important key to hider plan is that the hider not screw up so simplicity is important. (+) [I also felt like Lio's plan was poor in comparison to the simpler one]
4. Votes for Volt arguing he's being a little too crowd-pleasing. (Null)
5. Confirms that if he is the Hider, he will be using the most recently described Hider plan which is optimal scum-minimizing while being easy to track results of when Hider dies. (+)
6. Votes for Ashersky (unvoting Volt) arguing Ash is being significantly anti-town, see post 355. (+) [I agreed with his read on Ashersky at this point in the game, it's very anti-town play.]
7. Points out the WIFOM when Robz argues that Ash self-lynch has resulted in Ash lynch before, so it can't be scum!Ash. (+)
8. Argues with Jimm's mention that we should lynch Ash no matter what, suggests if you think Ash is town you shouldn't vote him as we're still early in D1. This is all while having voted Ash himself. (+)
9. Continues to argue the Ash's behavior is potentially scum gambit due to people knowing about his prior attempt at same, post 386. (+)
Shraeye - +2/-4
1. Against theory talk, even if it maximizes PR usage effectively. (-)
2. More anti-theory, "Just vote liopoil". (No Additional Points)
3. Crappy reasons why theory talk doesn't also help scumhunt, post 263. (-)
4. Hops on the ashersky wagon, voting in post 288. (Null)
5. Uses typos as "highly edited" posts to argue against liopoil. (-)
6. Argues that being polite is scum, post 303. (Null) [Really? Can't we be polite and be town at the same time?]
7. Same post as 6, suggests nkirbit should be on the anti-theory wagon but isn't and argues that's scummy. (Null)
8. mcmc typos again being "highly edited", suggests townread on ash for the self-vote gambit. (-)
9. Calls out Jimm as insincere, with logical reasoning as to why. (+) [I end up still voting for Ash after this, mostly because I'm frustrated with the idea of self-voting]
10. Votes nkirbit based on reactions to the "shraeye traps" that nkirbit suggests exist. Gives a reasonable explanation as to why. (+)
I'll stick to my numbers and Vote: Robz
-
Don't want to believe me about the plan because you disagree? Because you don't like my playstyle as Town? Then believe me because I am a fucking monster as mafia. Mafia gives fake plans and ideas to town to force them into things. Mafia takes things that town says and believes and plays them up to their advantage. Mafia will own you. I know, because that's what I would do if I was mafia.
Please stop talking about what you don't want us to do and set a good example by playing how you would like us to. That will be more pro-town, and, from what I understand, more fun for some people.
-
(I will be posting more reads like the above as time permits; I have a prior engagement tonight that may preclude me doing so until tomorrow).
-
Wow, umbrage, that is awesome. I'm not sure I agree with your evaluations about everything, but that's a great post. And it actually gives me a fairly large townread on you, just for the effort that I don't think scum would bother with. I'm sure scum will manipulate that though.
What it the 'that' that scum will manipulate? Your read on Umbrage? The effort that he's putting forth? The details/reads in his list?
Scum will make a super-long post like umbrage's to try to get towncred because scum wouldn't put in the effort. I don't think this is the case but I think scum might try it some time. I shouldn't be giving them ideas though....
At this point dropping the hider thing is a good idea. At the end of the day, everyone can say what plan if any they want to follow.
The bolded is such a contradiction...what are you saying? Hey, that's a super scummy post but I don't think this guy is scum?? Care to explain both those things?
You and many others are reading my post all wrong. I start off by saying that I read Umbrage as town because of the effort he put in that scum wouldn't. So currently I am giving townreads out for effort. Scum can take advantage of me giving townreads for effort, by just making a giant post. I do not think that Umbrage is scum trying to get towncred for effort in this case.
So, at no point do I suggest that I have a scumread on umbrage, or found any of his posts scummy.
ashersky, no matter how frustrated you are with us for being anti-town, and no matter how stupid you think we are being, self-voting and offering yourself up to be lynched is much much more detrimental to town, if you are town, that is, and I do think that you are.
Oh, and the plan does work. It isn't worded perfectly, and in fact, I don't see why it doesn't just say "I hide behind the player whose # in the player list is my flavor number, and the player after that if that player is dead/me/hid behind previously." But the point is that if it is followed correctly by the hider, we will know who they hid behind if they die tonight.
I need to reread.
-
Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.
Thinking a plan is good is not scummy. Pushing the plan isn't even scummy at this point. I gave my scum reads, none of which are based on the plan.
-
I feel like Eevee and Jimm at least should understand what I am saying. If yuma was in this game he would absolutely back me up on this.
He would, although he'd policy vote for me for self-voting.
-
I gave my scum reads, none of which are based on the plan.
And they haven't changed since you posted them?
-
I am so so sick of Ash saying things like he is the only one who wants to win, we don't do any scumhunting, we don't do anything useful, and then contributing NOTHING. I got so angry, I made a list of all his contributions today. I've underlined anything remotely helpful or useful. I'm preparing a more detailed case in a bit.
tl;dr: He makes 5 posts that could in any way be considered useful out of 30, of those 5, 1 is a legit attempt at scumhunting. And he accuses us of not doing enough!
225 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268274#msg268274)Bitches that we have 5 pages of 0 worth, refuses to talk about Hiders, just votes TA for starting the talking about Hiders.
235 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268293#msg268293)Corrects Robz's earlier bad example that has already been corrected. Despite this being a bad example, then insists in all caps that all plans DO NOTHING but help scum. This logic is terrible and completely unhelpful.
244 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268307#msg268307)Admits to skimming some of thread, but reading all the Hider stuff. No content.
245 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268309#msg268309)First time stating (with 0 reasoning) that Hiders aren't supposed to be used for catching scum. Says we're wasting day.
254 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268321#msg268321)Hider is not Cop. Hider is not for catching scum. Questioning me about this helps scum. Hider plans give Mafia better chance to doublekill (note: this is what we were trying to minimize, it isn't news.)
257 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268329#msg268329)"I'll let others weigh in, I'm done trying. I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done."
262 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268350#msg268350)[Umbrageofsnow] is new or scum.
271 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268366#msg268366)Explains that me questioning about Hider strategy may reveal what he'd do if he were Hider. First useful post.
275 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268374#msg268374)"Stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today."
278 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268395#msg268395)Hasn't seen Jimmmmm in a while.
280 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268401#msg268401)Hasn't offered to self-lynch in a while.
284 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268410#msg268410)Self-votes.
319 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268605#msg268605)"Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia"
320 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268606#msg268606)Eevee is anti-town for only posting 6 times this game (and calling Ash anti-town.) Except Eevee, you know, actually said something useful.
325 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268613#msg268613)Insists there has been ZERO scumhunting and that now it's impossible because there are so many useless posts. Admittedly does put in my big one as an exception, but it isn't like Ash seems to be trying, just claiming it's impossible.
326 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268614#msg268614)Zero scumhunting, we never get anything useful out of long day ones lately, plans and trying to break the setup hurt the town and don't help catch scum.
327 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268615#msg268615)Did a complete re-read, accuses TA of rolefishing and trying to manipulate the Hider in his second post, nothing more.
328 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268617#msg268617)Bitches about everything being rolefishing until Raerae comes in, doesn't actually add anything.
329 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268618#msg268618)Accuses Jimmmmm of being scum for his RVS vote (fine, but didn't we already go through this forever ago?) Says we're destroying our own PRs.
330 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268619#msg268619)Points out that I made the first scumread. Complains about all the useless posts again.
331 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268620#msg268620)Points out potential problem with people finding people scummy for not agreeing with plans. Hey look, another actually useful contribution. But it's about theory. And in this case, the reason I was saying disagreeing felt anti-town wasn't because they presented logical reasons to disagree but because of blanket refusal to allow us to make good use of PRs, which does seem anti-town to me. Note: I no longer had much of a scumread on Raerae at this point, and it wasn't ever particularly strong.
333 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268622#msg268622)Insists that Hider should just hide behind townreads without providing any way for us to figure it out if they die, giving actively bad advice to a power role. Unhelpful. Then insists that Tracker/Vig should choose Vig, just to double-down on the bad advice I guess.
334 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268623#msg268623)Actually provides scumreads, holy shit! They basically amount to Talk theory==Scum, No theory==Town though.
336 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268626#msg268626)Acknowledges the bias in the previous post, DOES ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL GAME! Although he does insist Eevee must be scum for arguing, " Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy. Can't break that meta."
339 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268659#msg268659)Admits he has been Vig twice and shot wrong twice. Minorly helpful in that it helps argue that we should ignore his advice.
340 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268666#msg268666)Wonders if we have any examples of awesome vigs.
399 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268883#msg268883)Us agreeing to what we'd do if Hider infuriates him because he is the only one who wants to win this game (clearly!) With a chain of bad logic, he assumes we can't see any flips, so that we can't deduce anything from a Hider who dies. Therefore SCUM WILL USE YOUR PLAN AGAINST YOU. Mafia would own us, because that's what he would do as mafia.
400 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268884#msg268884)If the plan continues, he doesn't want to be part of this town.
407 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268899#msg268899)Makes a reasonable defense against something Twistedarcher accused him of.
408 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268901#msg268901)Points out that Yuma would probably policy-vote him.
-
Okay, that was a little long, let me put it another way:
Ashersky's entire contribution to this game so far:
Inversely, I think scum is likely to seem to be against the theory talk...so probably my annoyance at all the theory talk is clouding my town reads.
My scum reads, though, I can define better:
mcmcsalot == first post of the game was "hey I like this Hider plan, do this and do that" and then he had the "this ash is scum ash, too easy vote: ash" and then he was all "wait, that's town ash unvote". That's the entirety of his game play so far. This isn't lurky-town-mcmc, which we've all come to know. This is scum!mcmc with drive by postings. His flipflop on me was too convenient, and he only switched off after he saw I wasn't going to be the easy lynch.
Jimmmmm == I didn't like the throw-in fake-RVS post in the middle of all the theory talk, which he was thriving in. I quoted it a bit ago. His stab at the newbie was too easy, too. Something scum could do to seem towny. Also, take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm.
Eevee == Argumentative Eevee is always a scum read. You know that. Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy. Can't break that meta.
-
Case Against Ashersky
1. Ash wants to minimize the usefulness of town power roles.
245 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268309#msg268309): Insists that Hiders should not be hiding behind their scum reads or giving town any way to figure out who they hid behind.
254 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268321#msg268321): Hiders are not meant for catching scum.
333 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268622#msg268622): Tell the Tracker/Vig to choose Vig because it is so much better, despite all discussion and evidence to the contrary. Then repeats that the Hider should leave no way for town to figure out who they hid behind.
399 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268883#msg268883): Comes up with a terrible line of reasoning to decide that we can't learn anything from Hider flips, thus possibly confusing the issue further, both about how Hiders work and about how the game works. Keeps pushing his bad advice that we should have no plans.
2. Ash has been derailing useful conversation. Every time he posts some outrageous piece of terrible logic, or self-votes, or whatever else, he makes himself the center of attention again, taking our minds off scumhunting, subtly encouraging both more and much less useful theory talk because of some of us trying to point out that he's not thinking this through. I've probably been the person most guilty of this, and it makes me feel like maybe I'm helping him win. Perhaps some of his craziness even developed as a plan because he saw that he had an ability to get me to fly off the handle with bad logic and gross overstatements. I'm sorry I helped this work.
3. Ash has been insisting, over and over, that we've made no progress, everything is useless. This is a good way to make us less likely to put effort into scumhunting. It pushes the people who want to get the day over as soon as possible to put less thought into their votes, making us more likely to mislynch. It gives him more posts, makes him the center of attention, without contributing anything. See #4.
4. Ash is not even trying to contribute anything remotely helpful.
See (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268903#msg268903) Above. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268908#msg268908) Scum doesn't want to contribute. His whole play of being angry/annoyed all the time is a great excuse to not help, and occasionally actively hurt our efforts (like when he gives bad advice for the Tracker/Vig.) It also allows him to add plenty more useless posts to the thread, which he points out make it harder to reread.
5. Ash's only defense is Refuge in Audacity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RefugeInAudacity)
Ash hasn't even been making this defense himself, instead letting others do it for him while advocating his own lynching. This is so outrageous, no one can believe scum would dare try such a thing. It seems like this is a great gambit for scum to take, particularly as (based on his play in this game) Ash seems like exactly the type of person to enjoy ridiculous, over-the-top moves if they have a good chance of success. I obviously haven't played with him before, but would you old veterans say that's a fair characterization?
As people have pointed out above, not only is this terrible as town, attempting to get yourself mislynched makes no sense as town either, and if he has a history of doing things like this as town, which seems to be what people are saying, that makes it an even less risky gambit as scum. Additionally, this takes attention off his teammates, making us less likely to focus on things other players are doing.
Additionally, his calling out that if he were scum, he'd crush us and just how audacious that post is seems to be doubling down on the so-scummy-he-can't-possibly-be-scum defense, which I refuse to buy.
It's not a slam-dunk, but I'm completely on-board with lynching Ashersky.
-
It's not a slam-dunk, but I'm completely on-board with lynching Ashersky.
Me too.
-
I am so so sick of Ash saying things like he is the only one who wants to win, we don't do any scumhunting, we don't do anything useful, and then contributing NOTHING. I got so angry, I made a list of all his contributions today. I've underlined anything remotely helpful or useful. I'm preparing a more detailed case in a bit.
tl;dr: He makes 5 posts that could in any way be considered useful out of 30, of those 5, 1 is a legit attempt at scumhunting. And he accuses us of not doing enough!
225 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268274#msg268274)Bitches that we have 5 pages of 0 worth, refuses to talk about Hiders, just votes TA for starting the talking about Hiders.
235 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268293#msg268293)Corrects Robz's earlier bad example that has already been corrected. Despite this being a bad example, then insists in all caps that all plans DO NOTHING but help scum. This logic is terrible and completely unhelpful.
244 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268307#msg268307)Admits to skimming some of thread, but reading all the Hider stuff. No content.
245 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268309#msg268309)First time stating (with 0 reasoning) that Hiders aren't supposed to be used for catching scum. Says we're wasting day.
254 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268321#msg268321)Hider is not Cop. Hider is not for catching scum. Questioning me about this helps scum. Hider plans give Mafia better chance to doublekill (note: this is what we were trying to minimize, it isn't news.)
257 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268329#msg268329)"I'll let others weigh in, I'm done trying. I'll post again when there's scum hunting to be done."
262 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268350#msg268350)[Umbrageofsnow] is new or scum.
271 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268366#msg268366)Explains that me questioning about Hider strategy may reveal what he'd do if he were Hider. First useful post.
275 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268374#msg268374)"Stop this speculative talk and we can lynch me today."
278 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268395#msg268395)Hasn't seen Jimmmmm in a while.
280 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268401#msg268401)Hasn't offered to self-lynch in a while.
284 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268410#msg268410)Self-votes.
319 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268605#msg268605)"Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia"
320 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268606#msg268606)Eevee is anti-town for only posting 6 times this game (and calling Ash anti-town.) Except Eevee, you know, actually said something useful.
325 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268613#msg268613)Insists there has been ZERO scumhunting and that now it's impossible because there are so many useless posts. Admittedly does put in my big one as an exception, but it isn't like Ash seems to be trying, just claiming it's impossible.
326 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268614#msg268614)Zero scumhunting, we never get anything useful out of long day ones lately, plans and trying to break the setup hurt the town and don't help catch scum.
327 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268615#msg268615)Did a complete re-read, accuses TA of rolefishing and trying to manipulate the Hider in his second post, nothing more.
328 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268617#msg268617)Bitches about everything being rolefishing until Raerae comes in, doesn't actually add anything.
329 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268618#msg268618)Accuses Jimmmmm of being scum for his RVS vote (fine, but didn't we already go through this forever ago?) Says we're destroying our own PRs.
330 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268619#msg268619)Points out that I made the first scumread. Complains about all the useless posts again.
331 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268620#msg268620)Points out potential problem with people finding people scummy for not agreeing with plans. Hey look, another actually useful contribution. But it's about theory. And in this case, the reason I was saying disagreeing felt anti-town wasn't because they presented logical reasons to disagree but because of blanket refusal to allow us to make good use of PRs, which does seem anti-town to me. Note: I no longer had much of a scumread on Raerae at this point, and it wasn't ever particularly strong.
333 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268622#msg268622)Insists that Hider should just hide behind townreads without providing any way for us to figure it out if they die, giving actively bad advice to a power role. Unhelpful. Then insists that Tracker/Vig should choose Vig, just to double-down on the bad advice I guess.
334 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268623#msg268623)Actually provides scumreads, holy shit! They basically amount to Talk theory==Scum, No theory==Town though.
336 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268626#msg268626)Acknowledges the bias in the previous post, DOES ACTUAL SCUMHUNTING FOR THE FIRST TIME ALL GAME! Although he does insist Eevee must be scum for arguing, " Whether it is fair or true, you come off scummy when you fight, and towny when you buddy. Can't break that meta."
339 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268659#msg268659)Admits he has been Vig twice and shot wrong twice. Minorly helpful in that it helps argue that we should ignore his advice.
340 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268666#msg268666)Wonders if we have any examples of awesome vigs.
399 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268883#msg268883)Us agreeing to what we'd do if Hider infuriates him because he is the only one who wants to win this game (clearly!) With a chain of bad logic, he assumes we can't see any flips, so that we can't deduce anything from a Hider who dies. Therefore SCUM WILL USE YOUR PLAN AGAINST YOU. Mafia would own us, because that's what he would do as mafia.
400 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268884#msg268884)If the plan continues, he doesn't want to be part of this town.
407 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268899#msg268899)Makes a reasonable defense against something Twistedarcher accused him of.
408 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268901#msg268901)Points out that Yuma would probably policy-vote him.
A lot of this is true, but you've buried some lies in there. I'll bold one for you.
Show me how that post is the same as "talk theory = scum and no theory = town." That's the second time someone mischaracterized that post that way. Yes, I complained about theory ad naseum. I did not equate that with scum.
-
I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is.
I somehow missed this one in my big index above. It's interesting that he claims to love plans, and yet after this is constantly arguing that all plans are awful and do nothing but help scum.
It's also interesting that he makes an argument from authority here, like he's the expert on crazy plans, but has no logic to back up why it should be bad, and dodges or puts up a wall of bullshit when pressed.
And if he loves plans so much, why should we doubt that when he suddenly acts extremely anti-town and that would point at him being either extremely crazy/audacious scum or really bad, poorly thought out town, we are supposed to assume he's poorly thought out town rather than brilliant scum.
-
I would point out that the last three pages where you all discuss me has been much, much, much more useful to town than the 14 that came before it building your plan.
I think the stances people have taken on me, the people conspicuously quiet, the ones that defend me, the ones that think I'm scum...that's all useful stuff to analyze once you see my flip and know if I'm town or mafia.
-
I think that given how much I love both claiming AND plans, the fact that I am against this should be a clear sign just how bad it is.
I somehow missed this one in my big index above. It's interesting that he claims to love plans, and yet after this is constantly arguing that all plans are awful and do nothing but help scum.
It's also interesting that he makes an argument from authority here, like he's the expert on crazy plans, but has no logic to back up why it should be bad, and dodges or puts up a wall of bullshit when pressed.
And if he loves plans so much, why should we doubt that when he suddenly acts extremely anti-town and that would point at him being either extremely crazy/audacious scum or really bad, poorly thought out town, we are supposed to assume he's poorly thought out town rather than brilliant scum.
Go read the opening of Masons and Monks.
In that game, I had a plan. It would have caught scum, it turns out, although we couldn't know that at the time. Everyone lambasted it, told me how bad it was for town. I fought for the plan. We got steamrolled by mafia.
Now, given that experience, I've always been super aware of the possibility of plans and such.
Let me ask you, and all your planners out there:
If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?
I mean, Cops catch scum right? Trackers/Watchers catch scum. But even then, it's not 100%. Mean Girls, I track mcmc, catch scum. Whoops, nope, I lied.
So now, you think you have this plan where you can just auto-lynch someone based on a numbering system that is inherently flawed (due to being undefined) and boom scumdeadbebopboop. But it doesn't work that way. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
-
The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.
-
Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!
Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.
-
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
-
1. Ash wants to minimize the usefulness of town power roles.
Nope. I want to MAXIMIZE the usefulness of Town PRs and MINIMIZE the amount of power we give scum over them.
2. Ash has been derailing useful conversation.
Nope. All the theory/planning talk is useless conversation, and I'm bringing you all back to useful conversation. I'm derailing useless in exchange for useful.
3. Ash has been insisting, over and over, that we've made no progress, everything is useless.
Nope. Since you've all focused on reads (mostly of me, but by extension, how people view me), we've made progress. That stuff is useful.
4. Ash is not even trying to contribute anything remotely helpful.
Nope. I've contributed a lot. Some of it is ire and rage at the plan. Mostly it's giving you all something useful to talk about that doesn't help scum defeat us. Also, a few reads based on what I've noticed.
5. Ash's only defense is Refuge in Audacity (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RefugeInAudacity)
Nope. I haven't defended myself against anything (yet) because I'm guilty of nothing. Fancy quote, by the way. Why would town feel the need to quote outside sources to prop up their straw man?
Sorry UoS, I think you wrote yourself into a corner. You went from awesomely zealous newbie into overreaching scum in a few angry posts.
-
The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.
Do people even read?
If I am #13 on the list and I am flavor #10, tell me who I hide behind. I have two legitimate answers for you which are both "correct" under your plan, and that is just one of many reasons WHY IT DOES NOT WORK.
You MAY incorrectly lynch people based on a flawed plan. That's why I am fighting so hard.
-
Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!
Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.
Because they aren't broken. They can be fake-claimed. They can be Godfathered.
A role that insta-catches scum with no drawbacks (that's a Hider with a foolproof plan, btw) is broken.
-
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
That's fine.
I am playing how I want everyone else to play. Stop thinking about your egos, stop thinking you are all so perfect, and start thinking about what we need to do to win this game.
-
The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.
Do people even read?
If I am #13 on the list and I am flavor #10, tell me who I hide behind. I have two legitimate answers for you which are both "correct" under your plan, and that is just one of many reasons WHY IT DOES NOT WORK.
You MAY incorrectly lynch people based on a flawed plan. That's why I am fighting so hard.
If you bolded the plan as many have there would be no confusion.
You have yet to say why the plan is bad other than its not what hider is "supposed" to do. You get why people don't take that as gospel?
-
Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!
Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.
Eevee, do me a huge favor. After my flip, after the lynch, go back to Masons and Monks, and read that argument you and I had at the start of D2 (or D3, whenever it was that I said let's decide to lynch me first and then scumhunt). Read that conversation we had about the role of VTs and town members in general in a game and how they help town win games. We were both town that game. We had very divergent beliefs. But we both were doing what we felt was best to help town win this game.
-
The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.
Do people even read?
If I am #13 on the list and I am flavor #10, tell me who I hide behind. I have two legitimate answers for you which are both "correct" under your plan, and that is just one of many reasons WHY IT DOES NOT WORK.
You MAY incorrectly lynch people based on a flawed plan. That's why I am fighting so hard.
If you bolded the plan as many have there would be no confusion.
You have yet to say why the plan is bad other than its not what hider is "supposed" to do. You get why people don't take that as gospel?
How does BOLD fix things, TA?
You are blinded by your own greatness.
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
-
Vote Count 1.8
The Singing Telegram Girl had her eyes closed. She looked like she was sleeping or dead. Either one. Either way she looked very peaceful. At she did until Mr. Green threw a glass of wine in her face. She opened her eyes with a start and a piercing glare. The rest of the crowd looked at Mr. Green in shock.
"Well, I had to stop her from sleeping" Mr. Green said.
"What made you faint my dear?" Col. Mustard said in his most sympathetic voice.
"It... it was... it was this feeling of despair. It just overcame me as I looked at his picture." The Singing Telegram Girl said pointing to a picture of yuma on the wall. It was an elegant picture of the man, the legend, the myth. He sat in a large black, plush chair. At his side he was petting a beautiful cat. You could almost hear him say "dance muppets dance!"
"That man! If he were in this room right now I would kill him!" Col. Mustard said.
Everyone gasped with surprise at the very thought. yuma was kinda a jerk sometimes and he was blackmailing them, but it wasn't worthy of death. Was it?
"If. I said if..." Col. Mustard explained.
liopoil (1): raerae,
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (1): Robz
chairs (1): nkiribit
nkirbit (1): shraeye
Robz (1): chairs
Not voting: (3) liopoil, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
Also, for those of you keeping track, this was an L-1 vote with NO ANNOUNCEMENT OR INTENT MENTIONED.
Add it to your scummy actions tally, folks.
-
Vote Count 1.8
{flavor to be inserted}
liopoil (1): raerae,
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (1): Robz
chairs (1): nkiribit
nkirbit (1): shraeye
Robz (1): chairs
Not voting: (3) liopoil, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
You are missing someone, I think, yuma. I was at L-2 before Voltaire.
-
I'll double check, but I believe that chairs unvoted to move to Robz so you were actually at L-3
-
The plan only works because there I a list of flavor names 1-13. Normally the hider plan would greatly increase the risk of two night kills. Here it doesn't.
Do people even read?
If I am #13 on the list and I am flavor #10, tell me who I hide behind. I have two legitimate answers for you which are both "correct" under your plan, and that is just one of many reasons WHY IT DOES NOT WORK.
You MAY incorrectly lynch people based on a flawed plan. That's why I am fighting so hard.
If you bolded the plan as many have there would be no confusion.
You have yet to say why the plan is bad other than its not what hider is "supposed" to do. You get why people don't take that as gospel?
How does BOLD fix things, TA?
You are blinded by your own greatness.
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
I don't have any problems understanding the instructions. They seem very clear to me. Not sure what my greatness has to do with this, though.
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
-
I'll double check, but I believe that chairs unvoted to move to Robz so you were actually at L-3
Oh. If that's correct, I retract my statement of scummy action by Voltaire.
-
I don't have any problems understanding the instructions. They seem very clear to me. Not sure what my greatness has to do with this, though.
Right, you clearly understand them to mean one thing. I may understand them to mean another. Liopoil is also correct that it could be clarified.
The fact that it hasn't up until now though, you have to see how if I can find such a simple flaw, there must be others?
It still stands that if I am the Hider, and I follow the plan, you still don't know if I hid behind Jimmmmm or nkirbit.
-
This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
No, it turns the Hider into a Mod-Confirmed Results Cop who dies in exchange for the guilty result.
How many Mod-Confirmed Results roles do you know, other than Innocent Child?
-
If you are #13 on the list, and flavor #10, you would start yourself on the player roster, then count off ten. So you'd hide behind the 10th person on the sign up roster. That's how I understood it.
Ash, is your main problem with the plan itself, the discussion the plan has caused, or both?
-
If you are #13 on the list, and flavor #10, you would start yourself on the player roster, then count off ten. So you'd hide behind the 10th person on the sign up roster. That's how I understood it.
Ash, is your main problem with the plan itself, the discussion the plan has caused, or both?
"You would start with yourself" is the key issue here. That's how you end up at #9 or #10 on the person in the roster. Do you include yourself in that count. Maybe. Either is correct.
My main problem is with having a plan. This plan is just as bad as any other plan. Is there a plan out there that can exploit the Hider's power? Probably. Is this it? Nope.
Having the plan has led to pages and pages of talk about the plan, not about the game, or the players in the game. Look, even I am doing it, even though I don't want to do it. UoS wants to say I distracted from the game, but it is this plan that has.
What if the Hider doesn't want a plan? Anyone think about that? What if the Hider chooses not to hide at all? Hiders aren't compulsory. There are so many variables. The plan is a distraction at best and destructive at worst.
-
I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum. I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective. I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).
Just because it could work doesn't mean it's good.
Just like even though a number of folks agree with it doesn't make it a good plan (as TA would have you believe). A lot of people believed in a lot of things that turned out to be terrible, terrible ideas.
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Interesting post here. The first bit reads quite a bit scummy to me. It's saying "If I were scum, I would do this thing (that I'm not doing and a lot of other people are doing)". It contributes nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, but is supposed to give you a subliminal message that Lio isn't scum, because he's not doing the scummy thing, and all these other people are scummy. Writing a sentence that attempts to make yourself look towny and half of the other players in the game look scummy is quite impressive.
Vote: Liopoil
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Good question.
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Interesting post here. The first bit reads quite a bit scummy to me. It's saying "If I were scum, I would do this thing (that I'm not doing and a lot of other people are doing)". It contributes nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, but is supposed to give you a subliminal message that Lio isn't scum, because he's not doing the scummy thing, and all these other people are scummy. Writing a sentence that attempts to make yourself look towny and half of the other players in the game look scummy is quite impressive.
Vote: Liopoil
I feel there have been a few divergent strings of scumminess tied to liopoil so far this game.
I know one point was that he came in with a new version of the plan when the old version seemed okay to folks, and someone felt that was purposefully added confusion. I believe shraeye had a bit about liopoil being scummy. And there's this odd post about me (I see what you are seeing, nkirbit).
-
Post count. You know, since I don't contribute.
Robz - 23
raerae - 21
liopoil - 21
TA - 29
shraeye - 16
Eevee - 23
Voltaire - 45
UoS - 69
Jimmmmm - 21
nkirbit - 25
chairs - 19
mcmc - 15
ashersky - 59
-
That includes pre-game. I think what sticks out is that there are no obvious lurkers. I'm also not leading the pack, which is new, although I had a late start given the weekend.
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Interesting post here. The first bit reads quite a bit scummy to me. It's saying "If I were scum, I would do this thing (that I'm not doing and a lot of other people are doing)". It contributes nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, but is supposed to give you a subliminal message that Lio isn't scum, because he's not doing the scummy thing, and all these other people are scummy. Writing a sentence that attempts to make yourself look towny and half of the other players in the game look scummy is quite impressive.
Vote: Liopoil
I don't say anything about what I would do if I was scum at all! and it also doesn't imply that other people are scummy, in fact, it implies that ashersky is towny, which he is. The post does imply that I am town, because scum does not want to lynch scum. So, you're voting me because I claimed town in a way that makes you think I am planting subliminal messages in people's brains?
Oh, yeah, you guys are getting verrrrrrry sleeeeeepy btw. forgot to say that BEFORE I start brainwashing you.
-
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
-
There's no more than one vote of any other player but me. That's interesting.
-
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
Sorry, I had to do work, then my hour commute, then play a MUD. I think the rest of those rereads I promised are going to have to be tomorrow :(
-
There's no more than one vote of any other player but me. That's interesting.
I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.
-
Everyone should keep in mind that your mod is starting his 7-on schedule and will have limited availability for the next week. mail-mi will continue to perform vote counts as he sees fit--which I will continue to back edit with flavor. However, no one else is authorized to lock the thread--except in situations involving the Civility Pledge--so feel free to ignore any unauthorized thread locks after a hammer vote is cast. Again this is intentional as I would like to have some amount of twilight time.
Also FYI, I have authorized the mafia quicktopic to be unlocked beginning at twilight--once it has been firmly established that a hammer vote was indeed cast--allowing them to start their communication earlier than usual.
-
What's a MUD?
-
What's a MUD?
Text-based MMO - think world of warcraft without graphics. Usually played via telnet.
not terribly relevant to Mafia, I'm afraid.
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.
We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.
That's not what I meant at all. I don't know about you, but I don't think as Town I'll ever be certain that someone is scum absent some sort of mod confirmation, so for me when comparing possible lynches you have to consider the likelihood of each player beings scum, but also how much it will help the Town if they are and how much it will hurt the Town if they aren't. If we lynch ash and he's Town, that will be bad compared to lynching scum, but as a consolation we will be able to move on from this, and not, say, come back to it tomorrow and the next day etc until we finally do decide to lynch him, and also we won't have to worry about him misusing a PR.
-
What's a MUD?
Text-based MMO - think world of warcraft without graphics. Usually played via telnet.
not terribly relevant to Mafia, I'm afraid.
Still cool. I did WOW back in the day.
-
So you've mentioned three problems you seems to have with the "plan".
1. The Hider might not cooperate.
Well, you know, that's kind of the point. If someone like you was NKed and flipped Hider, we'd have absolutely no idea what that meant. But if someone who had committed to Hiding in a particular way was NKed and flipped Hider, then I'd trust them to uphold what they committed to do.
2. You don't understand the plan?
Allow me to explain it again for you. It's quite simple really. You start at your name on the signup list. That's name 0. You then go down to first name below yours who is not dead, yourself, or someone you've already hidden behind, looping back to the top of the list if necessary. That's name 1. You continue this until you get to name x, where x is the number next to your flavour name. You hide behind name x. If you get to the point where you've hidden behind every other player... actually nevermind you'd be dead by then.
3. The plan is not flawless, and scum will manipulate it.
Well yeah, it's dependent on the competence of Town players, but really, it's simple enough that if we can't figure it out then we don't deserve to win. Scum will manipulate it? Maybe. But I really don't see a way they could if the Town players involved actually follow it properly. Maybe you don't agree with someone whose alignment you don't know coming up with a plan for everyone to follow. You'll note that I didn't demand everyone to do the same thing as me, I just said what I would do if I was the Hider, so that Town would have that information after I die, and encouraged others to do something similar, coming up with their own plan if they dislike mine.
Anyway, why are we even talking about this? Oh right, you brought it up again. You say you're the only Townie trying to win this game? You must realise that it's extremely possible that a Town aligned player will die with absolute knowledge that someone is scum. We're trying to be able to obtain that knowledge, whereas you're trying to make sure we don't. I just don't see it.
-
Vote Count 1.9
"Wait. If you two are here. Who is guarding the door?" asked The Cop pointing to Professor Plum and Mrs. Peacock. The two guards looked at each other guiltily and shrugged their shoulders.
"We thought someone was in danger," said Mrs. Peacock.
"I thought I had recognized the scream and came running without a thought," said Professor Plum. "You see we have perfect alibis and have explained everything."
"You don't have to," said The Cop.
"We don't? Are you sure?" the two members of the party said at the same time.
"Of course. This is America. It's a free country, don't you know that?" answered The Cop.
liopoil (2): raerae, nkirbit
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (1): Robz
nkirbit (1): shraeye
Robz (1): chairs
Not voting: (3) liopoil, mcmcsalot, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 10 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Oh, and the plan does work. It isn't worded perfectly, and in fact, I don't see why it doesn't just say "I hide behind the player whose # in the player list is my flavor number, and the player after that if that player is dead/me/hid behind previously." But the point is that if it is followed correctly by the hider, we will know who they hid behind if they die tonight.
Because if it's only dependent on flavour numbers then scum will have a much easier time figuring who's going to be hidden behind. Anyway, as I said, if you don't quite agree with how I've worded, feel free to come up with something different for yourself.
-
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.
You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.
Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.
-
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?
It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"
If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!
-
If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?
This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"
-
If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?
This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"
KC/Goons/Masq can be broken up by a number of things, as has been shown.
The only thing that defeats the perfect Hider plan is...nothing. You can't kill the Hider directly.
If the Hider is killed by hiding behind the Vig, what happens?
-
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.
You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.
Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.
What willingness to self-vote? I already self-voted. I can't continue to have willingness to do it. It's already done.
And why should my willingness to self-vote have any affect on your scumhunting? Just ignore it if you don't like it.
I do believe I'm very good at being scum. If I was scum in this game, I'd be sitting back and enjoying the show. I believe that's what they are doing now. I'm forcing them to either help lynch me, or let the game stall. But at least they can't keep getting clues as to who the Hider is.
UoS built a case on me. Cool. I responded. Also cool. Folks can believe one or the other. No biggie there. Not seeing the big deal.
You are free to have an "actual scumread" on me now. Thanks for pointing out your previous scumread on me was faked.
-
If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?
This is akin to saying, "If KC/Goons/Masquerade worked, why isn't there something about it in the FAQ? Huh?? (Wait, where'd my deck go?)"
KC/Goons/Masq can be broken up by a number of things, as has been shown.
The only thing that defeats the perfect Hider plan is...nothing. You can't kill the Hider directly.
If the Hider is killed by hiding behind the Vig, what happens?
On the very remote chance we have a vig (everyone who has spoken about it but you has been against it) they find a way to derail us without claiming.
And look what you've done! Kept the theory talk going.
I did get that one actual scumread out of you, so that was nice.
And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.
-
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?
It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"
If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!
Really? Count down the number next to my flavor name. Again, let's pick #10.
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0
Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.
-
And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.
Really? At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye. Why does he get a pass from you? He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.
-
You are free to have an "actual scumread" on me now. Thanks for pointing out your previous scumread on me was faked.
Nope not what that means! You sure do seem to misrepresent people a lot. I mean that my vote on you was not because of a scumread at the time (it was a policy vote, so by definition...)
-
And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.
Really? At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye. Why does he get a pass from you? He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.
Because his posts have been mostly content free. I have pointed this out before.
-
And I would call chairs and mcmc lurkers, btw.
Really? At the time of the post count (and still), Chairs had posted MORE than shraeye. Why does he get a pass from you? He's also only two posts behind raerae and liopoil.
Because his posts have been mostly content free. I have pointed this out before.
I can see the actilurking argument for chairs. Definitely for mcmc. I don't think there's been any true lurking, though.
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
Any other thoughts on this exchange and idea?
I think shraeye's point about overedited language being a scum!tell has some validity. One is less likely to proofread as town than as scum (see yuma's multiple doc=cop problems in Back to Basics).
I think we're more likely to find small mistakes where it looks like a word was omitted than we are nonsense sentences, which was what shraeye was pointing out.
I think overall, it says nothing about shraeye's alignment, given I think shraeye the person believes what he said, not shraeye the town or shraeye the mafia.
-
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?
It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"
If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!
Really? Count down the number next to my flavor name. Again, let's pick #10.
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0
Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.
Oh come on. You're more intelligent than that.
-
Count 10 people, starting with me. Guess what, I can hide behind Jimmmmm OR nkirbit. DO YOU NOT SEE THIS?? HOW WOULD YOU KNOW?
Oh really? That's your problem with the plan?
It's right there: "from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP"
If you are at your own name, how many times do you move down to get to your own name? Zero!
If you are 13, and you count down 10, you get to nkirbit. Your name is zero, because you don't count down from your name to get to your name. It's so freaking simple!
Really? Count down the number next to my flavor name. Again, let's pick #10.
10
9
8
7
6
5
4
3
2
1
0
Now I've moved 11 spots from my own name.
Oh come on. You're more intelligent than that.
I might be. But it is not stupid to think that "count down" means what I just wrote. Or that scum won't use the argument that maybe the Hider thought that way, so I think scum must be X instead of Y.
-
Okay. Well to be clear:
When I say count down, I mean my name is 0. The name below mine (after skipping and/or looping to the top) is 1. The next one is 2. Then 3. Etc. That is what I mean, and if anyone means something different, they should make sure the rest of us know.
Are we perfectly clear now?
-
Okay. Well to be clear:
When I say count down, I mean my name is 0. The name below mine (after skipping and/or looping to the top) is 1. The next one is 2. Then 3. Etc. That is what I mean, and if anyone means something different, they should make sure the rest of us know.
Are we perfectly clear now?
Yep. Are you scum? Because that'd be pretty funny, you having this argument with me even though you are scum.
-
Yep.
Excellent!
Are you scum?
Nope. You?
Because that'd be pretty funny, you having this argument with me even though you are scum.
Maybe, although I have to admit, I would have no problem pushing what I thought was the most pro-Town plan if I was scum.
-
Also not scum. Imagine what my partners would be saying!
I think that the best scum players would push a pro-town agenda when it came to theory/plans/claiming/etc. So if Jimmmmm the Human believes the plan to be best for town, he would support/push it regardless of alignment in this game.
I think some scum would tend to just support the majority voice when it comes to things like this.
I think there are very few scum that would fight against something that (to many of you) is clearly "pro-town."
All that is to say that, I believe there are opinions to be made based on everyone's reactions to the plan(s), and everyone's reactions to the reactions (especially mine, given it was the loudest). How you parse those is up to you all individually.
I find much more scumidence in some of the seemingly "extra" stuff that folks have been saying. For example (all non-theory and non-Ash):
Robz vs. Voltaire is interesting and mystical.
The case/noncase on liopoil is worth noting, if not reminiscent of every liopoil game.
Shraeye's overediting scumtell is debatable.
Chairs's lurking, or lack of lurking, is unclear to me.
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
-
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
Why?
-
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
Why?
Of all the reactions to my series of posts, his were by far the scummiest (opportunistic followed by flip flop), plus his acti lurking (not reduced posting, but what he does post) adds up to scummy mcmc for me.
-
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
Why?
Of all the reactions to my series of posts, his were by far the scummiest (opportunistic followed by flip flop), plus his acti lurking (not reduced posting, but what he does post) adds up to scummy mcmc for me.
I have the IRL perspective of knowing that he is just a whole lot busier these days.
-
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
Why?
Of all the reactions to my series of posts, his were by far the scummiest (opportunistic followed by flip flop), plus his acti lurking (not reduced posting, but what he does post) adds up to scummy mcmc for me.
I have the IRL perspective of knowing that he is just a whole lot busier these days.
I'm taking that into perspective. In Mean Girls he lurked due to IRL and wasn't manifestly scummy (I just painted him that way). Here, the posts he does post don't feel genuine, but just convenient.
I'm not sure, by any means. Just my read so far.
Care to elaborate on Volt now?
-
All that aside, I think mcmcsalot is the best non-ash lynch for today.
Why?
Of all the reactions to my series of posts, his were by far the scummiest (opportunistic followed by flip flop), plus his acti lurking (not reduced posting, but what he does post) adds up to scummy mcmc for me.
I have the IRL perspective of knowing that he is just a whole lot busier these days.
I'm taking that into perspective. In Mean Girls he lurked due to IRL and wasn't manifestly scummy (I just painted him that way). Here, the posts he does post don't feel genuine, but just convenient.
I'm not sure, by any means. Just my read so far.
Care to elaborate on Volt now?
Yep yep yep, sure.
I see Volt being very, very cautious. Highly reactive. And over explaining himself with the phrasing "Because I know this might look suspicious, let me head you off and explain why it is not." TA caught him doing that, and I saw several subsequent posts where he does it.
It's a scumtell* I like to look out for.
*May not actually be a scumtell, I really suck at this.
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Hi fellow townie!
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Interesting post here. The first bit reads quite a bit scummy to me. It's saying "If I were scum, I would do this thing (that I'm not doing and a lot of other people are doing)". It contributes nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, but is supposed to give you a subliminal message that Lio isn't scum, because he's not doing the scummy thing, and all these other people are scummy. Writing a sentence that attempts to make yourself look towny and half of the other players in the game look scummy is quite impressive.
Vote: Liopoil
Oh I'm going to vote: nk that was not scummy on liopoil's part and you are reaching.
Also I felt shraeye's earlier post was scummy about "this post has a flaw" though I think it was town shraeye reaching not scum shraeye.
Also ill answer the question later today hen I have time.
-
Grr, I went to answer the question I why I think volt is scummy, if you want me to present a case it's going to have to wait, and sadly it will be a summary of other people's reason for finding him scummy that I agree with. Call it sheepy if you want, it's something I do now that I lurk so much, I look for other people's arguments I agree or disagree with, it's not as good as coming up with my own arguments though to be honest I have had a much better track Record finding scum this way than when I made my own arguments and was just wrong.
So to answer, what robz and TA said...
-
Ash, it looks like you're now willing to return to playing seriously like the rest of us were doing. Care to unvote yourself?
-
I would point out that the last three pages where you all discuss me has been much, much, much more useful to town than the 14 that came before it building your plan.
I agree with this. Also, why did you all make 5+ since last evening?
Also Umbrage's case on ashersky is not compelling, though it is pretty. I like bulleted points as opposed to quote walls. Still, I'm fairly sure it's wrong.
-
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
This is an absurdly scummy vote. It justifies his vote entirely and possibly too much "this is policy", "I've gotten enough reads today", "hence, my comfort in casting this vote". Yet his stated reason for doing this is that Voltaire "cannot see how ash is possibly helping town". This basically is just a weak echo of what Umbrage has been loudly saying. (backed up by other folks, names I'm not recalling right now).
-
Man, I would totally policy vote ashersky if I didn't want to lynch scum...
you are correct that it is a bit vague. That vagueness can be clarified really really easily. This turns the hider into a cop who dies when he gets a guilty result.
Interesting post here. The first bit reads quite a bit scummy to me. It's saying "If I were scum, I would do this thing (that I'm not doing and a lot of other people are doing)". It contributes nothing to the game in terms of scumhunting, but is supposed to give you a subliminal message that Lio isn't scum, because he's not doing the scummy thing, and all these other people are scummy. Writing a sentence that attempts to make yourself look towny and half of the other players in the game look scummy is quite impressive.
Vote: Liopoil
This does contribute to scumhunting. It shows that liopoil agrees with many others that ash is not scum (I don't think ash is scum). He's also not calling any other players scummy for voting ashersky. That's something that nkirbit baked into his post. This post by nkirbit is a really egregious stretching of liopoil's post into something scummy.
I feel like nkirbit jumped at this because "Man..." posts can often feel scummy. But this one from liopoil doesn't feel scummy at all. Nkirbit just built up a really detailed narrative that tries extremely hard to paint lio scummy.
Sooooo, nkirbit is suspicious. Is my conclusion. That I'm making.
(I was reading the thread further after typing this out, and see that liopoil has said basically exactly what I expect townlio's rationale to be in #446)
-
I would point out that the last three pages where you all discuss me has been much, much, much more useful to town than the 14 that came before it building your plan.
I agree with this. Also, why did you all make 5+ since last evening?
Also Umbrage's case on ashersky is not compelling, though it is pretty. I like bulleted points as opposed to quote walls. Still, I'm fairly sure it's wrong.
So you don't want us to post.
You see my frustration with this game.
-
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.
You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.
Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.
See, the problem is that you aren't even answering the question ashersky is asking. You're just jumping up at the opportunity to triple-validate your vote on him and also encourage others to see ashersky as scummy.
Ashersky is talking about how there were roughly 50 posts in 3 hours, and then nobody said anything for the next 2 hours. All that happened after ashersky's supposed destruction of the thread.
I don't know if I'm voting for Voltaire yet, I shoudl be.
Vote: Voltaire
-
So you don't want us to post.
You see my frustration with this game.
Yes, son. that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Please nobody post.
My views on lengthy day1's are well-documented, and you I'm very sure you knew exactly what I was talking about. Why did you decide to characterize me as "wanting no posts"?
-
See, the problem is that you aren't even answering the question ashersky is asking. You're just jumping up at the opportunity to triple-validate your vote on him and also encourage others to see ashersky as scummy.
Ashersky is talking about how there were roughly 50 posts in 3 hours, and then nobody said anything for the next 2 hours. All that happened after ashersky's supposed destruction of the thread.
Go re-read that part of the thread and try to tell me that's not what happened. Just try.
-
I don't even know where to go with this goofy thread now so I'm posting thoughts as they pop up. Warning: This is a messy, jump around post.
1. I think UoS is getting way too much credit for his "reads" post which basically amounts to agreeing with him = town points. Seriously, people? That's townie?? It's more of an easy way for scum to manipulate your reads. Chairs, it seems, noticed this and has taken advantage of it by posting a similar list.
2. Super FOS people voting for Ash for being anti-town instead of mafia. In my very first game here Robz gave me a talking to about that, Eevee has been known to say lynch mafia not scum, and yet there are still people out there trying to what? Teach Ash a lesson? Shame on all of you.
3. I can't read mcmc anymore and I don't like that he didn't answer shraeye's question right away but when he did answer it was such an...offhand? shruggy?...sort of answer that I can't see scum being that nonchalant about it.
4. Volt is a little bit scummy to me but I honestly can't say why, just a gut feeling.
5. I'm suspicious of Eevee but that is mostly due to his vote and position on Ash.
Shooting for a reread of somebody today...lio, eevee, chairs, volt...one or two of them I suppose. Ugh.
-
So you don't want us to post.
You see my frustration with this game.
Yes, son. that's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Please nobody post.
My views on lengthy day1's are well-documented, and you I'm very sure you knew exactly what I was talking about. Why did you decide to characterize me as "wanting no posts"?
Because it's annoying as all get-out when I have one player (ash) going nuts in the thread, and another (you) discouraging posting. I'm going to play the game I want to play, where I scumhunt and post and talk to other players and try to be pro-town.
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
-
See, the problem is that you aren't even answering the question ashersky is asking. You're just jumping up at the opportunity to triple-validate your vote on him and also encourage others to see ashersky as scummy.
Ashersky is talking about how there were roughly 50 posts in 3 hours, and then nobody said anything for the next 2 hours. All that happened after ashersky's supposed destruction of the thread.
Go re-read that part of the thread and try to tell me that's not what happened. Just try.
No, I literally just reread the part of the thread where ashersky said this. Literally just now, as I was catching up. Remember the other thing you are calling me scummy for right now (my frustration of having to read 5+ pages in one sitting)? That's what allowed me to have the perspective to see what ash was saying. You are in the wrong.
-
1. I think UoS is getting way too much credit for his "reads" post which basically amounts to agreeing with him = town points. Seriously, people? That's townie?? It's more of an easy way for scum to manipulate your reads. Chairs, it seems, noticed this and has taken advantage of it by posting a similar list.
2. Super FOS people voting for Ash for being anti-town instead of mafia. In my very first game here Robz gave me a talking to about that, Eevee has been known to say lynch mafia not scum, and yet there are still people out there trying to what? Teach Ash a lesson? Shame on all of you.
3. I can't read mcmc anymore and I don't like that he didn't answer shraeye's question right away but when he did answer it was such an...offhand? shruggy?...sort of answer that I can't see scum being that nonchalant about it.
4. Volt is a little bit scummy to me but I honestly can't say why, just a gut feeling.
5. I'm suspicious of Eevee but that is mostly due to his vote and position on Ash.
1. I actually don't give him any credit for his "reads" post. Mine is all based on the hide discussion (see, something useful came of it!). I agree with you that chairs realized those were a way to get towncred. Increases my scumread on chairs.
2. It's not fun for me to play mafia if the best strategy for town is to go insane and be anti-town.
3. At the moment I'm giving weight to Robz's real-life explanation but I too have no clarity on mcmc.
4. [will happily respond to any non-gut based cases on me] (not knocking you having a gut-case on me, I have them on other players sometimes, but obviously I can't exactly rebut it)
5. I maintain my suspicious null read of Eevee.
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
I ANSWERED THIS AT LEAST ONE PAGE AGO
This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.
You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.
Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.
I guess instead of "you" I should have said "shraeye".
And I'm getting more of a townread on raerae.
-
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
And when did I call you scummy? I never did.
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
I ANSWERED THIS AT LEAST ONE PAGE AGO
Quote it, dude. I can't find it at all.
-
Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
I ANSWERED THIS AT LEAST ONE PAGE AGO
Quote it, dude. I can't find it at all.
It's in the post YOU JUST QUOTED!!!?!?!?!111
-
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
And when did I call you scummy? I never did.
That was my take on the part where you accused me of "not wanting anybody to post". Forgive me if I'm mistaken.
-
Volt, I love that you jumped straight up to call me scummy for calling you scummy. But STILL haven't answered this question.
And when did I call you scummy? I never did.
That was my take on the part where you accused me of "not wanting anybody to post". Forgive me if I'm mistaken.
I have a small townread on you. I'm frustrated as various four-letter words right now, but I have a small townread on you.
-
Mmmmm, I see what I missed now. I was so overwhelmed by you not actually answering ashersky's question in that post, that I didn't pay close attention to what you were answering. It still looks like you just jumped at an opportunity to beat the "ashersky is scummy" drum one more time.
Thanks for the begrudging townread, sorry I'm not going to reciprocate.
-
It occurs to me that I should take my own advice and play how I would like others to play. I have tried to do that during this discussion with shraeye (see my post responding to raerae).
Ash has started playing for real. If he unvotes himself, I will move my vote to my top scumread, chairs.
I know I have clearly appeared scummy to many of you. If you need any clarification on my actions/thoughts/behavior, please ask.
-
I was so overwhelmed by you not actually answering ashersky's question in that post, that I didn't pay close attention to what you were answering.
I answered his question as I understood it, and as I understood what happened. That's all I can do. If it's not sufficient for you, that's obviously for you to decide.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
Basically, chairs, my read on you is because you posted quite a bit that, in my opinion, could easily have been posted by scum. Then, when called out on it, you put up a "reads" post - which is what I would expect scum to do. Then, you only pop into the thread when people talk about you.
That's a scumtell to me. I've used it before to find scum (Frisk in my first mafia game here). In order for you to prove to me that you're not scum, I need to see you scumhunt, and well.
-
Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!
Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.
Eevee, do me a huge favor. After my flip, after the lynch, go back to Masons and Monks, and read that argument you and I had at the start of D2 (or D3, whenever it was that I said let's decide to lynch me first and then scumhunt). Read that conversation we had about the role of VTs and town members in general in a game and how they help town win games. We were both town that game. We had very divergent beliefs. But we both were doing what we felt was best to help town win this game.
Havent caught up yet but ash, do me a huge favor. If you are town, don't get yourself lynched for no gain. The playatyle you are choosing now is way too easy to fake if you are scum, we just can't possibly now. You can be such an asset if we can just find a common tongue and work together.
-
Town reads on:
Shraeye
Liopoil
Umbrage
Robz
Ashersky
Twisted
Scummy reads due to not what I expect from them:
Raerae
Eevee
Jimm?
Scum reads based in scummy behavior
Voltaire
Nk
Chairs?
? Players I added in after needing to the op so they are weak reads.
Explainations later sorry
-
Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".
With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.
He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
Basically, chairs, my read on you is because you posted quite a bit that, in my opinion, could easily have been posted by scum. Then, when called out on it, you put up a "reads" post - which is what I would expect scum to do. Then, you only pop into the thread when people talk about you.
That's a scumtell to me. I've used it before to find scum (Frisk in my first mafia game here). In order for you to prove to me that you're not scum, I need to see you scumhunt, and well.
I thought that posting reads was scumhunting? I also have been lurking today as I pretty much do any non-weekend day (because I really -am- trying to get my work stuff done, I'm basically occupied at least 12 hours of each day due to my job + commute) and I saw what was, in my mind, potential for a mislynch if scum decided they might be able to set up a wagon on me. Now, I'm opposed to a mislynch, but if it helps the rest of you find the mafia team, I'll take one to the face. However, I wanted to understand, before I got croaked, what your reasoning would be behind a chairs lynch, so that next time I can attempt to do better at proving myself pro-town.
-
Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".
With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.
He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.
I think he was definitely trying to make a point. I don't like how he made it, but I do feel that we gained something around the discussion of his self-lynch attempt. Does it give him a lot of towncred? For some, sure. I can still see the value in it being a gambit, so to me it's a null-read at best.
-
Vote Count 1.10
Wadsworth the Butler looked around. "Well everyone back to their stations. No real emergency here. We still need to find yuma."
So back the groups went. Col. Mustard and Mr. Boddy didn't look too happy as they did so, however. It appears they weren't getting along very well. Or maybe they were just bitter because their group was the only one without a female.
"Just my luck," Col. Mustard had muttered under his breath earlier while searching in the basement. "No good looking women around and all I have for company is this low life."
Mr. Boddy wasn't very happy with the situation either. But he was unhappy for completely different reasons altogether.
liopoil (2): raerae, nkirbit
ashersky (5): Snow, ashersky, TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Robz, shraeye
nkirbit (1): mcmcsalot
Robz (1): chairs
Not voting: (2) liopoil, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 8 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
That's all fair enough. I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum. Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car). I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
That's all fair enough. I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum. Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car). I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.
This is the sort of reasonable, defusing, mild-mannered explanation I expect scum to deliver.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
That's all fair enough. I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum. Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car). I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.
This is the sort of reasonable, defusing, mild-mannered explanation I expect scum to deliver.
I disagree. Note the real life ate, this is a defense I, and I believe someone with the personality I have formed of chairs, would only use as town. Now this is not foolproof obviously but based on the time at which it came an what I have got from the time chairs has been here leads me to believe that statement is very much a town post.
-
Why are cops allowed? They catch scum too!
Ashersky, you are being unreasonable here. You just are. I don't see why you'd act this way as town.
Eevee, do me a huge favor. After my flip, after the lynch, go back to Masons and Monks, and read that argument you and I had at the start of D2 (or D3, whenever it was that I said let's decide to lynch me first and then scumhunt). Read that conversation we had about the role of VTs and town members in general in a game and how they help town win games. We were both town that game. We had very divergent beliefs. But we both were doing what we felt was best to help town win this game.
-
hmmm, shraeye:
when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.
-
Yep yep yep, sure.
I see Volt being very, very cautious. Highly reactive. And over explaining himself with the phrasing "Because I know this might look suspicious, let me head you off and explain why it is not." TA caught him doing that, and I saw several subsequent posts where he does it.
It's a scumtell* I like to look out for.
*May not actually be a scumtell, I really suck at this.
Anyone else get the "robz is playing the I suck at town card one too many times" feeling from this? We get that you aren't happy about getting bulldozed in that one game. But eventually you're going to use this as scum.
(Note: did he do this as scum in Back to Basics?)
-
(Note: did he do this as scum in Back to Basics?)
Sorta. He mentioned it once or twice, but didn't harp on it. I personally found him scummy more for driving weak cases and calling people scummy for actions he himself was taking. (It wasn't a strong read but it was there for me) Then he fakeclaimed and was caught.
-
I don't think so, Ashersky. Not much that I remember, anyway.
The one thing that struck me as similar to his play in B2B was him pointing out chairs defense as the sort of mild-mannered, reasonable defense that he would expect from scum.
In that game, as scum, he said this about my defense (I was town):
"Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it."
So there are similarities here and there. I'm not sure if that makes him scum here, necessarily, since I think he's played enough games to "scumhunt" like he would as town even if he were scum. So he could be town legitimately scumhunting or scum impersonating his townself, and I don't have any way of knowing which is which. But I do think it's something worth nothing.
-
I don't even know where to go with this goofy thread now so I'm posting thoughts as they pop up. Warning: This is a messy, jump around post.
1. I think UoS is getting way too much credit for his "reads" post which basically amounts to agreeing with him = town points. Seriously, people? That's townie?? It's more of an easy way for scum to manipulate your reads. Chairs, it seems, noticed this and has taken advantage of it by posting a similar list.
2. Super FOS people voting for Ash for being anti-town instead of mafia. In my very first game here Robz gave me a talking to about that, Eevee has been known to say lynch mafia not scum, and yet there are still people out there trying to what? Teach Ash a lesson? Shame on all of you.
3. I can't read mcmc anymore and I don't like that he didn't answer shraeye's question right away but when he did answer it was such an...offhand? shruggy?...sort of answer that I can't see scum being that nonchalant about it.
4. Volt is a little bit scummy to me but I honestly can't say why, just a gut feeling.
5. I'm suspicious of Eevee but that is mostly due to his vote and position on Ash.
Shooting for a reread of somebody today...lio, eevee, chairs, volt...one or two of them I suppose. Ugh.
1. I agree, in general. UoS is also getting a lot of newbie towncred. So trying hard + newbie = town, for many. It's great to know coming into a game as scum. If he has even one veteran partner, he was filled in on that. I think he shouldn't be ignored, but I do not see him as a good D1 lynch.
3. As mentioned previously, I do have mcmc on the scummy side. I do have a vision of what town!mcmc looks like to me, and he isn't matching it. That's a meta argument (yuma's favorite!), but it's what I've got. There's the reaction to me, flipflop vote thing, too.
4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
5. I'm suspicious of Eevee every game because he's good at this stuff. His town meta has shifted though, as he's burned out a bit, I think.
-
Mmmmm, I see what I missed now. I was so overwhelmed by you not actually answering ashersky's question in that post, that I didn't pay close attention to what you were answering. It still looks like you just jumped at an opportunity to beat the "ashersky is scummy" drum one more time.
Thanks for the begrudging townread, sorry I'm not going to reciprocate.
That was a lot of posts just to get to "oh, I just missed it." No actual reads from the shraeye-volt "quote it!" back and forth, but yeesh.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
Chairs, welcome to mafia.
/joking
Okay, I can see your frustration there. It is part of the game. People are going to call you out on your reads for a number of reasons: maybe they are scum trying to mess with you; maybe you read someone who's town as scummy and they are upset about it; maybe they have an abrasive playstyle. Just gotta roll with it.
Scum hunting takes many forms. To me, I think the definition for these games is to seek out "behavior" that you would expect from scum and pointing it out. So not "reads" so much as "observations."
Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play. If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.
The scumhunting informs your reads, which are opinions that we all give and take into account when deciding who to lynch (but also who to believe, disbelieve) and are reference points later in the game when people have died and we can know if they are town truths or scum lies.
Does that help?
-
hmmm, shraeye:
when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.
What possible reason could I have had?
-
4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both. I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.
-
Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".
With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.
He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.
Literally no one responded to this.
I think you are half correct that, if I was scum, and I did this, this is the resolution I'd want. I mean, I've sat at L-2 a few times for awhile, and survived. I don't think it's what scum wants overall though. Lots of attention, the very real possibility of dying on D1 (we know that scum losing someone on D1 is almost always fatal), it's not great. Sure, it allows for bussing, but who's going to get free towncred for supporting my lynch if I were scum?
I will say, your final sentence is important. I was trying to make a point. I think I did.
It also resulted in some discussion/reactions/behavior that I think will help us catch scum. It may not have rubbed everyone the right way, but it was useful.
I'll vote: Twistedarcher for now. This is a "nkirbit posting about liopoil" post, and worth a vote.
-
4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both. I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.
Agreed. If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.
-
4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both. I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.
Agreed. If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.
I was like the first to seriously push it, though.
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
Chairs, welcome to mafia.
/joking
Okay, I can see your frustration there. It is part of the game. People are going to call you out on your reads for a number of reasons: maybe they are scum trying to mess with you; maybe you read someone who's town as scummy and they are upset about it; maybe they have an abrasive playstyle. Just gotta roll with it.
Scum hunting takes many forms. To me, I think the definition for these games is to seek out "behavior" that you would expect from scum and pointing it out. So not "reads" so much as "observations."
Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play. If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.
The scumhunting informs your reads, which are opinions that we all give and take into account when deciding who to lynch (but also who to believe, disbelieve) and are reference points later in the game when people have died and we can know if they are town truths or scum lies.
Does that help?
Sure. I guess what I mean is that some of the scumreads seem almost like RVS more than a read. Now, perhaps we're getting into this whole "well if I have this weak scumread, and I see somebody roll with it, I can them assume they might be scum because they're picking up on crap I don't even believe myself" or even above that level of braindickery. I guess that's just not really my style, as I tend to call it like I see it - which I do think I've done, consistently, this whole game. I'm just not seeing it clearly this time around, but I'm trying not to be too lurky because if I'm lurking, I'm not providing content for others to respond to, for me to pick up on things with and hopefully get that clear gut reaction that lets me call out Robz as scum with hat-eating confidence instead of just "Well, right now he feels kind of scummy, but not super scummy, and I wouldn't throw in all my chips just yet".
-
Err, as an addendum...
FWIW, that was not intended to indicate that Robz is or is not Mafia in this game, though my vote is currently with him for the lynch. It was simply a reference to B2B.
-
4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both. I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.
Agreed. If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.
I was like the first to seriously push it, though.
You were the first to bring it up. How many times did you get asked to present the case? You were giving feel-based hints. Scum could give a feel-based scum read on a partner with no real backing, and if it goes through, they look awesome for picking up on something.
I'm not saying you are scum, or did that. But it's possible, and I can see you doing it.
-
Sure. I guess what I mean is that some of the scumreads seem almost like RVS more than a read. Now, perhaps we're getting into this whole "well if I have this weak scumread, and I see somebody roll with it, I can them assume they might be scum because they're picking up on crap I don't even believe myself" or even above that level of braindickery. I guess that's just not really my style, as I tend to call it like I see it - which I do think I've done, consistently, this whole game. I'm just not seeing it clearly this time around, but I'm trying not to be too lurky because if I'm lurking, I'm not providing content for others to respond to, for me to pick up on things with and hopefully get that clear gut reaction that lets me call out Robz as scum with hat-eating confidence instead of just "Well, right now he feels kind of scummy, but not super scummy, and I wouldn't throw in all my chips just yet".
They can seem that way, but on the contrary, I think many D1 reads are based on experience with the players in previous games, gut feels on a word choice or sentence, or just odd behavior. It's the way things roll.
You shouldn't have hat-eating confidence on D1 in a regular game. Only scum have info on D1.
-
hmmm, shraeye:
when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.
What possible reason could I have had?
This is an odd exchange.
-
Do we have a soft deadline? I don't recall.
How's Thursday night?
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
That's all fair enough. I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum. Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car). I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.
This is the sort of reasonable, defusing, mild-mannered explanation I expect scum to deliver.
AGREED! Opened my computer to reread and saw this post first. This screams, "Yeah, I'm scummy but since I'm admitting it then that means I'm not scum except I am so I'm not lying so I'll get back to my normal town meta in a minute, k?"
Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.
-
hmmm, shraeye:
when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.
What possible reason could I have had?
This is an odd exchange.
It sure was.
-
Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.
Buzzed?
-
Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.
Buzzed?
Show off.
-
Do we have a soft deadline? I don't recall.
How's Thursday night?
Works for me.
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.
People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm
People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz
I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.
I'm convinced that I must just always sound like scum :-[
I understand the argument regarding why Ash -might- be town, but I still think Ash would almost be our best bet for D1 lynch because being that upset might set his tone for the entirety of the game. Maybe ash doesn't play that way, I'm not sure, but I feel like that's a bad way to start yourself off.
What do you mean 'almost'? Who would be better? Or would have been, I realize this post is from a while back.
-
Chairs reread:
His first seven posts were spent either agreeing with or reiterating/clarifying plans then we have an RVS vote for Robz. Not a whole lot here, both reads and content-wise which gives me a bit of a shady feel but nothing solid.
Advocates Ash's lynch twice (286 & 291...sorry, don't have the mental capacity to link that shit right now) but 291 is the one that especially rubs me wrong for the bolded part below. I don't know if it's just me or what but this sort of statement always screams scummy to me. It suggests a willingness to vote for whoever comes up but doesn't actually offer to do any of the work. It feels like, 'Hey, I pointed this out but if you guys want to point out something else, I'll probably go with that too."
But honestly, I just haven't had a whole bunch to say, especially since we wanted to shut down the theory talk (which is the part of mafia that truly excites me, D1). I could blather indiscriminately about irrelevant things, but I don't really have much to contribute to the hunt per se, except that I think offering yourself up for a lynch is dumb and I think ashersky's worth lynching if a better option doesn't come up.
Continues to push the damn hider plan. I know this is a personal difference between our play and he doesn't understand/agree that it's terrible for town but...ugh, stop talking about it!!
Reads promised on July 14 - reads delivered July 15 (light argument for Ash's lynch again), details presented in the same format at UoS' highly praised "reads" post.
#352 - Again, let's lynch Ash!
#370 - Finally votes for Ash once his wagon has been sufficiently built up.
This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious. Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering? I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.
I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.
#507 & 512 - These sound like a forced overreaction to me. Like feigning anger at his fake reads been called on the carpet even though they were only lightly questioned.
#513 - (Again) Hey, let's lynch Ash!
I want to reread lio & volt too but feel confident my vote will set on one of those guys today. In light of that, unvote, until a decision has been made.
-
Do we have a soft deadline? I don't recall.
How's Thursday night?
We (speaking for shraeye here) may or may not be around for the deadline.
-
I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.
But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?
That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.
People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm
People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz
I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.
I'm convinced that I must just always sound like scum :-[
I understand the argument regarding why Ash -might- be town, but I still think Ash would almost be our best bet for D1 lynch because being that upset might set his tone for the entirety of the game. Maybe ash doesn't play that way, I'm not sure, but I feel like that's a bad way to start yourself off.
What do you mean 'almost'? Who would be better? Or would have been, I realize this post is from a while back.
Well, mafia would be better. As I stated (later on, I think), I can see this being scum!ash or town!ash and I opted to give it a null read even though it'd be scummy if some of my friends were to do it (albeit we've not played mafia in forever, opting instead for BSG and other similar mafiaesque-with-a-board-game options).
As far as who would be better, I thought that I'd kind of explained that, overall, "I really have no idea who's mafia this game" is currently the quandary I find myself in, as someone who in person prides themselves on being able to read people. The removal of the non-verbal cues is... awfully tricky. TBH it's what made me sign up in the first place to f.ds, I was lurking with no account and noticed people played Mafia, and I figured Dominion players would be just the kind of tricksy hobbitses that could help me step up my own game. That's why, particularly in this game where I've got no solid read, I've been content/excited to discuss theory and plan concepts and am more trying to understand the rest of you - even if D1 it doesn't help me catch scum, if I can get a better grasp on why people think X, Y, or Z, and why shraeye will say X is scummy and you'll say it's towny (just as an example) it will help me form my own opinions, review them against what I know of everyone else's opinions, and decide why we agree/disagree.
For example, the long discussion of why this could be town!ash is basically the only reason that I've done anything beyond reiterating a desire to lynch him - if it IS town!ash, I definitely don't want to - but if it's scum!ash, we definitely do. The fact that there are players who know him better on both sides of the fence is actually a great boon, as if I can understand the reasoning for each side, from each player, maybe I can figure out what's "wrong" about that reaction. I know, I know, I'm still way down in the basics of scumhunting, but this is why I've been trying to ask questions and am semi-content to sheep a little if it means drawing out a few more answers as to why I should/shouldn't follow that particular shepherd.
-
Unvote.
Ash's play really seems to have changed in the last 24 hours or whatever, enough that I'd no longer be comfortable voting for him on Day 1. I'd put him about at null at this point. I'm happy to see you contributing more, Ash, and for what it's worth, I'm sorry I let it get heated there for a bit.
-
Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play. If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.
To be fair, Robz pointed out TA's pointing out of Volt's overjustification. Robz sheeped TA. Mcmcsalot sheeped Robz. Given the real life stuff, I don't particularly find it scummy, but I think we should keep in mind that this was something TA pointed out and the other two agreed with later.
-
Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".
With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.
He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.
Literally no one responded to this.
I think you are half correct that, if I was scum, and I did this, this is the resolution I'd want.
I agree with TwistedArcher, more or less. I think, at this point, your play has shifted in a more towny direction and although you still might be scum, my certainty has waned enough that I'm not going to vote you. But at the time TA posted this, I 100% agreed with him and I still agree with his logic.
I'm not really clear on why this earns a vote from you?
-
I'm not really clear on why this earns a vote from you?
Partly to put pressure on TA. Partly to see how people feel about it. Partly because I do have a growing scumread on the guy. As mentioned previously, my strongest scumread is on mcmc. He's got IRL excuses to consider, but I do get a scum feel from his posts.
My past experiences with TA, more as a mod than a player, have been that scum!TA is a bit more emotional than town!TA. I could be wrong, but that's the feel I have for him. And he's been more emotional about his case on me not gaining traction than I'd expect town!TA to have. I think he does that because he thinks emotional = towny, overall.
-
What, exactly, does a soft-deadline mean? From the thread I read, it seemed pretty meaningless, but it seems like proposing it or agreeing to it makes you towny for some reason? I don't really get it, do people ever actually meet a soft deadline?
For what it's worth, I'm okay with aiming for midnight (or whenever) Thursday, I can be around a good amount between now and then, and Thursday night itself shouldn't be a problem, I can be online for most of that.
-
You are mostly right that Soft Deadlines are usually meaningless.
They are deadlines ahead of real deadlines at which point we hope to have decided upon a lynch, and can leave time for claiming/discussion before finalizing it. It was a bigger deal when more games were using Bankable Deadlines, but I might be the only mod that still does.
It's supposed to work like a motivator to get people to commit.
-
Splitting headache rereading this (and not from the theory talk :P ). Can't decide who I should vote for yet, all the cases seem pretty weak, trying to come up with somewhere I feel comfortable parking my vote or some better reasoning.
Nkirbit was leading the pack for a bit, still might be where I end up voting, based on his sudden shift to "well it isn't unanimous, guess we should have no plan at all then" after like 3 posts from Ash, and based on the vote that Shraeye pointed out a couple pages back.
But then Shraeye triggers all kinds of scummy feelings for me, although much of it may just be questionable logic, and at this time of night I'm having trouble separating scuminess from posts that just bother me in what may be a non-scummy way. (Lack of spellcheck==scum!, me putting in effort==scum!).
I think Robz is currently my top scumread though. First for his continually baffling example of that previous game in his first post, where he seems to mis-explain just about everything if I'm reading the followups right, and where he uses "We made a plan, then a bunch of complicated shit happened which didn't relate to the plan, therefore plans are bad.", for his voting Volt based of TA's minor-calling-out-of-Volt and then without further comment escalating that into him being "manifestly the scummiest player". He seems to bring up the Volt case a lot without expanding on it until 481 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269132#msg269132) where he says there were a bunch of other examples without pointing them out. Also for ignoring me asking about this back in 395 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268845#msg268845).
And dismissing Chairs' entire defense by calling it reasonable, therefore scummy in 517 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269319#msg269319) is a nice way to keep pushing a potential mislynch without engaging in the reasoning in any way.
And as Ash points out in 521 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269369#msg269369), Robz keeps saying that he sucks at being town. I think this could be a good way to push a mislynch and set us up not to assign too much blame for it later.
Okay, I think I've talked myself into it.
Vote: Robz
-
Splitting headache rereading this (and not from the theory talk :P ). Can't decide who I should vote for yet, all the cases seem pretty weak, trying to come up with somewhere I feel comfortable parking my vote or some better reasoning.
Nkirbit was leading the pack for a bit, still might be where I end up voting, based on his sudden shift to "well it isn't unanimous, guess we should have no plan at all then" after like 3 posts from Ash, and based on the vote that Shraeye pointed out a couple pages back.
But then Shraeye triggers all kinds of scummy feelings for me, although much of it may just be questionable logic, and at this time of night I'm having trouble separating scuminess from posts that just bother me in what may be a non-scummy way. (Lack of spellcheck==scum!, me putting in effort==scum!).
I think Robz is currently my top scumread though. First for his continually baffling example of that previous game in his first post, where he seems to mis-explain just about everything if I'm reading the followups right, and where he uses "We made a plan, then a bunch of complicated shit happened which didn't relate to the plan, therefore plans are bad.", for his voting Volt based of TA's minor-calling-out-of-Volt and then without further comment escalating that into him being "manifestly the scummiest player". He seems to bring up the Volt case a lot without expanding on it until 481 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269132#msg269132) where he says there were a bunch of other examples without pointing them out. Also for ignoring me asking about this back in 395 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268845#msg268845).
And dismissing Chairs' entire defense by calling it reasonable, therefore scummy in 517 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269319#msg269319) is a nice way to keep pushing a potential mislynch without engaging in the reasoning in any way.
And as Ash points out in 521 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269369#msg269369), Robz keeps saying that he sucks at being town. I think this could be a good way to push a mislynch and set us up not to assign too much blame for it later.
Okay, I think I've talked myself into it.
Vote: Robz
You've almost sold me on that lynch, too. Nice work. Someone else will have to tell you that you're wrong. I can't, because you aren't wrong on the facts, you're just wrong that those facts make me scum. You'll have to take someone's word for it. You won't (and shouldn't) take mine.
-
Vote Count 1.11
On their way back to the attic The Mechanic suddenly stopped. "What's this," he exclaimed, bending to the ground. "It is my Wrench from my truck! How did it get in here?"
Wadsworth the Butler and The Cook huddled around The Mechanic to have a closer look.
"Why is there ketchup stains on your wrench?" asked Wadsworth the Butler.
"I know my way around condiments," said The Cook. "Those stains aren't from ketchup. That's blood!"
"Blood. Blood always reminds of..." said Wadsworth the Butler. "Ours is not to reason why, ours is but to do and die."
"Die?" said The Cook.
"Merely quoting, ma'am, from Alfred, Lord Tennyson," Wadsworth the Butler said.
"Hm, I prefer Kipling, myself," said The Mechanic 'The female of the species is more deadly than the male.' You like Kipling?" he said to The Cook.
"Sure, I'll eat anything," she responded.
liopoil (1): nkirbit
ashersky (3): TA, Eevee, Voltaire
Voltaire (2): Robz, shraeye
nkirbit (1): mcmcsalot
Robz (2): chairs, Snow
TA (1): ashersky
Not voting: (3) liopoil, Jimmmm, raerae
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 8 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Snow: FWIW, even though Robz is currently my top read, he hasn't hit the "gut instinct" for me that he did in B2B. Whether that means he's actually town, or just avoiding whatever it was in that game that made me twitch, we'll see.
-
Welcome to the sanity side, ash! unvote. You've returned to a null read for me, and you're helping out. Huzzah!
A middling wagon for me means I get to analyze votes/intent to vote on a townie! Robz comes out looking the scummiest for it. I don't find TA's starting my vote scummy at all, it's not a bad reason (just a wrong reason).
I could still vote chairs, for all the reasons already mentioned. I could vote Robz. I always like a Robz vote. vote: chairs Nobody else is on this anymore?
I definitely don't want to vote for TA, raerae, shraeye, or UoS today.
I'm more and more worried about lurker Eevee, simply because townEevee is so nice and helpful!
Everyone else is some sort of neutral at this point. We haven't seen Jimmmm in awhile, have we?
-
I'm not really clear on why this earns a vote from you?
Partly to put pressure on TA. Partly to see how people feel about it. Partly because I do have a growing scumread on the guy. As mentioned previously, my strongest scumread is on mcmc. He's got IRL excuses to consider, but I do get a scum feel from his posts.
My past experiences with TA, more as a mod than a player, have been that scum!TA is a bit more emotional than town!TA. I could be wrong, but that's the feel I have for him. And he's been more emotional about his case on me not gaining traction than I'd expect town!TA to have. I think he does that because he thinks emotional = towny, overall.
This isn't true! Remember town!TA in Pirates, and how emotional that guy was? Besides, I would say I've been on the less emotional side this game so far, for me at least.
Still thinking Ashersky is scum, and it seems like everyone else on his wagon is moving on to other people. I'm happy with my vote here, and I really do think he's going to turn up scum. UoS's case states it nicely, but this is just obviously a scum gambit by Ashersky, to me.
Besides Ashersky, Volt seems a little too "crowd-pleasing" to me, Shraeye seems off, and I don't get why everyone was against Liopoil, I didn't notice anything there. But no one is as close to a scum-read as Ashersky is for me.
-
I'm not really clear on why this earns a vote from you?
Partly to put pressure on TA. Partly to see how people feel about it. Partly because I do have a growing scumread on the guy. As mentioned previously, my strongest scumread is on mcmc. He's got IRL excuses to consider, but I do get a scum feel from his posts.
My past experiences with TA, more as a mod than a player, have been that scum!TA is a bit more emotional than town!TA. I could be wrong, but that's the feel I have for him. And he's been more emotional about his case on me not gaining traction than I'd expect town!TA to have. I think he does that because he thinks emotional = towny, overall.
This isn't true! Remember town!TA in Pirates, and how emotional that guy was? Besides, I would say I've been on the less emotional side this game so far, for me at least.
Still thinking Ashersky is scum, and it seems like everyone else on his wagon is moving on to other people. I'm happy with my vote here, and I really do think he's going to turn up scum. UoS's case states it nicely, but this is just obviously a scum gambit by Ashersky, to me.
Besides Ashersky, Volt seems a little too "crowd-pleasing" to me, Shraeye seems off, and I don't get why everyone was against Liopoil, I didn't notice anything there. But no one is as close to a scum-read as Ashersky is for me.
I wasn't in Pirates. It was the first game I skipped in a long time.
I do realize though, that I don't think I've ever played with scum!TA. So maybe my read isn't great.
You are wrong about me, TA. I promise.
-
Besides Ashersky, Volt seems a little too "crowd-pleasing" to me, Shraeye seems off, and I don't get why everyone was against Liopoil, I didn't notice anything there. But no one is as close to a scum-read as Ashersky is for me.
If I've been "agreeable", it's likely because I didn't like the turn the tone of the game was taking and wanted to get it back on track. If that's seen as scummy, so be it - it's made the game more fun for me.
I see things have slowed down. Perhaps we do need a soft deadline to get things moving again. I'm fine with Thursday. It'd be great if those not voting would vote so we can see where we all stand.
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
-
I'm not sold on robz townieness but understand the "I suck as town" is something I have heard him say in person and seen the genuine sadness/frustration regarding it. It's something he very much feels an I actually find him more likely to bring it up as town.
Also that post sounds like town robz trying to stay alive(therefor help town since he's town) and not avoid being lynched if that makes any sense.
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
I do. I continually mix you up with WinterSpartan from Samurai and Ninjas. You and he started off in LotR, right? First games here? I think I've been mixing you two up since then.
-
Soft Deadline: Thursday @ Midnight.
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
I do. I continually mix you up with WinterSpartan from Samurai and Ninjas. You and he started off in LotR, right? First games here? I think I've been mixing you two up since then.
I wasn't in LotR. I've played:
Samurai + Ninja (you modded, I was IC)
Pirates (VT, you weren't in it)
Monty Python Blitz (I was scum, you were town)
Shakespeare (you modded, I was town)
Veteran Quest Blitz (I was town, you modded)
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
I do. I continually mix you up with WinterSpartan from Samurai and Ninjas. You and he started off in LotR, right? First games here? I think I've been mixing you two up since then.
I wasn't in LotR. I've played:
Samurai + Ninja (you modded, I was IC)
Pirates (VT, you weren't in it)
Monty Python Blitz (I was scum, you were town)
Shakespeare (you modded, I was town)
Veteran Quest Blitz (I was town, you modded)
Huh.
So you're scum here then?
-
I'm not sold on robz townieness but understand the "I suck as town" is something I have heard him say in person and seen the genuine sadness/frustration regarding it. It's something he very much feels an I actually find him more likely to bring it up as town.
Also that post sounds like town robz trying to stay alive(therefor help town since he's town) and not avoid being lynched if that makes any sense.
Spot on. Makes me think you are town.
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
I do. I continually mix you up with WinterSpartan from Samurai and Ninjas. You and he started off in LotR, right? First games here? I think I've been mixing you two up since then.
I wasn't in LotR. I've played:
Samurai + Ninja (you modded, I was IC)
Pirates (VT, you weren't in it)
Monty Python Blitz (I was scum, you were town)
Shakespeare (you modded, I was town)
Veteran Quest Blitz (I was town, you modded)
Huh.
So you're scum here then?
Humor me. Why am I scum here?
-
Ash, you did, in Blitz. That's the only time I've been scum, I haven't been scum ever in a game you've modded, so I'm not sure where you're really going with your read on Scum!TA in games you've modded.
I do. I continually mix you up with WinterSpartan from Samurai and Ninjas. You and he started off in LotR, right? First games here? I think I've been mixing you two up since then.
I wasn't in LotR. I've played:
Samurai + Ninja (you modded, I was IC)
Pirates (VT, you weren't in it)
Monty Python Blitz (I was scum, you were town)
Shakespeare (you modded, I was town)
Veteran Quest Blitz (I was town, you modded)
Huh.
So you're scum here then?
Don't say "humor me." It's scum!phraseology.
Humor me. Why am I scum here?
-
^^^Quoting fail.
-
If it's scum phrase-ology, why are you advising me to not doing it, rather than calling me out on it?
-
If it's scum phrase-ology, why are you advising me to not doing it, rather than calling me out on it?
Why indeed....?
-
So...anyone?
-
I think the Volt and Robz lynches seem to have the most viability.
I prefer a mcmc or TA lynch.
I'm worried we'll end up with a so-so lynch for info instead of possibility of being mafia.
-
The Robz-mcmc interactions look weird. I think there is a good chance one of them is scum and being overly nice and agreaable to the other. If they were both town, I think there'd be at least some suspicion, now you seem to have no problem with buddying up to each other and finishing the other's sentences.
-
The deadline is rapidly approaching and, more importantly, we are not agreeing on any sort of lynch.
I did a re-read of chairs prepared to make a nice pretty post about why we should lynch him, but he's not nearly as scummy on re-read. His defense lines up with his actions rather well and I see him as uncertain town. Which is frustrating, because there goes my top read.
So instead I started looking at my next read, Robz. Here's what Robz has done in this game:
- opposed theory talk
- advocated for town!ash
- sheeped me about Jimmmmm
- sheeped TA about Voltaire (me)
- said I am "manifestly the scummiest," latter elaborates it is because I am cautious/reactive
- says mcmc is real-life busy
- says chairs reacts scummily to pressure, does not vote chairs
- says Snow's case on him is good
- weird thing with TA (scum-phraseology)
This case, and Snow's, aren't the greatest things in the world, but I'm comfortable with a vote: Robz because in addition to the slight scumminess, he really hasn't been helping out town.
I'd like to have a stronger/read vote, but this is where we are.
-
So instead I started looking at my next read, Robz. Here's what Robz has done in this game:
- opposed theory talk
- advocated for town!ash
- sheeped me about Jimmmmm
- sheeped TA about Voltaire (me)
- said I am "manifestly the scummiest," latter elaborates it is because I am cautious/reactive
- says mcmc is real-life busy
- says chairs reacts scummily to pressure, does not vote chairs
- says Snow's case on him is good
- weird thing with TA (scum-phraseology)
This case, and Snow's, aren't the greatest things in the world, but I'm comfortable with a vote: Robz because in addition to the slight scumminess, he really hasn't been helping out town.
I'd like to have a stronger/read vote, but this is where we are.
Okay here's the issue with your case
- 3 other people did this
- again others did this, and disagreeing with you does not equal scum
- I sheeped you both
- again I sheeped you both and by sheep I mean agree...
- doesn't make him scummy
- I am, defending a town read is a better way to help town then pushing a scum era when your scum reads are generally poor but you can rely on one or two town reads
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
-
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
-
Attention All Taggers:
We need someone to do vote counts next week because yuma will be gone and I will also be gone. Please PM yuma.
-
i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
Make a better case then.
-
Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
-
Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
Well this is certainly frustrating. Whenever there's a case out there for me to respond to I'll give it my best. What I'll say right now is that I'm an active town member trying to scumhunt and getting voted for it.
-
Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
Well this is certainly frustrating. Whenever there's a case out there for me to respond to I'll give it my best. What I'll say right now is that I'm an active town member trying to scumhunt and getting voted for it.
I want to believe that, which is why I'm going to try my damnedest tonight to either prove or disprove the itch at the back of my neck with more logical arguments.
-
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk. I so I have been watching what those three have been doing. I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
vote: Voltaire
-
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk. I so I have been watching what those three have been doing. I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
vote: Voltaire
No, what I care is that the only thing you seem to be doing is voting someone who made a case. I'm not upset because we're approaching deadline "without a good wagon on a townie," I'm upset because we're approaching deadline without any wagon! We all agree D1 no-lynch is a bad idea. And the more wagons we build, the more information we get. And we increase the chances that our final wagon will be on scum.
I'm at L-3 now. TA has voted for me in the past, so it'll be interesting to see if he comes back now that I have more votes. Raerae has set themself up nicely (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269497#msg269497) to vote me. Ash states I'm a bit scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269374#msg269374) and later calls my wagon viable.
Maybe chairs really is scum?
-
\tag
I can do vote counts next week.
-
Okay, I'm catching up now, then I'll be gone for a bit, around for a bit, gone a bit more, but I should be back and active around 8 P.M. EST until midnight (or actually 1 A.M. or later probably.) Thoughts on the past page or whatever in a moment.
-
Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
This is the second time that we've seen Chairs hop on a wagon without a good reason to do so. I was unconvinced by his reasoning for voting Ashersky, and here we don't even have an explanation, just a "gut feeling".
Vote: Chairs
-
One thing I've noticed a little bit in past games is that Robz giving Mcmc a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Robz, and Mcmc giving Robz a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Mcmc. This makes me a little suspicious of Mcmc.
-
If it's scum phrase-ology, why are you advising me to not doing it, rather than calling me out on it?
Why indeed....?
First question, wtf was this, and why is "Humor me" a scum thing to say rather than a turn-of-phrase that some people might use more than others? I'm sure someone can come up with some psychobabble post hoc justification, but is that something that you actually consider a "scumtell'? Because that seems really weak.
Of course, Robz might know it seems really weak, hence the very soft accusation rather than actually calling him out on it in any direct or clear way. Robz comes off scummier from this weird exchange to me, in that Robz has completely deflected people reading from focussing on TA's question of Ash's weird statement that he is scum here. It confuses things in a way that is no way beneficial to town, and it sets up an accusation of TA without committing to it in case no one else jumps on-board the TA wagon.
-
Also, if either Robz or Ash flipped scum, that exchange between Robz and TA would make me more suspicious of the other.
At this point I'm probably back up to having Ash at a slight scumread by the way, although as I've said, I'm nowhere near as convinced as I once was.
-
Also, if either Robz or Ash flipped scum, that exchange between Robz and TA would make me more suspicious of the other.
At this point I'm probably back up to having Ash at a slight scumread by the way, although as I've said, I'm nowhere near as convinced as I once was.
I don't get why Ash acting normally has given people a town read on him. If he was acting normally from the start, we'd be looking for at what he's actually doing. But him going from acting crazy and self-voting to playing normally has made multiple people say "Ash is playing normally now, so I think he's more towny." But I don't get why someone acting anti-town at the start, THEN playing normally, gives people a town-read, when Ash simply playing normally from the start wouldn't have necessarily given that town read.
Yes, Ash it playing more "towny" than he was earlier. But this doesn't necessarily make him not scum, and I think people are giving him and his gambit too much credit. I'm still really thinking he's scum.
-
Also, if either Robz or Ash flipped scum, that exchange between Robz and TA would make me more suspicious of the other.
At this point I'm probably back up to having Ash at a slight scumread by the way, although as I've said, I'm nowhere near as convinced as I once was.
I don't get why Ash acting normally has given people a town read on him. If he was acting normally from the start, we'd be looking for at what he's actually doing. But him going from acting crazy and self-voting to playing normally has made multiple people say "Ash is playing normally now, so I think he's more towny." But I don't get why someone acting anti-town at the start, THEN playing normally, gives people a town-read, when Ash simply playing normally from the start wouldn't have necessarily given that town read.
Yes, Ash it playing more "towny" than he was earlier. But this doesn't necessarily make him not scum, and I think people are giving him and his gambit too much credit. I'm still really thinking he's scum.
And I still have a weird null read on him, for basically the same reasons you state, I just come to a different conclusion.
-
Eevee pointing out the Robz-Mcmcsalot interactions gives me a bit more of a townread on Eevee (although by no means a strong one, I'd probably say I'm unwilling to vote for him today without some big change.)
Both Robz (obviously) and Mcmcsalot are people I'd be okay with voting for. I prefer Robz though, as I think there's a lot more evidence to go on there, and weirder behavior overall while most of the case I've seen on Mcmcsalot seems gut-based or compared to previous games (of which I have no experience and can't be a particularly good judge of these as evidence vs. manipulation of evidence.)
That said, I do have a mild scumread on Mcmcsalot, admittedly based on not enough evidence that I'm not inclined to put my vote there unless someone presents a better case than we've seen on him so far, or I'm forced to choose between suboptimal lynches with him vs. someone I have a townread on.
-
liopoil reread:
OK, so not a lot there, 23ish posts, not a ton of theory but more than I think is helpful (I begrudgingly admit that my opinion on that particular subject has no bearing on alignment). I suppose he does get a few town points for fighting so loudly for his plan because, in my experience, scumlio is a little more agreeable that that. Not a whole lot more than that, answers my questions and takes a few stances so that leaves me with a mostly null read, evidence makes me lean town but I still have a nagging gut scum read.
Lio, you mentioned a reread in one of your posts. Making any progress on that? Care to enlighten the class?
-
I don't get why Ash acting normally has given people a town read on him.
In my case, that's because (and I admit this may not be true, and I never moved him beyond null-at best) my big wall post of how few contributions he'd made during the game was intended to shame him into helping more if he were actually town as some people seemed to be insisting, and perhaps drive him crazier if he were really committed to this weird gambit as scum. In my opinion, he reacted to that as Town would (after a brief rage period, which I can understand.)
If he was acting normally from the start, we'd be looking for at what he's actually doing. But him going from acting crazy and self-voting to playing normally has made multiple people say "Ash is playing normally now, so I think he's more towny." But I don't get why someone acting anti-town at the start, THEN playing normally, gives people a town-read, when Ash simply playing normally from the start wouldn't have necessarily given that town read.
Yes, Ash it playing more "towny" than he was earlier. But this doesn't necessarily make him not scum, and I think people are giving him and his gambit too much credit. I'm still really thinking he's scum.
I still agree with you that a scum gambit makes perfect sense and I have no trouble believing it. If he were to flip scum, I wouldn't be shocked. If the Ash wagon were to get going and I had to choose between Ash and another player, I'd often choose Ash. It makes plenty of sense for scum.
I do think people are giving him a lot of credit. Perhaps it's my fault for starting that. I give him credit because I think he reacted to the big-wall-of-calling-him-useless in a more towny way and got helpful with some interesting posts. I also thought I should be careful of latching onto only one person, hence my rereading the thread and building a case on Robz, whom I think is even more scummy than Ash at this point.
I don't think your reasons are wrong, but it seemed to me that the lynch wasn't going to happen, that he'd done enough things towny to give me more doubt, and that I needed to put another option out there that I knew wasn't manipulated by scum. I'm going to have to go back and look at things again to work out the narrative, but both the Voltaire and the Liopoil wagons seem to smell of manipulation to me. I'm just not sure who I think is manipulating who.
-
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
This doesn't really read like "scramble mode" to me. It seems like exactly what all of us are/should be doing. Isn't the big reason behind lurkers being anti-town that we need people to go out and look for scum, and that putting down votes and reads gives us something to analyze, both now and tomorrow when we can look at who was on or off what wagon?
I'm all for defending your town reads, that is perfectly towny, but voting for someone for voting your townread is much less so.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk.
Why? What do this group have in common other than all being people that others have mentioned as potential lynch candidates? To be fair, I have scumreads on chairs and nkirbit, so I wouldn't bet against you here, but where did this group come from?
I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
Alternatively, being worried that we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on someone you have a scumread on is a perfectly valid thing to worry about for town! This is the kind of logic that makes equal sense if you assume he is scum or town, because you see him as scum, you're interpreting it as scum evidence.
I don't know that Robz is an easy target either. Obviously, I'm the person that thinks he is the best target, but what makes him easier? That he's been acting suspicious?
WHY DO WE KEEP DISMISSING POSTS FOR BEING "PRETTY"?! This is bad logic, and a bad attack. Scum wants things to be persuasive, town wants things to be persuasive. People are occasionally more persuaded by a good layout, and it's certainly easier to read. That does not make a good layout either towny or scummy!
And finally, you should really notice that he was quoting and responding to Chairs immediately voting for him for making a case, not Mcmcsalot for defending Robz.
I find Mcmcsalot much scummier for this exchange. I find Chairs somewhat scummier. I'm pretty null on Voltaire. He could be scum, could be town.
(Mafia is hard! Everyone acts so suspiciously!)
-
A quick thought on the coversation about how much credit I'm receiving.
I think TA's point is valid, and the way in which people have changed since I've calmed down should be analyzed and taken into account when making reads. There are specific ways I expect scum and town to differ. For example:
And I still have a weird null read on him, for basically the same reasons you state, I just come to a different conclusion.
Hardcore hedge with very little substance. Now, here's the thing about hedging: it's almost always related to a scum read. Scum will give a scum read on a towny, then hedge, because when that person flips town, they want some wiggle room.
When would someone hedge on towncred? Well, when you are giving your scumpartner towncred, of course. So Voltaire looks scummy here, if I'm scum. Problem is, I'm not scum, so I can't hold the hedge against him like I normally would.
The expert-mode hedge is possible, in that Voltaire is hedging for the purpose of appealing to those either on the fence about me or still seeing scum (i.e., TA). I think there's only a 5% chance that this is happening here, though.
How about UoS? He responded to TA's question, too:
In my case, that's because (and I admit this may not be true, and I never moved him beyond null-at best) my big wall post of how few contributions he'd made during the game was intended to shame him into helping more if he were actually town as some people seemed to be insisting, and perhaps drive him crazier if he were really committed to this weird gambit as scum. In my opinion, he reacted to that as Town would (after a brief rage period, which I can understand.)
I still agree with you that a scum gambit makes perfect sense and I have no trouble believing it. If he were to flip scum, I wouldn't be shocked. If the Ash wagon were to get going and I had to choose between Ash and another player, I'd often choose Ash. It makes plenty of sense for scum.
I do think people are giving him a lot of credit. Perhaps it's my fault for starting that. I give him credit because I think he reacted to the big-wall-of-calling-him-useless in a more towny way and got helpful with some interesting posts. I also thought I should be careful of latching onto only one person, hence my rereading the thread and building a case on Robz, whom I think is even more scummy than Ash at this point.
I don't think your reasons are wrong, but it seemed to me that the lynch wasn't going to happen, that he'd done enough things towny to give me more doubt, and that I needed to put another option out there that I knew wasn't manipulated by scum. I'm going to have to go back and look at things again to work out the narrative, but both the Voltaire and the Liopoil wagons seem to smell of manipulation to me. I'm just not sure who I think is manipulating who.
UoS goes into depth about his change of heart. He felt that there would be a difference in reactions between town!ash and scum!ash, and saw more towny. No hedging, here, except for the bolded bits. If UoS is scum, he's buying towncred by using the knowledge he has that I am town to look like he was scumhunting on me. If he's town, he's doing a good job looking objectively at me. It also looks like he could be bussing here, but again, I'm not scum, so I can disregard that.
That's my take on the two responses to TA. Scummy-looking but actually null response from Voltaire and a reasonable one from UoS.
-
Vote Count 1.12
Meanwhile in the Kitchen The Singing Telegram Girl, Mr. Green and Yvette the Maid were searching for yuma.
"What is that smell!" said The Singing Telegram Girl as they walked onto the linoleum floor. "It smells awful."
"It is our dinner, remember... Monkey's brain soup," said Yvette the Maid.
"Monkey's brain soup! Is that what we ate?" shouted Mr. Green. "I thought we were eating Monkey Brand soup! (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://pavementart.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/1-monkey-brand-1901.jpg&imgrefurl=http://screever.org/2012/07/31/monkey-brand-soap-1899-1901/&h=1391&w=998&sz=421&tbnid=LGE5QGdAiiT5RM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=67&zoom=1&usg=__N2XWA4NPLFmWl9eVvlMVNZUjfdo=&docid=g3Q94WIMoSV8vM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W4PoUbvYPM6CyAHRvYG4CA&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAA&dur=4553)" followed by a retching sound as he lunged toward the Kitchen sink.
After a few moments his face turned from Green to more of a Pink and he said, "Wait! What is this?"
Mr. Green turned around to the two women with a large kitchen Knife in his hand. Dripping from its handle was blood!
ashersky (2): TA, Eevee
Voltaire (4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
Robz (2): Snow, Voltaire
TA (1): ashersky
chairs (1): nkirbit
Not voting: (3) liopoil, Jimmmm, raerae
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 Ends in 8 days. July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
EFHW and Jorbles will be performing vote counts while mail-mi and I are VLA. Robz will be texting me during this period if any flips and locks are required.
-
Okay, just over 3 hours to the soft deadline and we don't even seem to be trying to make it. Are we just giving up on this? I'm fine with that, but if so, why did we all agree to it?
Anyway, I was trying to figure out why the votes all land where they did. Here are the reasons for voting, as best I can figure, and some comments on ones I happened to find more interesting.
Twistedarcher still lists Ashersky as his top scumread and has not moved off him.
Eevee says Robz-Mcmcsalot interactions look weird, thinks one is scum, hasn't changed his vote since Monday, has made 3 short posts in this game since.
Robz has been parked on Voltaire since Saturday. He posted 13 times between then and his post on Tuesday (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269132#msg269132) which clarified why he voted for Voltaire: because he was cautious and reactive. He then called chairs scummy for having a reasonable, defusing explaination for semi-lurking, Twistedarcher for saying "humor me" (implied) and has posted a fair amount today altough not in this thread, and not saying anything more about Voltaire.
Shraeye has been on Voltaire since Tuesday (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269182#msg269182). For Volt policy-voting Ash I think? I'm not entirely clear on shraeye's exacty reasons.
chairs moved off his top scum read of Robz for lack of gut-instinct and because his "gut alarm" went off for Voltaire voting for Robz.
mcmcsalot is voting for Voltaire for reasons I already disagreed with above, but basically for "scrambling" and voting for Robz.
I'm on Robz for the reasons I explained here.
I think Robz is currently my top scumread though. First for his continually baffling example of that previous game in his first post, where he seems to mis-explain just about everything if I'm reading the followups right, and where he uses "We made a plan, then a bunch of complicated shit happened which didn't relate to the plan, therefore plans are bad.", for his voting Volt based of TA's minor-calling-out-of-Volt and then without further comment escalating that into him being "manifestly the scummiest player". He seems to bring up the Volt case a lot without expanding on it until 481 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269132#msg269132) where he says there were a bunch of other examples without pointing them out. Also for ignoring me asking about this back in 395 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268845#msg268845).
And dismissing Chairs' entire defense by calling it reasonable, therefore scummy in 517 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269319#msg269319) is a nice way to keep pushing a potential mislynch without engaging in the reasoning in any way.
And as Ash points out in 521 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269369#msg269369), Robz keeps saying that he sucks at being town. I think this could be a good way to push a mislynch and set us up not to assign too much blame for it later.
Vote: Robz
Voltaire is on Robz for my reasons, and from his post here. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269978#msg269978)
Ashersky is on TwistedArcher for "nkirbit posting about liopoil" style post. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269384#msg269384) Which I assume refers to nkirbit's scummy vote on liopoil (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268965#msg268965) for saying what he would do were he scum. However, the TA post Ash quotes (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269229#msg269229) seems less scummy to me in that it isn't some new, far-out accusation of Ash as scum, it's just explaining why TA still believes it. Can you clarify your vote on TwistedArcher, Ash?
nkirbit is on chairs for repeatedly hopping on wagons without good reasoning. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg270074#msg270074) and said this about chairs' earlier vote on Ash Chairs is the scummiest for me, though. Voting someone, and in the same post saying something like "hope I'm not wrong!" gives me the impression that you're covering for when it goes wrong. And who knows it's going to go wrong? Scum!
Liopoil has never voted thus far in this game. (Why not?)
Jimmmmm unvoted from Ashersky and never revoted.
raerae unvoted from Liopoil (recently) and never revoted.
If we aren't even going to try to discuss our votes, why don't we just say we don't need to have a soft deadline?
-
P.S. I'm leaning toward "let's not bother with this stupid deadline" since I think we all need more time to carefully consider a good lynch rather than rushing. But I feel like people are just waiting around for me to keep posting (on the night we all said we'd be on to hash this out) so that the posts from earlier today can go unanswered (except for by Ashersky). Maybe I'm paranoid.
Earlier today I realized that I now consider 6 people scummy! This means I must be wrong about half of them! This is unsettling. Fortunately there are levels.
Most wanted lynch: Robz.
Would be happy to lynch: Mcmcsalot.
Would have no problem with lynching: chairs, nkirbit, Shraeye, Ashersky.
I'd rather go with one of Robz or Mcmcsalot as my top reads, but any of those 6 have a 50% chance of being scum from my point of view, which is much better than my guess at the odds on anyone else.
Am I correct in assuming that our logic here should be voting for the best viable lynch that is one of our scumreads, rather than pushing on our top lynch at the expense of a townread getting lynched? Because that's the logic I'm using when I say I'd be okay with lynching chairs, nkirbit, Shraeye, or Ashersky. I'm not going to sit here building cases on them, but I find them all scummy enough that I think a case on one of them and a wagon that did not reek of scum manipulation would make me okay with voting for any of them compared to the other players.
Whereas I'm actively hoping we can lynch Robz or Mcmcsalot at this point.
-
UoS, I agree that mcmcsalot or Robz would be good lynches.
I prefer mcmcsalot, though.
You and I could put Voltaire to L-1 right now if we wanted. Not saying we should, just that we could.
I have the following popsquiz:
Want to lynch: mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt
Would lynch: Eevee, liopoil, chairs, nkirbit, Jimmmmm
Won't lynch: me, UoS, raerae, shraeye
As for our logic...push for your top scumreads, be willing to vote for lesser scumreads if it means ending the day at a good time. Don't vote for townreads, even if we need to end the day. (That last bit is my own thinking, having done that so often to bad effect.)
-
Ash, can you say why you want to lynch TA, again? I disagree with him in that I don't think you're scum, but I absolutely get where he's coming from with your argument. The only case I've seen you present is that scum!TA = emotional!TA, but I don't get the sense that he's being emotional here. Certainly less so than he was in Pirates. Maybe a little frustrated, but I would by no means describe him as emotional here (although maybe that's just because I have the benefit of knowing him). And you described his points on you as "valid"... do you have any more explanation for your read that that?
-
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
-
Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
This is the second time that we've seen Chairs hop on a wagon without a good reason to do so. I was unconvinced by his reasoning for voting Ashersky, and here we don't even have an explanation, just a "gut feeling".
Vote: Chairs
Ch-ch-ch-chainsaaawwww!
But seriously, my scumreads are nkirbit and Voltaire.
-
Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".
With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.
He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.
Literally no one responded to this.
I think you are half correct that, if I was scum, and I did this, this is the resolution I'd want. I mean, I've sat at L-2 a few times for awhile, and survived. I don't think it's what scum wants overall though. Lots of attention, the very real possibility of dying on D1 (we know that scum losing someone on D1 is almost always fatal), it's not great. Sure, it allows for bussing, but who's going to get free towncred for supporting my lynch if I were scum?
I will say, your final sentence is important. I was trying to make a point. I think I did.
It also resulted in some discussion/reactions/behavior that I think will help us catch scum. It may not have rubbed everyone the right way, but it was useful.
I'll vote: Twistedarcher for now. This is a "nkirbit posting about liopoil" post, and worth a vote.
Here's the post you linked, in which I voted for TA. I'll say up front I don't think TA will get lynched today.
What I meant was that I felt TA's post quote there, and others like it, were written with a specific aim--that of painting me as scummy where scumminess wasn't actually present. That's something nkirbit did when he quoted a liopoil post and called it super scummy even though it wasn't.
A possible scum tell is trying to paint otherwise towny/null posts as scummy, and building a case around it. You need to get town to believe other townies are scum so they get lynched, right?
I think that TA's constant refrain about me is him trying to push my lynch by painting things as scummy. Yes, there was plenty in my posts that folks reacted negatively to, but being annoyed with me is different than actually thinking I'm scum.
His last paragraph in the quote above, where he makes the argument that "that's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched" is the best example, I think. He's making the point that I have to be one or the other; annoyed to the point of wanting to be lynched (and therefore town) OR scum. It's clear to most that I was trying to make a very loud point. If I absolutely wanted out of the game, I could just /out. So I don't think the characterization that he uses with that argument is a towny one.
I don't know about the emotional vs. not. He seems to be pretty invested in me being scum and annoyed that folks have backed off of me. That's more emotion than I normally see from him.
-
((while talking about ash))
I still agree with you that a scum gambit makes perfect sense and I have no trouble believing it. If he were to flip scum, I wouldn't be shocked. If the Ash wagon were to get going and I had to choose between Ash and another player, I'd often choose Ash. It makes plenty of sense for scum.
If you were to flip scum, I wouldn't be shocked.
-
Shraeye has been on Voltaire since Tuesday (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269182#msg269182). For Volt policy-voting Ash I think? I'm not entirely clear on shraeye's exacty reasons.
You could probably read my posts and figure out why, if you want.
-
oh my, soft deadline soon. ugh. I don't think we should try to meet it, just lynch soon after. I am gonna have to leave soon, so won't be around at midnight. And I haven't really gotten into this game at all, and haven't voted or contributed much in terms of reads.
Well, my reads so far:
townreads: UoS, ashersky, probably most people not listed anywhere in this post
maybe scumreads, but I would need to actually read their posts again: nkirbit, voltaire, robz, raerae, mcmcsalot.
So yeah, pretty weak. Probably won't have a ton of time to catch up tommorow or the weekend though, but I'll do what I can.
-
Shraeye has been on Voltaire since Tuesday (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269182#msg269182). For Volt policy-voting Ash I think? I'm not entirely clear on shraeye's exacty reasons.
You could probably read my posts and figure out why, if you want.
Your posts have not been super clear or helpful.
His last paragraph in the quote above, where he makes the argument that "that's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched" is the best example, I think. He's making the point that I have to be one or the other; annoyed to the point of wanting to be lynched (and therefore town) OR scum. It's clear to most that I was trying to make a very loud point. If I absolutely wanted out of the game, I could just /out. So I don't think the characterization that he uses with that argument is a towny one.
I don't know about the emotional vs. not. He seems to be pretty invested in me being scum and annoyed that folks have backed off of me. That's more emotion than I normally see from him.
It was clear to me you were trying to make a very loud point, but not at all clear to me that you were doing so with the best interests of town in mind.
I don't like your case on TA one bit. I don't see anything emotional at all in what TA is saying. Wouldn't you trying to keep a wagon on your top scum-read going if it got up to 5 votes? I sure would! I think TA is being completely reasonable here.
Would lynch: chairs, Robz, ash
Wouldn't lynch: UoS, TA, shraeye, raerae
Could be convinced by super-strong cases: everyone else
-
One thing I've noticed a little bit in past games is that Robz giving Mcmc a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Robz, and Mcmc giving Robz a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Mcmc. This makes me a little suspicious of Mcmc.
The only issue is you told me this in our scum qt, so I had full knowledgeof that.
Also drunk AMA
-
I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? :o
I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking". Maybe others have too, and i missed it.
But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here. I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before. I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.
That's all fair enough. I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum. Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car). I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.
This is the sort of reasonable, defusing, mild-mannered explanation I expect scum to deliver.
This post gave me an uncomfortable feeling. It's similar to his post about me in B2B. In that game, Robz was scum and I was town:
Part of my suspicion on nkirbit is that he IS playing well. He's handling pressure well, not panicking, etc. And I know he's relatively knew but I think he has the makings of a great player. So I'm looking for some decent newbie scum play from him, and I think I may be seeing it.
I'm not sure what to make as Robz as a whole. I've seen both scum and town Robz, but I've never seen anything like him in this game. He's much more cryptic here, posting messages such as "...how indeed?" It doesn't match either my perceptions of his scum or town metas. Early in the game, he stated "metas are easily faked", meaning we shouldn't trust meta arguments, but he's going into this game with the intention of playing in a different way. Has he ever been this cryptic before? Or is this completely new?
If it's completely new, I would be wary of a player who says "metas are easily faked" in the same game as he changes his meta noticeably and (seemingly) deliberately.
-
One thing I've noticed a little bit in past games is that Robz giving Mcmc a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Robz, and Mcmc giving Robz a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Mcmc. This makes me a little suspicious of Mcmc.
The only issue is you told me this in our scum qt, so I had full knowledgeof that.
Also drunk AMA
You gave reads a couple days ago (or was that just yesterday?) and said you'd explain them...care to actually do that?
-
shraeye, be helpful or do the dishes please.
-
I'm not sure what to make as Robz as a whole. I've seen both scum and town Robz, but I've never seen anything like him in this game. He's much more cryptic here, posting messages such as "...how indeed?" It doesn't match either my perceptions of his scum or town metas. Early in the game, he stated "metas are easily faked", meaning we shouldn't trust meta arguments, but he's going into this game with the intention of playing in a different way. Has he ever been this cryptic before? Or is this completely new?
If it's completely new, I would be wary of a player who says "metas are easily faked" in the same game as he changes his meta noticeably and (seemingly) deliberately.
It's not new to me, but I've played with scumRobz more than townRobz (1 town 2 scum I think?). He's usually somewhat cryptic and comes across as unhelpful, which makes sense when he's scum. Eevee once had a rule that Robz acting towny is a scumtell for him and he's stated he doesn't put as much effort in when he's town. Take it for what you will.
-
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
This is an absurdly scummy vote. It justifies his vote entirely and possibly too much "this is policy", "I've gotten enough reads today", "hence, my comfort in casting this vote". Yet his stated reason for doing this is that Voltaire "cannot see how ash is possibly helping town". This basically is just a weak echo of what Umbrage has been loudly saying. (backed up by other folks, names I'm not recalling right now).
Hey look, I found it for you guys. Here is a major reason that I'm voting for Voltaire, and nobody has responded to this at all. Cool.
Also, there is the bit where I voted as well.
See, the problem is that you aren't even answering the question ashersky is asking. You're just jumping up at the opportunity to triple-validate your vote on him and also encourage others to see ashersky as scummy.
In response, Voltaire says that instead of blaming ashersky for the thread stopping, he should have blamed me. Brace yourself for a barrage of "you're misrepresenting me!" posts from Voltaire, but please also do me the favor of rereading mine and Volt's previous exchange. We had some misunderstanding there, but Volt leaves main points unanswered while attacking the minor details (like where I didn't see he had answered a question; the missing-answer to that question wasn't really the main point of any of my scumread)
-
Shraeye has been on Voltaire since Tuesday (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269182#msg269182). For Volt policy-voting Ash I think? I'm not entirely clear on shraeye's exacty reasons.
You could probably read my posts and figure out why, if you want.
Your posts have not been super clear or helpful.
His last paragraph in the quote above, where he makes the argument that "that's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched" is the best example, I think. He's making the point that I have to be one or the other; annoyed to the point of wanting to be lynched (and therefore town) OR scum. It's clear to most that I was trying to make a very loud point. If I absolutely wanted out of the game, I could just /out. So I don't think the characterization that he uses with that argument is a towny one.
I don't know about the emotional vs. not. He seems to be pretty invested in me being scum and annoyed that folks have backed off of me. That's more emotion than I normally see from him.
It was clear to me you were trying to make a very loud point, but not at all clear to me that you were doing so with the best interests of town in mind.
I don't like your case on TA one bit. I don't see anything emotional at all in what TA is saying. Wouldn't you trying to keep a wagon on your top scum-read going if it got up to 5 votes? I sure would! I think TA is being completely reasonable here.
Would lynch: chairs, Robz, ash
Wouldn't lynch: UoS, TA, shraeye, raerae
Could be convinced by super-strong cases: everyone else
I believe you have a bit of a bias against me at this point, so you won't like any case I make on anyone.
-
I'm not sure what to make as Robz as a whole. I've seen both scum and town Robz, but I've never seen anything like him in this game. He's much more cryptic here, posting messages such as "...how indeed?" It doesn't match either my perceptions of his scum or town metas. Early in the game, he stated "metas are easily faked", meaning we shouldn't trust meta arguments, but he's going into this game with the intention of playing in a different way. Has he ever been this cryptic before? Or is this completely new?
If it's completely new, I would be wary of a player who says "metas are easily faked" in the same game as he changes his meta noticeably and (seemingly) deliberately.
It's not new to me, but I've played with scumRobz more than townRobz (1 town 2 scum I think?). He's usually somewhat cryptic and comes across as unhelpful, which makes sense when he's scum. Eevee once had a rule that Robz acting towny is a scumtell for him and he's stated he doesn't put as much effort in when he's town. Take it for what you will.
I've seen this Robz before too. It was town!Robz. So he could be faking it this time for that cred, or he's just town again.
-
One thing I've noticed a little bit in past games is that Robz giving Mcmc a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Robz, and Mcmc giving Robz a towny read for little reason = a little bit of a scum tell for Mcmc. This makes me a little suspicious of Mcmc.
The only issue is you told me this in our scum qt, so I had full knowledgeof that.
Also drunk AMA
This could be a fantastic gambit by mcmc. Loving it. Also, still my #1 lynch choice.
-
Brace yourself for a barrage of "you're misrepresenting me!" posts from Voltaire, but please also do me the favor of rereading mine and Volt's previous exchange. We had some misunderstanding there, but Volt leaves main points unanswered while attacking the minor details (like where I didn't see he had answered a question; the missing-answer to that question wasn't really the main point of any of my scumread)
Then let's try this again, if you'd still like an answer. I'll give it my best shot. What's the question?
-
I don't like your case on TA one bit. I don't see anything emotional at all in what TA is saying. Wouldn't you trying to keep a wagon on your top scum-read going if it got up to 5 votes? I sure would! I think TA is being completely reasonable here.
I believe you have a bit of a bias against me at this point, so you won't like any case I make on anyone.
That may be, but it still would seem worth either explaining your vote or moving it to Mcmcsalot (or whoever) and explaining that vote when we probably get back into it tomorrow. I'm honestly not clear on it either, although it gives me a null read on you rather than a strong desire to vote for you, I think it's still worth talking about.
-
I don't like your case on TA one bit. I don't see anything emotional at all in what TA is saying. Wouldn't you trying to keep a wagon on your top scum-read going if it got up to 5 votes? I sure would! I think TA is being completely reasonable here.
I believe you have a bit of a bias against me at this point, so you won't like any case I make on anyone.
That may be, but it still would seem worth either explaining your vote or moving it to Mcmcsalot (or whoever) and explaining that vote when we probably get back into it tomorrow. I'm honestly not clear on it either, although it gives me a null read on you rather than a strong desire to vote for you, I think it's still worth talking about.
Really? Did you miss my explanation post that is also on this page?
-
Really? Did you miss my explanation post that is also on this page?
So you did. And I read it and I thought it was reasonable, while disagreeing with it. And now I feel like an idiot.
-
For what it's worth, I took what Jimmmm said as a joke, I laughed at it anyway. I suppose that isn't really worth anything of course, and we have nothing else to go on. Only thing I'm sure of is that communism is a red herring.
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
I have a stronger town read on you right now, simply because I can't see mafia coming out of the gate with a plan to help town keep/use a power role to the best of its ability.
Hey, volt, I'm on your reread now...can you explain the bolded part? I feel like that's pretty much the definition of scummy...
-
Really? Did you miss my explanation post that is also on this page?
So you did. And I read it and I thought it was reasonable, while disagreeing with it. And now I feel like an idiot.
Not an idiot. Thanks for going back to find it.
-
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
Hey, volt, I'm on your reread now...can you explain the bolded part? I feel like that's pretty much the definition of scummy...
Flavor claim = bad
Town should know this
So suggesting flavor claim means either
A) scum move to try to trick town into doing a bad thing
B) town move to try to trick scum into trying to trick town into doing a bad thing
at which point in B) after someone agreed, the original poster (Jimmmm in this case) would go "Ah-hah!"
The town explanation is it's a trap. I believe we talked about these earlier.
-
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
Hey, volt, I'm on your reread now...can you explain the bolded part? I feel like that's pretty much the definition of scummy...
So Volt says that the only way Jimmmmm's flavor-claim suggestion is not scummy is if it was a town gambit. I agree that may be overstating it (as I like these crazy theory-based plans) but why is Volt's saying suggesting flavor-claiming is scummy in itself scummy?
Seems much more reasonable than many of the scumminess accusations various people have made.
I hope I didn't misspell anything in this highly edited post...
-
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
Hey, volt, I'm on your reread now...can you explain the bolded part? I feel like that's pretty much the definition of scummy...
So Volt says that the only way Jimmmmm's flavor-claim suggestion is not scummy is if it was a town gambit. I agree that may be overstating it (as I like these crazy theory-based plans) but why is Volt's saying suggesting flavor-claiming is scummy in itself scummy?
Seems much more reasonable than many of the scumminess accusations various people have made.
I hope I didn't misspell anything in this highly edited post...
Not really sure why you're answering this question for him? Or why your being snarky at me? In any case, when I address questions to specific people, I expect those people to answer them. Thanks for the enthusiasm though.
-
Ash feels as though he's trying to be the leading voice to me.
-
1) He'd already answered, but I didn't think he explained himself as clearly as he could have, I was hoping to save us a bunch of posts.
2) Sorry for too much enthusiasm, feel like I've been battling that all game.
3) Wasn't really intending to snark at you in particularly, raerae, more at everyone, as I feel we've as a group been finding a lot of weird things scummy and that wasn't anywhere near the most suspicious of it.
4) I may have been a bit snarkier than I should have been because I feel like Shraeye has been hostile toward me all game for no reason and the earlier post has me a bit snipish. Wasn't intended at you, thought Shraeye was the one who kept saying that earlier anyway. I'm sorry either way. If I want to make the game less snappish I probably shouldn't escalate.
I'll be on until midnight or 1-ish like I said before, but I'll try to post less until then, let you guys talk it out. You all know where I stand on votes at this point.
-
Ash feels as though he's trying to be the leading voice to me.
Your point?
-
Brace yourself for a barrage of "you're misrepresenting me!" posts from Voltaire, but please also do me the favor of rereading mine and Volt's previous exchange. We had some misunderstanding there, but Volt leaves main points unanswered while attacking the minor details (like where I didn't see he had answered a question; the missing-answer to that question wasn't really the main point of any of my scumread)
Then let's try this again, if you'd still like an answer. I'll give it my best shot. What's the question?
It wasn't a question; it was a case. In my post I highlighted again why I find you scummy. I think the barrage at ashersky when he asked why the thread was dying was going beyond the "fishing for reactions" idea. it seems instead like you were really trying to direct a lot of suspicion at ashersky, and I really don't know why.
Now with your last post
Ash feels as though he's trying to be the leading voice to me.
I think it's highly likely that ash is your partner if you flip scum.
-
Ok, I'm fabulously frustrated, my rereads are getting me a solid nowhere, I don't have strong reads anywhere other than Ash which is probably wrong because, well, why wouldn't it be? I suppose I'd vote for chairs at this point since he is the only other one I have any sort of feelings on but I'd prefer to keep people in the game who are contributing a smidge more than others.
Vote: Eevee
-
Now with your last post
Ash feels as though he's trying to be the leading voice to me.
I think it's highly likely that ash is your partner if you flip scum.
Don't worry, I didn't give away our game. Your attention would be better spent focused elsewhere.
I pointed it out because I didn't realize it up until now. Yuma correctly called lio on it D2 of B2B. It's not a strong scumtell (it's D1) but I sensed it.
-
Now with your last post
Ash feels as though he's trying to be the leading voice to me.
I think it's highly likely that ash is your partner if you flip scum.
Don't worry, I didn't give away our game.
I don't know what this means, and I don't like what I think it means. I like where my attention is focused.
-
I don't know what this means, and I don't like what I think it means. I like where my attention is focused.
You're not used to town sarcastically admitting to being scum when a horrible case is made on them?
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
-
I pointed it out because I didn't realize it up until now. Yuma correctly called lio on it D2 of B2B. It's not a strong scumtell (it's D1) but I sensed it.
Leading town is not always scummy. Yuma does it quite often as town. So does raerae. So do lots of people. I attempt to every game.
-
Ok, I'm fabulously frustrated, my rereads are getting me a solid nowhere, I don't have strong reads anywhere other than Ash which is probably wrong because, well, why wouldn't it be? I suppose I'd vote for chairs at this point since he is the only other one I have any sort of feelings on but I'd prefer to keep people in the game who are contributing a smidge more than others.
Vote: Eevee
I get the lurker lynch thing, but this is a vote based solely on that. You don't have a stronger scum read?
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
I'm surely not giving his reads any weight at this point.
-
It's worth noting that the HARD deadline is actually in 3 days, assuming the 22nd thing is correct, and the countdown just hasn't been updating when the votecounts do. This worries me, I thought we had more time than this. Particularly with all the people that say they can't be around much on the weekends, and how little progress it feels like this soft deadline made.
What happens if we get to the hard deadline and haven't picked a lynch? Person with most votes? No Lynch? Either way doesn't seem very good for town.
-
What happens if we get to the hard deadline and haven't picked a lynch? Person with most votes? No Lynch? Either way doesn't seem very good for town.
No lynch.
I assume the lurkers were turned off from high interest in this game because of the tone/mood the game was taking. Perhaps that's biased of me, but it's my guess.
-
It's worth noting that the HARD deadline is actually in 3 days, assuming the 22nd thing is correct, and the countdown just hasn't been updating when the votecounts do. This worries me, I thought we had more time than this. Particularly with all the people that say they can't be around much on the weekends, and how little progress it feels like this soft deadline made.
What happens if we get to the hard deadline and haven't picked a lynch? Person with most votes? No Lynch? Either way doesn't seem very good for town.
Deadline without a lynch means no lynch which means suck.
We could probably push a Volt lynch through.
Anyone for mcmc?
-
We could probably push a Volt lynch through.
Anyone for mcmc?
Obviously I think that first option is a bad idea.
Mcmc has certainly been scummy of late but I'm used to that in his town persona. Definitely not convinced. Robz? Chairs? Ash?
-
Yeah, hard deadline is 10:30 A.M. Monday Morning! We need to get on this this weekend, and last weekend a lot of people seemed to say they weren't around much on weekends if I remember.
I am okay with lynching Robz or Mcmcsalot. I haven't seen much to convince me on Volt, and something about the case against him makes me think it is at least partly scum-driven. This makes me nervous, I don't think I'm inclined to vote for him, unless it's that or a no-lynch and I have enough doubt in my mind at that time to feel like I'm not just dooming a townie.
I will reread Volt tomorrow, then, but I don't want to vote for him if I'm still feeling he is town.
Vote: Mcmcsalot.
This vote is not meant to imply I'm any less willing to vote Robz.
-
Since you two are both very active and two of the people who seem likely to actually cast a vote, lets look at lynches that don't involve either Ash or Volt for a moment.
-
vote: mcmcsalot
He was my candidate from the beginning, and no one's liking my TA argument.
-
Ok, I'm fabulously frustrated, my rereads are getting me a solid nowhere, I don't have strong reads anywhere other than Ash which is probably wrong because, well, why wouldn't it be? I suppose I'd vote for chairs at this point since he is the only other one I have any sort of feelings on but I'd prefer to keep people in the game who are contributing a smidge more than others.
Vote: Eevee
I'm actually close to a lurker!Eevee vote.
-
I don't know what mcmc is doing that is so scummy. Sure he is under posting a tad, but that's been a trend from him lately regardless of alignment (I know him to be busy IRL).
Eevee, on the other hand, is WAY under.
-
I don't know what mcmc is doing that is so scummy. Sure he is under posting a tad, but that's been a trend from him lately regardless of alignment (I know him to be busy IRL).
Eevee, on the other hand, is WAY under.
Mcmc isn't scummy for lurking.
Eevee's been lurking everywhere, including other ongoing games, Goko, etc. I don't think it's indicative of alignment. I think being scum would be one of the few things that would keep him posting more often.
-
Let me just repeat myself, since this got mostly ignored.
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
This doesn't really read like "scramble mode" to me. It seems like exactly what all of us are/should be doing. Isn't the big reason behind lurkers being anti-town that we need people to go out and look for scum, and that putting down votes and reads gives us something to analyze, both now and tomorrow when we can look at who was on or off what wagon?
I'm all for defending your town reads, that is perfectly towny, but voting for someone for voting your townread is much less so.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk.
Why? What do this group have in common other than all being people that others have mentioned as potential lynch candidates? To be fair, I have scumreads on chairs and nkirbit, so I wouldn't bet against you here, but where did this group come from?
I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
Alternatively, being worried that we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on someone you have a scumread on is a perfectly valid thing to worry about for town! This is the kind of logic that makes equal sense if you assume he is scum or town, because you see him as scum, you're interpreting it as scum evidence.
I don't know that Robz is an easy target either. Obviously, I'm the person that thinks he is the best target, but what makes him easier? That he's been acting suspicious?
WHY DO WE KEEP DISMISSING POSTS FOR BEING "PRETTY"?! This is bad logic, and a bad attack. Scum wants things to be persuasive, town wants things to be persuasive. People are occasionally more persuaded by a good layout, and it's certainly easier to read. That does not make a good layout either towny or scummy!
And finally, you should really notice that he was quoting and responding to Chairs immediately voting for him for making a case, not Mcmcsalot for defending Robz.
I find Mcmcsalot much scummier for this exchange. I find Chairs somewhat scummier. I'm pretty null on Voltaire. He could be scum, could be town.
(Mafia is hard! Everyone acts so suspiciously!)
Basically, I think Mcmcsalot's post on Volt reads much more like a scummy pushing of a wagon than Ash's case on TA, although following basically the same logic.
-
Rather, than Ash's case on TA's case...
Sorry for being confusing.
-
So Chairs was the first person to agree to the soft deadline (although I notice a lot of people never commented on it, Chairs did).
Chairs made that sketchy, gut-only vote earlier today (noon) and promised a reread tonight.
Chairs hasn't posted since.
Chairs has posted in other threads since, at 10:50 P.M and 4:40 P.M.
He didn't seem to work towards trying to meet the deadline at all.
Do any of you think there's anything worth reading into this? I know real life can happen, but he's been on and hasn't even been in to say "sorry, I didn't get that reread done." If this weren't about defending a sketchy vote, I might be less suspicious, but I'm getting more okay with voting Chairs the more I think about it.
-
I think our biggest issue is getting a lynch done. The weekend looms and it'll really put a damper on things.
-
Well I'm going to bed. But hopefully some people tomorrow can discuss things in light of the HARD deadline being Monday morning?
-
You know who else has been lurking? That Jimmmmm guy.
Yeah, I've kind of lost track of this game a little bit due to RL busyness. I'll try to do some re-reads when I can, hopefully tomorrow afternoon.
-
You know who else has been lurking? That Jimmmmm guy.
Yeah, I've kind of lost track of this game a little bit due to RL busyness. I'll try to do some re-reads when I can, hopefully tomorrow afternoon.
Oh. YOU ARE PLAYING?
-
You know who else has been lurking? That Jimmmmm guy.
Yeah, I've kind of lost track of this game a little bit due to RL busyness. I'll try to do some re-reads when I can, hopefully tomorrow afternoon.
Oh. YOU ARE PLAYING?
Yeah. Sorry.
-
Sad sad times, I caught the flu, just slept for 12 hours. On the plus side it probably means better availability for the weekend, which works well with the monday deadline. Anyways:
-I totally see the scummy feel about mcmc. I'm a by worried it's coming "too easy" though, as mcmc is generally a strong scum player. It really could just be the soave-family curse of being a prime day 1 mislynch whenever they are town.
-The Voltaire case I just don't see. Well, he isn't seeming overly towny to me either, but whenever someone is wagoned on for reasons I find unconvincing, I tend to read that player townier because scum manipulation is a real possibility.
-I wholeheartedly agree with TA about ash, my vote has been parked there for a reason. I disagree about giving him any town cred for stopping the insanity; that's actually exactly what I'd expect him to do if it was a scum gambit. Think about it, he got exactly what we wanted, why go on and risk it when he can just do this?
-I too had forgotten Jimm was even playing. Generally I think of him as a guy who wants to try hard and excel when scum, so this is a reluctant reminds me of bankers - towntell for Jimm, in my opinion anyways.
-Robz is a mystery to me, I think he has finally realized what his meta really is and is successfully muddying that up now.
-TA is someone I seem to agree with a lot. I feel he has always been town except for that one blitz game where we didn't agree, so I'm giving him a small town read, fully realizing similar thought processes are a shady basis for a read.
-Got nothing on nkirbit, seems to be playing a solid game that never gets you lynched day 1 (but is very valid for a townie too).
-Chairs I find on the scummier side, but it's a meta/gut thing and I can talk about innovation yet. Not a big deal though, I don't have anything groundbreaking there anyways.
preferred lynch:
ashersky
would and will participate if need be:
chairs, mcmc
two hours left and nolynch is the alternative:
I would really try to read how people react in a dire situation, but would seriously consider almost anyone, definitely robz and nkirbit before many others.
-
Oh, forgot shraeye and raerae which is weird. Sorry you too!
I sort of agree with Snow about the tone shraeye seems to be taking towards him, but I really don't see any reason for scum to purposefully antagonize townies (which i still think snow is, this is as strong of a read I'll ever have day 1), so I guess it even makes shraeye a bit townier (I hadn't realized this before typing this out).
I usually think at least one or both of raerae and shraeye are scum (bias..), here they literally didn't even pop to mind when typing that long post. they both fall to the "would maybe lynch to avoid nolynch unless their reactions felt genuine", so essentially a null read as hopefully it doesn't go to that. Maybe I have no strong impressions about them because they've been questioning people a lot, not really answering that much themselves? I'm sorry to talk about you as "them", of course you are individuals but due to the claiming stance or whatever, I kind of have the same reads on both of you (which is pretty much the read I have on nkirbit).
-
-I wholeheartedly agree with TA about ash, my vote has been parked there for a reason. I disagree about giving him any town cred for stopping the insanity; that's actually exactly what I'd expect him to do if it was a scum gambit. Think about it, he got exactly what we wanted, why go on and risk it when he can just do this?
preferred lynch:
ashersky
Really? You've been scum with me multiple times now. You know better.
-
That's the problem with intentionally seeming scummy as town.. it's intentional, you can just as well do it as scum.
It's obviously only going to work once, and I've been observing and wondering when will you use your "free pass" (you sort of did with the fight against mcmc in mean girls, but not really). Well, with this being a yuma game people were pretty excited about, seems fitting you'd do it here.
I'm curious though, why should I know better? Can you explain it to me, why should I realize you are town? For this exercise, you may assume I'm town, regardless of what you think.
-
That's the problem with intentionally seeming scummy as town.. it's intentional, you can just as well do it as scum.
It's obviously only going to work once, and I've been observing and wondering when will you use your "free pass" (you sort of did with the fight against mcmc in mean girls, but not really). Well, with this being a yuma game people were pretty excited about, seems fitting you'd do it here.
I'm curious though, why should I know better? Can you explain it to me, why should I realize you are town? For this exercise, you may assume I'm town, regardless of what you think.
I really just think that we've played in so many games now that I'd have a hard time convincing you of anything with a fake effort.
I'm not looking for a free pass. I was ready to be lynched earlier today. If you and TA manage it now, good for you (but you'll regret it on D2 if you guys are scumbuddies). I refer back again to our VT argument in Masons and Monks, where we were both town. I felt this was most reminiscent of that.
Intentionally scummy/odd as town was Bankers, if you recall. I do think riling people up is a good way to flush out scum--both town and scum say things in the heat of the moment and they don't think it through. Scum has something to hide, though, so if I can get something to slip, it's helpful.
Compare this to D1s in Mean Girls and Mafia Noir, my mafia MVP games. Or compare it to Sea Hags, my first game as scum where I sucked. Or Switch, where I also sucked. I've definitely improved my scum game immensely.
Could I have decided to do a gambit on D1? I guess. But I think that's a bad idea. See us in Mean Girls, with the timing of my fake claim. Plus, how did my actions today in this game help my scum team overall? Who could me my partners? (I'd say you make sense. Maybe chairs/nkirbit.)
In the end, the important question is "was it worth it to scum!ash and his teammates?" That's the question I would ask myself if I was scum. In this case, the answer is no.
-
If it is a gambit, you never intend for it to go through. You intend for this to happen. That post was not convincing at all!
-
If it is a gambit, you never intend for it to go through. You intend for this to happen. That post was not convincing at all!
So get some folks together and lynch me!
-
If it is a gambit, you never intend for it to go through. You intend for this to happen. That post was not convincing at all!
So get some folks together and lynch me!
I am trying, yes.
-
If it is a gambit, you never intend for it to go through. You intend for this to happen. That post was not convincing at all!
So get some folks together and lynch me!
I am trying, yes.
Here's a deal. If you can get me to L-1, I'll hammer on Sunday night if we don't have scum to lynch.
-
One thing about ash I'm noticing, it seems he is subtly trying to push "only scum Eevee would suspect me" without ever really explicitly saying he is finding me scummy. I feel whenever ash is addressing me, he is trying to bend me to his will and it certainly doesn't feel like he thinks we are on the same side, but when he is talking about me to others, he is (both reasonably and correctly) explaining why I'm probably town.
-
Vote Count 1.13
Meanwhile on the second floor Mrs. White, Mrs. Scarlett and The Cop were about to peer into three bedrooms. They were spooooky! One was rrenaud's. No one wanted to go in there. Eventually Mrs. White volunteered.
"Do you want me to with you?" asked The Cop.
"Not on your life." said Mrs. White. "I don't trust either of you. You two go into those other two rooms while I check this one."
Each party guest slowly walked slowly to their doors. They all looked back at each other as they grasped the handles. Each guest took a step into the doorway and then a step back out looking at each other with suspicion. It was a pretty ridiculous scene.
"This is a ridiculous scene," said Professor Plum coming up the stairs. "What are you all doing?"
"What are you doing abandoning your post!" The Cop shouted.
"Oh Mrs. Peacock is driving me batty. Would any of you be willing to trade positions with me, I can't stand to be around her another second," Professor Plum said.
"I will," said Mrs. Scarlett. "Anything is better than traipsing around with a cop and this wacko," pointing at Mrs. White.
"Ha! You are just like my third husband," Mrs. White retorted.
"Third? How many husbands have you had?" asked Mrs. Scarlett.
"Mine or other women's?" came the response.
"Yours."
"Five."
"Five?" asked The Cop, a little in disbelief.
"Yes, just the five. Husbands should be like Kleenex: soft, strong and disposable," said Mrs. White.
ashersky (2): TA, Eevee
Voltaire (4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
Robz (1): Voltaire
chairs (1): nkirbit
Eevee: (1): raerae
mcmcsalot: (2) Snow, ashersky
Not voting: (2) liopoil, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Snow: Sorry, I got home and Civ5 happened. I've been mildly active elsewhere, but deep rereads just don't look like they're going to happen for me unless I happen to have nothing going on tomorrow (and I'm pretty sure my family has something planned).
Ashersky: So your key position here appears to be "If I flip town, Eevee is scum." -- Am I understanding you correctly?
-
If it is a gambit, you never intend for it to go through. You intend for this to happen. That post was not convincing at all!
So get some folks together and lynch me!
I am trying, yes.
Here's a deal. If you can get me to L-1, I'll hammer on Sunday night if we don't have scum to lynch.
Ugh...I mean really ash, too far. You really are taking away from any other actions of the day b shoving focus onto you. If you get through today we will debate lynching you again tomorrow, this whole "lynch me" thing won't work forever but if you distract us Long enough you will have sacrificed yourself to put scum in a good position which is something we know you to do(sacrifice to put your team in a better spot) I am changing my read on you because I strongly believe you just play to help your team which often involves your lynch, earlier your forcing of the flow o conversation was helping town, now it is detrimental.
That's my argument I tell myself to be okay with lynching ash. I sadly am more confident that he is hurting town than that he is scum.
vote: ash
-
Snow: Sorry, I got home and Civ5 happened. I've been mildly active elsewhere, but deep rereads just don't look like they're going to happen for me unless I happen to have nothing going on tomorrow (and I'm pretty sure my family has something planned).
Ashersky: So your key position here appears to be "If I flip town, Eevee is scum." -- Am I understanding you correctly?
Eevee, TA, and mcmc are my top scum reads.
-
Bleh, I didn't realize volt was that viable to getting lynched and I don't want to stop that from happening, he is my top scum read. So vote: volt
Also I guess as gets town points because eevee has slipped into my scum reads due to that fact that he seems more confused/suspicious of me robz and ash than I think he should be.
-
Volt is in the would lynch category for me.
-
Well this game took a weird turn! Mcmc looks scummy as all get-out for jumping off and on me, ash has started playing weird again, Eevee is back (yay! Eevee is fun to play with!), and everything is nuts now.
It means something that a decent amount of town appears willing to lynch the same players I am. I am going to try to spend today figuring out what excatly that means.
Eevee, why do you say mcmc would be "too easy" when he only has two votes?
-
I don't know what this means, and I don't like what I think it means. I like where my attention is focused.
You're not used to town sarcastically admitting to being scum when a horrible case is made on them?
Well first, you haven't even debated my case, you just fiated it as 'horrible'. Second, sarcastic is shraeye. I do not remember sarcastic Voltaire ever. I remember calm, cool, very analyzing, debate logically with yuma even though yuma is a scumread (in B2B mafia) Voltaire...and he was town.
Seriously, Vote: Voltaire
-
To be clear in that last post, the person who is town (unclear pronoun at the end) was the calm cool Voltaire that I described. The person who this game's Voltaire isn't.
-
Oh, I wasn't referring to the wagon, I was referring to the "case". The scummy "mistakes" we've "caught" him making are sort of obvious - I would sort of expect scum mcmc to realize playing like that makes getting lynched day 1 a real threat. Now, maybe he just is so busy he can't help it (I think being busy points more towards scum mcmc than the other way around), but still, generally it's quite easy to avoid day 1 suspicion as mafia here - just need to put in the effort.
I hadn't realized I was such a scum read for ash, so I was about to call chairs out on (possibly) lining up his mislynches. Alas, it seems in this game people call me scummy for not realizing they are town (this is essentially extortion - "find me towny or I'll try to get you lynched"), which is an argument I really don't like - especially because I AM town and am genuinely pointing out my thoughts, so both mcmc or ash are either dead wrong or manipulating scum.
-
I don't know what this means, and I don't like what I think it means. I like where my attention is focused.
You're not used to town sarcastically admitting to being scum when a horrible case is made on them?
Well first, you haven't even debated my case, you just fiated it as 'horrible'. Second, sarcastic is shraeye. I do not remember sarcastic Voltaire ever. I remember calm, cool, very analyzing, debate logically with yuma even though yuma is a scumread (in B2B mafia) Voltaire...and he was town.
Seriously, Vote: Voltaire
I've played in, like, one game this year. I got frustrated this game. I am not perfect. The TownVoltaire you know is the guy who took a deep breath and said "I should take my own advice and play like I want others to play..." after getting worked up etc.
Nobody lynch me until I can do re-reads on my wagon. I'm assuming there has to be scum there. I don't think I've played so horribly I have a town-only wagon D1.
-
Oh, I wasn't referring to the wagon, I was referring to the "case". The scummy "mistakes" we've "caught" him making are sort of obvious - I would sort of expect scum mcmc to realize playing like that makes getting lynched day 1 a real threat. Now, maybe he just is so busy he can't help it (I think being busy points more towards scum mcmc than the other way around), but still, generally it's quite easy to avoid day 1 suspicion as mafia here - just need to put in the effort.
I hadn't realized I was such a scum read for ash, so I was about to call chairs out on (possibly) lining up his mislynches. Alas, it seems in this game people call me scummy for not realizing they are town (this is essentially extortion - "find me towny or I'll try to get you lynched"), which is an argument I really don't like - especially because I AM town and am genuinely pointing out my thoughts, so both mcmc or ash are either dead wrong or manipulating scum.
My list was in backwards order, so you are third, if that helps.
-
Is my vision clouded because Voltaire is going out of his way to be especially nice to me? I still still just don't see the case on him, he seems as logical and pleasant as ever to me. Shraeye, being the main wagon two days before actual hard deadline is stressful for anyone, regardless of alignment, Could that explain the difference in tone you are sensing? Could you summarize the points against Voltaire?
-
Eevee, TA, and mcmc are my top scum reads.
What changed? This wasn't very long ago:
Want to lynch: mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt
-
Snow: Sorry, I got home and Civ5 happened. I've been mildly active elsewhere, but deep rereads just don't look like they're going to happen for me unless I happen to have nothing going on tomorrow (and I'm pretty sure my family has something planned).
So this means that you will never even attempt to explain your unexplained vote on Voltaire? I may believe the real life excuse, but using it to avoid talking about your suspicious vote at all (which you STILL haven't even discussed) is pretty suspicious in itself.
You could try to explain things without doing a complete reread you know.
-
New thought I will not lynch ash today.
Ash being scum would most likely mean volt or eevee are scum because his gambit would benefit them the most. Volt it would spare for the lynching block and eevee would get towncred.
So if I find ash scummy I still want my vote in volt, if I did ash towny I don't want to vote him. So no reason to lynch ash.
-
Is revoting in bold for a wagon you're already on something that is done to drive a wagon?
Because Volt's wagon is at the same place it was last night, but skimming the page, I got it into my head that he must be at L-1 or something.
The revoting seems suspicious to me. (Shraeye and mcmcsalot.)
-
New thought I will not lynch ash today.
Ash being scum would most likely mean volt or eevee are scum because his gambit would benefit them the most. Volt it would spare for the lynching block and eevee would get towncred.
So if I find ash scummy I still want my vote in volt, if I did ash towny I don't want to vote him. So no reason to lynch ash.
Thats a pretty gigantic leap. Ash started the crazy business long before Voltaire had any suspicion on him, and both Snow and TA have been at least as vocal as I've been about ash.
-
Ok, I'm fabulously frustrated, my rereads are getting me a solid nowhere, I don't have strong reads anywhere other than Ash which is probably wrong because, well, why wouldn't it be? I suppose I'd vote for chairs at this point since he is the only other one I have any sort of feelings on but I'd prefer to keep people in the game who are contributing a smidge more than others.
Vote: Eevee
I get the lurker lynch thing, but this is a vote based solely on that. You don't have a stronger scum read?
As I said, chairs is the other one I would vote for, after reading the exchanges that happened after going to bed last night, I would add mcmc to that list for not producing details for his reads list. I've totally used the "Oh no! I lost this big giant post I was going to post listing everything ever!" excuse as scum (on another site, don't go trying to dig it up in Bankers, you won't find it).
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
I'm surely not giving his reads any weight at this point.
Um...what? Why? Just because he suspects you?
-
Is revoting in bold for a wagon you're already on something that is done to drive a wagon?
Because Volt's wagon is at the same place it was last night, but skimming the page, I got it into my head that he must be at L-1 or something.
The revoting seems suspicious to me. (Shraeye and mcmcsalot.)
I've most awesome seen revoting done (and done it myself) as emphasis when it feels people are moving away from your preferred lynch and you're confident you've hit scum. I personally don't think it says anything re: alignment.
-
Is revoting in bold for a wagon you're already on something that is done to drive a wagon?
Because Volt's wagon is at the same place it was last night, but skimming the page, I got it into my head that he must be at L-1 or something.
The revoting seems suspicious to me. (Shraeye and mcmcsalot.)
I've most awesome often seen revoting done (and done it myself) as emphasis when it feels people are moving away from your preferred lynch and you're confident you've hit scum. I personally don't think it says anything re: alignment.
Fixed that bit of mistyping.
-
So yes, but no more often for scum or town. Fair enough.
I guess I was mostly weirded out by the feeling that the Volt wagon was gaining momentum, when the fact was that it wasn't.
I seem to have strong reactions to feeling like I'm being manipulated, or to bad logic. But you're correct, they don't necessarily make something scummy. Thanks!
(See, this is why, of the people who I disagreed with a lot, Raerae seemed like the most towny to me, for actually being helpful to town and other people's scumhunting while disagreeing.)
-
This post is written with the intent of maximizing the information I can wring out of the fact that multiple players have voted for a townie (me). If you question that fact (reasonable!), this may not carry much weight.
As of when I started this post/re-read/research, the wagon on me was as follows:
(4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
The following player(s) have voted for me but are not currently on me:
(1): TwistedArcher
The following player(s) have expressed willingness to vote/lynch me:
(2): ashersky (many times), raerae (thinks I made a post that is the definition of scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg270285#msg270285) and will vote for either lio or me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269497#msg269497), but has since backed off)
(that's more than enough to put me at L-1, something I predict will probably happen)
The following player(s) have indicated they find me scummy:
(1): liopoil (maybe scumread (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg270247#msg270247))
The following player(s) have not expressed any opinion about me:
(2): Jimmmm, nkirbit
The following player(s) have stated that they do not like the case on me. I assume this means it is unlikely they vote me:
(2): UmbrageOfSnow, Eevee
So who do I find scummy here? I do not find shraeye scummy. I got a town v town vibe from our argument earlier, and I have found shraeye's other actions, and dedication to pushing my case as their top read, what I would expect from town.
Robz I do not find that additionally scummy for his vote on me. It's his other actions that give me a scum vibe. When Robz voted, TA was on me, so Robz's vote should be treated as second on my wagon (in my opinion). But Robz is no longer that strong a read for me. It's frustrating, because if Robz is scum, it means he's learned the lesson "never be townie" and he can play lite anti-town and survive as scum.
Chairs I find the most scummy. Others have covered this before, but he hopped on my wagon due to a "gut feel" that he has never explained, and it was the second time he'd done so. He's seen that TA has voted for me in the past, so he's the 3(4) vote on my wagon, tipping it over the edge to viability.
mcmc I also find scummy, but not as strongly. I don't know what to make of his ash vote, return to me, and now statement he doesn't want to lynch ash. His other contributions have been less than stellar, but mcmc did this in B2B too. If he hadn't claimed VT at the start, I would have been much more willing to vote him in that game, and he was town.
TA I have gotten town vibes from in other places, and his original vote on me is not bad. He called me out for something that scum occasionally do. Taken with his other behavior, I maintain a town read on TA.
Ash seems to be setting himself up very nicely to put me at L-1 or hammer me without seeming suspicious. It reeks of laying groundwork to me.
raerae apparently doesn't see the case on me after an (aborted?) re-read and has voted for Eevee for lurking. No info to gain there.
lio is also possibly setting himself up nicely to cast a late vote on me, but lio has faded into the background quite a bit and I'm not sure what to make of him at this point.
That's what I get from my wagon. There are some very interesting interactions going on among my scum reads that indicate either they are bussing or several of my reads are wrong, so I'm going to do more re-reading and try to puzzle that bit out.
Based on the above, I'll happily vote: chairs once again. Still open to Robz or ash.
-
Okay, Voltaires latest moves me to "firmly against lynching Volt" camp (it's pretty lonely in here).
Vote: chairs is probably in order, I doubt we can get ash today and stuff is starting to add up for him.
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
I'm surely not giving his reads any weight at this point.
Um...what? Why? Just because he suspects you?
No, because Volt's scum, and wants to discredit people for little to no reason.
-
This post is written with the intent of maximizing the information I can wring out of the fact that multiple players have voted for a townie (me). If you question that fact (reasonable!), this may not carry much weight.
As of when I started this post/re-read/research, the wagon on me was as follows:
(4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
The following player(s) have voted for me but are not currently on me:
(1): TwistedArcher
The following player(s) have expressed willingness to vote/lynch me:
(2): ashersky (many times), raerae (thinks I made a post that is the definition of scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg270285#msg270285) and will vote for either lio or me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269497#msg269497), but has since backed off)
Dude, you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding that and either way I don't like it. I felt that you described Jimmmmm's action as being the definition of scummy, not that you were scummy. Summary: You said Jimmmmm was scummy, I didn't say you were scummy.
-
Dude, you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding that and either way I don't like it. I felt that you described Jimmmmm's action as being the definition of scummy, not that you were scummy. Summary: You said Jimmmmm was scummy, I didn't say you were scummy.
Am I? Walk me through this. What I don't understand is why you would point it out. You're simply saying that I pointed out a scummy behavior by Jimmm, you posted to say you think the behavior is the definition of scummy, and that's that? So, in essence, you were agreeing with me that Jimmm's action was scummy?
This would explain why you have backed off me of late.
-
liopoil has been totally forgotten lately.
-
liopoil has been totally forgotten lately.
Not by me, but I agree with your larger point.
lio is also possibly setting himself up nicely to cast a late vote on me, but lio has faded into the background quite a bit and I'm not sure what to make of him at this point.
And nkirbit too, he's disappeared so much I didn't even list him in my wagonreads post.
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
I'm surely not giving his reads any weight at this point.
Um...what? Why? Just because he suspects you?
Reads with no explanation = virtually useless. I do not see what is so crazy about that statement!
-
This post is written with the intent of maximizing the information I can wring out of the fact that multiple players have voted for a townie (me). If you question that fact (reasonable!), this may not carry much weight.
As of when I started this post/re-read/research, the wagon on me was as follows:
(4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
The following player(s) have voted for me but are not currently on me:
(1): TwistedArcher
The following player(s) have expressed willingness to vote/lynch me:
(2): ashersky (many times), raerae (thinks I made a post that is the definition of scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg270285#msg270285) and will vote for either lio or me (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269497#msg269497), but has since backed off)
Dude, you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding that and either way I don't like it. I felt that you described Jimmmmm's action as being the definition of scummy, not that you were scummy. Summary: You said Jimmmmm was scummy, I didn't say you were scummy.
Remember how I jumped in there and annoyed you a bit (sorry again). It's because I also read that as you saying Volt was the definition of scummy for that post.
I don't think it's Volt misrepresenting you, I think it's the post not as clearly saying what you meant as you might think it does. I've got a slight town read on both of you.
-
Dude, you're misrepresenting or misunderstanding that and either way I don't like it. I felt that you described Jimmmmm's action as being the definition of scummy, not that you were scummy. Summary: You said Jimmmmm was scummy, I didn't say you were scummy.
Am I? Walk me through this. What I don't understand is why you would point it out. You're simply saying that I pointed out a scummy behavior by Jimmm, you posted to say you think the behavior is the definition of scummy, and that's that? So, in essence, you were agreeing with me that Jimmm's action was scummy?
This would explain why you have backed off me of late.
It does look like a great day for a stroll *offers arm*, shall we? I was rereading and didn't understand what I thought to be hedgey view on Jimmmmm so I questioned you on it. You answered my question, UoS was very kind to parrot that answer, both of you said you (Volt) had already answered that question and all but told me to let it die, I got frustrated, and killed that reread. I was never "on" you either so that makes it really hard to back off. I had a gut read on you, I get them from time to time, but that's the extent of any persecution you've received from me. The more you post, the more I feel like you're slinging mud, misrepresenting posts, and trying to get somebody, anybody but yourself lynched. Maybe I will resume that reread.
-
Snow: Sorry, I got home and Civ5 happened. I've been mildly active elsewhere, but deep rereads just don't look like they're going to happen for me unless I happen to have nothing going on tomorrow (and I'm pretty sure my family has something planned).
So this means that you will never even attempt to explain your unexplained vote on Voltaire? I may believe the real life excuse, but using it to avoid talking about your suspicious vote at all (which you STILL haven't even discussed) is pretty suspicious in itself.
You could try to explain things without doing a complete reread you know.
Without a reread I can only tell you that he's given me that feeling. It's kind of like when I voted Robz in B2B - I couldn't really explain it.
-
liopoil has been totally forgotten lately.
Note also that I underlined the fact that Liopoil has never voted for anyone in this game. I'm not forgetting him either. And I'm finding it a bit scummy but I don't think it's enough to lynch him on right now, (and the wagon that started on him the first time felt scummy to me, so that gives me a slight town read on him, which leaves me with too much uncertainty to feel comfortable voting him absent other evidence.)
-
liopoil has been totally forgotten lately.
Note also that I underlined the fact that Liopoil has never voted for anyone in this game. I'm not forgetting him either. And I'm finding it a bit scummy but I don't think it's enough to lynch him on right now, (and the wagon that started on him the first time felt scummy to me, so that gives me a slight town read on him, which leaves me with too much uncertainty to feel comfortable voting him absent other evidence.)
And this is exactly how I feel about lio too, to complete my read list from earlier.
-
Woah woah woah, I just posted and I have now lost it...quite sad I actually explained my reads...hmm
Hour and a half an nothing more than this? Are you going to just never explain them now because your computer glitched or whatever you're saying here?
I'm surely not giving his reads any weight at this point.
Um...what? Why? Just because he suspects you?
Reads with no explanation = virtually useless. I do not see what is so crazy about that statement!
Maybe we're on slightly different pages. You see, mcmc had said he was posting explanations for his reads but they disappeared into Never Never Land. I assumed he was coming back with them and you were saying you wouldn't give those any weight. I see that is probably not the case but as the original quote above referenced the explanations instead of the reads, I assumed that was what you were talking about.
-
I was never "on" you either so that makes it really hard to back off. I had a gut read on you, I get them from time to time, but that's the extent of any persecution you've received from me. The more you post, the more I feel like you're slinging mud, misrepresenting posts, and trying to get somebody, anybody but yourself lynched. Maybe I will resume that reread.
As I stated in my wagonreads post, you did have a post stating you would likely vote for either myself or lio. Obviously, you're no longer operating under that and that's cool.
I will say this, I absolutely would prefer to get somebody other than myself lynched (because I am town). I would expect/hope that for any town member who has a wagon D1. If it gets inevitable that I'm going down I'll give my final reads and make a graceful exit, but it's better for town if we lynch scum D1 and so I will try to do that until the bitter end.
-
liopoil has been totally forgotten lately.
Note also that I underlined the fact that Liopoil has never voted for anyone in this game. I'm not forgetting him either. And I'm finding it a bit scummy but I don't think it's enough to lynch him on right now, (and the wagon that started on him the first time felt scummy to me, so that gives me a slight town read on him, which leaves me with too much uncertainty to feel comfortable voting him absent other evidence.)
He didn't vote on D1 B2B as scum (nor D2 but the only wagon was himself). Does anyone with experience about townLio know if he does that too?
-
Okay, Voltaires latest moves me to "firmly against lynching Volt" camp (it's pretty lonely in here).
Vote: chairs is probably in order, I doubt we can get ash today and stuff is starting to add up for him.
I'm in your camp, Eevee. Let's make s'mores!
I've been looking at these interactions again today, and there is no way I'm going to vote Voltaire today without some serious new evidence.
Vote: chairs
I'm still willing to vote Robz or Mcmcsalot (and really these are the only 3 I think I'd be comfortable voting absent deadline concerns), but chairs declaration that it won't be possible for him to ever explain his vote feels cheap, on top of the vote itself seeming scummy, moreso in that it is the vote that really helped the wagon seem viable.
(Also, I'm trying my votes out on all three of my candidates to see if that gets anyone thinking about these three.)
The Voltaire case seems extremely flimsy for being the wagon with the most votes.
-
OK, I'm blowing off the Volt reread, I was annoyed 32 seconds ago when I said was going to do that. I feel more strongly about chairs, less strongly about mcmc, still think Eevee needs to get in here and help, and have lingering bad feelings about volt and lio but nothing I can really grasp right now.
Here is my original reread of chairs, I was drunk and a bit tired when I posted but I think the logic is more or less sound (nobody responded to it but chairs originally so I assume the rest of you feel roughly the same way). In addition to the below, chairs has been great about popping in when his name is mentioned but hasn't really been around for much more than that. If the Eevee lynch is off the table, I will vote chairs. I'm going to hunt down a vote count before I do something stupid and hammer or put him at L-1 or something absurd like that though.
-
OK, I'm blowing off the Volt reread, I was annoyed 32 seconds ago when I said was going to do that. I feel more strongly about chairs, less strongly about mcmc, still think Eevee needs to get in here and help, and have lingering bad feelings about volt and lio but nothing I can really grasp right now.
Here is my original reread of chairs, I was drunk and a bit tired when I posted but I think the logic is more or less sound (nobody responded to it but chairs originally so I assume the rest of you feel roughly the same way). In addition to the below, chairs has been great about popping in when his name is mentioned but hasn't really been around for much more than that. If the Eevee lynch is off the table, I will vote chairs. I'm going to hunt down a vote count before I do something stupid and hammer or put him at L-1 or something absurd like that though.
You would be the 5th vote on chairs I believe.
-
The Voltaire case seems extremely flimsy for being the wagon with the most votes.
It's a great day1 case. People need to stop getting so uptight about day1 cases not being full of 10+ solid, irrefutable points. IT'S DAY1!!
Please explain to me how the chairs case is much less flimsy than Volt's.
-
Yeah, chairs has 4 on him right now.
Raerae, I read your post back when you posted it, and disagreed with much of you reasoning, but came to similar conclusions anyway, although I didn't find him as scummy earlier, more suspiciously neutral, but I've been finding him scummier from his posts in these past few days and how he's been casting his votes in ways that strike me as designed to manipulate town with no reasoning that can possibly be picked apart or discussed.
Much of this is probably because I have a bit of trouble seeing voting Ash and talking theory as scummy for some reason ;D
But seriously, he was basically sheeping through a lot of the earlier stuff, and then kept pushing it in a way that, I think you're right, could very well be scum attempting a mislynch.
I think there were plenty of good reasons to suspect and vote Ash, but at that time chairs wasn't pushing any of these reasons, just sort of voting and agreeing.
-
uhm, because volt is actually one of the townier players around?
-
Yeah, chairs has 4 on him right now.
Raerae, I read your post back when you posted it, and disagreed with much of you reasoning, but came to similar conclusions anyway, although I didn't find him as scummy earlier, more suspiciously neutral, but I've been finding him scummier from his posts in these past few days and how he's been casting his votes in ways that strike me as designed to manipulate town with no reasoning that can possibly be picked apart or discussed.
Much of this is probably because I have a bit of trouble seeing voting Ash and talking theory as scummy for some reason ;D
But seriously, he was basically sheeping through a lot of the earlier stuff, and then kept pushing it in a way that, I think you're right, could very well be scum attempting a mislynch.
I think there were plenty of good reasons to suspect and vote Ash, but at that time chairs wasn't pushing any of these reasons, just sort of voting and agreeing.
Did you respond and I missed it or did you just silently disagree in your head and expect my ESP to reach that far?
-
uhm, because volt is actually one of the townier players around?
I believe strongly that you are incorrect.
-
The Voltaire case seems extremely flimsy for being the wagon with the most votes.
It's a great day1 case. People need to stop getting so uptight about day1 cases not being full of 10+ solid, irrefutable points. IT'S DAY1!!
Please explain to me how the chairs case is much less flimsy than Volt's.
I'll try to work up a big detailed post on both of these later (unless that will just annoy everyone) but basically that the Volt case is that he premptively defended himself, TA (reasonably) called him out on this, and then a bunch of people piled on without giving any more thought or reasons. The fact that I've at various times asked questions and posted that I found Robz scummy for his Volt vote, found Mcmcsalot scummy for his Volt vote, and found chairs scummy for his Volt vote should pretty much explain it I think. Most of the votes on him seem so poorly reasoned as to be scummy. (Aside from TA, who did a brief vote for pressure and is not part of the current wagon.)
-
Did you respond and I missed it or did you just silently disagree in your head and expect my ESP to reach that far?
No, I silently disagreed, because, as I said, I came to a similar conclusion and it seems silly to argue with you for coming to the same conclusion via different logic when there are so many people I actually disagree with.
-
Vote: chairs
-
Please do complete this writeup of both cases. Also, please include my points on Voltaire, you seem to be missing those parts of his scumminess. I am NOT voting for him over the pre-emptive defense, and I want to see how people deal with my reasons.
Also, this post of yours only serves to discredit the Volt wagon. Please explain as well how the chairs case is stronger than the volt case. The scumminess of the votes is one angle, but I would really like you to look at the 'strength of the evidence' angle (divorced from the people who agreed with it). That is the angle that your first post took, saying that the case on Volt was flimsy...not that the votes on Volt were suspicious.
-
(so far, nobody has bothered to quote any of my reasons on Volt it seems; they just ignore me entirely, dismiss me as 'feeling off', or dismiss me as 'being unclear')
-
Shraeye, to be fair, you didn't answer me when I asked a recap of the Voltaire case either.
It's funny, I feel pretty much all my townreads are on chairs now and all the scummy people are voting for Voltaire. Rarely have I felt this strongly about one candidate over another at the end of day 1.
-
Vote Count 1.14
As Miss Scarlett went down the stairs the three other guests again began searching the bedrooms of the mansion.
As Professor Plum went into the darkest bedroom he searched for a light switch. He couldn't find one. "I can't find a light switch!" he shouted.
"Neither can I!" came a response. He thought it was from The Cop, but this old mansion muffled voices.
Resigned to the darkness, Professor Plum began to stumble through the bedroom. Suddenly something was at his feet causing him to stumble to the floor. His pipe and matches fell out of his pocket. "Ah! I forgot I had matches," he said.
Professor Plum struck a match lighting up the room. At his feet was a candlestick. On the candlestick there was blood. Next to the bloody candlestick there was a pool of blood. Next to the pool of blood was a body. The name of the body was.... yuma.
ashersky (1): TA
Voltaire (4): Robz, shraeye, chairs, mcmcsalot
chairs (5): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (2) liopoil, Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Sorry, that should be 1.14
-
Ok, Eevee. Here is the exact same summary quote that I made last time somebody asked "what is your case again"...and still the only response I've gotten is Volt's offer to "answer my question" (There is no question that I'm asking him to answer, there is an accusation of scumminess, which has gone unnoticed)
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
This is an absurdly scummy vote. It justifies his vote entirely and possibly too much "this is policy", "I've gotten enough reads today", "hence, my comfort in casting this vote". Yet his stated reason for doing this is that Voltaire "cannot see how ash is possibly helping town". This basically is just a weak echo of what Umbrage has been loudly saying. (backed up by other folks, names I'm not recalling right now).
Hey look, I found it for you guys. Here is a major reason that I'm voting for Voltaire, and nobody has responded to this at all. Cool.
Also, there is the bit where I voted as well.
See, the problem is that you aren't even answering the question ashersky is asking. You're just jumping up at the opportunity to triple-validate your vote on him and also encourage others to see ashersky as scummy.
In response, Voltaire says that instead of blaming ashersky for the thread stopping, he should have blamed me. Brace yourself for a barrage of "you're misrepresenting me!" posts from Voltaire, but please also do me the favor of rereading mine and Volt's previous exchange. We had some misunderstanding there, but Volt leaves main points unanswered while attacking the minor details (like where I didn't see he had answered a question; the missing-answer to that question wasn't really the main point of any of my scumread)
-
Yyeah, sometimes you feel like voting, realize people don't like votes for no reasons, so you try to write up an explanation of these feelings, and it doesn't quite work out.
I agree that's not an elegant way to explain the desire to vote ashersky, but man.. were you reading the game at the time, can you really blame him for wanting to vote ash?
Not enough to sway me from my town read. I see the case against Volt as convincing enough for some townies to believe in and for scum to believably join.
I both think that individually chairs is a lot scummier than Voltaire and that I'd rather side with the people voting chairs than I would with the people voting Voltaire.
-
shraeye, can you tell me why I'm wrong? I can't see a ton of difference in our cases. Like, they're both D1 cases, neither is stronger than the other.
-
Anybody want to do a post count?
-
I prefer the case on Chairs over the case on Voltaire, which is why I'm there. People are finding him scummy for defending himself as town, which I don't think is scummy at all. You don't want to be mislynched as town.
I see what Shraeye's saying about Volt's policy vote being scummy, and it is a little. But it came at a time when Volt was very frustrated with Ash, so I can see where that came from.
Additionally, the players on the Voltaire wagon (Mcmc, Chairs, Shraeye, Robz) contains more players I have scumreads on than the Chairs wagon, which makes me more comfortable with the Chairs lynch.
Chairs, on the other hand, has twice voted for players on wagons for what I think were bad reasons. I think his reasoning for his Ashersky vote was bad, and his reasoning for his Voltaire vote was bad. But neither was a frustration vote, like Voltaire's seemed to be... he either thought they were good votes as town, or was trying to get something started (continued?) as scum. I think there's a pretty decent chance it was the second.
-
I don't think Volt has defended himself in a scummy way (although it is possible he has defended himself in the manner that he would, if he were scum--there's a difference there!).
I've actually cooled toward his lynch, merely because there are several other players who I suspect are actually hardcore lurking.
-
I don't think Volt has defended himself in a scummy way (although it is possible he has defended himself in the manner that he would, if he were scum--there's a difference there!).
I've actually cooled toward his lynch, merely because there are several other players who I suspect are actually hardcore lurking.
And going after lurkers is the only policy with a remotely positive record of finding scum.
-
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
-
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
Then what do you make of the fact that ash is pushing mcmc?
-
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
[snip]
If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
What's the town case on chairs? I haven't seen anyone but chairs put it forward.
-
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
I'm still feeling Volt, but I could get behind Ash instead if there's no chance of a Volt lynch.
If I get lynched today, I say pay attention to who was most eager to sheep their way onto the table.
-
If I get lynched today, I say pay attention to who was most eager to sheep their way onto the table.
No-one, so far. It's why I feel extra-good about your lynch.
-
If I get lynched today, I say pay attention to who was most eager to sheep their way onto the table.
No-one, so far. It's why I feel extra-good about your lynch.
So you're saying out of the 5 people that are on the wagon, they all had excellent reasons and nobody was lazy about hopping on it even a little bit? ???
That said, perhaps TA is right and I'm tunneling. It seems pretty clear that you're not going to be lynched today anyway, so I'll go ahead and Unvote while I think about who else might be viable. Ashersky isn't (we've already proven that) so v0v.
-
A History of the Case on Voltaire, and Why I Don't Like It
NOTE: THIS POST IS SUPER LONG. I REREAD EVERYTHING ABOUT VOLT TODAY. READ THE WHOLE THING FOR A QUICK REREAD (I quoted nearly everything), FOR MY MORE INTERESTING OPINIONS (and subheadings), SKIM FOR THINGS IN BOLD. Also, just look for whatever part of this you want to discuss.
In summary, my main problem is that there doesn't seem to be much of a case. Only Twistedarcher and Shraeye seemed to have put any thought into this. If Twistedarcher had voted Voltaire, then switched to Ashersky, and Shraeye voted Voltaire based on the policy-vote, we wouldn't have one of the two most viable wagons for the day, we'd have Shraeye finding a policy vote scummy (fair enough).
I also think Shraeye has a bit of an anger-fueled confirmation bias going here, mainly from the whole fiasco about "You never answered Ash's question" "Yes I did" "No you didn't!" This does NOT invalidate Shraeye's vote-based reasoning, although I disagree with that too, as I explain below.
I believe that Voltaire's policy vote came of frustration/anger as he explained, (I can certainly understand being frustrated and angry and snapping at Ashersky at that point in the game). I can also understand Shraeye not believing this. But the fact that only one player on a wagon seems to have a sincere reason, and I disagree with that player's reasoning, well it goes beyond me not wanting to be on the wagon, it makes me raise an eyebrow at the wagon itself.
I've already said I think TA and Shraeye were sincere and reasonable (although I don't agree with either of their reasons for their votes), so let's look at the history of this wagon and the case on Voltaire, such as it is. I'm hoping this will allow everyone to look at the case without having to filter through all the "impossible to reread" material.
TA's original case.
Here are Voltaire's two posts that started it all:
Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?
Basically, I see Snow's plan as a way to maximize the utility of the hider, and it was his first post. I don't see scum coming out of the gate firing with a plan to help maximize a town PR. It's one of my first reads so it's not strong, but it's there. For sure.
And shraeye, looks like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed! :o Steer us in the direction you want, then.
Before anyone calls me out on this, I've realized this is wrong - TA proposed it, Snow perfected it. I do stand by the Snow read though, just don't want scum tunneling me on misremembering something.
Town PRs are Town PRs. They make decisions based on their own scum reads. If we never scumhunt and just waste a day on all this theory, they have nothing to go on. I really really really don't see this as a compelling case at this stage of the game.
I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway. It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer. Like a weakened commuter.
But the odds are so high they'll die!
And who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions.
People want votes, though? That's fair. They're helpful. Voting for my one tiny scumread so far:
Vote: Jimmmmm
To which TA replied
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
Vote: Voltaire
and Voltaire replied
Eh, I know mafia does that sort of thing and I wanted to squash it before it got brought up (as those sorts of things tend to be the way mafia makes fake cases).
And honestly? The vote was an attempt to get rid of the "this game already sucks" tone that I've been clearly getting by some of those arriving later to the party (thread).
Now this seemed a bit like TA was reaching to me, I don't find it convincing at all, but I don't have a problem with TA pointing this out at that early stage of the game. It seems like town searching for weak scumtells.
Robz jumps on
Here's what I had a problem with:TA's case on Volt is good. Best think we have going for us so far. Stop voting for ash please. I doubt this is scum ash. (...very next post...) vote: voltaire
At this point, Robz had already voted for Jimmmmm (based on the flavor-claim speculation in his first post, and his RVS vote on me), I was pushing Ash pretty hard (and so was Ash), and Shraeye was pushing Liopoil for no reason. So I guess I can actualy believe Robz thought this was the best case we had so far, AT THAT POINT, although at the time I was surprised by his defending Ash and said: On the one hand, this does feel towny to me on a kind of surface level, but on the other, calling that a "case" feels like overselling it quite a bit.
Mcmcsalot can't be bothered to explain himself
Mcmcsalot then jumps on as the 3rd member of the Voltaire bandwagon with nkirbit/liopoil/xxxxx is the scumteam!
Add volt and I'm down!
To which Shraeye replied:
Why Volt? I haven't noticed anything bothersome from him yet.
After a day passed, Shraeye added (at the end of an otherwise unrelated post to Mcmcsalot) "ALSO ADDITIONALLY, answer my freakin' question".
The next we hear about Voltaire is many posts later, from Robz: I continue to find Voltaire manifestly the scummiest player.
To which I replied: Why?
...
At this point you think he's manifestly the scummiest player based on TA's reasoning alone? That seems like an awfully strong escalation of a pretty slim "case" which hasn't been expanded on at all.
and later I hesitate to think of this as scummy, because Mcmcsalot and Robz, if attempting to create a Voltaire wagon out of thin air would be doing the most half-assed job ever, but I'm very curious why either of them are so enthusiastic about this? Are we all missing something they haven't pointed out? Either way, I'm leery of things being repeated a lot without justification: seems a good way to make something seem true if we don't look too closely, whether that's deliberate or not.
I note at this point in the thread, Chairs finds Robz scummy and Voltaire Towny, the opposite of his later voting of Voltaire for finding Robz scummy. Of course, if Chairs could explain his votes, maybe there could be some reason for this? I really don't believe there is.: I finally decided to go whole hog instead of simple gut reactions. Welcome to a chairs Full Read session, where you have Town(+) and Mafia(-) points and everything (oh, and this isn't even everybody - I just have to do more work at work):
Voltaire - +5/-0
1. Tracker > vig, and explains why. (+)
2. Provided clarification on odds for N1 PR results. (+)
3. Supports a hider plan, given that we come up with a mechanism that minimizes risk of scum identifying the hider. (+)
4. Thinks the theory talk was helpful (which I agree with). (+)
5. Posts fairly solid reread of thread (even though he's wrong about me). (+)
Robz - +1/-6
...
I'll stick to my numbers and Vote: Robz
Twistedarcher - +7/-1
4. Votes for Volt arguing he's being a little too crowd-pleasing. (Null)"
The Policy Vote
Now we come to the other source of suspicion toward Voltaire:
Vote: ashersky
Policy vote.
We cannot encourage intentional anti-town play. We cannot allow self-voting. That's not fun, and it does not help town win (by definition). UoS has a very good post summarizing why ash may also, in fact, be scum. Hence, my comfort in casting this vote, though it is mostly based on the fact that town does not benefit long-term by this sort of nonsense.
I've gotten enough reads out of today that I think town doesn't lose too much in this specific game, and I'm comfortable with the long-term gain.
Ash, I asked you to start playing how you'd like us to play. You didn't change your style. I cannot see how you are possibly helping town in this game if you are town.
Ashersky incorrectly paints this as putting him at L-1 (http://Ashersky incorrectly paints this as putting him at L-1) without announcing it, saying Voltaire is scummy, and later retracts this accusation (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268943#msg268943) when it becomes clear that he wasn't at L-1.
TA asks Voltaire, why are you policy voting now rather than 5 pages ago?
Voltaire then explains his policy vote and frustration with Ash. (underline mine)This game just screeched to a halt. What happened?
You. You took us away from the useful scumhunting we were doing, when it seemed like your willingness to self-vote had gone away. UoS came back with a reads-based case on you, and your insanity continued. Then I snapped, because I am a human being, and I policy voted you. That answered your other questions.
You are the only one claiming to be some sort of mafia god. None of us are. Yet you are yelling at us for claiming to be mafia gods.
Actual scumread there for finding people scummy for things you yourself are doing.
Nearly 100 posts later, Robz finally responds to why he thinks Voltaire is scummy (he responds to Ash badgering him about it, rather than me, I'm suspicious that he felt he could ignore one player but not two.)Care to elaborate on Volt now?
Yep yep yep, sure.
I see Volt being very, very cautious. Highly reactive. And over explaining himself with the phrasing "Because I know this might look suspicious, let me head you off and explain why it is not." TA caught him doing that, and I saw several subsequent posts where he does it.
It's a scumtell* I like to look out for.
*May not actually be a scumtell, I really suck at this.
And Mcmcsalot finally chimes in as well
Grr, I went to answer the question I why I think volt is scummy, if you want me to present a case it's going to have to wait, and sadly it will be a summary of other people's reason for finding him scummy that I agree with. Call it sheepy if you want, it's something I do now that I lurk so much, I look for other people's arguments I agree or disagree with, it's not as good as coming up with my own arguments though to be honest I have had a much better track Record finding scum this way than when I made my own arguments and was just wrong.
So to answer, what robz and TA said...
I find it interesting that neither Robz nor Mcmcsalot mention the policy vote here, only the two posts Twistedarcher pointed out. (I still don't think the second post would have been even remotely interesting if it hadn't immediately followed the first. It reads to me like they aren't trying to evaluate other players' arguments, just repeating what they already decided their positions were. This makes them both look scummy to me.
Shraeye then chimes in on the policy vote, and my guess as to why this has recieved little attention is because it (at first) feels a lot like what TA and Volt discussed above. On closer read, Shraeye is making a different point, that the justification of the vote is scummy rather than the timing, but I know when I first read it, I wasn't looking at it that way, perhaps this is why it hasn't been talked about much.
This is an absurdly scummy vote. It justifies his vote entirely and possibly too much "this is policy", "I've gotten enough reads today", "hence, my comfort in casting this vote". Yet his stated reason for doing this is that Voltaire "cannot see how ash is possibly helping town". This basically is just a weak echo of what Umbrage has been loudly saying. (backed up by other folks, names I'm not recalling right now).
Voltaire gets snippy with Shraeye (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269181#msg269181) for complaining about too many posts. Shraeye votes for Volt (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269182#msg269182) in a post about the long misunderstanding about where Volt answered Ash's question (not requoting all of this for some attempt at readability). They also get in an argument about whether or not Ash killed the thread.
I would note that this was one of many times I was annoyed with Shraeye's complaining and given the mood of the thread at the time, I don't find it particularly weird to get snappy about this. I think there could be some anger/hurt feeling affecting things around this point in the thread, particularly with tensions as high as they were following the biggest string of people being annoyed with Ashersky. I suspect that Shraeye took this as deliberate misrepresentation when it seems likely to have been annoyance. The whole game around this point... I know I took some time away from the thread to avoid throwing around too many 4-letter words, so I think both reactions are understandable, but I don't think that they make either Shraeye or Voltaire scummy here. I know I've felt like posting and putting in effort have been discouraged at several points in this game, and it's made me feel self-conscious about how much I post.
Raerae puts one foot on the wagon here with I don't even know where to go with this goofy thread now so I'm posting thoughts as they pop up. Warning: This is a messy, jump around post....
4. Volt is a little bit scummy to me but I honestly can't say why, just a gut feeling.
Mcmcsalot soon provides his (never to be explained) reads
Town reads on:
Shraeye
Liopoil
Umbrage
Robz
Ashersky
Twisted
Scummy reads due to not what I expect from them:
Raerae
Eevee
Jimm?
Scum reads based in scummy behavior
Voltaire
Nk
Chairs?
? Players I added in after needing to the op so they are weak reads.
Explainations later sorry
Ash chimes in, both agreeing with and suspecting scum on the Voltaire wagon: 4. I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling. Scum in there?
He misses Mcmcsalot though. I wonder if this will mean anything, towny or scummy, once we know a flip or two from someone in this group.
Ash gives, in my opinion, too much credit to Robz for his scumhunting in this explaination of scumhunting to Chairs....I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions. If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia. The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.
Chairs, welcome to mafia.
/joking
Okay, I can see your frustration there. It is part of the game. People are going to call you out on your reads for a number of reasons: maybe they are scum trying to mess with you; maybe you read someone who's town as scummy and they are upset about it; maybe they have an abrasive playstyle. Just gotta roll with it.
Scum hunting takes many forms. To me, I think the definition for these games is to seek out "behavior" that you would expect from scum and pointing it out. So not "reads" so much as "observations."
Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play. If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out...
I don't find this scummy, but it's a mistake that I think makes the case seem stronger (in that moment of reading the thread) than it is, because Robz didn't really point anything out, he just quoted TA and said that there were more examples of it, which he never bothered to point out.
Shraeye then semi-agrees with Ash that there is probably scum in the Voltaire wagon, again forgetting mcmcsalot and putting Voltaire on the list, saying that there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae and volt, which is a much weaker way of agreeing. This bugs me, it might be scummy or it might just be over-confidence. Or maybe just extreme aggression in how sure Shraeye is that Volt is scum. But I didn't like this post much.Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both. I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.
Ash then says (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269388#msg269388) that if Volt is scum, he thinks Robz is his best guess at who is bussing.
Robz then gives himself credit for being the first to seriously push the Voltaire wagon. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269392#msg269392) I'm not sure what to think of that, Robz has never said anything other than agreeing with Twistedarcher about the Voltaire wagon, other than his post basically restating that and alluding to evidence he never shows. It could be that Robz is taking credit for getting more people on-board, which I could see, but he mostly did that through repitition. My theory is that Robz takes credit here because he's been thinking a lot about pushing the Volt wagon as a good mislynch, and people are conforming to his plan. TA started the only case Robz has used (still no comment on Shraeye's post) and TA got off this wagon quite a while back.
Ash semi-calls him out on taknig credit as a means of not being the scum on the wagon, although not noticing that it was TA's case originally, and taking a different tack than I just did You were the first to bring it up. How many times did you get asked to present the case? You were giving feel-based hints. Scum could give a feel-based scum read on a partner with no real backing, and if it goes through, they look awesome for picking up on something.
I'm not saying you are scum, or did that. But it's possible, and I can see you doing it.
TA comes back in with a mention that he still finds Volt scummy, this time repeating the crowd-pleasing language Besides Ashersky, Volt seems a little too "crowd-pleasing" to me, Shraeye seems off, and I don't get why everyone was against Liopoil, I didn't notice anything there. But no one is as close to a scum-read as Ashersky is for me.
TA doesn't really argue a case against Volt or put his vote there. This reads to me like Town TA that has not been disuaded from his early read, but has stronger cases he wants to pursue. Fair enough.
Volt defends himself to TA If I've been "agreeable", it's likely because I didn't like the turn the tone of the game was taking and wanted to get it back on track. If that's seen as scummy, so be it - it's made the game more fun for me.
I see things have slowed down. Perhaps we do need a soft deadline to get things moving again. I'm fine with Thursday. It'd be great if those not voting would vote so we can see where we all stand.
Ash comments on which lynches seem viable to him I think the Volt and Robz lynches seem to have the most viability.
I prefer a mcmc or TA lynch.
I'm worried we'll end up with a so-so lynch for info instead of possibility of being mafia.
Volt then votes Robz and explain his vote, rather than just quoting my case on Robz. Mcmcsalot thinks voting for weak reasons and "making a pretty case" are scummy. (Care to self-vote, Mcmcsalot?)
So instead I started looking at my next read, Robz. Here's what Robz has done in this game:
- opposed theory talk
- advocated for town!ash
- sheeped me about Jimmmmm
- sheeped TA about Voltaire (me)
- said I am "manifestly the scummiest," latter elaborates it is because I am cautious/reactive
- says mcmc is real-life busy
- says chairs reacts scummily to pressure, does not vote chairs
- says Snow's case on him is good
- weird thing with TA (scum-phraseology)
This case, and Snow's, aren't the greatest things in the world, but I'm comfortable with a vote: Robz because in addition to the slight scumminess, he really hasn't been helping out town.
I'd like to have a stronger/read vote, but this is where we are.
Okay here's the issue with your case
- 3 other people did this
- again others did this, and disagreeing with you does not equal scum
- I sheeped you both
- again I sheeped you both and by sheep I mean agree...
- doesn't make him scummy
- I am, defending a town read is a better way to help town then pushing a scum era when your scum reads are generally poor but you can rely on one or two town reads
Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
I also find Mcmcsalot's defense of Robz as all these points being personal disagreements between Volt and Robz and "other people did this too" to be a weak defense, which is fine, except he treats it like that invalidates everything scummy about Robz.
Voltaire continues to be a bit sarcastic, and points out (not as clearly as he probably should have) that voting for your top scum reads is good town behavior Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
Chairs then votes Voltaire for more reasons never to be explained Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
Voltaire gets more frustrated at these gut-based, impossible-to-argue-with votes Well this is certainly frustrating. Whenever there's a case out there for me to respond to I'll give it my best. What I'll say right now is that I'm an active town member trying to scumhunt and getting voted for it.
Mcmcsalot then votes for him with this post We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk. I so I have been watching what those three have been doing. I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
vote: Voltaire
Volt replies No, what I care is that the only thing you seem to be doing is voting someone who made a case. I'm not upset because we're approaching deadline "without a good wagon on a townie," I'm upset because we're approaching deadline without any wagon! We all agree D1 no-lynch is a bad idea. And the more wagons we build, the more information we get. And we increase the chances that our final wagon will be on scum.
I'm at L-3 now. TA has voted for me in the past, so it'll be interesting to see if he comes back now that I have more votes. Raerae has set themself up nicely (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269497#msg269497) to vote me. Ash states I'm a bit scummy (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269374#msg269374) and later calls my wagon viable.
Maybe chairs really is scum?
I argue that this is a bad reason for voting, Mcmcsalot never responds Haven't read enough about the end stuff but man that's a weak case based in disagreements you have with robz.i mean really weak vote this late seems strange to me, simply because you made such a pretty case that inflated your reasoning.
What would you rather I do? Not vote and have us no-lynch? I'm trying to play/scumhunt, you appear to be hanging back on purpose.
We are not an hour from deadline, no reason to be in scramble mode, protecting my town reads is a perfectly good thing to be doing.
This doesn't really read like "scramble mode" to me. It seems like exactly what all of us are/should be doing. Isn't the big reason behind lurkers being anti-town that we need people to go out and look for scum, and that putting down votes and reads gives us something to analyze, both now and tomorrow when we can look at who was on or off what wagon?
I'm all for defending your town reads, that is perfectly towny, but voting for someone for voting your townread is much less so.
I think there is scum in the group of volt, chairs, nk.
Why? What do this group have in common other than all being people that others have mentioned as potential lynch candidates? To be fair, I have scumreads on chairs and nkirbit, so I wouldn't bet against you here, but where did this group come from?
I think you just made a decent slip. You are worried we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on a townie, robz is an easy target as there was some suspicion on him so you make a weak but pretty case, when I point out flaws in your case rather than defending it you take the stance "well I'm just worried about town and trying to scumhunt" you seem to care less that the case is bad and more that I find you scummy.
Alternatively, being worried that we are approaching deadline without a good wagon on someone you have a scumread on is a perfectly valid thing to worry about for town! This is the kind of logic that makes equal sense if you assume he is scum or town, because you see him as scum, you're interpreting it as scum evidence.
I don't know that Robz is an easy target either. Obviously, I'm the person that thinks he is the best target, but what makes him easier? That he's been acting suspicious?
WHY DO WE KEEP DISMISSING POSTS FOR BEING "PRETTY"?! This is bad logic, and a bad attack. Scum wants things to be persuasive, town wants things to be persuasive. People are occasionally more persuaded by a good layout, and it's certainly easier to read. That does not make a good layout either towny or scummy!
And finally, you should really notice that he was quoting and responding to Chairs immediately voting for him for making a case, not Mcmcsalot for defending Robz.
I find Mcmcsalot much scummier for this exchange. I find Chairs somewhat scummier. I'm pretty null on Voltaire. He could be scum, could be town.
(Mafia is hard! Everyone acts so suspiciously!)
Shraeye thinks nkirbit is scummy because nkirbit voted chairs for his scummy vote on Voltaire.Vote: Voltaire
I'll reread tonight to see if I can point out why the gut alarm went off.
This is the second time that we've seen Chairs hop on a wagon without a good reason to do so. I was unconvinced by his reasoning for voting Ashersky, and here we don't even have an explanation, just a "gut feeling".
Vote: Chairs
Ch-ch-ch-chainsaaawwww!
But seriously, my scumreads are nkirbit and Voltaire.
Liopoil thinks Voltaire (and others) are "maybe scumreads". No further detail.maybe scumreads, but I would need to actually read their posts again: nkirbit, voltaire, robz, raerae, mcmcsalot.
So yeah, pretty weak. Probably won't have a ton of time to catch up tommorow or the weekend though, but I'll do what I can.
And then we're up to the present, with a bit of arguement about these very things, quoting various posts I quoted above. I'm hoping this post makes it easier to refer back to the case against Voltaire overall. I find the case to be extremely weak, and most of the votes on it to be very scummy. Lots of voting and refusing to explain reads and votes.
Twistedarcher votes Voltaire
Robz votes Voltaire,
shraeye votes Voltaire
chairs votes Voltaire
mcmcsalot votes Voltaire
-
Let's talk about Robz taking credit for the case on Voltaire, when the only evidence he's ever presented was TA's comment on the two defensive posts.
Also: Ooops, forgot to delete the list of votes from the bottom, sorry.
-
Let's talk about Robz taking credit for the case on Voltaire, when the only evidence he's ever presented was TA's comment on the two defensive posts.
Also: Ooops, forgot to delete the list of votes from the bottom, sorry.
I did not mean to take credit for the case. It was TA's case originally; I continued it later. I was responding to ash's point that I was bussing Volt, which was a ludicrous suggestion, because it would be very, very weird for someone to vote for my partner and me to respond by also voting my partner and upping the ante, since losing your partner Day 1 is absolutely the worst thing that can happen.
-
I did not mention the policy vote, though the policy vote was very scummy indeed, yes.
-
I did not mention the policy vote, though the policy vote was very scummy indeed, yes.
You've had a long time to suggest someone other than myself/chairs, now that you think I'm probably town. Yet you have not. Care to?
And what do you think about chairs?
-
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
I recall you saying something very similar re: a recent AHoppy lynch. Tell me why I should believe you here and why I shouldn't think you're scum trying to gain towncred by planting something to point to post-flip? Why don't you also tell us why both lynches are bad? Or why mcmc is the best (after ash)? Or do anything other than just halfheartedly suggest a different lynch this close to deadline. (Yes, I know we're a few days out but if you really want to change the course of action you need to work.)
-
I'm more thinking of it in terms of scumRobz might be thinking of getting a good Voltaire wagon going as an accomplishment. That would be his accomplishment, regardless of TA.
Yes, I think it's silly that Robz being second on the wagon and repeating it over and over would make him a good scumpartner for Voltaire. I think it's more likely Robz is scum and Voltaire is town, is what I'm getting at.
Robz then gives himself credit for being the first to seriously push the Voltaire wagon. (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg269392#msg269392) I'm not sure what to think of that, Robz has never said anything other than agreeing with Twistedarcher about the Voltaire wagon, other than his post basically restating that and alluding to evidence he never shows. It could be that Robz is taking credit for getting more people on-board, which I could see, but he mostly did that through repitition. My theory is that Robz takes credit here because he's been thinking a lot about pushing the Volt wagon as a good mislynch, and people are conforming to his plan. TA started the only case Robz has used (still no comment on Shraeye's post) and TA got off this wagon quite a while back.
-
Cool; I like that summary,, and will read it in depth later.
I'm still liking Voltaire as scum. Another thing I noticed is that Twistedarcher was the first to bring up Voltaire stuff, but he isn't currently on Voltaire, he abandoned that for ash when the Volt stuff started getting serious (maybe my timeline is jacked up, but this is what I remember).
Additionally he has been one of the players who has said without good explanation that I felt 'off'.
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
I don't recall Twisted using meta-type stuff like this (so it's more suspicious than, say, when Eevee calls me 'off'). I look at this as a way to discredit me (the player who is running with teh Volt-lynch) after Twisted realized that his "throw suspicion at partner" strategy might get his partner lynched.
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
-
Also, I would accuse Umbrage of being the biggest thread-blower-upper in this game (just in sheer terms of post-numbers). I think that if Twisted flips scum, then it Umbrage's scumminess goes up, as it is likely Twisted is trying to orchestrate the same thread-flooding that we pulled off in Innovation.
-
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
I recall you saying something very similar re: a recent AHoppy lynch. Tell me why I should believe you here and why I shouldn't think you're scum trying to gain towncred by planting something to point to post-flip? Why don't you also tell us why both lynches are bad? Or why mcmc is the best (after ash)? Or do anything other than just halfheartedly suggest a different lynch this close to deadline. (Yes, I know we're a few days out but if you really want to change the course of action you need to work.)
Practically quoting himself!
-
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
I want Innovation players to be verrrrrrrrrry careful about transferring their TA reads. The bold above reeks of confirmation bias to me. I have the advantage of knowing that I am town, so shraeye has at least one bad read.
Right after shraeye posts this, chairs jumps in. If chairs is scum, I see this as chairs trying to move the topic of conversation away from himself. The chairs wagon isn't taking off, and I take that as a good sign we've caught scum and his partners aren't ready to give up and bus D1 yet.
Lurkers, please take a look at Chairs! (and myself, if you haven't been around in awhile and haven't seen that wagon. We need you to help lynch today.
-
Also, I would accuse Umbrage of being the biggest thread-blower-upper in this game (just in sheer terms of post-numbers). I think that if Twisted flips scum, then it Umbrage's scumminess goes up, as it is likely Twisted is trying to orchestrate the same thread-flooding that we pulled off in Innovation.
I've been trying to keep things confined to large posts rather than 10 medium size ones, so after you read it once, if you don't care to refer back to it for some reason, you can skip to the end.
I've also been trying to post less since (you? raerae? Ash?) told me I posted too much. But I have a lot to say! And hey, I'm kind of making up for all the lurkers. I'll try to tone it down though. :-[
-
I've also been trying to post less since (you? raerae? Ash?) told me I posted too much. But I have a lot to say! And hey, I'm kind of making up for all the lurkers. I'll try to tone it down though. :-[
When you have something useful for town, say it. Anyone advocating otherwise is proposing something scummy (not saying they're scum). Scumhunting is how you play this game!
-
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
I want Innovation players to be verrrrrrrrrry careful about transferring their TA reads. The bold above reeks of confirmation bias to me. I have the advantage of knowing that I am town, so shraeye has at least one bad read.
Right after shraeye posts this, chairs jumps in. If chairs is scum, I see this as chairs trying to move the topic of conversation away from himself. The chairs wagon isn't taking off, and I take that as a good sign we've caught scum and his partners aren't ready to give up and bus D1 yet.
Lurkers, please take a look at Chairs! (and myself, if you haven't been around in awhile and haven't seen that wagon. We need you to help lynch today.
Are you prepared that when I flip town (when, not if) you are probably D2 lynch?
You're tunneling me hard, and calling me out for "turning conversation away from myself" when you've done the exact same thing earlier in this game. You're very hungry for this lynch, and I think town wouldn't be nearly as hungry for a lynch on D1 as you are right now. I unvoted because I was willing to admit I might be wrong, but the ferocity you've got for this lynch has me back to sure you must be a wolf amongst us poor sheep. Vote: Voltaire
-
Also, I find big index kind of things helpful. I make them in the text editor on my laptop as notes sometimes anyway, and I like having a bunch of links in one place, which I can only do with a forum post.
Is there a place where we can petition for drop-down spoilers rather than black-out spoilers? If I could do that, I could hide each subtopic behind a spoiler and make the posts much smaller on the page.
-
I did not mention the policy vote, though the policy vote was very scummy indeed, yes.
You've had a long time to suggest someone other than myself/chairs, now that you think I'm probably town. Yet you have not. Care to?
And what do you think about chairs?
I never said I think you are probably town. Never. I said I had cooled toward your lynch, that's all.
-
I did not mention the policy vote, though the policy vote was very scummy indeed, yes.
You've had a long time to suggest someone other than myself/chairs, now that you think I'm probably town. Yet you have not. Care to?
And what do you think about chairs?
I never said I think you are probably town. Never. I said I had cooled toward your lynch, that's all.
I stand corrected.
So still not willing to help out town by pushing for another lynch, or putting down an opinion about chairs. Noted.
Are you prepared that when I flip town (when, not if) you are probably D2 lynch?
You're tunneling me hard, and calling me out for "turning conversation away from myself" when you've done the exact same thing earlier in this game. You're very hungry for this lynch, and I think town wouldn't be nearly as hungry for a lynch on D1 as you are right now. I unvoted because I was willing to admit I might be wrong, but the ferocity you've got for this lynch has me back to sure you must be a wolf amongst us poor sheep. Vote: Voltaire
1. I would hope town would be smarter than that
2. If you're town, and you think town (me) is going to cause your lynch, you need to present to me a better case than the one I have on you. Not sheep shraeye's reconsideration of TA now that Inno has ended. If I have a bad case on you I want to be convinced not to lynch you but that's up to you at this point.
3. The bold is odd and reminds me of newscum play from another forum I've played on. I know that is a weak piece of evidence but I'm adding it to everything else I have.
-
Here's a question for you chairs:
Why did you go from finding Robz scummy and Voltaire towny to voting for Voltaire because you found his vote for Robz scummy?
I find this very suspicious, and if you're going to explain anything, this would be a good place to start.
-
Here's a question for you chairs:
Why did you go from finding Robz scummy and Voltaire towny to voting for Voltaire because you found his vote for Robz scummy?
I find this very suspicious, and if you're going to explain anything, this would be a good place to start.
Could you tell me, roughly, where I voted for Voltaire because of his Robz vote?
-
Well that's all I can assume, given that you voted for him pretty much immediately after his Robz vote, it was the last significant post he made.
You've refused to give any other explanation, what else am I to think?
Why the dodge?
-
The deadline is rapidly approaching and, more importantly, we are not agreeing on any sort of lynch.
I did a re-read of chairs prepared to make a nice pretty post about why we should lynch him, but he's not nearly as scummy on re-read. His defense lines up with his actions rather well and I see him as uncertain town. Which is frustrating, because there goes my top read.
So instead I started looking at my next read, Robz. Here's what Robz has done in this game:
- opposed theory talk
- advocated for town!ash
- sheeped me about Jimmmmm
- sheeped TA about Voltaire (me)
- said I am "manifestly the scummiest," latter elaborates it is because I am cautious/reactive
- says mcmc is real-life busy
- says chairs reacts scummily to pressure, does not vote chairs
- says Snow's case on him is good
- weird thing with TA (scum-phraseology)
This case, and Snow's, aren't the greatest things in the world, but I'm comfortable with a vote: Robz because in addition to the slight scumminess, he really hasn't been helping out town.
I'd like to have a stronger/read vote, but this is where we are.
Found the relevant post from Volt on this. It's not his vote of Robz that makes me itch, though. It's just an odd duck of a list to me to vote robz on. I feel like it's "excuse to sheep kthx" as he specifically follows up by mentioning your (Snow's) read of Robz.
I was voting Robz based on a read. I'm voting Volt based on feel. I'd -really- like to have both, especially since Innovation really confirmed my gut check for me (I ignored my gut to vote Ahoppy because the evidence said he was the best vote).
PPE:
Well that's all I can assume, given that you voted for him pretty much immediately after his Robz vote, it was the last significant post he made.
You've refused to give any other explanation, what else am I to think?
Why the dodge?
I wasn't dodging. We have a massive thread and I honestly wasn't sure where in the thread the post was - but I decided I wasn't getting anything done at work anyway so I put in the effort to find it.
-
okay, I'm caught up. And woah, I do not think that voltaire is a good lynch at all! chairs is the other guy with a bunch of votes, so I'll look at him again. I'm hesitant to try to get a different lynch through just because we don't have much time, but nkirbit and robz are other top candidates for me.
-
POST COUNT -- no pregame
ashersky - 107
UmbrageOfSnow - 103
Voltaire - 91
shraeye - 45
Robz - 40
raerae - 40
chairs - 40
Eevee - 37
twistedarcher - 36
Jimmmm - 27
nkirbit - 27
mcmcsalot - 22
liopoil - 17
-
Liopoil, why do you have fewer posts than every before in any game?
-
oh wow. hmmm, I knew I hadn't been contributing as much as I usually do, but I didn't think it was that bad! I haven't even been that much more busy than normal. I always have trouble getting into games on D1, but usually I have gotten past that by now. I'm surprised, quiteness is something I generally attribute to scum!liopoil.
-
maybe it has something to do with the theory talk? I didn't think it was a problem, but maybe it was. hmmm. speaking of theory talk.....
If I am the hider, then tonight I will take my flavor-name-number, and starting from (and including) that number on the player list, go down until I get to a player who isn't named liopoil, UoS, ashersky, voltaire, and isn't the D1 lynch, wrapping back up to the top if neccessary. I will hide behind that player.
now, back to getting a lynch through...
-
I really appreciate that this game has gotten going. That said, it's the weekend here, so family time! I'll try to read along and post, but you'll have me back Sunday night for sure.
-
oh, I chose those players because they are my top townreads by the way.
okay, I read some more and looked at the cases, and intent to vote for chairs, which I think puts him at L-1, but I want to be safe. I don't really have much to add though. I hate being a sheep like this, as I've been frustrated with people for it all the time when wagons build on me. But I really agree that he's using his being right about his gut read on robz before as an excuse to use gut reads here. Also, he's the alternative wagon to voltaire, who I have a townread on. And I'm not just saying that he's a better lynch, I actually think he's scummy because of it. that is, maybe his buddies are trying to save him by pushing the voltaire lynch, but that is a bit of a stretch.
I could go for a nkirbit or robz lynch too, if there is enough support for it.
At this point my reads are kinda in tiers, from scum to town:
1. chairs, robz, nkirbit
2. raerae, mcmcsalot
3. shraeye, twistedarcher, eevee, jimmmmm
4. ashersky, UoS, voltaire
-
okay, just checked, and chairs in indeed at L-2. Vote: Chairs. This is L-1. no hammering without intent and chance to claim, as usual. Also, chairs, I strongly recommend not claiming unless somebody states intent to hammer.
-
Voltaire, what is your feeling on the alignment of Twistedarcher?
-
shraeye, can you tell me why I'm wrong? I can't see a ton of difference in our cases. Like, they're both D1 cases, neither is stronger than the other.
shraeye, it appears you didn't see this!
-
Cool; I like that summary,, and will read it in depth later.
I'm still liking Voltaire as scum. Another thing I noticed is that Twistedarcher was the first to bring up Voltaire stuff, but he isn't currently on Voltaire, he abandoned that for ash when the Volt stuff started getting serious (maybe my timeline is jacked up, but this is what I remember).
Additionally he has been one of the players who has said without good explanation that I felt 'off'.
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
I don't recall Twisted using meta-type stuff like this (so it's more suspicious than, say, when Eevee calls me 'off'). I look at this as a way to discredit me (the player who is running with teh Volt-lynch) after Twisted realized that his "throw suspicion at partner" strategy might get his partner lynched.
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
I get that TA has a lower postcount here, but I disagree with you that that's necessarily scummy. I don't know the extent to which his talking Day1 in Innovation was natural as opposed to being forced, but it certainly was anti-town, and made re-reads impossible. I think it could just be TA being quieter because him being so loud in Innovation was anti-town, and he doesn't have a reason to be anti-town here.
What you're saying is possible, of course, but why do you think it's likelier than town!TA doing less of something that's anti-town?
-
Cool; I like that summary,, and will read it in depth later.
I'm still liking Voltaire as scum. Another thing I noticed is that Twistedarcher was the first to bring up Voltaire stuff, but he isn't currently on Voltaire, he abandoned that for ash when the Volt stuff started getting serious (maybe my timeline is jacked up, but this is what I remember).
Additionally he has been one of the players who has said without good explanation that I felt 'off'.
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
I don't recall Twisted using meta-type stuff like this (so it's more suspicious than, say, when Eevee calls me 'off'). I look at this as a way to discredit me (the player who is running with teh Volt-lynch) after Twisted realized that his "throw suspicion at partner" strategy might get his partner lynched.
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
In the same post, you're:
1) Looking for a similarity between this TA and scum!TA from another game, with the implication that you would find it scummy if you found it (Defending his partners as scum).
2) Pointing out a difference between this TA and scum!TA from another game, and finding him scummy for being different.
You're finding him scummy for being different in one aspect, and scummy for being the same in a different aspect! I don't see why this would be any different than finding him towny for being different one way, and towny for being the same in another way. Basically, I think you could spin his similarities and differences as either scummy or towny depending on what your goals were.
I just don't put much merit into your read on him. Can you give me a reason why his similarities or differences mean he's scummy that's more compelling than why they make him towny?
-
Vote Count 1.15
Professor Plum knelt by yuma's body. He yelled for help. Mrs. White came quickly to the door. By then Professor Plum had used his matches to light up the candle (despite it being a piece of evidence) so that they could clearly see the body.
"Now he looks like my fourth husband," she said. "What happened to him? Is he dead?"
"Let me check, I am a doctor after all," said Professor Plum.
He knelt over yuma's body and checked his pulse and his breath. He looked up at Mrs. White and pronounced that he was "Dead."
ashersky (1): TA
Voltaire (4): Robz, shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmm
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Stating intent to not hammer.
-
Voltaire, what is your feeling on the alignment of Twistedarcher?
I had a strong town read on him for almost the entire day. It's been dented somewhat by his "I don't like either lynch" post, which does feel like an attempt to be on the right side of a flip. (I do not put any stock in the recent inno-based arguments as stated previously) But a town player could also be in that situation, so it is not nearly enough to overwhelm my previous read.
lio's most recent post is soooooooooooooooo sheepy. Also, what is the case on nkirbit? Tons of people have mentioned finding him scummy but I don't see it.
-
Chairs feels like a convenience lynch. Don't like it.
-
Chairs feels like a convenience lynch. Don't like it.
Elaborate.
-
Stating totally cool with someone else stating intent to hammer.
Chairs should get a chance to claim if he wants to.
-
Chairs feels like a convenience lynch. Don't like it.
Elaborate.
Easy lynch for scum to push through to save a partner.
-
Chairs feels like a convenience lynch. Don't like it.
Well to a certain extent, it is convenient for consensus building. I've voted for my other two top picks (Robz and Mcmcsalot) and both have a few people supporting their lynchings, but don't seem to have enough, and people seemed hesitant to actually move their votes over. I know I moved my vote to Chairs because he was the 3rd it my top-tier of scumreads and right around when I started thinking about the deadline he started acting more scummy with the refusals to explain anything rather than just passively avoiding explaining anything.
I think he's the vote of least resistance, yes, but I think that's because a majority of people find him scummy. And because he's not really putting any energy into defending himself, just continuing to refuse to support the scumreads he's pushing with any kind of evidence.
Maybe his not bothering to defend himself makes him less scummy, but I don't really buy it. He is bothering to post, he just seems to not be refuting the claims at all. (Then again, I have this problem with Robz and Mcmcsalot too...)
Is acting indifferent and disinterested really the best way to avoid getting scumvotes in this community?
-
Although you may have something there, Ash. Hmmm.
Think we can get enough people on Robz or Mcmcsalot?
Because I'd really rather lynch Chairs than anyone but those two, and no offense, but you defending him doesn't necessarily make him any more towny in my eyes.
-
It's not his vote of Robz that makes me itch, though. It's just an odd duck of a list to me to vote robz on. I feel like it's "excuse to sheep kthx" as he specifically follows up by mentioning your (Snow's) read of Robz.
I was voting Robz based on a read. I'm voting Volt based on feel. I'd -really- like to have both, especially since Innovation really confirmed my gut check for me (I ignored my gut to vote Ahoppy because the evidence said he was the best vote).
See, he did take the time to respond to my question here (which I appreciate whether we lynch you or not, thanks chairs), but he doesn't really say anything. He doesn't like the list. He doesn't like sheeping. He has a feeling.
Let me just say that if we're voting on sheeping, he should have no problem lynching mcmcsalot or Robz by the way. Or plenty of other people.
There is enough sheeping in this game that we know for a fact that we have some town sheep! There are only 3 scum!
-
And honestly, providing a list of additional things that make you suspicious in addition to a case you agree with seems like it's not even really sheeping, by comparison.
It also seems better than voting without comment (until harassed for days) on a feeling, which we seem to have quite a bit of.
-
Although you may have something there, Ash. Hmmm.
Think we can get enough people on Robz or Mcmcsalot?
Because I'd really rather lynch Chairs than anyone but those two, and no offense, but you defending him doesn't necessarily make him any more towny in my eyes.
Not defending Chairs, just calling his lynch what it is, which is not the best.
You know I'm all for mcmc.
-
I know you are, and we agree there.
I'm wondering aloud if we can get 5 more?
-
Regarding an Mcmcsalot vote:
1. Ashersky is currently voting him.
2. Umbrageofsnow has voted for him and would happily do so again.
3. Twistedarcher said "I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think"
These seem like the definite votes. Then we have
4. Raerae "As I said, chairs is the other one I would vote for"
5. Voltaire "Chairs I find the most scummy... mcmc I also find scummy, but not as strongly.
6. Liopoil lists him in his second tier of scumminess, less so than Robz and chairs, but still scummy
Those are all the public statements I could find in recent days (might have missed something though)
7. ?
Eevee said he thought Mcmcsalot was "too easy", so I sort of doubt he'd be the 7th vote.
Although I don't know if we have a 7th vote for chairs either.
DOES ANYONE WANT TO VOTE FOR MCMCSALOT THAT I DIDN'T LIST?
WOULD ANYONE NOT ON THE CHAIRS WAGON PREFER THE MCMCSALOT WAGON?
I'm happy with either lynch. But it would be nice to get seven people together without anyone feeling like we're getting scum to push us into compromising for a likely town-lynch. Is that often possible? I'd like it to be, but I admit I don't know.
-
In the same post, you're:
1) Looking for a similarity between this TA and scum!TA from another game, with the implication that you would find it scummy if you found it (Defending his partners as scum).
2) Pointing out a difference between this TA and scum!TA from another game, and finding him scummy for being different.
Yes, my application of meta information isn't formulaic. I'm not going to say "he's doing same thing, that is scummy". I'm considering how hard/easy things are to fake. A very patent, and easily manipulable thing is post count. In Innovaiton, I encouraged Twisted to purposefully inflate his postcount, because I know that stuff hurts town. I could see him working hard to not appear to be trying the same thing.
But the trying to "distance" yourself from teammates, but accidentally defending them in some way (I see Twisted's views areound me/Volt as a possible way to discourage Volt-votes). That is a flaw in Twisted's scumgame, and given that we won in Innovation, it may not be apparent to him that it's a flaw. So I could very easily see Twitsed repeating that mistake if he drew scum again.
-
I want Innovation players to be verrrrrrrrrry careful about transferring their TA reads. The bold above reeks of confirmation bias to me. I have the advantage of knowing that I am town, so shraeye has at least one bad read.
See, this seems ridiculous. You are saying that because you know I am wrong about you, the entire subset of people in teh innovation game need to be super careful about using Innovation scumTwisted meta to analyze Twisted here.
Why does me being wrong affect how careful people need to be about reading Twisted???
Are you prepared that when I flip town (when, not if) you are probably D2 lynch?
You're tunneling me hard, and calling me out for "turning conversation away from myself" when you've done the exact same thing earlier in this game. You're very hungry for this lynch, and I think town wouldn't be nearly as hungry for a lynch on D1 as you are right now. I unvoted because I was willing to admit I might be wrong, but the ferocity you've got for this lynch has me back to sure you must be a wolf amongst us poor sheep. Vote: Voltaire
1. I would hope town would be smarter than that
2. If you're town, and you think town (me) is going to cause your lynch, you need to present to me a better case than the one I have on you. Not sheep shraeye's reconsideration of TA now that Inno has ended. If I have a bad case on you I want to be convinced not to lynch you but that's up to you at this point.
3. The bold is odd and reminds me of newscum play from another forum I've played on. I know that is a weak piece of evidence but I'm adding it to everything else I have.
Here too, Voltaire does something really scummy. He accuses chairs of sheeping my reconsideration of Twisted instead of presenting cases. How in the world does chairs voting for Voltaire mean that chairs is sheeping my TA read?? Chairs' explanation for his Volt-vote has NOTHING to do with Twitsed.
In this post, Voltaire is simply admitting that he and Twisted have a connection. Great. Two scum found.
-
Chairs is the weaker of my scum reads now so I'm by no means jumping for joy with this lynch.
-
In this post, Voltaire is simply admitting that he and Twisted have a connection. Great. Two scum found.
Ur tunneling is lolz.
I'm feeling better and better about a chairs lynch simply because it does not seem to be easy. We only have 6 people on him, and that's taken a bit. (The only votes I'd consider suspicious if chairs flips town right now are Eevee and lio, but I don't think that's going to happen)
-
In this post, Voltaire is simply admitting that he and Twisted have a connection. Great. Two scum found.
Ur tunneling is lolz.
In all seriousness, what I am doing is trying to protect one of my town reads (TA). Somebody else (forget who right now) also pointed out that you seem to have confirmation bias about him.
-
In this post, Voltaire is simply admitting that he and Twisted have a connection. Great. Two scum found.
Ur tunneling is lolz.
In all seriousness, what I am doing is trying to protect one of my town reads (TA). Somebody else (forget who right now) also pointed out that you seem to have confirmation bias about him.
I'm pretty sure you're the person who said that. Can't think of any other.
-
Oh goodness, I'm so lost in this game. Kind of surprised I haven't received more heat for lurking. Anyway. I re-read chairs, and I0 don't know. I didn't really see anything that made me think one way or another to be perfectly honest.
I still think ash has a greater than average likelihood of being scum, but not that much greater, and certainly lower than 50%.
So I re-read Volt as well, and I'm feeling a tad better about a Volt lynch than a chairs lynch.
First thing I noticed is his reaction to my very first post of the game. I hate talking about things like this because it's about something he said about me, and not even I can tell if I'm being biased, but anyway.
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
I'm more eyeing his flavor claim suggestion. Only possible way it's not scummy is if he himself was trying to bait people into agreeing with him.
Hey, volt, I'm on your reread now...can you explain the bolded part? I feel like that's pretty much the definition of scummy...
Flavor claim = bad
Town should know this
So suggesting flavor claim means either
A) scum move to try to trick town into doing a bad thing
B) town move to try to trick scum into trying to trick town into doing a bad thing
at which point in B) after someone agreed, the original poster (Jimmmm in this case) would go "Ah-hah!"
The town explanation is it's a trap. I believe we talked about these earlier.
So first of all, "flavour claim suggestion" is a misrepresentation of what I actually said, which was, "Any thoughts on name claiming?" That's not a suggestion, that's simply asking for opinions, and of course the main reason I said it was to get the game going and get people talking about something other than RVS. I also had no reason at the time to believe that it would necessarily be a bad thing - in ash's LotR game we race-claimed on day 1, and it turned out that Town should have paid very close attention to those claims. Of course, now I'm firmly against name-claiming since it's part of the whole Hider thing.
Anyway, I think I've given this particular thing more attention than it deserves, but I do feel like this could be trying to paint something as scummy which isn't.
Can everyone please vote for me and end this day? This is getting ridiculously anti-town to the worst degree I have ever seen in the history of f.ds mafia (well, since MX, when I first started playing).
Why am I not seeing the problem? Am I just being dumb? Like, I'm thinking this is a fine day 1 and I have no clue what you are talking about. This is so weird.
Me too! Some people started rather over-the-top protests against the theory talk, but other than that, things seem to be progressing quite reasonably. I'm trying to decide what it means that some people are trying to paint this day as terrible.
Something struck me as odd here about the "things seems to be progressing quite reasonably" part. Maybe it's just the way I heard it in my head, but he seems sort of, I don't know, aloof, like he's watching the progress from somewhere else and has a good idea of what he wants to see and would consider progress, which is kind of how I have felt as scum.
Because it's annoying as all get-out when I have one player (ash) going nuts in the thread, and another (you) discouraging posting. I'm going to play the game I want to play, where I scumhunt and post and talk to other players and try to be pro-town.
Something struck me about this post as well, and I think it's the part about trying to be pro-Town. Now admittedly he also mentioned scumhunting, but I think when I'm Town I don't worry too much about trying to be pro-Town, I worry about catching scum. Now obviously that involved doing "pro-Town" things like gleaning information and working towards a good, timely lynch. But when I'm scum, my entire game is about trying to be, or at least appear, pro-Town.
Anyway. Volt has struck me as a little overly-righteous-indignant at times and too loud about being pro-Town. Perhaps what I've said isn't a terribly good case, but I do feel better about supporting the Volt lynch than the chairs lynch, and with the deadline approaching, my vote is definitely better off on a lynch option than over in nowhere land. So Vote: Voltaire.
-
I'm pretty sure you're the person who said that. Can't think of any other.
You seem to miss things a lot!
In the same post, you're:
1) Looking for a similarity between this TA and scum!TA from another game, with the implication that you would find it scummy if you found it (Defending his partners as scum).
2) Pointing out a difference between this TA and scum!TA from another game, and finding him scummy for being different.
You're finding him scummy for being different in one aspect, and scummy for being the same in a different aspect! I don't see why this would be any different than finding him towny for being different one way, and towny for being the same in another way. Basically, I think you could spin his similarities and differences as either scummy or towny depending on what your goals were.
I just don't put much merit into your read on him. Can you give me a reason why his similarities or differences mean he's scummy that's more compelling than why they make him towny?
-
1. Note that I haven't tunneled you for that beginning of game thing - I just mentioned it, it went nowhere, I dropped it, you're a null read.
2. The rest of your case seems to be focused on the fact that I've stated I'm town trying to be pro-town, and then some gut read stuff. Obviously, one can not reason with a gut.
If you're town, I'm glad you re-read chairs, just disappointed you landed on me. I urge you to re-consider the fact that chairs has:
1. only really popped up in thread when he's been mentioned
2. jumped onto wagons in the traditionally scummy range (ie pushing them over the edge to viable)
3. failed to explain his reads
To me, this is a great case relative to the fact that it's D1. I hope it can be to you too.
-
I think lio is really scummy for how he slipped onto the chairs wagon now, although I will be much more comfortable asserting that if chairs does indeed flip town.
Vote: liopoil
-
I think lio is really scummy for how he slipped onto the chairs wagon now, although I will be much more comfortable asserting that if chairs does indeed flip town.
Vote: liopoil
If Voltaire is scum, so is Robz. Oddly pushing Voltaire all day, and then all of a sudden he's at L-2 and Robz finds a reason to bail? Scummy.
-
Vote Count 1.16
Col. Mustard, Mr. Boddy and The Mechanic supervised the carrying of yuma down the stairs. Mrs. White and Mrs. Peacock carried the front of yuma while Yvette the Maid and The Singing Telegram Girl carried his legs.
They carried yuma to the study where they promptly dropped him on the floor.
"Well, this certainly was unexpected!" said Wadsworth the Butler. "How did he die?"
"From what I was able to tell," Professor Plum began.
"How can you tell? Oh, are you a doctor?" asked Yvette the Maid.
"I am but I don't practice," he responded.
"Practice makes perfect," said Miss Scarlett. "Ha! I think most men need a little practice, don't you Mrs. Peacock?"
ashersky (1): TA
Voltaire (4): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm (L-3)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
lipoil (1): Robz
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Volt is at L-3.
-
Volt is at L-3.
Math is hard
-
1. Note that I haven't tunneled you for that beginning of game thing - I just mentioned it, it went nowhere, I dropped it, you're a null read.
That's kind of the point. I feel like scum sometimes mention things to see if others will go for it, and then drop them if they don't.
2. The rest of your case seems to be focused on the fact that I've stated I'm town trying to be pro-town, and then some gut read stuff. Obviously, one can not reason with a gut.
You're right. I don't have a particularly strong read on you, and if you're Town I'm sorry. I haven't really had time to give this game the focus it deserves, and really I felt like this close to deadline I needed to pick between you and chairs, and after re-reading both of you, that's just the way that I landed. I will happily hammer chairs if we get close enough to deadline to warrant it, just at this stage some of what you've said has struck me as a little odd, and I can't really say the same about chairs. When I get time, I will re-read chairs again, particularly if we lynch you and you flip Town.
-
I'm V/LA this weekend, which is unfortunate as we happpen to have a monday deadline, but I can probably check in once or twice tommorow.
-
Sorry I didn't post yesterday :-[
I'm just a poor little Vanilla Townie. Please don't lynch me!
-
I think lio is really scummy for how he slipped onto the chairs wagon now, although I will be much more comfortable asserting that if chairs does indeed flip town.
Vote: liopoil
If Voltaire is scum, so is Robz. Oddly pushing Voltaire all day, and then all of a sudden he's at L-2 and Robz finds a reason to bail? Scummy.
I disagree with this. If Robz is scum and Volt is scum, then Robz continues to bus away. It's Twisted's absence on the Volt wagon that is the most suspicious.
-
Okay, so I'm going to be on and off today (sadly I have non-computer things to do today) but I should be on from evening until midnight or 1 A.M. as before.
Deadline is 10 A.M. tomorrow. I know I am unlikely to be on before then, once I sign off for the night, and it seems that only 1 or 2 people ever log on during those hours as far as I've seen.
So it seems to me like we really need to decide on a lynch tonight.
1. It doesn't seem like the Chairs wagon is easily going through, does that make you any more comfortable with it, Ash/TA?
2. I posted a list a while back of people who had said they'd like an Mcmcsalot wagon (including both Ash and TA who aren't on the Chairs wagon.) I asked if there was anyone I missed or any of the Volt voters liked an Mcmcsalot wagon better than Chairs, because 6 people have publically stated that Mcmcsalot was one of their scummier reads, if neither Volt nor Chairs is going to happen, is that a good compromise? I've been liking the look of an Mcmcsalot lynch for quite a while.
3. Nkirbit, you haven't said anything about this, although you were early on the Chairs wagon, what do you think of Mcmcsalot?
4. Is there a 7th person that would be happy to hammer chairs?
-
Sorry I didn't post yesterday :-[
I'm just a poor little Vanilla Townie. Please don't lynch me!
1. How does this make people feel about him? I'm pretty much exactly where I was. At first I was thinking a Vanilla Townie claim wasn't a great way to get out of a lynch, and it isn't, but then scum knows that, and more importantly, we know what and how many powerroles there are, there is no powerrole you can claim in this game that can't be counterclaimed immediately, so it seems like that wouldn't save you either, and this is an equally logical gambit. (I'm not saying this is a bonus point against him, I'm saying this leaves me feeling he had the exact same probability of being scum as before.) Thoughts?
2. I've obviously never lynched Chairs before, does the "poor little Vanilla Townie" phrasing seem legit to you guys. This is one of the areas where I think meta arguments make sense.
3. No one has stated intent to hammer yet, although we are less than 24 hours from the deadline and he's at L-1, so I can see the logic if he's not going to be on much.
Conclusion: I still think he's got a better-than-50% chance of being scum and he's certainly been unhelpful. I think his chances of being scum are much better than anyone else I'd want to lynch other than Robz and Mcmcsalot. This claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be scum, but it doesn't make me think he's less likely to be scum either.
4. I like numbers today, apparently.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
-
Snow: I'm happy with my vote on chairs. I would vote mcmc if it was clear he was our only potential lynch, but that's true of every player in this game.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
Are you kidding me?
1. Townie
2. Null/suspicious
3. Null
4. Townie/suspicious
5. Suspicious/expect more
6. Null
7. Null
8. Suspicious/expect more
9. Null
10. Scum
11. Null
12. Townie
So you have one scum read and everyone else is null and you have a few slight town/suspicion.
-
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
I want Innovation players to be verrrrrrrrrry careful about transferring their TA reads. The bold above reeks of confirmation bias to me. I have the advantage of knowing that I am town, so shraeye has at least one bad read.
Right after shraeye posts this, chairs jumps in. If chairs is scum, I see this as chairs trying to move the topic of conversation away from himself. The chairs wagon isn't taking off, and I take that as a good sign we've caught scum and his partners aren't ready to give up and bus D1 yet.
Lurkers, please take a look at Chairs! (and myself, if you haven't been around in awhile and haven't seen that wagon. We need you to help lynch today.
Are you prepared that when I flip town (when, not if) you are probably D2 lynch?
This is another post by chairs that makes me uneasy. I can't imagine that I would ever try and get a player's vote off me as a town player by threatening them. I also disagree with Chair's point that Voltaire is the most suspicious player tomorrow if he flips town... I don't think I would find him scummy at all for it.
-
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
The first thing that stuck out at me were that you were calling people out for "editing" their posts, when they clearly weren't editing, they just made a typo. It's odd to accuse someone of editing a post when there's actual mistakes in it -- wouldn't it not have typos?
The finding Lio scummy stuff was weird, as well.
It's early, so it's just small stuff, but it definitely got my attention.
-
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
I think this is unfair. I've had reasons for the towncred and scumcred beyond not agreeing with me every time, although I admit pushing people away from things that I think are towny is something I tend to think of as scummy.
I think we should note, however, that I've been finding Raerae towny since about the second real-life day despite disagreeing with me, I've actually been finding Shraeye a bit towny in the last day or so (although scummy before then, so pretty much null) despite Shraeye disagreeing with me and antagonizing me at every opportunity.
I've been finding Chairs scummy for just agreeing with me about things without any thought or discussion (up until this last real life day or two where I've found him even scummier for his unexplained vote and refusal to explain anything.)
And I've found nkirbit slightly scummy for a few posts, even though I think nkirbit and I have pretty much agreed on everything.
-
Cool; I like that summary,, and will read it in depth later.
I'm still liking Voltaire as scum. Another thing I noticed is that Twistedarcher was the first to bring up Voltaire stuff, but he isn't currently on Voltaire, he abandoned that for ash when the Volt stuff started getting serious (maybe my timeline is jacked up, but this is what I remember).
Additionally he has been one of the players who has said without good explanation that I felt 'off'.
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
I don't recall Twisted using meta-type stuff like this (so it's more suspicious than, say, when Eevee calls me 'off'). I look at this as a way to discredit me (the player who is running with teh Volt-lynch) after Twisted realized that his "throw suspicion at partner" strategy might get his partner lynched.
Twisted just used that strategy in me in the Innovation RMM game, and we did quite well. So it makes sense that he might try it again. Also, in that game, I think his flaw as scum in that game was that he was calling me (his partner) suspicious WHILE also being very careful to ask questions about people who were finding me scummy. I mean to say, I think scumTwisted defends his partners more than other mafia-members do.
Another red-flag is that in Innovation, I told Twisted to blow up the thread with tons of posts, as this really hurts rereads and all. This game, he has done the opposite and is one of the lower posters. This looks to me like an attempt to purposefully do something 'different' from the last game, so that I wouldn't catch him that way.
I think it's highly likely that there are two scum in {Voltaire, nkirbit, Twisted}.
I find it interesting that you're using my similarities to different games selectively.
In pirates, when we were both town, one of the MAIN reasons you pushed my lynch so hard is that you thought I was throwing suspicion everywhere, on a lot of players. You called me out for it, over and over, D1, D2, repeatedly. Yet you're using it here, again, as a reason to find me scummy. You make no link with the previous game, which I would expect to remain fairly prominent in your mind given how much you tunneled me in that game.
Yet, you don't bring it up as a reason to find me towny.
I also think it's really, really, really, odd that you're using my gameplay from Innovation, and found one similarity, and one difference. Yet somehow you've used BOTH of them to paint me in a scummy light.
I don't get how I could simultaneous be scummy for a difference from Innovation, and scummy for a similarity to Innovation.
It seems like you're selectively picking and choosing my similarities to other games to find reasons I'm scummy.
This sets off alarm bells for me. You're not looking to identify whether or not I'm scummy, or towny. You are digging for reasons on why I'm scummy. Town has more incentive to try to identify whether I'm town or scum -- but that's not what you're doing here. You're simply looking for reasons to make me seem scummy. This is fishy, especially given that I'm not a viable lynch target, and it gives me the impression you're already starting towards your D2 mislynch, after you get the D1 mislynch out of the way.
-
Sorry I didn't post yesterday :-[
I'm just a poor little Vanilla Townie. Please don't lynch me!
1. How does this make people feel about him? I'm pretty much exactly where I was. At first I was thinking a Vanilla Townie claim wasn't a great way to get out of a lynch, and it isn't, but then scum knows that, and more importantly, we know what and how many powerroles there are, there is no powerrole you can claim in this game that can't be counterclaimed immediately, so it seems like that wouldn't save you either, and this is an equally logical gambit. (I'm not saying this is a bonus point against him, I'm saying this leaves me feeling he had the exact same probability of being scum as before.) Thoughts?
2. I've obviously never lynched Chairs before, does the "poor little Vanilla Townie" phrasing seem legit to you guys. This is one of the areas where I think meta arguments make sense.
3. No one has stated intent to hammer yet, although we are less than 24 hours from the deadline and he's at L-1, so I can see the logic if he's not going to be on much.
Conclusion: I still think he's got a better-than-50% chance of being scum and he's certainly been unhelpful. I think his chances of being scum are much better than anyone else I'd want to lynch other than Robz and Mcmcsalot. This claim doesn't make me think he's more likely to be scum, but it doesn't make me think he's less likely to be scum either.
4. I like numbers today, apparently.
I believe the VT claim. I think a first-time scum would probably be more likely to try and claim a PR to save himself. The phrasing also seems really genuine, and in line with everything I've seen with Chairs.
I don't think he's going to flip scum. This seems really genuine. I'm not feeling great about Voltaire, either, and I can think of at least 4 people (Ash, Jimmm (his earlier post regarding Ash seemed really disgenuine, and his most recent large post seems more like an attempt by scum to avoid being caught on the bandwagon of a town member than anything else), Shraeye, and Mcmc.)
I think CHairs is VT, as he claims. I think Volt is probably town, too. I'm just not feeling great about the case on either one of them. Chairs DOES play with his gut a lot (and I can't blame him, he's been right with it a lot, and I'd keep playing with my gut if it consistently nailed scum!)
As for the Volt case, I really think it's a weak D1 case, but it's D1. I haven't read the game in 2 days so I need to re-familiarize myself with the case, but I will do that and then post my opinion on the case.
-
I also believe chairs to be a VT.
-
This post is interesting to me -- it starts off not trying to disprove the Voltaire bandwagon, but rather to discredit it. That's a pretty key difference -- it not only tries to convince people against a lynch, but also to simultaneously paint several people on the wagon as scummy.
I don't think UoS would be so obviously defending a scum partner, though. To me, this reads more like an attempt to paint the people on the wagon scummy, in case Voltaire DOES flip town. This makes me think that the wagon on Voltaire, at the time of this post, was a town-wagon driven by townies. I think Voltaire is town, as well, and we're more likely to find scum on Chairs' current wagon. This would also go along with scum!Jimmm trying to hop on the Voltaire wagon, as both of his teammates would have already been on the Chairs wagon.
I think Volt is more likely scum than Chairs, but I really think they're both town.
-
Vote: Voltaire
I hate voting for someone I think is probably town, but I think that Chairs will flip town, and I believe his claim. I'm less confident in my town-read on Voltaire, but I think these are our only two options, and I don't want to see Chairs lynched.
-
I also believe chairs to be a VT.
Cool you wanna go back to voting for volt so he can be L-1
-
I also believe chairs to be a VT.
Cool you wanna go back to voting for volt so he can be L-1
Well, the Volt lynch is making me a little more nervous. I definitely think he acted scummy in several ways, but he is a top poster, and we have a lot of lurkers.
I am voting for liopoil, I think justly.
I guess I will definitely vote for Volt if it's necessary to get a lynch, but... do you see what I am saying? Check out that post count I made.
-
Robz, scum lio posts more. Scum lio is hyper-sensitive to being caught lurking. Lurking and sheeping is just lio.
-
Voltaire (4): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, Voltaire (L-2)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
liopoil (1): Robz
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
Updated vote count above. Robz had been on Voltaire. I haven't been on either.
Voltaire is more likely to flip scum, by far. I agree with everyone that chairs is probably a VT as claimed. Scum's best move, especially if they're about to lose themselves a partner on D1, is claim PR, and in this case Trackilante. That's who they'd want to out with a counterclaim.
-
Ash, I DON'T usually lurk and sheep :P I don't understand why you all are believing chairs. true, scum should try to out a PR. but claiming PR also guarrantees that you will be counterclaimed and lynched. chairs claimed when he shouldn't have if he is town, because there is still nobody stating intent to hammer. I would believe him more if there was someone willing to hammer him, but this looks more like him trying to avoid his lynch altogether because scum would claim PR.
-
Ash, I DON'T usually lurk and sheep :P I don't understand why you all are believing chairs. true, scum should try to out a PR. but claiming PR also guarrantees that you will be counterclaimed and lynched. chairs claimed when he shouldn't have if he is town, because there is still nobody stating intent to hammer. I would believe him more if there was someone willing to hammer him, but this looks more like him trying to avoid his lynch altogether because scum would claim PR.
You are refuting my reasons for why I think you are likely town? Um, okay.
-
Ash, I DON'T usually lurk and sheep :P I don't understand why you all are believing chairs. true, scum should try to out a PR. but claiming PR also guarrantees that you will be counterclaimed and lynched. chairs claimed when he shouldn't have if he is town, because there is still nobody stating intent to hammer. I would believe him more if there was someone willing to hammer him, but this looks more like him trying to avoid his lynch altogether because scum would claim PR.
VT is so innocuous, he could be lying. But why waste the claim like that? Scum's got to be thinking ahead. Like, town has a tough time fake claiming because the real PR could counterclaim, and then you lose two townies. Scum doesn't have that problem.
1 for 1 trades are good for scum if the town half of that equation is a PR.
-
Vote Count 1.17
"But how did he die?" shrieked Mrs. Peacock. "One of us must have killed him!"
"Why do you think it was one of us?" asked Mr. Green.
"Because I was watching the door the entire time! No one came in or out!" she yelled with a glare.
"Not true," said The Singing Telegram Girl. "All of you came running to me when I had my panic attack in the Billard's Room. Except one of you wasn't there... I can't remember whom though."
"Well whomever wasn't with us in that room must be the killer," exclaimed Miss Scarlet.
"Brilliant Miss Scarlet, completely brilliant!" said Col. Mustard. "Victory chest bump!" he said as he moved toward Miss Scarlet.
"Ah, watch it!" she said as she raised her hands to stop him from coming any closer.
Voltaire (5): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA (L-2)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
lipoil (1): Robz
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
I am VLA after this post. EFHW and Jorbles will provide post counts. I will check in tomorrow evening regardless of there being a lynch or a no-lynch and will lock the thread then. So expect some twilight for you all. From there I will be on again at a later date to unlock the thread and Robz will notify me via text if there has been a lynch for day2.
Also those of you die in the next few days there will be a flavor mini-game. I will come back and fill in the flavor bits. From there each of you have one opportunity to guess who the murderer is, where the murder was committed and with what. CLUEDO style! But you have to guess before you die--unless you die while I am VLA, then you have after I post the rest of the flavor and then your opportunity is up.
-
Ash, I DON'T usually lurk and sheep :P I don't understand why you all are believing chairs. true, scum should try to out a PR. but claiming PR also guarrantees that you will be counterclaimed and lynched. chairs claimed when he shouldn't have if he is town, because there is still nobody stating intent to hammer. I would believe him more if there was someone willing to hammer him, but this looks more like him trying to avoid his lynch altogether because scum would claim PR.
I was worried the hammer was going to go down while I was gone, I was already at L-1. Seemed like a good opportunity to throw it out there.
Particularly with Day1 about to end, I felt it was important that I don't miss the opportunity to defend myself, however weakly that opportunity was.
-
Hello........anyone? Day ends in 14 hours.
-
Ash, I DON'T usually lurk and sheep :P I don't understand why you all are believing chairs. true, scum should try to out a PR. but claiming PR also guarrantees that you will be counterclaimed and lynched. chairs claimed when he shouldn't have if he is town, because there is still nobody stating intent to hammer. I would believe him more if there was someone willing to hammer him, but this looks more like him trying to avoid his lynch altogether because scum would claim PR.
I was worried the hammer was going to go down while I was gone, I was already at L-1. Seemed like a good opportunity to throw it out there.
Particularly with Day1 about to end, I felt it was important that I don't miss the opportunity to defend myself, however weakly that opportunity was.
I had no issues with the timing of your claim.
-
chairs, can you give your reads for everyone? Or quote where you did? It's helpful in case you die.
-
Also, this is your first forum mafia game here, right?
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
-
Hello........anyone? Day ends in 14 hours.
I'm here.
To answer your Chairs question, this is his third game, I believe. He was town in Back to Basics, and town in Innovation.
Mcmc isn't going to happen today -- how do you feel on Chairs v. Volt?
-
Hello........anyone? Day ends in 14 hours.
I'm here.
To answer your Chairs question, this is his third game, I believe. He was town in Back to Basics, and town in Innovation.
Mcmc isn't going to happen today -- how do you feel on Chairs v. Volt?
Thanks for the chairs thing. I forgot he was in Innovation, but that game was a bear to digest, and I skipped B2B.
Mcmc isn't happening today because? UoS found 6 people willing to vote the guy. Do they all prefer Chairs or Volt to mcmc?
14 hours from now is my middle of the night. I guess I'm willing to hammer before going to sleep if it means averting a No Lynch, but literally, that's the only reason.
I prefer Volt to chairs, so if you are willing to put him at L-1, that helps. I think we'll need a claim from Volt as well.
-
Oh right, Robz is the one that switched. I wonder if he's willing to switch back to avert the No Lynch.
-
I'm on volt currently. I would hammer chairs tomorrow to avoid no lynch though and I'm sure others would also
-
Is there anything else to discuss? We've run out of time and it seems a lot of folks have dug in their heels.
I'd like a Volt claim, but it isn't coming until he's back at L-1 with Intent to Hammer, I imagine. Anyone on chairs willing to switch?
-
Voltaire (5): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA (L-2)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
liopoil (1): Robz
Looking at wagons, I see town reads on chairs and scum reads on Volt, but I think Volt is more likely scum than chairs. I don't know what to think of that.
I honestly think that people feel like chairs is the safest option for D1. I think the town on his wagon believe losing town chairs is not as bad as losing town Volt, and aren't willing to take the risk.
I think that's a bad policy for lynching. Has volt been more active? Sure. Doesn't make him more "valuable" or more likely to be town. Volt has a higher chance of flipping scum, if we have to choose between the two, it's a no brainer.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
Are you kidding me?
1. Townie
2. Null/suspicious
3. Null
4. Townie/suspicious
5. Suspicious/expect more
6. Null
7. Null
8. Suspicious/expect more
9. Null
10. Scum
11. Null
12. Townie
So you have one scum read and everyone else is null and you have a few slight town/suspicion.
Whoops!! Sorrry! Forgot to name the scumteam D1 since I'm so awesome and great at that and it always benefits town and is never ever wrong or totally misguided! Say something productive, please. By the way, where is that reads reasons list you've been promising us all day?
-
Whoops!! Sorrry! Forgot to name the scumteam D1 since I'm so awesome and great at that and it always benefits town and is never ever wrong or totally misguided! Say something productive, please. By the way, where is that reads reasons list you've been promising us all day?
Vote mcmc with me, raerae. You know you want to. He's scummy like Randall.
-
I find it interesting that you're using my similarities to different games selectively.
In pirates, when we were both town, one of the MAIN reasons you pushed my lynch so hard is that you thought I was throwing suspicion everywhere, on a lot of players. You called me out for it, over and over, D1, D2, repeatedly. Yet you're using it here, again, as a reason to find me scummy. You make no link with the previous game, which I would expect to remain fairly prominent in your mind given how much you tunneled me in that game.
Yet, you don't bring it up as a reason to find me towny.
I also think it's really, really, really, odd that you're using my gameplay from Innovation, and found one similarity, and one difference. Yet somehow you've used BOTH of them to paint me in a scummy light.
I don't get how I could simultaneous be scummy for a difference from Innovation, and scummy for a similarity to Innovation.
It seems like you're selectively picking and choosing my similarities to other games to find reasons I'm scummy.
This sets off alarm bells for me. You're not looking to identify whether or not I'm scummy, or towny. You are digging for reasons on why I'm scummy. Town has more incentive to try to identify whether I'm town or scum -- but that's not what you're doing here. You're simply looking for reasons to make me seem scummy. This is fishy, especially given that I'm not a viable lynch target, and it gives me the impression you're already starting towards your D2 mislynch, after you get the D1 mislynch out of the way.
As for the Pirates game, there was a difference there. It looked like you were 'shotgunning' suspicion on EVERYONE, and seeing what stuck. I am not accusing you of that in this game. I am saying that you are simultaneously showing suspicion of Voltaire, but also protecting him. I'm just looking at your interactions with just one person, not with all people.
For the second bolded part, as I explained to somebody (nkirbit?) already, I think it makes sense that both of the aspects I mentioned are scummy in this game, even though one is a similarity to Innovation, and one is a difference. The thing that you are doing patently different between the games is a very obvious tell. In Innovation, I encouraged you to flood the thread with tons of posts. Here, you have sooo few, that I'm thinking you are consciously trying to move away from something that shraeye told you to do in Innovation, lest he pick you out as scum in this game.
The thing that you are doing similarly (simultaneously attacking and defending somebody) is something that I am not so sure you would have been aware of, because it wasn't something that we explicitly discussed in the Innovation scumQT. Therefore, when I see you committing that foul again, I find that it is evidence of the scumTwisted-meta.
Additionally, in the underlined part, you're saying that if anyone says that somebody other than chairs/Volt is scummy, then that person is scum. Well forgive me for being town, but I don't have the luxury of knowing that I'll survive until tomorrow. If I find somebody scummy, I'm putting that read out there for sure.
-
Shraeye seems off
Ooh, please do explain!
The first thing that stuck out at me were that you were calling people out for "editing" their posts, when they clearly weren't editing, they just made a typo. It's odd to accuse someone of editing a post when there's actual mistakes in it -- wouldn't it not have typos?
If you go back to look at those posts, these weren't just typos. They weren't misspelled words, missings words, or substituted words. It looks like the sentence was at various times written in multiple ways, and then never seamlessly edited together properly. Remnants of each way of writing it remain.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
No. No. It's D1. I refuse to name a scumteam D1. I won't because that's ridiculous. I reserve the right to be unsure about everything ESPECIALLY D1. Why did you only point out Volt? None of my reads were solid. All could be considered hedgey. Why only point the finger at Volt?
-
Whoops!! Sorrry! Forgot to name the scumteam D1 since I'm so awesome and great at that and it always benefits town and is never ever wrong or totally misguided! Say something productive, please. By the way, where is that reads reasons list you've been promising us all day?
Vote mcmc with me, raerae. You know you want to. He's scummy like Randall.
I could probably be convinced, is there a case on him I can review?
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
No. No. It's D1. I refuse to name a scumteam D1. I won't because that's ridiculous. I reserve the right to be unsure about everything ESPECIALLY D1. Why did you only point out Volt? None of my reads were solid. All could be considered hedgey. Why only point the finger at Volt?
I said why only Volt. Because he's the alternative lynch.
You're looking at the alternative lynch, and basically saying you're totally unsure. I get that, it's a valid opinion, it's D1. But you're basically saying "I see where people are coming from, but he seems towny too, so I don't know." You're not taking a stand one way or the other.
I know it's D1, and no one's asking you to name the scum team. But you have a lot of null reads, a ton of null reads, and I think that's pretty unusual to have so many players you just don't have an opinion on at this point.
-
Whoops!! Sorrry! Forgot to name the scumteam D1 since I'm so awesome and great at that and it always benefits town and is never ever wrong or totally misguided! Say something productive, please. By the way, where is that reads reasons list you've been promising us all day?
Vote mcmc with me, raerae. You know you want to. He's scummy like Randall.
I could probably be convinced, is there a case on him I can review?
Here was my first statement on mcmc being scummy from who knows when (I used "print" to search):
mcmcsalot == first post of the game was "hey I like this Hider plan, do this and do that" and then he had the "this ash is scum ash, too easy vote: ash" and then he was all "wait, that's town ash unvote". That's the entirety of his game play so far. This isn't lurky-town-mcmc, which we've all come to know. This is scum!mcmc with drive by postings. His flipflop on me was too convenient, and he only switched off after he saw I wasn't going to be the easy lynch.
Since then, he's flip flopped on me again and he's still sort of lurked. I'll look for more of the cases on him.
-
Ashersky, why do you want volt to claim? he shouldn't claim unless he's getting lynched for sure if he doesn't. If volt is town and he claims and we just lynch chairs that's bad... and if chairs is town and we lynch volt that's bad too. I think chairs is more likely to flip scum AND the lynch that hurts town less if he is town, because he is a claimed VT.
-
Regarding an Mcmcsalot vote:
1. Ashersky is currently voting him.
2. Umbrageofsnow has voted for him and would happily do so again.
3. Twistedarcher said "I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think"
These seem like the definite votes. Then we have
4. Raerae "As I said, chairs is the other one I would vote for"
5. Voltaire "Chairs I find the most scummy... mcmc I also find scummy, but not as strongly.
6. Liopoil lists him in his second tier of scumminess, less so than Robz and chairs, but still scummy
Those are all the public statements I could find in recent days (might have missed something though)
7. ?
Eevee said he thought Mcmcsalot was "too easy", so I sort of doubt he'd be the 7th vote.
Although I don't know if we have a 7th vote for chairs either.
DOES ANYONE WANT TO VOTE FOR MCMCSALOT THAT I DIDN'T LIST?
WOULD ANYONE NOT ON THE CHAIRS WAGON PREFER THE MCMCSALOT WAGON?
I'm happy with either lynch. But it would be nice to get seven people together without anyone feeling like we're getting scum to push us into compromising for a likely town-lynch. Is that often possible? I'd like it to be, but I admit I don't know.
Here UoS mentions others who have found mcmc scummy. I'm looking for why still, but TA is around. He could add to this.
-
That said, I too am willing to vote voltaire to avert no lynch, but so is everyone else I think.
-
Here is my shortened reads list
Scum:
Voltaire (most very likely),
Twitsed (definitely),
nkirbit (it's a pretty weak read)
people I'm suspicious of:
Jimmmm (I keep feeling uneasy when I think of him as town; but also when I think of him as scum),
Umbrage (null for now; if Twisted flips scum, his scumminess goes up)
Super-null:
Robz
liopoil (I was messin' around earlier)
Eevee
chairs (i haven't even read this case yet; I promise to if somebody gives me post numbers to check on)
people who I feel comfortable with:
raerae (she cool),
mcmcsalot (this last-hour suspicion really makes me skeptical...when I'm scum and my partner is picking up scumreads, but isn't in the limelight, I'm unlikely to also call him scum. But if some towny is picking up sideline suspicion, I'll fan those flames and call him scum too. The fact that 6-7 people find him suspicious and he's like the double double backup list as others pursue other stuff; it makes me lean town)
Town:
ashersky (I'm pretty confident in this)
-
Shraeye, it's pretty clear to me that the editing examples you pointed out were just people typing more quickly than their brains could think. You're not using it as a major point though, so I don't really think it's worth arguing over.
As for me changing how I play -- you're free to think that I'm completely changing my gameplay based off of one suggestion you made, but I can assure you, I'm not. You very easily could have taken the argument that I'm changing my play, because you pointed out how anti-town my filling up threads was, to be more towny this game and make it easier for us to catch scum. But instead, you'resaying that I'm doing it to create false towncred for myself as scum. What you're saying is just one explanation, much like all the other things you're finding me scummy for.
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light. For most things you've pointed out, there's also an explanation to how my gameplay could be interpreted as more towny in this game. Yet, in most instances, you've come down on the side of "TA is scummy because of this difference/similarity". I have the benefit of knowing I'm town, but I think you're reallllly reaching in your reasoning, and that you were sitting waiting for the end of Innovation so that you could build a case on me once everyone saw I flipped scum there.
Your explanation of my behavior in this game seems like scum reaching for reasons to justify a scum-read, rather than town hunting to see if someone's scummy. Basically, I'm getting the impression that the read came before the reasons, and that's something that will always be scummy to me.
-
I said why only Volt. Because he's the alternative lynch.
You're looking at the alternative lynch, and basically saying you're totally unsure. I get that, it's a valid opinion, it's D1. But you're basically saying "I see where people are coming from, but he seems towny too, so I don't know." You're not taking a stand one way or the other.
I know it's D1, and no one's asking you to name the scum team. But you have a lot of null reads, a ton of null reads, and I think that's pretty unusual to have so many players you just don't have an opinion on at this point.
[/quote]
But...what?? I mean, is it OK for me to be unsure or not OK? You said both. (talk about hedgey...) I don't understand. I've asked for clarification on both current lynch targets and haven't received any. I can see the case on Volt but considering it's coming from somebody I'm inherently suspicious of, obviously I'm not going to jump straight on without an explanation of why it's better than my D1 case. And to be honest, they are both weak but it's the best anybody has bothered to come up with today so shame straight on your face for not even offering something better.
-
My main reasons for finding Mcmc scummy are his vote/unvote on Ash at weird times, and his interaction with Robz. I really do think that Mcmc calling Robz towny for weak reasons make it more likely that Mcmc is scum, and Robz towny. It's an easy way to pick up towncred, and easily justifiable by the fact that he knows Robz better than the rest of us if he's questioned on it.
-
Ashersky, why do you want volt to claim? he shouldn't claim unless he's getting lynched for sure if he doesn't. If volt is town and he claims and we just lynch chairs that's bad... and if chairs is town and we lynch volt that's bad too. I think chairs is more likely to flip scum AND the lynch that hurts town less if he is town, because he is a claimed VT.
I want Volt to claim if he's at L-1. Same as chairs. So I'd like to put him in that position.
Here's the thing on "if chairs is town." His VT claims helps scum narrow down their NK choices, since they'll be PR hunting, right? Likely to survive (great choice for the Hider, fyi). So some town will argue "let's just kill VT chairs, since he won't be NKed."
If that's the stance we're taking, what's the difference between lynching chairs and a no lynch? Like, you're stating "hey let's kill town so that we don't need to worry about it." If killing the VT is the best course of action, that's at the very least equal to a no lynch, since he isn't dying at night.
If you believe chairs is scum, that's fine. That's an opinion. But I think the "less likely to hurt town since he's just a VT" is a terrible argument to make.
Also, when you say "if chairs is town and we lynch volt that's bad" sounds really bad. Like, you can parse that to say "if chairs is town and we don't mislynch him, that's bad." That's scum talk there.
-
Shame straight on my face??? Um...thanks? I don't know what you have against me, I really really don't, but please don't shame straight on my face, thanks.
I've also been very clear about who is my preferred lynch. I think Ashersky is scum, but that wagon isn't happening.
I am not the main proponent of the Volt lynch, and I don't have anything better to offer on why he's scummy. I just think there's a much, much better chance of Volt flipping scum than Chairs. I think Chairs is VT as he claims.
-
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light.
This is just such an easy counter-accusation to make when one has no reasonable defense to make.
-
Shame straight on my face??? Um...thanks? I don't know what you have against me, I really really don't, but please don't shame straight on my face, thanks.
I've also been very clear about who is my preferred lynch. I think Ashersky is scum, but that wagon isn't happening.
I am not the main proponent of the Volt lynch, and I don't have anything better to offer on why he's scummy. I just think there's a much, much better chance of Volt flipping scum than Chairs. I think Chairs is VT as he claims.
We agree here, that Volt is more likely than chairs to flip scum. I'm also anti shame on the face. Sounds...like it needs to be in the out of context thread.
-
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light.
This is just such an easy counter-accusation to make when one has no reasonable defense to make.
You do this, though. We all do. We think someone's scummy, then we find proof. Sometimes the other way around.
It doesn't make shraeye scummy, is what I'm saying.
-
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light.
This is just such an easy counter-accusation to make when one has no reasonable defense to make.
What reasonable defense do you expect? You're saying I'm purposely posting less to get town cred, as scum. What possible defense do you expect other than "No I'm not!" I can't prove to you that I'm posting less for any other reason, and it's very clear to me that you're analyzing things that aren't necessarily scummy in a scummy light.
Now, I know I'm town. I don't know if you're town or scum. But given what I know, the fact that you're choosing to interpret my actions one way rather than another reads fishy to me.
-
My main reasons for finding Mcmc scummy are his vote/unvote on Ash at weird times, and his interaction with Robz. I really do think that Mcmc calling Robz towny for weak reasons make it more likely that Mcmc is scum, and Robz towny. It's an easy way to pick up towncred, and easily justifiable by the fact that he knows Robz better than the rest of us if he's questioned on it.
mcmc-Robz is always tough. I never know what to think. My gut tells me mcmc is usually right about Robz, regardless of his alignment, while Robz is usually wrong about mcmc, regardless of purpose.
-
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light.
This is just such an easy counter-accusation to make when one has no reasonable defense to make.
You do this, though. We all do. We think someone's scummy, then we find proof. Sometimes the other way around.
It doesn't make shraeye scummy, is what I'm saying.
No, not necessarily. But it's one of the key things I look for when I scum hunt. Scum have to stretch to find their reasons unless someone's straight up scummy, while town should look for the proof first.
It's not slam dunk, of course, but I've found that it's really, really useful to look for this. Scum do this MUCH more often from my experience.
-
What I find interesting about your analysis is that it reeks of trying to find reasons to paint me scummy. You're taking differences/similarities in my game play, and analyzing them in a scummy light.
This is just such an easy counter-accusation to make when one has no reasonable defense to make.
You do this, though. We all do. We think someone's scummy, then we find proof. Sometimes the other way around.
It doesn't make shraeye scummy, is what I'm saying.
No, not necessarily. But it's one of the key things I look for when I scum hunt. Scum have to stretch to find their reasons unless someone's straight up scummy, while town should look for the proof first.
It's not slam dunk, of course, but I've found that it's really, really useful to look for this. Scum do this MUCH more often from my experience.
Some scum do it. Other scum wait for someone to paint themselves into a scummy corner and then point it out.
-
If that's the stance we're taking, what's the difference between lynching chairs and a no lynch? Like, you're stating "hey let's kill town so that we don't need to worry about it." If killing the VT is the best course of action, that's at the very least equal to a no lynch, since he isn't dying at night.
If you believe chairs is scum, that's fine. That's an opinion. But I think the "less likely to hurt town since he's just a VT" is a terrible argument to make.
Thanks for making this argument. It's true people; and if you don't believe it's true, read ash's post again until you understand that it's true.
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
Saying "He could be doing this as scum" isn't convincing to me when he just as easily could be doing this as town. Yeah, he could be scum, but that doesn't make him scum. If TA is scum, his actions make sense, but if TA is town, his actions make sense. So I don't see how you can distinguish between town TA and scum TA at all on the postcount matter. It's a complete null-read to me.
-
re ashersky: Lynching chairs just because he claimed VT is terrible. But in the possible scenerario that volt and chairs are both town and we're gonna lynch one of them, chairs is the mislynch that hurts less. that's just something to take into account.
-
My main reasons for finding Mcmc scummy are his vote/unvote on Ash at weird times, and his interaction with Robz. I really do think that Mcmc calling Robz towny for weak reasons make it more likely that Mcmc is scum, and Robz towny. It's an easy way to pick up towncred, and easily justifiable by the fact that he knows Robz better than the rest of us if he's questioned on it.
mcmc-Robz is always tough. I never know what to think. My gut tells me mcmc is usually right about Robz, regardless of his alignment, while Robz is usually wrong about mcmc, regardless of purpose.
Yeah. I agree, it's tough.
But I know for me, also having a brother who plays, honestly I can't really read Nkirbit better or worse than anyone else. He's just another player who I try to read but it's not much easier for me. Given that Nkirbit's actually my twin, and I'm guessing I know him better than Robz and Mcmc know each other, Mcmc giving Robz a town read on little information just seems like him being more sure than he could possibly be. Like, if I can't see why Robz is towny, and most people can't, I doubt Mcmc would be able to, either. Therefore, when Mcmc calls Robz towny on slight information, it reads scummy to me.
-
Shame straight on my face??? Um...thanks? I don't know what you have against me, I really really don't, but please don't shame straight on my face, thanks.
I've also been very clear about who is my preferred lynch. I think Ashersky is scum, but that wagon isn't happening.
I am not the main proponent of the Volt lynch, and I don't have anything better to offer on why he's scummy. I just think there's a much, much better chance of Volt flipping scum than Chairs. I think Chairs is VT as he claims.
Yeah, it hasn't been happening, like, all day. So you're telling me you don't have any stronger reads than that after this entire day? Hello pot. Nice to meet you. I'm kettle.
-
Given that Nkirbit's actually my twin,
You do realize that just because you are able to hear each other's thoughts that it isn't okay to think about the game with each other right? Psychic discussion is just as off-limits!
-
Shame straight on my face??? Um...thanks? I don't know what you have against me, I really really don't, but please don't shame straight on my face, thanks.
I've also been very clear about who is my preferred lynch. I think Ashersky is scum, but that wagon isn't happening.
I am not the main proponent of the Volt lynch, and I don't have anything better to offer on why he's scummy. I just think there's a much, much better chance of Volt flipping scum than Chairs. I think Chairs is VT as he claims.
Yeah, it hasn't been happening, like, all day. So you're telling me you don't have any stronger reads than that after this entire day? Hello pot. Nice to meet you. I'm kettle.
#812 I listed four players I would rather lynch over Volt/Chairs
-
Given that Nkirbit's actually my twin,
You do realize that just because you are able to hear each other's thoughts that it isn't okay to think about the game with each other right? Psychic discussion is just as off-limits!
It's like a neighbor QT that no one will ever be able to read!
-
Given that Nkirbit's actually my twin,
You do realize that just because you are able to hear each other's thoughts that it isn't okay to think about the game with each other right? Psychic discussion is just as off-limits!
It's like a neighbor QT that no one will ever be able to read!
If you guys are conjoined, I'm calling a mistrial on this game.
-
I'm not lynching Chairs because of the VT claim, either. I think he scummily sheeped onto two wagons without a good reason for either, and never gave me any reason to make me think his reasons were less scummy. I'm also uncomfortable with how he tried to push Voltaire off his wagon by threatening him that "he would be the lynch tomorrow when I flip town." I can't imagine myself ever making such a statement as town, and it seems out of character from what I've seen from the couple of game I've played with Chairs.
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
At the time that I had pointed it out, Twisted was almost at the lowest end of the votecount, near me and chairs and other low-posters. That is a HUUUGE switch from somebody who in Innovation had at least 3x as many posts as almost every player (for eevee it was just under 3times, and for ashersky it's more like 2x)
-
re ashersky: Lynching chairs just because he claimed VT is terrible. But in the possible scenerario that volt and chairs are both town and we're gonna lynch one of them, chairs is the mislynch that hurts less. that's just something to take into account.
This is one of the best sounding typos ever.
-
re ashersky: Lynching chairs just because he claimed VT is terrible. But in the possible scenerario that volt and chairs are both town and we're gonna lynch one of them, chairs is the mislynch that hurts less. that's just something to take into account.
wait wait wait; why do you discount that Voltaire is also VT?????????
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
At the time that I had pointed it out, Twisted was almost at the lowest end of the votecount, near me and chairs and other low-posters. That is a HUUUGE switch from somebody who in Innovation had at least 3x as many posts as almost every player (for eevee it was just under 3times, and for ashersky it's more like 2x)
Yeah, I know it's a huge change. But I'm saying that both town and scum TA would have an incentive to make such a huge change... do you disagree with that?
-
re ashersky: Lynching chairs just because he claimed VT is terrible. But in the possible scenerario that volt and chairs are both town and we're gonna lynch one of them, chairs is the mislynch that hurts less. that's just something to take into account.
wait wait wait; why do you discount that Voltaire is also VT?????????
He means that if we lynched Chairs now, Volt wouldn't claim, so we'd have a larger pool for possible PRs, I believe
-
re ashersky: Lynching chairs just because he claimed VT is terrible. But in the possible scenerario that volt and chairs are both town and we're gonna lynch one of them, chairs is the mislynch that hurts less. that's just something to take into account.
wait wait wait; why do you discount that Voltaire is also VT?????????
I go back to my argument, where I think liopoil (and probably others) feel that losing VT chairs is more acceptable than losing VT Volt. Clearly losing VT chairs is better than PR Volt. But that's true regardless of who we're talking about.
I just don't see that as the actual situation.
I think we're looking at losing VT chairs in lieu of possibly-mafia Volt. And that makes no sense to me.
-
I strongly disagree with Lio on the VT issue. Lynching mafia is our highest priority, by a good deal. If we, as a group, think that Volt is likelier to flip scum than Chairs, then we shouldn't lynch Chairs. Regardless of who has claimed and who hasn't claimed.
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
At the time that I had pointed it out, Twisted was almost at the lowest end of the votecount, near me and chairs and other low-posters. That is a HUUUGE switch from somebody who in Innovation had at least 3x as many posts as almost every player (for eevee it was just under 3times, and for ashersky it's more like 2x)
Yeah, I know it's a huge change. But I'm saying that both town and scum TA would have an incentive to make such a huge change... do you disagree with that?
I do disagree; I think townTwisted makes a less drastic change. His scumhunting style (which is part of what constitutes a player's overall meta, since scum are trying to mimic their townselves) involved a lot of posts and back/forth with eachother. Since townTwisted has such a high correct lynch percentage (at 80% now) I think townTwisted would not be so willing to completely abandon his style, and instead would see if more minor changes would help.
-
I strongly disagree with Lio on the VT issue. Lynching mafia is our highest priority, by a good deal. If we, as a group, think that Volt is likelier to flip scum than Chairs, then we shouldn't lynch Chairs. Regardless of who has claimed and who hasn't claimed.
I just play the game assuming everyone is a claimed VT until they otherwise say so. You know what I mean? So the game starts, and everyone is a "claimed VT" from Post 1. Then, my opinion changes as the game goes on, whether due to breadcrumbs, response to plans and claims, actual claims, etc. At worst, VT is the go to mafia fakeclaim, right? No one is going to say they are mafia. So "he claimed VT" means very little to me.
-
shraeye, this is what I have, or had, I guess as this was posted 5 days ago
Chairs reread:
His first seven posts were spent either agreeing with or reiterating/clarifying plans then we have an RVS vote for Robz. Not a whole lot here, both reads and content-wise which gives me a bit of a shady feel but nothing solid.
Advocates Ash's lynch twice (286 & 291...sorry, don't have the mental capacity to link that shit right now) but 291 is the one that especially rubs me wrong for the bolded part below. I don't know if it's just me or what but this sort of statement always screams scummy to me. It suggests a willingness to vote for whoever comes up but doesn't actually offer to do any of the work. It feels like, 'Hey, I pointed this out but if you guys want to point out something else, I'll probably go with that too."
But honestly, I just haven't had a whole bunch to say, especially since we wanted to shut down the theory talk (which is the part of mafia that truly excites me, D1). I could blather indiscriminately about irrelevant things, but I don't really have much to contribute to the hunt per se, except that I think offering yourself up for a lynch is dumb and I think ashersky's worth lynching if a better option doesn't come up.
Continues to push the damn hider plan. I know this is a personal difference between our play and he doesn't understand/agree that it's terrible for town but...ugh, stop talking about it!!
Reads promised on July 14 - reads delivered July 15 (light argument for Ash's lynch again), details presented in the same format at UoS' highly praised "reads" post.
#352 - Again, let's lynch Ash!
#370 - Finally votes for Ash once his wagon has been sufficiently built up.
This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious. Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering? I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.
I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.
#507 & 512 - These sound like a forced overreaction to me. Like feigning anger at his fake reads been called on the carpet even though they were only lightly questioned.
#513 - (Again) Hey, let's lynch Ash!
I want to reread lio & volt too but feel confident my vote will set on one of those guys today. In light of that, unvote, until a decision has been made.
-
Woah woah woah. of course lynching scum is our top priority. but voltaire is a potential PR and chairs isn't, and that matters a tiny bit. I am voting chairs because I think he is more likely scum than voltaire. losing VT chairs is not better than losing VT volt, the two are equivalent.
-
Is TA so far off on his post counts?
I feel like the comparison to the rest of the field metric is the best one, but I feel like in the games you are referencing, I was dead after D1 (so that throws things off) and Eevee has just been chronically underposting.
He's definitely been posting often now.
-
Is TA so far off on his post counts?
I feel like the comparison to the rest of the field metric is the best one, but I feel like in the games you are referencing, I was dead after D1 (so that throws things off) and Eevee has just been chronically underposting.
He's definitely been posting often now.
I have posted drastically less this D1 than any other day I've been alive, so yes, Shraeye's observation is completely correct.
-
In reference to raerae's chairs case, I think the scumslip portion has some merit. Literally no one has discussed it.
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
At the time that I had pointed it out, Twisted was almost at the lowest end of the votecount, near me and chairs and other low-posters. That is a HUUUGE switch from somebody who in Innovation had at least 3x as many posts as almost every player (for eevee it was just under 3times, and for ashersky it's more like 2x)
Yeah, I know it's a huge change. But I'm saying that both town and scum TA would have an incentive to make such a huge change... do you disagree with that?
I do disagree; I think townTwisted makes a less drastic change. His scumhunting style (which is part of what constitutes a player's overall meta, since scum are trying to mimic their townselves) involved a lot of posts and back/forth with eachother. Since townTwisted has such a high correct lynch percentage (at 80% now) I think townTwisted would not be so willing to completely abandon his style, and instead would see if more minor changes would help.
But, that's just like your opinion, man.
-
Shraeye: You told TA to blow up Innovation with posts as scum, specifically because it's anti-town. Sure, scum!TA could have an incentive to act differently, and post less. I'll buy that. But town!TA has that same incentive, simply because he doesn't want to do something that's anti-town!
I think both scum!TA and town!TA would have an incentive to post less, and have no reason to believe it's one or the other. I don't know why you're convinced it's TA being scum, when he has incentives to post less as a town player.
At the time that I had pointed it out, Twisted was almost at the lowest end of the votecount, near me and chairs and other low-posters. That is a HUUUGE switch from somebody who in Innovation had at least 3x as many posts as almost every player (for eevee it was just under 3times, and for ashersky it's more like 2x)
Yeah, I know it's a huge change. But I'm saying that both town and scum TA would have an incentive to make such a huge change... do you disagree with that?
I do disagree; I think townTwisted makes a less drastic change. His scumhunting style (which is part of what constitutes a player's overall meta, since scum are trying to mimic their townselves) involved a lot of posts and back/forth with eachother. Since townTwisted has such a high correct lynch percentage (at 80% now) I think townTwisted would not be so willing to completely abandon his style, and instead would see if more minor changes would help.
Okay, that's fair enough. It wasn't clear to me that this is what you were thinking earlier, but I can see where you're coming from. I know he's had an interest in lowering his post count so he doesn't always feel obligated to be the most active player if he doesn't want to be in a game, so I don't agree with you that it's scummy, but I do see what you're saying.
-
Okay, that's fair enough. It wasn't clear to me that this is what you were thinking earlier, but I can see where you're coming from. I know he's had an interest in lowering his post count so he doesn't always feel obligated to be the most active player if he doesn't want to be in a game, so I don't agree with you that it's scummy, but I do see what you're saying.
Although, I'm in this game, so he only has to be second most active.
-
In reference to raerae's chairs case, I think the scumslip portion has some merit. Literally no one has discussed it.
What are you referring to, exactly?
-
Post count (includes pre-game, cause whatever):
Robz - 47
raerae - 54
lio - 35
TA - 58
shraeye - 60
Eevee - 41
Voltaire - 104
UoS - 119
Jimmmmm - 33
nkirbit - 40
chairs - 43
mcmcsalot - 31
ashersky 151
-
In reference to raerae's chairs case, I think the scumslip portion has some merit. Literally no one has discussed it.
What are you referring to, exactly?
The message to his scumbuddies for not hammering me.
-
I'm here.
Will this be a game of chicken as to who gives up first and switches sides?
I'm starting to feel like both wagons are semi-stalling because they are both town and scum is indifferent as to who gets lynched and doesn't want to get their hands dirty on a town lynch.
Not much we can do about that anymore though, is there?
Robz's late push on liopoil was interesting in this light.
-
I'm here.
Will this be a game of chicken as to who gives up first and switches sides?
I'm starting to feel like both wagons are semi-stalling because they are both town and scum is indifferent as to who gets lynched and doesn't want to get their hands dirty on a town lynch.
Not much we can do about that anymore though, is there?
Robz's late push on liopoil was interesting in this light.
I get the same feeling.
-
Deadline is at 10:30 tomorrow morning, right?
-
Deadline is at 10:30 tomorrow morning, right?
Yes.
-
My main reasons for finding Mcmc scummy are his vote/unvote on Ash at weird times, and his interaction with Robz. I really do think that Mcmc calling Robz towny for weak reasons make it more likely that Mcmc is scum, and Robz towny. It's an easy way to pick up towncred, and easily justifiable by the fact that he knows Robz better than the rest of us if he's questioned on it.
mcmc-Robz is always tough. I never know what to think. My gut tells me mcmc is usually right about Robz, regardless of his alignment, while Robz is usually wrong about mcmc, regardless of purpose.
Agreed.
-
I would much rather hammer Volt than let chairs die. No one for liopoil?
-
Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.
-
Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.
This is just untrue. If you're dying anyways, and you get a PR to claim, isn't that pretty awesome for scum?
I think, given the lack of protective roles in this game, there is MORE incentive to fakeclaim PR, not less incentive.
-
I would much rather hammer Volt than let chairs die. No one for liopoil?
I don't think it's feasible at this point. Personally I haven't found anything Lio's done as scummy.
-
I would much rather hammer Volt than let chairs die. No one for liopoil?
What's the case on lio? Mostly the lurking?
-
In reference to raerae's chairs case, I think the scumslip portion has some merit. Literally no one has discussed it.
What are you referring to, exactly?
The message to his scumbuddies for not hammering me.
Since I'm town, I'd kind of like to see what you're talking about so I can ensure that in future games I don't give you the wrong impression.
Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.
This is just untrue. If you're dying anyways, and you get a PR to claim, isn't that pretty awesome for scum?
I think, given the lack of protective roles in this game, there is MORE incentive to fakeclaim PR, not less incentive.
Arguable; I can see the point you're making, but at the same time you're eating 1 for 1 that way, and if you're SURE you're getting lynched anyway, sure, but if you're not 100% sure you're getting lynched VT is probably the better claim.
==== Final(?) Reads ====
Robz - Town.
raerae - Town.
lio - Null
TA - Null / Slight Town
shraeye - Null / Slight Scum
Eevee - Null
Voltaire - Moderate-Heavy Scum (but that's what would be expected of me to say if I was scum, too, so take that into account if you're using these to determine if to hammer)
UoS - Null / Slight Scum
Jimmmmm - Null
nkirbit - Slight-Moderate Town
mcmcsalot - Null
ashersky - Moderate-Heavy Scum
==== End Reads ====
So, if I don't get to post in here for D2, it's been a pleasure.
-
So how sure are you that you're getting lynched, Chairs?
-
Robz, if you move back to Volt, you can rest assured that if it comes down to it, I'll hammer him over chairs.
-
This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious. Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering? I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.
I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.
Chairs, this is what I was referring to.
-
I'm here.
Will this be a game of chicken as to who gives up first and switches sides?
I'm starting to feel like both wagons are semi-stalling because they are both town and scum is indifferent as to who gets lynched and doesn't want to get their hands dirty on a town lynch.
Not much we can do about that anymore though, is there?
Robz's late push on liopoil was interesting in this light.
The other way to look at it is that wagons that are hard to lynch tend to be scum. I don't know if that's still true, but it used to be. Generally, you aren't getting 100% town wagons, so without scum on board, folks don't get lynched. If scum just stays away from scum buddies, which is easy on D1 when there isn't a clear slip, lynches don't go smoothly.
-
Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.
This is a terrible argument. A few things:
1) Why is someone at L-2 not planning to read the thread? (Standard IRL excuses apply, of course, for why you wouldn't actually read, but actively planning not to when close to death is weird.)
2) Scum would absolutely claim Tracker/Vig if they were going to die, so they could find the real one. Anyone who responds to a tracker/vig claim with "wait, if you are the real one, don't counter claim and let's just lynch this one" would be burnt at the stake. Lynching a claimed PR without a counter just makes no sense. So how does scum out the only PR that actually hurts them? By fakeclaiming it.
3) We should lynch "person who is the option other than me" is not a great statement to be making.
-
Also, for what it is worth, my scum read on TA has lessened over the last 5 hours.
-
So I just caught up, and I still don't see why Volt is more likely to be scum, it seems to me that Chairs is more likely to be scum, and as I said earlier, I don't see why Vanilla Townie is such a bad claim for scum, given that we're having this argument and it seems like his lynch won't go through.
Aside from the policy-vote on Ash and the "Scum might tunnel me on this later so before anyone calls me out on this let me correct myself, it was TA's plan originally, Umbrage just perfected it." (Or whatever he exactly said, I've looked it up like 5 times now, not doing it again right now), what exactly is the reason all the talkative folks other than me are so sure Volt is scum?
The reason I mainly pointed out that I thought so many of the votes on him were suspcious is that
1) I didn't think the two reasons I mentioned above were particularly strong reasons.
2) I didn't see anything else.
3) Since most of the votes I saw on Volt were scummy, it gives me a townread on him. That wagon smelled more like scum manipulation to me.
Obviously, about half of you don't agree on these, but why does it seem like people all dismissed #3 and said I didn't actually show why I didn't like the case on him?
-
Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.
Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it. If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.
-
So how sure are you that you're getting lynched, Chairs?
I'm thinking it's probably 70/30, roughly? I've said some things that at least some town members have interpreted as scummy, and my focus on gut instinct over attempting to logic my way through things (which btw is why I've shifted from scum to town on robz) may work for me, but is not necessarily terribly helpful for town overall, whereas volt has made quite a few posts detailing his position as to his reads (and I'm assuming at this point that one of us is being lynched). As town, I think he's tunneling very hard and it feels kind of like scum trying to force the mislynch, but I've said my piece on that and even that was used as "chairs is scum" ammunition.
This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious. Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering? I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.
I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.
Chairs, this is what I was referring to.
I was legitimately curious - I felt like this was an excellent opportunity for people who are better at rereads than I am to go back and review exactly how that situation defused itself. I also thought that, if you were scum, this was a spot where they could've had a reasonable mislynch and failed to hammer. This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop. It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.
-
Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.
Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it. If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.
This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.
This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.
-
Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.
Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it. If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.
This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.
This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.
You're right and wrong. I definitely strongly believe that Voltaire is town, so I really don't want him lynched. But I was voting Mcmcsalot before Chairs, I've made at least two posts trying to feel people out about that wagon and getting ignored, despite a lot of people finding him scummy, so I'm putting my vote where my mouth is, since I'm worried we're going to get a no-lynch and I don't want to let a townread get hammered.
I've been finding Mcmcsalot very scummy for days, I didn't think that was ever unclear.
-
Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.
Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it. If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.
This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.
This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.
You're right and wrong. I definitely strongly believe that Voltaire is town, so I really don't want him lynched. But I was voting Mcmcsalot before Chairs, I've made at least two posts trying to feel people out about that wagon and getting ignored, despite a lot of people finding him scummy, so I'm putting my vote where my mouth is, since I'm worried we're going to get a no-lynch and I don't want to let a townread get hammered.
I've been finding Mcmcsalot very scummy for days, I didn't think that was ever unclear.
You're worried about a no-lynch, and worried about Voltaire getting hammered, so you're moving off the alternative lynch who is at L-1?
The only way that a no lynch will happen is if we end tonight with 4 people voting mcmc, 4 people voting Voltaire, and 4 people voting Chairs, and don't have enough people online tomorrow morning (generally not the most active time) to force through one of those wagons. I'm a bit worried that this is the situation that you're looking to create.
I agree with you that I would rather lynch Mcmc than Voltaire, and will vote that way if the situation occurs. But I'm worried that if I switch from Chairs to Mcmc, Voltaire will be the only viable option if we want to avoid a no-lynch, so I'm not willing to move at this point.
Plus, I think Chairs is more likely to flip scum than mcmc, so I'd rather stay here.
-
I guess I should clarify the "that's the situation you're looking to create." I don't actually mean that you're doing that deliberately, although that's how it reads. I'm worried that you moving to mcmc will do this, regardless of whether you realize it or not.
-
This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop. It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.
Voltaire policy-voted here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268926#msg268926). July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm. About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.) There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions. I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).
The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.
Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then. Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.
Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him. And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?
-
I guess I should clarify the "that's the situation you're looking to create." I don't actually mean that you're doing that deliberately, although that's how it reads. I'm worried that you moving to mcmc will do this, regardless of whether you realize it or not.
That is kind of the reason I kept hesitating to move my vote.
Yeah, as the only one to respond to that, you may have a point about the number of people checking in. As this day goes on, I keep thinking that the biggest problem we're going to have trying to find scum is just the level of participation in this game.
Vote: Chairs
-
This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop. It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.
Voltaire policy-voted here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268926#msg268926). July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm. About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.) There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions. I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).
The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.
Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then. Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.
Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him. And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?
Fair enough. I'm tired, it's been a ridiculously long week, and you've clearly put in the effort to review something that I had misremembered myself (though I didn't think he'd put L-1 on ash, I did think it had happened in a very "But I want you guys to lynch ash" moment).
-
This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop. It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.
Voltaire policy-voted here (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.msg268926#msg268926). July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm. About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.) There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions. I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).
The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.
Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then. Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.
Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him. And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?
Fair enough. I'm tired, it's been a ridiculously long week, and you've clearly put in the effort to review something that I had misremembered myself (though I didn't think he'd put L-1 on ash, I did think it had happened in a very "But I want you guys to lynch ash" moment).
To be even fairer, I called out Voltaire for putting me at L-1 without warning, and then it turned out I was incorrect about that assertion and retracted it. So that may be adding to your confusion.
-
Unless we're able to get Volt to L-1, nothing is going to happen anyway.
Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy. I mean, horribly scummy. Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.
The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now? There's no shame in switching to Volt here.
Nkirbit, had you voted for mcmc after UoS, we'd have had 3 on him. That's momentum. You killed that momentum and got UoS to revote the towny. FOS at both of you for that.
-
Unless we're able to get Volt to L-1, nothing is going to happen anyway.
Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy. I mean, horribly scummy. Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.
Agreed, that's why I've been interested in the Mcmcsalot potential. Because anyone backing down is going to look scummy, even if they aren't, which may be bad for town in all the havoc it creates, and no one wants to take that jump. I was thinking Mcmcsalot was the other viable lynch, because so many people (including me!) suspect him. Hell, I wanted to lynch him days ago!
The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now? There's no shame in switching to Volt here.
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
Nkirbit, had you voted for mcmc after UoS, we'd have had 3 on him. That's momentum. You killed that momentum and got UoS to revote the towny. FOS at both of you for that.
That is what I was going for, momentum and a viable alternative people could agree on! I've tried to get this started several times!
But nkirbit's post made sense to me too. What if I got him and someone else on the Mcmcsalot wagon, and then no one logged on? People are so damn inactive that it's hard to tell who is going to be around when, and the game seems prone to being sabotaged by real-life availability. I think I already complained about this. But this is my first online game. I hate to bring that up again, but I think it's an important point. I did what I thought made sense, because I was hoping to lead people to a wagon we could compromise on that I ALSO think is scum. But then I get called out on it sabotaging town, so I back down and put my vote back to keeping Chairs an L-1 so people can hammer him near the deadline. But then I get called out on that.
I honestly don't know what to do here. This is a very strange situation to me, and it seems like everything I do or say makes it worse!
(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help. That or calling them useless. People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating. And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything. At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort. I should probably just shut up now. I post too fucking much anyway. I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)
Also, drunk. I should probably shut up.
-
I am around, still. Let me look through who isn't voting Chairs, and if those people are likely to switch.
-
The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now? There's no shame in switching to Volt here.
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
I believe Chairs to Volt is the easy way because Chairs still hasn't been lynched, which lends credence to either belief (town or scum, you can use it to support either argument), and so saying "hey, let's try Volt then" is as fair as anything, plus plenty of others feel he's scummy. A switch to put Volt at L-1 is nowhere near as scummy as a switch to hammer Chairs.
UoS, you seem frustrated. I see where you are coming from. You can't let it rile you like that. That's what scum wants if you are town. This is a game of deception, lies, trickery, and pissing people off. That's why we like it so much. I think you fit in great with this crew, and should keep it up.
-
I am around, still. Let me look through who isn't voting Chairs, and if those people are likely to switch.
I don't know who you think you'll get to switch. All the scummy folks (except mcmc) are on Chairs already.
-
Currently not voting for Chairs:
shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, ashersky, Robz
Ashersky has said he will not vote Chairs, Robz has said he would prefer Voltaire, and everyone else is on Voltaire. Do we think any of these players are likely to move to Chairs? If not, I should move to Mcmc, because I would prefer a Mcmc lynch to a voltaire lynch.
-
Thanks Ash. Whether you're town or scum, I appreciate that last part.
Also, typing when you aren't allowed to edit posts is just like talking, you say something and then you feel like an ass when you go back and read it. :-X
Umm yeah, I do like this game, but yeah, I'm wicked frustrated. I have been a lot this game, but these past few days, ever since the soft deadline that was so soft it melted. It's like we're not even trying here!
-
Currently not voting for Chairs:
shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, ashersky, Robz
Ashersky has said he will not vote Chairs, Robz has said he would prefer Voltaire, and everyone else is on Voltaire. Do we think any of these players are likely to move to Chairs? If not, I should move to Mcmc, because I would prefer a Mcmc lynch to a voltaire lynch.
I'll switch to avoid a no-lynch.
-
Currently not voting for Chairs:
shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, ashersky, Robz
Ashersky has said he will not vote Chairs, Robz has said he would prefer Voltaire, and everyone else is on Voltaire. Do we think any of these players are likely to move to Chairs? If not, I should move to Mcmc, because I would prefer a Mcmc lynch to a voltaire lynch.
From that list, I think shraeye's conviction for NOT voting chairs is as strong as mine.
Jimmmmm is your most likely switcher, given he's lurked so hard this game.
-
Jimmmm, if you're around, how do you feel about mccmsalot?
-
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
Chairs to Volt wouldn't be scummy if Volt flips scum. Why do you think someone would be scummy for doing that, if Volt ended up being scum?
I get why they'd be viewed as scummy if Volt were to flip town. But why would it be scummy if he flips scum? Even if a mafia gets town cred for lynching Volt, heck, I'd take that to get one scum out of the way.
-
Seems like this is necessary.
Vote: Voltaire
No idea what the vote count is. And actually, I told yuma I would let him know if there was a hammer. I'm a bit drunk though, help would be appreciated.
-
And honestly, if we're stuck at L-1 on both Volt and Chairs, is it better to hope someone hammers against their better judgement to avoid a no-lynch, or is it better to try to get another thing going while there might still be time.
also, is there still time? There might not be, but more people seem to be on right now than most nights this time.
-
^^^necessary to avoid chairs lynch, which I believe to be a lynch on town
-
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
Chairs to Volt wouldn't be scummy if Volt flips scum. Why do you think someone would be scummy for doing that, if Volt ended up being scum?
I get why they'd be viewed as scummy if Volt were to flip town. But why would it be scummy if he flips scum? Even if a mafia gets town cred for lynching Volt, heck, I'd take that to get one scum out of the way.
Because reading comprehension.
-
That's L-1, I believe.
-
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
Chairs to Volt wouldn't be scummy if Volt flips scum. Why do you think someone would be scummy for doing that, if Volt ended up being scum?
I get why they'd be viewed as scummy if Volt were to flip town. But why would it be scummy if he flips scum? Even if a mafia gets town cred for lynching Volt, heck, I'd take that to get one scum out of the way.
Because reading comprehension.
Who's the fool who can't read, me or you :( If it's me correct me please, I am missing something!
-
Wait, what? Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way? I'd think that would be equally scummy. Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will. Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?
Chairs to Volt wouldn't be scummy if Volt flips scum. Why do you think someone would be scummy for doing that, if Volt ended up being scum?
I get why they'd be viewed as scummy if Volt were to flip town. But why would it be scummy if he flips scum? Even if a mafia gets town cred for lynching Volt, heck, I'd take that to get one scum out of the way.
Because reading comprehension.
Who's the fool who can't read, me or you :( If it's me correct me please, I am missing something!
-
Right right, but saying "particularly if he flips town", means that they'd be scummy even if he DOESN'T flip town, just not as scummy.
Which I don't get, and I'm asking you to explain why.
-
Unofficial Vote Count:
Voltaire (6): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz (L-1)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
-
Don't screw up, Ash. Looks like it's your call.
-
Oh.
Well this is a dumb semantics argument then.
No, I don't think it'd be scummy if someone hammered scum. But I have no way to know that he's scum, and presumably neither you or Ash or anyone other than scum do either. I thought Ash was saying that town would have an easier time switching.
Maybe he isn't saying that, sorry. No hammering scum is not scummy. I just don't think Volt is scum.
-
I'll keep my particulars out of sight next time. They just dangle out there and make everything awkward and confusing.
-
I'll keep my particulars out of sight next time. They just dangle out there and make everything awkward and confusing.
Not to worry ;)
Do the right think, Ash. Hammer Volt. Don't hammer Chairs, he's just a poor little VT.
-
I think Ash is pretty clearly going to hammer Voltaire.
Glad we at least came to a lynch before the deadline, but I do not think this is the right one.
-
At least we have such a long Twilight before Yuma locks the thread, so Volt has time to claim even though he said he won't be on until tomorrow.
-
I'm willing to hammer Voltaire, as mentioned.
He's not around; is it worth waiting for him? I do think a claim is useful. Problem is that my time zone sucks for the deadline.
-
Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.
For reference, here's Voltaire's final post.
This is after a lot had happened, but before he reached L-1. This was also one of the scummier of his posts. I posted to that effect previously.
I'm ready to hammer.
-
I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
An hour before the deadline isn't much. It isn't enough time for you to really make any decision based on what he is going to claim?
I don't know, do you think anyone else can hammer if you can't? I think everyone's on one wagon or the other but you. And he may not be on in that time.
On the other hand, what if he's a powerrole? Shit, I don't know.
-
I will check in tomorrow evening regardless of there being a lynch or a no-lynch and will lock the thread then. So expect some twilight for you all.
I'm not sure if the Twilight matters to this at all, but this is what Yuma said.
-
Vote Count 1.17
{insert flavor}
Voltaire (5): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA (L-2)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, Snow, raerae, liopoil (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
lipoil (1): Robz
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
For reference, this was the last official vote count. I rechecked, and other than the UoS change to mcmcsalot and back, the wagons were the same until Robz cast his Voltaire vote.
Both are at L-1.
-
Our handling of this deadline, as a group, has been a complete clusterfuck.
Amusingly, Ash, the man with the hammer, has probably been one of the best about trying to work towards getting things done on time.
-
I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.
An hour before the deadline isn't much. It isn't enough time for you to really make any decision based on what he is going to claim?
I don't know, do you think anyone else can hammer if you can't? I think everyone's on one wagon or the other but you. And he may not be on in that time.
On the other hand, what if he's a powerrole? Shit, I don't know.
The only thing that would make me worry at all is your final line. PR.
So, imagine Volt's a PR. How does he react when he sees a lot of movement today and himself at L-2? Not like he did, in my estimation. No scramble, no worry, nothing. I just don't see it.
-
Let's talk it through.
Scenario A) Volt claims a power role.
Scenario B) Volt claims a poor little helpless Vanilla Townie
Do you hammer in both situations? Why?
If yes, I say just hammer and we'll all monday morning quarterback you on it later ::)
-
Ash, what's your problem with the Chairs case, other than the fact that "It's a convenience lynch"?
Basically, my reasoning for thinking Chairs is scum is that he scummily sheeped onto you during your self-voting period. He voted while saying things like "I'm going to be miffed if you guys are right and he's just doing crazy things", which indicates either a good deal of uncertainty, or knowledge that he's wrong.
He voted Voltaire initially, only saying "Gut alarm". He said he would back up his gut feeling with a re-read, but didn't. He unvoted while TA was tunneling, which tells me that he's aware of what others are thinking of his votes, and is concerned with not appearing towny. He unvoted immediately after TA said, "I'm uneasy about both of these lynches", saying "Perhaps TA is right and I'm tunneling." If your read was weak enough that all it took to get you off of it was another player saying "I'm uneasy about this", then why you were voting in the first place? I'd be willing to excuse this if there wasn't already votes on Voltaire, but I don't think town wants to be voting on a very weak read when they're the third player on a wagon.
Mainly, he has twice joined wagons without a good reason, and has expressed uncertainty about those wagons. If he were town, I think he wouldn't be joining wagons where he has such uncertainty about the person he's voting. If he was town, I suspect he would be more careful with voting for players who already had other players voting for them if he reads really were as weak as he's acted like they were.
I'm also concerned with his tone towards Voltaire in #751. I think it's unlike anything I've seen from Chairs in other games, and Chairs in other games has been town.
-
Also, Chairs' constantly shifting story on what his gut reads mean, where they came from, or now retroactively having a gut read on Voltaire 3 days before he voted, and soon after he'd posted that he found Voltaire towny and Robz scummy.
And despite his dodging the issue, he did vote for Voltaire right after Volt's Robz vote, despite his earlier reads that he still has yet to even address.
It's like he doesn't even remember why he has the reads that he does or when he came up with them! Almost like they aren't actually based on anything in particular!
-
I don't know about you guys, but I could make a fricking timeline of who I thought was scummy when, why, and if and when I changed my mind.
Hell, I could write you a book. That's not a threat, don't worry.
-
Vote Count 1.18
"Where did the weapon go?" asked The Cook. "Can't we use that as a piece of evidence and for fingerprints?" she asked The Cop.
The Cop agreed, but apparently no one had thought to grab the Candlestick from upstairs. The group left the Study and ran up the stairs to the room that yuma was found in.
"Where did it go?" asked Mrs. White. "It was here on the floor when Professor Plum found yuma."
"Are you sure it was in this room?" asked Yvette the Maid. "Let's look in the other rooms to make sure."
Professor Plum, Mrs. White, Mr. Boddy and Col. Mustard were left in the room as the others went to check the other rooms.
Each room was as empty of candlesticks as the other. Everyone was very confused and were even more confused when a loud sound of a door being slammed was heard.
Suddenly The Cook, The Cop, Mrs. Peacock and The Mechanic were locked inside one of the rooms.
"Let us out, let us out!" they shouted!
"Let us in, let us in!" shouted everyone else.
Voltaire (6): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz (L-1)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, raerae, liopoil, Snow (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Okay, I just read all of Voltaire's 105 posts. I kept as open a mind as possible.
Here's what I saw:
1) A number of posts I could put in the "towny" category. I see how some of you have a town read on the guy.
2) A few actions that could be calculated scum moves. The policy vote, which many have pointed out. The argument very early on that town is happy with a 1-for-1 trade using the Hider's death while the theory talk was happening. His vote hopping (Jimmmm to Robz to ash to chairs).
3) A lot of null reads. He even downgraded me to "null" after I unvoted myself.
I haven't re-read chairs. I will.
-
And I just read all of chairs's 46.
I came away with the realization that I have a town read on chairs for the same reason I have a town read on Snow. So I can either trust that, or not.
I think that when chairs put in the effort earlier in the game, it was clearly the work of a towny. The fact that he didn't finish his +/- system on everyone, after having started, is towny to me, because scum would be sure not to let that slip, since it looks bad. His VT claim looks terrible, it really does, but what sort of towny claims like that? Remember Eevee's true claim as compared to Galzria's fake claim?
I see some of what the anti-chairs faction sees as reasons to lynch the guy. But I have a town read there, and I'm pretty confident of it.
-
So the big question:
Scenario A) Volt claims a power role. Do you still vote for him?
Scenario B) Volt claims a poor little helpless Vanilla Townie. Do you still vote for him?
-
Answer: Vote: Voltaire
-
To further elaborate, I guess, given it is twilight:
Volt verified for us that if he is scum, he's claiming VT. So VT claims don't help him. But he knows he said that, perfectly setting himself up for a PR claim, if scum. So either way, no way to know.
I am interested in seeing what he claims, given he's lynched. But in the end, it would not have mattered to me. In choosing between the two, Voltaire has the better chance of being mafia. Chairs is a townread, and Volt is not.
-
I can't argue with your reasoning. I think I'd have done the same thing if I were in your position, just the other way around, but by the same logic.
Now that the suspense isn't killing me anymore, I'm going to sleep. Maybe I'll wake up to find out I was wrong. Here's hoping.
-
To further elaborate, I guess, given it is twilight:
Volt verified for us that if he is scum, he's claiming VT. So VT claims don't help him. But he knows he said that, perfectly setting himself up for a PR claim, if scum. So either way, no way to know.
I am interested in seeing what he claims, given he's lynched. But in the end, it would not have mattered to me. In choosing between the two, Voltaire has the better chance of being mafia. Chairs is a townread, and Volt is not.
yaay
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
No. No. It's D1. I refuse to name a scumteam D1. I won't because that's ridiculous. I reserve the right to be unsure about everything ESPECIALLY D1. Why did you only point out Volt? None of my reads were solid. All could be considered hedgey. Why only point the finger at Volt?
obviously i'm not one to talk about being helpfull, but i think there is a bit of a difference between naming a scum team and having a decent amount of scum reads/town reads. your null all over the board, also i dont like you insinuating i called a scum team, are we not allowed to have three scum reads D1 anymore...
-
Here is my shortened reads list
Scum:
Voltaire (most very likely),
Twitsed (definitely),
nkirbit (it's a pretty weak read)
people I'm suspicious of:
Jimmmm (I keep feeling uneasy when I think of him as town; but also when I think of him as scum),
Umbrage (null for now; if Twisted flips scum, his scumminess goes up)
Super-null:
Robz
liopoil (I was messin' around earlier)
Eevee
chairs (i haven't even read this case yet; I promise to if somebody gives me post numbers to check on)
people who I feel comfortable with:
raerae (she cool),
mcmcsalot (this last-hour suspicion really makes me skeptical...when I'm scum and my partner is picking up scumreads, but isn't in the limelight, I'm unlikely to also call him scum. But if some towny is picking up sideline suspicion, I'll fan those flames and call him scum too. The fact that 6-7 people find him suspicious and he's like the double double backup list as others pursue other stuff; it makes me lean town)
Town:
ashersky (I'm pretty confident in this)
swap eevee with twisted, and chairs with umbrage and we good. also robz be town
-
Well, that was unexpected.
I'll try to get more sleep this week so I can be more effective for town in D2.
-
NO-ONE HAMMER ME I AM HERE catching up
-
Answer: Vote: Voltaire
Well fuck.
I'm the trackerlante. For realz. Ash this up so that if I were able to claim beforehand, it would look scummy on me. I am not going to say ash is mafia but I will say he is the scummiest player this game. He also warned everyone not to switch from me to chairs. The chairs wagon wasn't going through.
Seriously ash got chairs to claim VT and hammered a PR with no chance to claim. SERIOUSLY. This is almost a 100% perfect day for scum.
Either ash is mafia or he is a horrible town player this game.
I'm not calling ash/chairs/??? but it looks way more likely than 24 hours ago.
It sounds like we'll get a long twilight so I'll happily talk about anything.
-
You're too late :(
Ash, you should have waited. Oh well, what's done is done, let's see how it turns out.
-
Well, that actually makes me think he's more likely to be scum.
-
To further elaborate, I guess, given it is twilight:
Volt verified for us that if he is scum, he's claiming VT. So VT claims don't help him. But he knows he said that, perfectly setting himself up for a PR claim, if scum. So either way, no way to know.
I didn't scramble because I was away all day Sunday with real life things. I knew the deadline was tomorrow (today), so I was planning on simply checking to see if there was a lynch or not (knowing I was a candidate) but knowing things would be slow because it was the weekend. I didn't anticipate anybody being as reckless or irresponsible as ash was.
Seriously. Either ash is mafia or he is horrible for you, town.
Reads, in order, scum to town:
ash
chairs
mcmc
Robz
TA
Jimmmm
Eevee
nkirbit
lio
raerae/shraeye
UmbrageOfSnow
-
Guyzzzzzzzz the chairs wagon was so hard to get through. :'(
I wish town the best. You really have your work cut out for you. I'll be following along in spirit.
-
Well, that actually makes me think he's more likely to be scum.
Who is the "he" there?
-
You! There are 3 scum, and only one trackervig. Scum would totally claim PR in this situation in twilight.
-
You! There are 3 scum, and only one trackervig. Scum would totally claim PR in this situation in twilight.
You will see I am so not lying in, what, two+ hours when yuma posts the flip? Seriously. The moment I read ash poison the well like he did, I was furious, because I knew even if I claimed, he'd still hammer me. A TOWN PR. HE WOULD HAMMER A CLAIMED TOWN PR. NO, HE WOULDN'T EVEN LET THE TOWN PR CLAIM, HE'D HAMMER WITH NO CLAIM.
Why do I think this happened? Because I think I accidentally outed myself as the trackerlante early in the day, and ash caught it. It's obvious I'm not the hider. I made that mistake in my math showing I wasn't the psychodoctor. I was doing the "play a tiny bit scummy as a town PR to not get mislynched" thing I do, and ash caught it I'm thinking. Then he poisoned the well so no-one would believe me and BOOM town just lynched a PR day 1.
-
Oh, if you are indeed town, you don't need to try to convince me, I'll believe the flip ;). And if you do flip town, I'll read everything you've said again knowing that you are town. But for now, I'm still hoping you're scum.
-
But for now, I'm still hoping you're scum.
Of course. But it's a false hope, just telling you now.
Again, I'll take any questions if people want/care to ask me anything. Otherwise, this'll be my last post as I don't want to clutter too much now that I'm dead. My reads are out there, don't tunnel them though, be smart about it. Scumhunt ash and when you're sure lynch the heck out of him. Don't forget to look at the final vote D1 on D2. Don't forget to look at the wagons.
-
THREAD LOCKED
-
THREAD UNLOCKED - Now I see yuma promised you a long twilight.
-
Yea, even I you are a town pr, I'm not too upset at ash. What he said was right, there was no reason for you not to claim a pr, if your scum you would claim and that doesn't make chairs more likely to be scum, so he still would have been right to hammer(right as in logical thinking you are scum)
We nicely had two huge wagons. Looking at a few things,
Volt flipping town:
Makes chairs, ash, myself look a bit scummy. And makes robz awkward jump off of volt just awkward.
Volt flipping scum:
Makes chairs, ash, myself look townie, and robz a bit scummy(it looks as though he last minute wanted to spare his partner.
Obviously there's more that's what I can remember
-
(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help. That or calling them useless. People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating. And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything. At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort. I should probably just shut up now. I post too fucking much anyway. I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)
Snow, you're playing a great game. Keep it up.
-
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
I guess how we proceed D2 should really depend on tonight's kill.
(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help. That or calling them useless. People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating. And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything. At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort. I should probably just shut up now. I post too fucking much anyway. I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)
Snow, you're playing a great game. Keep it up.
Agreed.
-
(Even though you think I'm scum)
-
Hopefully volt flips scum and scum is left in the group of eevee, nk(scummy off wagon), TA(scummy on wagon) Ash(I've been back and forth because his play has been very "ash beneficial" which ultimately could be town beneficial or scum beneficial)
-
Yea, even I you are a town pr, I'm not too upset at ash. What he said was right, there was no reason for you not to claim a pr, if your scum you would claim and that doesn't make chairs more likely to be scum, so he still would have been right to hammer
Uhhhh what? If volt is actually a town PR then he would be IC after claiming because of no counterclaim...
-
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
For some people. Yuma did it as the doctor in B2B. It's not necessarily a good or bad strategy, it's just a strategy.
And I didn't try to be ULTRASCUMMY or anything, I just every now and then ignored a question I didn't think was important. People tend to find not answering questions scummy. I didn't want to be so scummy I got lynched (and I don't think I was, scum drove my wagon hard). That's the only scummy thing I did.
I scum-hunted and tried my best during the day. Believe every single thing I said. I never lied.
(THIS post is trying to discount scum saying tomorrow "well we can't use Volt's reads, he said he was being scummy!" Don't fall for that)
-
Apologies for not mentioning you all game umbrage.
Since about your second post of the game you have engaged what I believe to be town speak; I feel extremely confident you are town simply because of the work and care you have for towns well being. This is fake able as scum, it is also hard and strenuous and tricky to attempt as a first timer. I can understand raerae and shraeye being worried if you are scum we don't actually have concrete reasons to have zero suspicion about you. I'm willing to take the 10% chance I'm wrong and your a really smart hard working scum player, so I will not be voting for you. That's my opinion.
-
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Not quite true - he can waste our twilight and distract us. Also, if he admitted to being scum then we could scumhunt some more during twilight, helping town PRs target the right people. Also he could be trying to get clues about the identity of the real trackervig.
-
Yea, even I you are a town pr, I'm not too upset at ash. What he said was right, there was no reason for you not to claim a pr, if your scum you would claim and that doesn't make chairs more likely to be scum, so he still would have been right to hammer
Uhhhh what? If volt is actually a town PR then he would be IC after claiming because of no counterclaim...
Yeah, people aren't thinking this through. Mcmc (ash if you're town):
D1 scenario:
Scum claims PR.
Gets counter-claimed.
Town lynches one claimant (let's just assume they get it wrong and lynch the real PR first)
mafia nks
on D2, that's 11 players alive, 3 of which are scum
town lynches the fakeclaiming mafia
mafia nks
on D3, that's 9 players left, 2 of which are scum. Town still has 2 PRs left.
That is WORST case scenario. There's a chance town lynches scum first, in which case D2 is 11 players left, 2 of which are scum, town has 2 PRs.
Even in this game, a 1 for 1 trade is good for town. And mafia can't fake-claim PRs in this setup! Only crazygambitscum will claim a PR.
Also he could be trying to get clues about the identity of the real trackervig.
*raises hand*
-
I informed yuma that we lynched someone.
There's zero reason to believe Voltaire right now; he could just be trying to goad the real trackerlante into claiming. So we'll see after the flip.
-
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Also, if he admitted to being scum then we could scumhunt some more during twilight, helping town PRs target the right people.
Scumhunt more! Just throw stuff away if I'm scum (I'm not!), don't waste this time!
-
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
For some people. Yuma did it as the doctor in B2B. It's not necessarily a good or bad strategy, it's just a strategy.
And I didn't try to be ULTRASCUMMY or anything, I just every now and then ignored a question I didn't think was important. People tend to find not answering questions scummy. I didn't want to be so scummy I got lynched (and I don't think I was, scum drove my wagon hard). That's the only scummy thing I did.
I scum-hunted and tried my best during the day. Believe every single thing I said. I never lied.
(THIS post is trying to discount scum saying tomorrow "well we can't use Volt's reads, he said he was being scummy!" Don't fall for that)
I'm certainly interested in going back to your words if you flip town, but mostly so I can figure out how we could have recognized town v town and not tunneled each other.
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Not quite true - he can waste our twilight and distract us. Also, if he admitted to being scum then we could scumhunt some more during twilight, helping town PRs target the right people. Also he could be trying to get clues about the identity of the real trackervig.
I hadn't thought of this.
-
There's zero reason to believe Voltaire right now; he could just be trying to goad the real trackerlante into claiming. So we'll see after the flip.
That would be pretty dumb seeing as we've already lynched him.
-
I'm certainly interested in going back to your words if you flip town, but mostly so I can figure out how we could have recognized town v town and not tunneled each other.
If you're town, then finding scum is actually fairly easily - scum likely hung back and decided late.
-
Volt, your reads list you posted a while back seemed driven by anger/frustration.
I get that, but sometime during twilight, think you could post your reads and rough reasons without the red haze of anger over them? Even if it's the same list, just one that talks about why you think people are scummy that isn't only about your lynch.
I know I've been arguing that a lot of votes on you wagon were scummy, so I'm interested where you think I'm right and where I'm not.
-
Volt, your reads list you posted a while back seemed driven by anger/frustration.
I get that, but sometime during twilight, think you could post your reads and rough reasons without the red haze of anger over them? Even if it's the same list, just one that talks about why you think people are scummy that isn't only about your lynch.
I know I've been arguing that a lot of votes on you wagon were scummy, so I'm interested where you think I'm right and where I'm not.
I have no idea where you think anger/frustration came into my reads. Here they are again, with lite explanation:
ash - perfectly set up my lynch. If I had been awake last night and claimed my real PR, he would have hammered me anyway. I stand by what I said - either ash is scum, or he's been easily the worst town player (see: all the stuff he did earlier in the day too)
chairs - I mean, it's my original scum read.
mcmc - has been very scummy lately (chiefly with his votes, but also no reads)
Robz - always an enigma
TA - was very towny at the start of the day, then I started to get worried by his seemingly being willing to hang back stance. If chairs is town, this makes TA look very scummy.
Jimmmm - needs to post more
Eevee - we're into town reads here, but Eevee is the weakest simply because TownEevee is WAY more helpful.
nkirbit - actually a bit of a null
lio - town
raerae/shraeye - town, documented elsewhere
UmbrageOfSnow - duh
-
Thanks Volt.
Maybe I just thought that because I'd feel that way? Projecting or something, sorry. It's also good to know that these reads are undriven by emotion, and if you flip town, that they'll be something that we know isn't direct manipulation (although you're still fallible of course, but it means you aren't manufacturing something from nothing if you're town.)
Robz/Liopoil: Why are you so sure he's scum still lying to us? I mean, it's possible, but it really seems so likely to you guys you don't even want to talk and get last minute thoughts out of him in the event that he isn't lying? You're that sure? Really?
-
Robz/Liopoil: Why are you so sure he's scum still lying to us? I mean, it's possible, but it really seems so likely to you guys you don't even want to talk and get last minute thoughts out of him in the event that he isn't lying? You're that sure? Really?
Seems pretty scummy to me, like they're trying to make us think they really believed he was scum. Seems unlikely given how he's reacted.
-
Well, that sucks if it's true. But I don't blame Ash for the hammer -- it was NOT a derphammer. He made it very clear what his time constraints were, and that was the last chance to be online before the deadline. He needed to hammer someone there, either you or chairs.
I'm more frustrated with Volt than Ash, if it's true. When he was online, Chairs was at 6 votes, and Volt at 4, with Robz, myself, and AShersky on neither wagon. All three of us were saying that we believed that Chairs was VT, and that we didn't want to lynch him. Should have been obvious that we'd volte Voltaire if necessary, and that Volt NEEDED to do something to stop it. He didn't do anything, and I would have encouraged Ash to hammer before he was gone rather than risking a no-lynch.
-
Should have been obvious that we'd volte Voltaire if necessary, and that Volt NEEDED to do something to stop it. He didn't do anything, and I would have encouraged Ash to hammer before he was gone rather than risking a no-lynch.
What the heck could I have done? I'd made a case on chairs! If people weren't buying it, fine. Then it's up to them to direct town to their top scumread! I did that.
-
Should have been obvious that we'd volte Voltaire if necessary, and that Volt NEEDED to do something to stop it. He didn't do anything, and I would have encouraged Ash to hammer before he was gone rather than risking a no-lynch.
What the heck could I have done? I'd made a case on chairs! If people weren't buying it, fine. Then it's up to them to direct town to their top scumread! I did that.
Made it clear you were a PR. There was no indication that you were.
That was Ash's last time online before deadline. He couldn't wait for a claim, and he needed to hammer someone.
-
Should have been obvious that we'd volte Voltaire if necessary, and that Volt NEEDED to do something to stop it. He didn't do anything, and I would have encouraged Ash to hammer before he was gone rather than risking a no-lynch.
What the heck could I have done? I'd made a case on chairs! If people weren't buying it, fine. Then it's up to them to direct town to their top scumread! I did that.
Made it clear you were a PR. There was no indication that you were.
That was Ash's last time online before deadline. He couldn't wait for a claim, and he needed to hammer someone.
Lies. At the start of the day I royally screwed up and outed myself. According to mcmc, he caught it. And I DID try to make it clear - it's better to lynch the VT!
And ash also (in addition to the "nobody believe Volt's real claim" thing) tried to paint my post as "anybody but me". It is VERY clear that chairs was my top scumread!
I'm done posting. People clearing weren't paying attention to my posts. Town ****ed up D1. Good luck going forward.
-
Robz/Liopoil: Why are you so sure he's scum still lying to us? I mean, it's possible, but it really seems so likely to you guys you don't even want to talk and get last minute thoughts out of him in the event that he isn't lying? You're that sure? Really?
I'm not! I was on the chairs wagon! I still think that voltaire is town. I'm just hoping he's scum, and his claim gave me a reason to hope. Of course if he's town he should tell us all his thoughts, and he has. His reads are very much out there.
-
voltaire, what's your flavor name?
-
voltaire, what's your flavor name?
Why does this matter? It'll flip in a few hours. Are you expecting counterclaims or something? After he's already lynched?
-
I mean,
1. What incentive would he possibly have to lie, Town or Scum?
2. What would this possibly tell us?
-
no, I'm thinking we can ponder this:
All players will be assigned a flavor name from the following:
1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock
This flavor name will be a character from the Movie Clue. One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
-
voltaire, what's your flavor name?
I'm The Cop.
-
Huh, I would've pegged the trackerlante role as Wadsworth.
-
Remember, there is only 1 meaningful connection. I'd assume he isn't it.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
No. No. It's D1. I refuse to name a scumteam D1. I won't because that's ridiculous. I reserve the right to be unsure about everything ESPECIALLY D1. Why did you only point out Volt? None of my reads were solid. All could be considered hedgey. Why only point the finger at Volt?
obviously i'm not one to talk about being helpfull, but i think there is a bit of a difference between naming a scum team and having a decent amount of scum reads/town reads. your null all over the board, also i dont like you insinuating i called a scum team, are we not allowed to have three scum reads D1 anymore...
Where did I do that?
-
voltaire, what's your flavor name?
I'm The Cop.
This should go without saying, but no one counterclaim him if he is lying. He is dead anyway.
-
Yea, even I you are a town pr, I'm not too upset at ash. What he said was right, there was no reason for you not to claim a pr, if your scum you would claim and that doesn't make chairs more likely to be scum, so he still would have been right to hammer
Uhhhh what? If volt is actually a town PR then he would be IC after claiming because of no counterclaim...
Yeah, people aren't thinking this through. Mcmc (ash if you're town):
D1 scenario:
Scum claims PR.
Gets counter-claimed.
Town lynches one claimant (let's just assume they get it wrong and lynch the real PR first)
mafia nks
on D2, that's 11 players alive, 3 of which are scum
town lynches the fakeclaiming mafia
mafia nks
on D3, that's 9 players left, 2 of which are scum. Town still has 2 PRs left.
That is WORST case scenario. There's a chance town lynches scum first, in which case D2 is 11 players left, 2 of which are scum, town has 2 PRs.
Even in this game, a 1 for 1 trade is good for town. And mafia can't fake-claim PRs in this setup! Only crazygambitscum will claim a PR.
Yea, I see what your saying, but there are actually 5 scenarios
if you are scum:
1) you claim, you get our real PR to counter claim you and he gets night killed. That sucks something awful
2) you claim, our real PR doesn't want to out himself, we don't lynch you. Not likely but another terrible situation
If you are town:
3) you claim, no counter claims so we save you but you are nk'ed. we lose our PR not that amazing of a deal especially if chairs is town.
4) you claim, scum counter claims we lynch you and then the scum and its 1 PR for 1 scum. Not likely to happen but good.
So if Ash let you claim we were going to do one of the following:
1) Lynch Scum and Lose a PR
3) Lynch (Town or Scum) and Lose a PR
If Ash doesn't let you claim, one of the following happens:
5) Lynch Town and Lose a PR
6) Lynch Scum
Best scenario is number 6, scenario 5 is potentially the worst but potentially equal to 3.
Lastly seeing as you were at L-1, 7 people think you are scum, it is more likely for scenarios 1 or 6 to occur, so it was a good call to not let you claim I think.
-
D1 Reads/Thoughts:
1. Robz - Pretty townie, don't understand the suspicion on him so far.
2. Liopoil - Suspicious but not acting like the scumlio I've seen so not sure where to go with that.
3. Twistedarcher - There are a lot of similarities here to Innovation TA. I know Volt cautioned against this but this game started when that was in full swing and the scum team was trouncing town so I feel like it's reasonable to consider TA coming in overconfident on his scum performance.
4. Shraeye - Always suspicious of how townie he is. I'm watching you, Wazowski. Always watching...
5. Eevee - Fully expect more participation out of him. Suspicious because he simply hasn't been as helpful as I expect Eevee to be.
6. Voltaire - Totally unsure. See the merits of shraeye's accusations but see some town here too.
7. UmbrageOfSnow - Null read, seems to throw towncred at people who agree, scumcred to those who don't, I don't assign the same towncred to that a lot of people seem to.
8. Jimmmm - Same as Eevee, expect more here.
9. Nkirbit - Can't remember much. Another null.
10. Chairs - My thoughts on him are clear
11. Mcmcsalot - Not a lot to go off of.
12. Ashersky - Townie, same boat as Robz
I think this is a really hedgy, unsure view of the alternative lynch to Chairs, that doesn't really tell us anything at all.
I agree with Mcmc's analysis that you really aren't saying all that much here, and that you have very few scum reads beyond "suspicions" that aren't putting yourself out there at all.
No. No. It's D1. I refuse to name a scumteam D1. I won't because that's ridiculous. I reserve the right to be unsure about everything ESPECIALLY D1. Why did you only point out Volt? None of my reads were solid. All could be considered hedgey. Why only point the finger at Volt?
obviously i'm not one to talk about being helpfull, but i think there is a bit of a difference between naming a scum team and having a decent amount of scum reads/town reads. your null all over the board, also i dont like you insinuating i called a scum team, are we not allowed to have three scum reads D1 anymore...
Where did I do that?
I said your reads were silly and that they were all null, TA agreed and said you have very few scum reads. You respond with the bolded statement, You brought it up and defended yourself like we wanted you to name scum teams. So in my reads when I actually had scum reads, I figure you must think thats considered naming a scum team. I don't like that you defended yourself like we wanted scum teams from you, all I asked for was some more clarification than null on everyone. Even my reads though not supported well are more useful than a big fat list of nothing.
-
3) you claim, no counter claims so we save you but you are nk'ed. we lose our PR not that amazing of a deal especially if chairs is town.
But if the hider knows exactly where the NK is going, they can increase their utility. (because worst-case for hider is hiding behind the NK target)
-
mcmc, that's false. You didn't ask for clarification you just flat out attacked my reads because the weren't as specific as you wanted them to be. I wasn't attacking your reads because I have discounted them. You said you were going to give reasons for them and that post conveniently disappeared. I was jumping from the extreme of saying everything I posted was null to the other extreme of calling a scumteam. I hadn't even taken you into consideration in that post and I apologize you felt as if I was pointing a finger at you. I won't make up reads just to please you. If I'm unsure of somebody that's what I'll put down. I won't stretch it to make them null with slight scum or null with slight town just to make you and TA happy.
-
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Not quite true - he can waste our twilight and distract us. Also, if he admitted to being scum then we could scumhunt some more during twilight, helping town PRs target the right people. Also he could be trying to get clues about the identity of the real trackervig.
I had not thought of this, and at first was like "oh yeah, good point. thanks townmember!"
BUT, I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this, as they have likely thought about whether they would tell the truth or troll during this long twilight. I'm bumping liopoil up to the top of "people I'm suspicious of"
-
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
This is a strategy that some people use, and I want to categorically state that it is a TERRIBLE idea. Purposefully playing scummy as townPR misleads your fellow townies who are trying to find scum during the day. This hurts the accuracy of town's lynches (which are the thing they have most control of), and can misdirect town's other PRs.
If all town members played a super-town game, then the PR won't actually have an increased chance of being NKed for acting towny. Additionally, I have (as scum) shot at scummy looking town members specifically because I thought they were playing the "act scummy as PR" game.
So doing this strategy misdirects town's lynches and PRs, and with smart scum, may actually INCREASE your chances of being NKed. Never ever ever never ever ever purposefully act scummy as a townPR.
-
I'm going to vaguely call these posts scummy. Not as scummy as liopoil's post, but scummy enough to be noteworthy.
-
I just every now and then ignored a question I didn't think was important. People tend to find not answering questions scummy.
-
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
This is a strategy that some people use, and I want to categorically state that it is a TERRIBLE idea. Purposefully playing scummy as townPR misleads your fellow townies who are trying to find scum during the day. This hurts the accuracy of town's lynches (which are the thing they have most control of), and can misdirect town's other PRs.
If all town members played a super-town game, then the PR won't actually have an increased chance of being NKed for acting towny. Additionally, I have (as scum) shot at scummy looking town members specifically because I thought they were playing the "act scummy as PR" game.
So doing this strategy misdirects town's lynches and PRs, and with smart scum, may actually INCREASE your chances of being NKed. Never ever ever never ever ever purposefully act scummy as a townPR.
If you end up flipping scum at end of game (I'm not saying you will, simply acknowledging the possibility exists at all) I'd like to revisit this to see if you'd say the same thing post-game.
Again, this is not me accusing you of anything, or even FOS or anything like that. I just think this is the kind of thing that scum might think differently on vs town, and given the nature of Mafia I'd like to discuss post-game to ensure I'm getting your honest opinion as a now-disinterested person (something you can't get mid-game).
-
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Not quite true - he can waste our twilight and distract us. Also, if he admitted to being scum then we could scumhunt some more during twilight, helping town PRs target the right people. Also he could be trying to get clues about the identity of the real trackervig.
I had not thought of this, and at first was like "oh yeah, good point. thanks townmember!"
BUT, I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this, as they have likely thought about whether they would tell the truth or troll during this long twilight. I'm bumping liopoil up to the top of "people I'm suspicious of"
this is kinda silly. I think about both alignment's motives regardless of my alignment. this is something I have thought up a longggg time ago too. I'll go dig up one of my old posts. This is from Mean Girls right after xeiron claimed town in twilight:
scum will/should always claim town in twilight. If he is indeed town, then I think yuma is scum together with either mail-mi or eevee.
In this game I was town. Okay, so he didn't claim PR, but it's the same idea: as scum, never give info to town during twilight, because they can still discuss.
-
The fact that you've said the same thing before does mitigate my statement.
-
why not? you said: "I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this". I just showed that I thought of this before I got my role PM.
-
why not? you said: "I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this". I just showed that I thought of this before I got my role PM.
Shraeye said it DOES mitigate his statement.
-
why not? you said: "I was realizing that scum are MUCH more likely to have thought of this". I just showed that I thought of this before I got my role PM.
Shraeye said it DOES mitigate his statement.
oh wow, duhh. I missread his post :P
So this is kind of interesting..... if volt is town, then the flavor name that's relevant isn't the tracker/vig's, and it also probably isn't the pschologist-detective either, because they would probably be the cop!
-
I feel like this needs pointing out.
We have two possible situations here:
A) Voltaire is scum, lying about being Tracker/Vigilante.
In this case, it's good that someone said the real one shouldn't claim, but when the flip happens, we obviously know we can't trust anything Volt said, it was all just pointless mindgames full of misdirection. So the twilight was worthless, and always would have been.
B) Voltaire is town, telling the truth.
In this case Robz and Liopoil have wasted time in twilight rather than Voltaire. Pointing out that if he were scum, he could be messing with us doesn't help if he is scum, because we'd all figure that out soon anyway, but it actually hurts us if he is town because we spent time arguing about it. And because it allowed Robz and Liopoil to make a decent amount of posts without contributing anything, but trying to look towny.
So either they don't help, or they waste town's time in what could have been a useful twilight. I'd agree with Liopoil that it always makes sense for scum to waste our time by fake-claiming, but I'd also argue that it always makes sense for town to take these claims as real until proven otherwise. Either we throw out the days where scum lied, or we waste all the days. I know which one is obviously better.
This twilight is a waste if Volt is scum, one way or another, but if he's town, it only becomes a waste if we don't believe him and don't take the opportunity to talk anything through while he's still around and this day is still fresh in our minds. Besides, how often is scum lynched on Day 1? 1/3 of the time? Seems like we should believe his claim and make use of the time as if it were true, and if he is lying, well we throw it out and we're right back where we were if we'd wasted the twilight anyway.
-
umbrage, what do you have in mind for us to discuss?
-
Umbrage, there one reason your wrong.
Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.
So noone can possibly be holding us back from having a productive twilight, other than volt deciding not to talk to us.
-
I don't have any particular agenda, and hey the flavorname thing you just brought up is something (I was typing my post when you posted that) but I more meant that it seemed like we were getting sidetracked by a waste of time as I was reading and thinking about the use of twilight so far.
Also, I'd like to say that I think this is another scummy move from Robz in particular.
I've been seeing a lot of things I think were scummy from him, but it seems most people (other than Chairs at one point, before his gut did a 180 for unexplainable reasons and I think TA at one point) seem to be finding Robz towny or null and not really addressing this other with their guts.
Let's talk about Robz. (Although "what did you have in mind for us to discuss" is kind of a weak thing to say in a game that we solve only through discussion. I mean, if we all wait around for someone to post an agenda, doesn't that just mean scum auto-wins? Is that what's been going on with all the lurking?)
-
Umbrage, there one reason your wrong.
Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.
So noone can possibly be holding us back from having a productive twilight, other than volt deciding not to talk to us.
Did you read my post?
1) I'm saying Robz and Liopoil helped to sidetrack our discussion. If you don't believe conversation can be manipulated and sidetracked,you don't pay enough attention to how debates/politics/diplomacy/Diplomacy/etc work.
2) This was a daystart game and he says he's a tracker/vigilante! What could he possibly know, other than his reads which he's posted? He was talking quite a bit, but what was he supposed to respond to in these last few hours?
3) My whole point is that trying to doubleguess whether he's town or not IS POINTLESS. You think he is scum. Fine. But if he is scum, well we weren't going to be any more productive in questioning him, post-morteming this day than we would be doing it at the start of Day 2. IF HE IS TOWN, we're missing that chance! This reads like you're so sure he's scum that you don't care about that chance?
How can you be so sure, based on your gut and a policy-vote?
-
More importantly, chairs, what is the point of you saying I'm wrong by arguing he is scum? My whole post was saying IT DOESN'T MATTER IF HE'S SCUM OR NOT.
-
I don't have any particular agenda, and hey the flavorname thing you just brought up is something (I was typing my post when you posted that) but I more meant that it seemed like we were getting sidetracked by a waste of time as I was reading and thinking about the use of twilight so far.
Also, I'd like to say that I think this is another scummy move from Robz in particular.
I've been seeing a lot of things I think were scummy from him, but it seems most people (other than Chairs at one point, before his gut did a 180 for unexplainable reasons and I think TA at one point) seem to be finding Robz towny or null and not really addressing this other with their guts.
Let's talk about Robz. (Although "what did you have in mind for us to discuss" is kind of a weak thing to say in a game that we solve only through discussion. I mean, if we all wait around for someone to post an agenda, doesn't that just mean scum auto-wins? Is that what's been going on with all the lurking?)
I don't think I did this at all. I was just saying, there is a good reason for Volt to continue to lie after being lynched--he could get someone who isn't paying a lot of attention to counterclaim him.
I don't know whether he is telling the truth or not. We will soon see.
We are of course free to discuss things. I'm not stopping anyone from discussing things.
-
But Robz, you're on a lot, why have you seemed so disinterested in contributing to discussion yourself?
-
Let me put it this way: Mcmcsalot defended you by saying you thought you were bad at town. Some of the players that have played with you think you don't post much as town but post a lot as scum. Someone else (TA?) said he thought you were trying to change your metagame or something.
If you want to help as town, why contribute so sparsely, and so often away from the central scum/not scum/what does scumminess really mean/etc type arguments?
I should go back and do a complete reread of you, but it seems like you mostly have slight, not terribly content-filled posts, and often about matters of policy rather than about the actual game and the hunt for scum. You do have some occasional sheepings, and that one post where, after days of people nagging you, you expanded on TA's case on Volt by basically restating it and alluding to other examples you never linked and never responded to me nagging you about not finding.
You did a lot to push the Voltaire wagon, without seeming to do much of anything. It seems talented, but not in a pro-town way.
-
Also, CHAIRS, why are you so sure Voltaire is scum? And why does you thinking that mean I'm wrong that we shouldn't bother talking about whether or not he is?
-
VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?
(And if you flip scum, I can spend the rest of the game secondguessing my secondgusses, yay!)
-
Also, CHAIRS, why are you so sure Voltaire is scum? And why does you thinking that mean I'm wrong that we shouldn't bother talking about whether or not he is?
I don't know what (post-twilight and his post-hammer claim) I said that made you think I'm sure Volt is scum at this point.
I am willing to suspend disbelief and take him at his word at this point. I'm just intrigued at the concept of twilight being used to tweak night actions/the next day (as the games I've been in have been no-twilight games, effectively).
-
VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?
Can you let me know what thoughts you want answers to?
Volt doesn't need any of us two believe him if he's town. He will flip, we will know, if he's town it's his job to talk and tell us everything he possibly can. Noone is stopping any discussion. So seeing as he isn't still posting/trying to be helpful I am guessing he is scum. I mean even the way he claimed, he spent the beginning of twilight talking about ash being bad and how we screwed up, town volt cares more about helping town now that he's dead than complaining about being lynched.
So you're just choosing to ignore, like, the 39,302 posts I gave after my hammer with my thoughts, reads, etc.? And my offer to answer any questions asked of me?
This kind of post by you is exactly why I get frustrated. I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't.
Ash and mcmc have been very anti-town. Don't know if it makes them scum, but it means they're making it harder for town to win.
-
Snow: In fact, see this:
I feel like at this point we should just assume that (since it's twilight) Volt's got no benefit to lying (we can't unhammer him, after all).
Volt: I'm not familiar with the "play a little scummy so I don't get mislynched" concept at all - is this normal?
I guess how we proceed D2 should really depend on tonight's kill.
(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help. That or calling them useless. People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating. And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything. At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort. I should probably just shut up now. I post too fucking much anyway. I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)
Snow, you're playing a great game. Keep it up.
Agreed.
If you're interpreting that as "NYUU VOLT IS A LYING MCLIARSON" then I don't know what to say.
-
Forgive me Chairs, I had you confused with MCMCSALOT'S post.
-
VOLTAIRE: Can you chime in on my thoughts here, so if you flip town, I have a source of known non-manipulated feedback on these thoughts I just posted, regarding Robz and Chairs and the theory of twilight?
Ah, I see the second part of your sentence is the question.
Yes, Robz is scummier for it. You'll note I voted for Robz during D1. If we had another chance to vote I wouldn't mind lynching Robz. And your theory of twilight is correct, and I posted it above - ignore everything I say if I flip scum, but when I flip town be glad to had the chance to talk to me!
-
Revised to account for my own derp:
More importantly, MCMCSALOT, what is the point of you saying I'm wrong by arguing he is scum? My whole post was saying it doesn't matter if Volt is scum or not.
-
Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?
Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?
A) Robz
B) Mcmcsalot
C) Chairs
D) TwistedArcher
E) Ashersky
F) Shraeye
I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward. Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.
And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)
-
Let me put it this way: Mcmcsalot defended you by saying you thought you were bad at town. Some of the players that have played with you think you don't post much as town but post a lot as scum. Someone else (TA?) said he thought you were trying to change your metagame or something.
Mcmc is correct. I post a lot as town and a lot as scum, and indeed, my post count is above average here. Don't know about that TA thing.
If you want to help as town, why contribute so sparsely, and so often away from the central scum/not scum/what does scumminess really mean/etc type arguments?
I am not contributing sparsely. I have been expressing opinions on people for whom my opinions are concrete enough to be worthy of expression. I have given opinions on Volt and chairs and ashersky and liopoil. My thinking is that lurkers should have been our targets.
I should go back and do a complete reread of you, but it seems like you mostly have slight, not terribly content-filled posts, and often about matters of policy rather than about the actual game and the hunt for scum. You do have some occasional sheepings, and that one post where, after days of people nagging you, you expanded on TA's case on Volt by basically restating it and alluding to other examples you never linked and never responded to me nagging you about not finding.
I don't remember people nagging me for days; I remember you nagging me. And it wasn't for days; when I read that you wanted an explanation, I gave one.
When I do it, it's not sheeping.
Long posts are actively unhelpful.
You did a lot to push the Voltaire wagon, without seeming to do much of anything. It seems talented, but not in a pro-town way.
Okay.
-
Added my thoughts to your quote.
Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?
Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?
A) Robz - played with in every game except the one he modded. His play has been similar to before. Those times he was scum 2 times, town 1 time
B) Mcmcsalot - never played with
C) Chairs - played with once, has been scummier this game
D) TwistedArcher - never played with
E) Ashersky - played with a long time ago. I don't remember him being the kind of person to go "I AM A MAFIA GOD" like he did here.
F) Shraeye - never played with
I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward. Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.
And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)
Sorry that's not very helpful!
-
Added my thoughts to your quote.
B) Mcmcsalot - played with once, he was very very scummy but was town.
Corrected mcmc
-
Volt, you've played games with most of these players before, right?
Do you think you could briefly summarize how you think their play in this game compares to other games?
A) Robz
B) Mcmcsalot
C) Chairs
D) TwistedArcher
E) Ashersky
F) Shraeye
I realize that's a lot, but it would really help me going forward. Just a sentence or two would be great, because I don't feel like I've got a good grasp of meta arguments, and anything anyone says during the game is of course suspect.
And that's a thought for those that want an agenda: let's discuss our thoughts on people as compared to earlier games with Voltaire here, so we can have him as an unbiased commenter on our thoughts (presuming he flips town of course.)
Volt is not, by the way, any sort of expert on veteran play. He was in like two games before he disappeared.
I have played every game.
Eevee has played almost every game.
Jimm, shraeye, raerae, ashersky, and mcmcsalot have played a whole lot of games.
Liopoil has played a decent amount.
Everyone else is relatively new.
-
Well yeah, I'm getting that he might not have much insight now. But my reason for asking Volt wasn't that I was assuming he was an expert, it was that in a few hours we'll know if he was town or not, and if he is town, it means his opinions are at the very least not scum manipulation: something I can't be absolutely sure of with anyone.
So yeah, that wasn't as helpful as I was hoping, but I don't think it was pointless to ask.
-
Well yeah, I'm getting that he might not have much insight now. But my reason for asking Volt wasn't that I was assuming he was an expert, it was that in a few hours we'll know if he was town or not, and if he is town, it means his opinions are at the very least not scum manipulation: something I can't be absolutely sure of with anyone.
So yeah, that wasn't as helpful as I was hoping, but I don't think it was pointless to ask.
You seem to me really confident that Volt will flip town. And maybe at this point you are trying a bit too hard to look like Mr. Townie.
-
Sorry you think I'm being actively unhelpful, Robz, but I have referred back to my big summary of the case on Volt like 6 or 7 times already when I need to find something or review a sequence of events. I've found it much easier than searching the thread.
I put it out there because I thought other people might have similar needs and it would save town quite a bit of work. To my mind, we all should have had the need to revist the case on Volt and some particulars of it before lynching him, but if everyone thinks that is unhelpful, whatever, I'll keep notes on my computer, but I really don't see why that's so bad. It's one post to skip past if you don't want it, rather than 5 pages of more discussion trying to find something when we argue about when someone said what.
-
Sorry for trying too hard.
You're right, it would be much more pro-town to NOT try instead.
-
that's not what robz is saying at all.
-
You seem to me really confident that Volt will flip town. And maybe at this point you are trying a bit too hard to look like Mr. Townie.
Also, you don't remember that whole series of posts I made about why I think it's correct play for us to assume the lynched party is town, even though it's also correct play for scum to claim town until the flip?
-
Sorry you think I'm being actively unhelpful, Robz, but I have referred back to my big summary of the case on Volt like 6 or 7 times already when I need to find something or review a sequence of events. I've found it much easier than searching the thread.
I put it out there because I thought other people might have similar needs and it would save town quite a bit of work. To my mind, we all should have had the need to revist the case on Volt and some particulars of it before lynching him, but if everyone thinks that is unhelpful, whatever, I'll keep notes on my computer, but I really don't see why that's so bad. It's one post to skip past if you don't want it, rather than 5 pages of more discussion trying to find something when we argue about when someone said what.
I mean, I don't want to sound like I am coming off too strongly against you here. I do appreciate the effort you are putting in.The fact that you are driving conversation and asking people questions and holding them accountable is mega, mega, mega great.
But just be careful about giving your views over and over again at such great length. The reasons not to do this are 1) It's very hard to re-read later, it's just like a lot of physical work for other people to do 2) It makes it harder to form an opinion on you later, when you have had like a 100 diffeent opinions by virtue of being so, so active 3) You will become depressed when you find out your 20,000 word essay was totally wrong. This last thing has happened to me a lot.
-
Sorry for trying too hard.
You're right, it would be much more pro-town to NOT try instead.
It's not pro-town to try less hard, but it is pro-town to economize a bit more. That's all.
I agree that it's fine to milk Volt for all he is worth now, and I don't know why I got pegged as trying to silence this debate.
-
3) You will become depressed when you find out your 20,000 word essay was totally wrong. This last thing has happened to me a lot.
Regarding this last point, I spent quite a lot of words on Ashersky, and at this point I'm pretty null on him. I mean, I think some things are suspicious, but he's been pretty pro-town in a lot of ways lately. I certainly wouldn't vote for him now, although I'd have loved to lynch him when I wrote them.
I write a lot, it isn't depressing.
Although I guess I can add a 4 to your list though
4) It's depressing when you feel like people missed your point got distracted by other things.
I think part of the problem is that I have a lot to say, and it seems frustrating to me that no one other than Ashersky does too.
Yeah, I'll try to work on being shorter, but brevity is not my strong suit. (Shocker!)
-
Also FYI, I have authorized the mafia quicktopic to be unlocked beginning at twilight--once it has been firmly established that a hammer vote was indeed cast--allowing them to start their communication earlier than usual.[/color][/b]
Here is some food for thought
-
Also FYI, I have authorized the mafia quicktopic to be unlocked beginning at twilight--once it has been firmly established that a hammer vote was indeed cast--allowing them to start their communication earlier than usual.[/color][/b]
Here is some food for thought
Oh, what??? Wow. Okay, I didn't realize what that meant first time I read it.
If this is the case, I actually do recommend that we all stop talking. Scum have a major discussion advantage right now.
-
Also FYI, I have authorized the mafia quicktopic to be unlocked beginning at twilight--once it has been firmly established that a hammer vote was indeed cast--allowing them to start their communication earlier than usual.[/color][/b]
Here is some food for thought
:o
-
Good idea, let's only communicate in emoticons.
:-\
-
:-X
-
actually, hold up, I think it's fine to talk. I mean, in blitz scum often have daychat, and we talk lots anyway!
-
actually, hold up, I think it's fine to talk. I mean, in blitz scum often have daychat, and we talk lots anyway!
And it's their greatest asset!
-
actually, hold up, I think it's fine to talk. I mean, in blitz scum often have daychat, and we talk lots anyway!
What's "Blitz", anyway? ???
-
Robz is correct in that all we say is helping scum actively discuss in their QT.
If volt is telling the truth, that's unfortunate. But his twilight explanations aren't convincing. Plenty of holes I won't mention until D2, assuming I'm alive.
There's plenty here to analyze without helping scum out any further.
I do want to say one thing: scum will fake claim in twilight, but generally speaking, no one will counterclaim a dead man. It's a Hail Mary play, and they're looking for the towny that say "oh now I'm even more convinced he's scum!" since that's a clue.
And Volt, you may be frustrated, but can you really call me "the worst town" in the game? If you aren't lying, you managed to get lynched as a strong PR. That seems way worse than my play.
If you want to "be scummy as PR to not get lynched," take a page out of my D1, man.
-
Robz is correct in that all we say is helping scum actively discuss in their QT.
If volt is telling the truth, that's unfortunate. But his twilight explanations aren't convincing. Plenty of holes I won't mention until D2, assuming I'm alive.
There's plenty here to analyze without helping scum out any further.
I do want to say one thing: scum will fake claim in twilight, but generally speaking, no one will counterclaim a dead man. It's a Hail Mary play, and they're looking for the towny that say "oh now I'm even more convinced he's scum!" since that's a clue.
And Volt, you may be frustrated, but can you really call me "the worst town" in the game? If you aren't lying, you managed to get lynched as a strong PR. That seems way worse than my play.
If you want to "be scummy as PR to not get lynched," take a page out of my D1, man.
Take the fact that I know the first bold is wrong.
Now think about the second bold part.
You see why I have a derp :P derp opinion of you.
-
I can't argue with your reasoning. I think I'd have done the same thing if I were in your position, just the other way around, but by the same logic.
Now that the suspense isn't killing me anymore, I'm going to sleep. Maybe I'll wake up to find out I was wrong. Here's hoping.
Wait, why isn't the suspense killing you anymore? We're still waiting for Voltaire to flip.
-
If you aren't lying, you managed to get lynched as a strong PR. That seems way worse than my play.
Gee, I wonder how that happened.
Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy. I mean, horribly scummy. Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.
2) Scum would absolutely claim Tracker/Vig if they were going to die, so they could find the real one. Anyone who responds to a tracker/vig claim with "wait, if you are the real one, don't counter claim and let's just lynch this one" would be burnt at the stake. Lynching a claimed PR without a counter just makes no sense. So how does scum out the only PR that actually hurts them? By fakeclaiming it.
3) We should lynch "person who is the option other than me" is not a great statement to be making.
The other way to look at it is that wagons that are hard to lynch tend to be scum. I don't know if that's still true, but it used to be. Generally, you aren't getting 100% town wagons, so without scum on board, folks don't get lynched. If scum just stays away from scum buddies, which is easy on D1 when there isn't a clear slip, lynches don't go smoothly.
-
I am here. Flip is on its way
-
Day 1 Final Vote Count
The four guests were stuck inside one of the upstairs rooms. There was no getting out. The four guests used The Cop's flashlight to search through the room.
"I have heard that old mansions like this had secret passageways," said Mrs. Peacock. "Maybe we should search for one."
"Good idea," said The Mechanic.
The four players wandered around the room tapping on walls and checking for secret passageways.
The Cop made his way over to the fireplace. He picked up a photograph on the mantle and muttered under his breath, "This is interesting." He took out his notebook and wrote a few sentences. He put back the picture and suddenly two things happened at once.
First, a secret passageway opened up near the fireplace. Second, a trap door opened beneath the feet of The Cop and he fell to his death. The rumble of the secret passageway also knocked the picture from the mantle into the gapping whole in the floor. It too fell, never to be seen again.
The other three guests in the room were stunned to silence... quite the feat for Mrs. Peacock. However, she noticed lying on the ground The Cop's notebook.
She picked it up and read out loud from its last page. "I believe I have seen both the face and the hands of the murderer. I think I have all the Clue's I need. If I could just get the last shred of evidence--the murder weapon--perhaps I would be able to catch the murderer red handed."
Voltaire (7): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz, ashersky
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, raerae, liopoil, Snow (L-1)
Voltaire The Cop has been lynched. He was the Town Tracker/Vigilante.
All night actions are due to me Wednesday, July 24 by noon forum time. Day 2 will begin sometime there after when I can get access to Internet. (thanks again for everyone being patient!)
Keep in mind that in accordance with rule 4 posted in the Ruleset, all players are required to:
PM me at the end of a day to confirm that they acknowledge the start of night. If a player has not responded to this after 24 hours, then a PM will be sent asking for acknowledgement. If still no PM has been received after 48 hours, the start of day will be delayed and a replacement for the missing player(s) will be begun.
The Tread is now Locked.
-
Day2 Start
After paying their respects the three guests decided to wander into the secret passageway that The Cop had opened for them.
"Well somebody has got to break the ice, and it might as well be me," Mrs. Peacock said as they wandered down the dark corridor. "I never liked The Cop. He was far too conceited. I mean... he actually thought he could solve this series of murders. Like he could solve it! The only way this can be solved is if J. Edgar Hoover himself came and performed the investigation!"
"Please be respectful of the dead," said The Mechanic. As he said that they saw a glimmer of light.
Meanwhile Professor Plum, Mrs. White, Mr. Boddy and Col. Mustard were still searching for the Candlestick. Unaware that The Cop had died.
With a flash of inspiration Col. Mustard looked up. He asked to borrow matches from Professor Plum. "I think I know where the candlestick might be," he said. He lit a match and raised it up above his head. In the faint light the group saw a large chandelier. Who has a large chandelier in a bedroom? Rrenaud, that is who. But more importantly on the chandelier was the Candlestick. "Aha!" shouted Col. Mustard "the murder must have put the Candlestick up here to hide it. It was a very clever spot and only the brightest fellow would have thought of it!"
He used Professor Plum's back to reach for the Candlestick. "Ah! My back!" shouted Professor Plum "No body should be in this position."
Col. Mustard grabbed the Candlestick and lit it lighting up the room. Seconds later a picture on the wall exploded. And out stepped Mrs. Peacock, The Mechanic and Mr. Boddy.
Before anyone had a chance to say a word the windows blew open, the Candlestick's light was blown out. Everyone panicked. Mrs. Peacock tripped over Professor Plum who was still kneeling on the ground.
And then there was a tinkling sound, followed by a crumbling sound, followed by a whooshing sound, followed by a painful sound, followed by a silent sound.
Col. Mustard, after a moment, relit the Candlestick. On the ground were two dead bodies, crushed beneath the weight of the chandelier.
shraeye, (Professor Plum) the Vanilla Townie and UmbarageOfSnow, (Mrs. Peacock), The Hider were killed in the night.
Day2 will end in 10 days, August 3rd at 5 pm forum time.
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
I will be back full time on Saturday, until then EFHW and Jorbles will continue to provide vote counts.
Thread unlocked
-
And so the proof of you hider plan rests in the (plum) pudding.
-
Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?
-
1. Robz
2. raerae
3. liopoil
4. twistedarcher
5. shraeye
6. Eevee
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm
10. nkirbit
11. chairs
12. mcmcsalot
13. ashersky
Mrs. Peacock was #13.
1 = Jimm, 2 =nkirbit, 3= chairs, 4 = mcmc, 5= ash, 6=robz, 7=raerae, 8=liopoil, 9 =TA, 10 = Shraeye, 11=Eevee, 12 = Jimmm (skipping Volt, who was dead, and UoS), 13=nkirbit
-
Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?
13 from snow is snow. Skip one is Jimmmm?
-
Did he remember to skip the dead?
-
You just have to laugh, really.
This could be good though. So who was he going to hide behind? Phone posting for the next few hours, so it's hard for me to check. Actually if someone can please quote the plan and what umbrage said please do.
-
"If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player."
If UoS followed this, he would arrive at Nkirbit.
Nkirbit can't be the vig, either. I'm comfortable voting based on just this.
Vote: Nkirbit
-
Player Roster
1. Robz
2. raerae
3. liopoil
4. twistedarcher
5. shraeye
6. Eevee
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm
10. nkirbit
11. chairs
12. mcmcsalot
13. ashersky
1. Col. Mustard
2. Professor Plum
3. Mrs. White
4. Wadsworth the Butler
5. The Mechanic
6. The Cop
7. Mr. Green
8. Miss Scarlett
9. Yvette the Maid
10. The Singing Telegram Girl
11. The Cook
12. Mr. Boddy
13. Mrs. Peacock
Oh, also
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
TA is right. If he followed the plan, he hid behind kermit.
Vote: kermit
-
Oh, also
If I'm the Hider, each night I will take the list of players, in the order listed in the OP, and starting from my own name, count down the number that is next to my flavour name in the second OP, skipping myself, anyone who's dead, and anyone I've already hidden behind, unless that's everyone in which case that will reset. Whichever name I land on, I will hide behind that player.
oh, PPE: Raerae did it for me.
Vote: Nkirbit
-
vote: nkirbit
-
That's L-2.
-
Stop you fools. Maybe, but hold on
-
I don't get it. When I count down 13 from snow, skipping Voltaire twice since he is dead, I get shraeye
-
I don't get it. When I count down 13 from snow, skipping Voltaire twice since he is dead, I get shraeye
You only have to skip Voltaire once -- Snow is below Voltaire.
-
Oh I see how you get nkirbit, you are counting down literally. I am counting down the other way, as in countdown toward 1.
Who is right?
-
It matters which you count down. Are you sure me met down the page, and not count down toward 1?
Not being disagreeable, just want to be 100% sure on this.
-
The count. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Player Roster
1. Robz 6
2. raerae 7
3. liopoil 8
4. twistedarcher 9
5. shraeye 10
6. Eevee 11
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm 1 12
10. nkirbit 2 13
11. chairs 3
12. mcmcsalot 4
13. ashersky 5
-
He must have miscounted somehow. Robz way doesn't make sense either, since we know shraeye wasn't scum.
-
He must have miscounted somehow. Robz way doesn't make sense either, since we know shraeye wasn't scum.
My way DOES make sense because shraeye is dead. Mafia shot shraeye and umbrage his behind him.
Possibly. I'm not even saying that's what it is. I just want to be thorough here.
-
Good point, Robz. Wasn't there conversation on which way to count? Wasn't Jimmmmm involved? Looking for that now.
Unvote in case we're wrong.
-
Perhaps he forgot to skip Voltaire and ended up on jimm? That would be the most plausible mistake.
-
He must have miscounted somehow. Robz way doesn't make sense either, since we know shraeye wasn't scum.
My way DOES make sense because shraeye is dead. Mafia shot shraeye and umbrage his behind him.
Possibly. I'm not even saying that's what it is. I just want to be thorough here.
Oh, yeah. That is a possibility.
-
The count. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Player Roster
1. Robz 6
2. raerae 7
3. liopoil 8
4. twistedarcher 9
5. shraeye 10
6. Eevee 11
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm 1 12
10. nkirbit 2 13
11. chairs 3
12. mcmcsalot 4
13. ashersky 5
This is how we explained it, repeatedly.
I don't think I understand Robz's alternate counting method. Robz, could you lay it out for me?
-
Good point, Robz. Wasn't there conversation on which way to count? Wasn't Jimmmmm involved? Looking for that now.
Unvote in case we're wrong.
I have to assume it was brought up and handled, I just can't look right now because I am on my phone on a bus. But please multiple people check. I will check later. It's just a problem because both ways make sense. Unluckily.
-
For what it's worth, I interpreted counting down as 1...2...3... Etc. but it's possible that others interpreted differently
This is why I wanted to do the first plan where you go right below. Much easier to not screw up.
-
The count. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
Player Roster
1. Robz 6
2. raerae 7
3. liopoil 8
4. twistedarcher 9
5. shraeye 10
6. Eevee 11
7. Voltaire
8. UmbrageOfSnow
9. Jimmmm 1 12
10. nkirbit 2 13
11. chairs 3
12. mcmcsalot 4
13. ashersky 5
This is how we explained it, repeatedly.
I don't think I understand Robz's alternate counting method. Robz, could you lay it out for me?
Just starting counting the other way. So Eevee is 1, shraeye 2, etc
-
This is glorious, by the way. Absolutely worth it.
-
If you think he did the plan, kill nkirbit, then lynch Robz tomorrow. If you think it's possible your PERFECT plan might have had a glitch, then we can just ignore the Hider death and move on.
-
This is glorious, by the way. Absolutely worth it.
You mean the hider plan?
I think that A) it was a good plan, and B) I'm scumhunting as we discuss this, aren't you?
-
This is glorious, by the way. Absolutely worth it.
You mean the hider plan?
I think that A) it was a good plan, and B) I'm scumhunting as we discuss this, aren't you?
I mean the hider plan. And I mean glorious for me, in a sarcastic asshole way.
-
The way Jimmmm described the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit.
UoS saw the plan, quoted it, agreed with it, then bolded his agreement. So he was clearly aware of Jimmm's original plan, which stated, with examples, that we would go down the list but up in numbers. He did examples to prove this.
UoS noticed these posts, quoted them, agreed with them. He knew which way the plan wanted him to go.
I'm confident UoS hid behind Nkirbit, and Nkirbit is scum. My vote will remain there.
-
Hmmm, I still think it's nkirbit, but wow, this could easily have been avoided...
-
For raerae, it was TA and I who argued about the semantics of "count down" in the plan.
I said that one could include themselves in the count, or count up the list, as Robz mentioned. We ended that argument with TA's assertion that you do NOT include yourself and you count downward, so toward the bottom of the list.
Not to say confusion can't still reign supreme.
-
Okay then good. That makes me fairly confident it's nkirbit. I do not believe that umbrage would execute the plan wrongly. He was too into this game.
Lets let everyone weigh in first before a quicklynch, yes?
-
The way Jimmmm described the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit.
UoS saw the plan, quoted it, agreed with it, then bolded his agreement. So he was clearly aware of Jimmm's original plan, which stated, with examples, that we would go down the list but up in numbers. He did examples to prove this.
UoS noticed these posts, quoted them, agreed with them. He knew which way the plan wanted him to go.
I'm confident UoS hid behind Nkirbit, and Nkirbit is scum. My vote will remain there.
Can you quote this for the rest of us? I'm having a hellova time finding it as spelled out as you say it is.
-
For raerae, it was TA and I who argued about the semantics of "count down" in the plan.
I said that one could include themselves in the count, or count up the list, as Robz mentioned. We ended that argument with TA's assertion that you do NOT include yourself and you count downward, so toward the bottom of the list.
Not to say confusion can't still reign supreme.
Glad I wasn't making all of that up.
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
-
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
-
So this is where ash points out potential flaws in the plan.
And this is just one of UoS' responses to and regarding Ash. I think it's pretty safe to assume he followed the plan going 1-13 and not 13-1 as most people assumed.
So because Mafia members are magic, they will manipulate the flips or what? Your argument makes, as always, 0 sense if you actually think about it, other than that you think ALL PLANS ARE BAD, which is inherently stupid.
Ash, for what it's worth, I understand your concerns but looking at the above makes me confident UoS followed the plan as it was understood and kermit is scum.
Intent to vote when everybody has chimed in.
-
nkirbit: are you going to be mislynched if we follow the plan?
-
The plan clearly wasn't followed. If it was, I wouldn't be in this situation.
-
I'm down with an nkirbit lynch.
-
Im down with the nk lynch as well.
-
If you're going to lynch me, do it tonight instead of waiting 3 days. Either do it and get on with the game, or stop doing it so we can get scumhunting.
-
If you're going to lynch me, do it tonight instead of waiting 3 days. Either do it and get on with the game, or stop doing it so we can get scumhunting.
I agree.
Vote: nkirbit
-
Vote Count 2.1
The ten guests helped carry the two bodies--The Cop's could never be recovered as it feel down a deep and horrible chasm--to the study. But when they arrived they were in for a surprise.
Yvette the Maid and The Singing Telegram Girl stopped dead in their tracks dropping Mrs. Peacock on the floor.
"What are you staring at?" asked The Cook.
"Nothing," said Yvette the Maid.
"Well who is there?" asked Mrs. White.
"Nobody," said The Singing Telegram Girl.
"What do you mean?" demanded The Mechanic.
"Nobody. No body, that's what we mean. There is no body," said Yvette the Maid.
"I am right here beside you!" said Mr. Boddy.
"No! There is no body. yuma's body is gone!" said The Singing Telegram Girl.
nkirbit (4): Twistedarcher, liopoil, chairs, Jimmmmm (L-2)
Not voting: raerae, Robz888, ashersky, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Eevee
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Day 2 ends August 3rd at 5 pm forum time .
-
If you're going to lynch me, do it tonight instead of waiting 3 days. Either do it and get on with the game, or stop doing it so we can get scumhunting.
If we're so wrong, why wait for us to start the scumhunting?
Does anybody see a reason to carry this day on or can we end it this soon?
-
I think we can just end it. vote: nkirbit
-
Intent to hammer. Kermit, anything more to say?
-
vote: nkirbit
I'll do it.
-
That ties me with Insomniac for most hammers, btw.
-
That ties me with Insomniac for most hammers, btw.
NOONE CARES**grumble**Iwasgonnahammer**grumble**
-
Robbed me of my first. Thanks.
-
Poor Nkirbit. I can't imagine someone having a worse day in mafia.
-
Poor Nkirbit. I can't imagine someone having a worse day in mafia.
Lol.
-
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
-
Vote Count 2.2
"Maybe he wasn't dead?" asked Mr. Boddy.
"He was! Or at least Professor Plum thought he was," said Mrs. White.
"We should have made sure!" said Mr. Green.
"How?" asked multiple people.
"By cutting off his head!" shouted Col. Mustard.
At that everyone went quiet until the silence was broken by Miss Scarlet.
"Uh, is there a little girl's room in the Hall?" she asked Yvette the Maid.
"Oui oui, Madame."
"No, I just wanna powder my nose."
nkirbit (6): Twistedarcher, liopoil, chairs, Jimmmmm, Robz888, ashersky (L-2)
Not voting: raerae, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Eevee
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch.
Enjoy your twilight!
-
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
Note how ash here says psychologist, without considering detective.
If we held this to the standards that Ash held EFHW's "scumslip" in Innovation, this definitely looks like a "copslip" to me.. knowing that a psych is in the game, not a detective.
Now, I didn't think EFHW's scumslip was one, and it turns out it wasn't. But this is coming from Ash, who sees slips everywhere.
-
Poor Nkirbit. I can't imagine someone having a worse day in mafia.
Well, the blitz thing was 100% my fault. Sorry Jimm, that's on me.
It was rough reading this, though. I was already feeling like absolute crap about what happened in Blitz. I was already pretty burnt out and tired of mafia.. I just didn't have the desire to fight this after fucking up there.
Blitz was entirely my fault.. this was entirely unlucky.
-
Poor Nkirbit. I can't imagine someone having a worse day in mafia.
Well, the blitz thing was 100% my fault. Sorry Jimm, that's on me.
It was rough reading this, though. I was already feeling like absolute crap about what happened in Blitz. I was already pretty burnt out and tired of mafia.. I just didn't have the desire to fight this after fucking up there.
Blitz was entirely my fault.. this was entirely unlucky.
Sucks, man :-\ I feel for you, even though I'm happy (for us as town) that we're flipping you, even if we did lose hider over it.
-
wow, that was a fast lynch. I guess that's okay. from the sound of his post it seems he's scum too!
-
I'm so unbelievably glad UoS's death got avenged by a hider plan working just like it was supposed to no words can sufficiently describe it.
-
The fun part will be figuring out which of the people that said "wait guys are we counting right?" is on his team.
-
I'm so unbelievably glad UoS's death got avenged by a hider plan working just like it was supposed to no words can sufficiently describe it.
Still no flip. How do you know nkirbit is scum? Partner?
-
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
Note how ash here says psychologist, without considering detective.
If we held this to the standards that Ash held EFHW's "scumslip" in Innovation, this definitely looks like a "copslip" to me.. knowing that a psych is in the game, not a detective.
Now, I didn't think EFHW's scumslip was one, and it turns out it wasn't. But this is coming from Ash, who sees slips everywhere.
This is funny coming from the lynchee. I still don't even know if you are scum or town. This is a great catch if you are town, though.
Isn't vig/tracker the choice one, and then there's a cop and a psychologist?
-
Robz will be notifying yuma of the lynch and then yuma will provide the flip.
-
I'm so unbelievably glad UoS's death got avenged by a hider plan working just like it was supposed to no words can sufficiently describe it.
Still no flip. How do you know nkirbit is scum? Partner?
He all but admitted it
-
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
Note how ash here says psychologist, without considering detective.
If we held this to the standards that Ash held EFHW's "scumslip" in Innovation, this definitely looks like a "copslip" to me.. knowing that a psych is in the game, not a detective.
Now, I didn't think EFHW's scumslip was one, and it turns out it wasn't. But this is coming from Ash, who sees slips everywhere.
This is funny coming from the lynchee. I still don't even know if you are scum or town. This is a great catch if you are town, though.
Isn't vig/tracker the choice one, and then there's a cop and a psychologist?
Vig/tracker is the choice. There is a cop, who 50% of the time will be a psychologist and 50% of the time will be a detective.
Town only has 1 PR left. Either the detective or the psychologist.
-
I'm so unbelievably glad UoS's death got avenged by a hider plan working just like it was supposed to no words can sufficiently describe it.
Still no flip. How do you know nkirbit is scum? Partner?
Who do you think tries to out a town PR in twilight? Lynched town, or lynched scum?
-
By all appearances, ash, the plan has worked like a charm. Also, if you're our last PR, you had better start thinking about whether you're going to let us in on your info before night hits.
-
sure, keep on going like you weren't 100% wrong ash, I'm sure the truth will never catch up to you.
-
I'm sorry for being snarky, but I got like really annoyed with ash being all "this new guy is ruining it all with his theory talk!"' and this twist of events (the theory talk yealding maximum rewards) pleases me oh so greatly.
-
I readily admitted on D1 that even though the plan was bad, it could work.
I stand by my stance that it was FAR from the glorious paragon of perfection you all went on and on about. Otherwise, Hider is the most OP role on the planet.
-
By all appearances, ash, the plan has worked like a charm. Also, if you're our last PR, you had better start thinking about whether you're going to let us in on your info before night hits.
If the Hider caught scum, there's no reason for the psychologist to spill anything.
-
I'm sorry for being snarky, but I got like really annoyed with ash being all "this new guy is ruining it all with his theory talk!"' and this twist of events (the theory talk yealding maximum rewards) pleases me oh so greatly.
What new guy? TA was the plan dude. He's not new.
-
sure, keep on going like you weren't 100% wrong ash, I'm sure the truth will never catch up to you.
This sounds like annoyed scum. FoS.
-
I'm so unbelievably glad UoS's death got avenged by a hider plan working just like it was supposed to no words can sufficiently describe it.
Still no flip. How do you know nkirbit is scum? Partner?
Who do you think tries to out a town PR in twilight? Lynched town, or lynched scum?
Lynched scum. I have no idea what that has to do with Eevee's post.
-
By all appearances, ash, the plan has worked like a charm. Also, if you're our last PR, you had better start thinking about whether you're going to let us in on your info before night hits.
If the Hider caught scum, there's no reason for the psychologist to spill anything.
nkirbit is telling his scumbuddies to kill you.
-
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
That would suck, and was a possibility that none of you wanted to account for. Your blinders bewildered me.
-
By all appearances, ash, the plan has worked like a charm. Also, if you're our last PR, you had better start thinking about whether you're going to let us in on your info before night hits.
If the Hider caught scum, there's no reason for the psychologist to spill anything.
nkirbit is telling his scumbuddies to kill you.
Huh?
-
I'm sorry for being snarky, but I got like really annoyed with ash being all "this new guy is ruining it all with his theory talk!"' and this twist of events (the theory talk yealding maximum rewards) pleases me oh so greatly.
Yeah. Even though I'm obviously on the bad end of it, it really is pretty nifty.
I do think that it's somewhat unfun. Part of the fun of being a PR is getting to make decisions that influence the game. When you reduce your actions to following a formula, it may help town, but I don't think that it's necessarily fun. I think mafia is a fun game in part because people make choices, and removing that aspect of hider is harmful to the fun of the game. But maybe people are okay with that. I'm sure if we asked UoS, he would say that he's plenty fine with not having made a choice last night.
-
I'm sorry for being snarky, but I got like really annoyed with ash being all "this new guy is ruining it all with his theory talk!"' and this twist of events (the theory talk yealding maximum rewards) pleases me oh so greatly.
Yeah. Even though I'm obviously on the bad end of it, it really is pretty nifty.
I do think that it's somewhat unfun. Part of the fun of being a PR is getting to make decisions that influence the game. When you reduce your actions to following a formula, it may help town, but I don't think that it's necessarily fun. I think mafia is a fun game in part because people make choices, and removing that aspect of hider is harmful to the fun of the game. But maybe people are okay with that. I'm sure if we asked UoS, he would say that he's plenty fine with not having made a choice last night.
If you are admitting to being scum, which scum are you? Flavor name?
-
I'm sorry for being snarky, but I got like really annoyed with ash being all "this new guy is ruining it all with his theory talk!"' and this twist of events (the theory talk yealding maximum rewards) pleases me oh so greatly.
Yeah. Even though I'm obviously on the bad end of it, it really is pretty nifty.
I do think that it's somewhat unfun. Part of the fun of being a PR is getting to make decisions that influence the game. When you reduce your actions to following a formula, it may help town, but I don't think that it's necessarily fun. I think mafia is a fun game in part because people make choices, and removing that aspect of hider is harmful to the fun of the game. But maybe people are okay with that. I'm sure if we asked UoS, he would say that he's plenty fine with not having made a choice last night.
If you are admitting to being scum, which scum are you? Flavor name?
Where did I say I was scum?
-
Yeah. Even though I'm obviously on the bad end of it, it really is pretty nifty.
This looks like an admission.
-
Yeah. Even though I'm obviously on the bad end of it, it really is pretty nifty.
This looks like an admission.
Well, I would say that being mislynched is pretty bad!
-
I'm really not qualified to say if hider as a role is overpowered or not, but it seems pretty clear to me that all the guys who spent all those posts and all that time perfecting a plan for us helped us lynch scum without any discussion day 2. I would say those who tried to shut down such discussion day 1 should really reconsider their stance (and quite frankly their attitude), as lynching scum day 2 without outing any power roles is pretty damn awesome, yeah!
-
Final Day2 Vote Count 2.3
I am on, so going to flip now. Slightly shorter twilight, but better than waiting until Friday for the flip eh?
nkirbit (6): Twistedarcher, liopoil, chairs, Jimmmmm, Robz888, ashersky
Not voting: raerae, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Eevee
As Miss Scarlet came out of the bathroom she let out a shriek. Mr. Green was standing right in front of the doorway.
“What were you doing in there? It smells weird.”
“Mr. Green, you can’t ask a woman a question like that,” she replied.
The other guests came quickly running to the scene. “What happened? What was wrong?” asked Mrs. White.
“Nothing was wrong. Mr. Green is just acting weird,” Miss Scarlet said with her eyes shifting toward the kitchen. “What is that smell! I am so hungry! I know what I want! Pizza, pizza, me so hungry! We should get pizza!”
“Miss Scarlet this is no time to think about your stomach,” said Wadsworth the Butler coming closer to the bathroom door. “We have two dead bodies in the study, another body down a dark and mysterious cavern and another one that is missing. This is no time to think about food. We need to figure out who killed them, and where and with what!”
“Ok, sure, fine. But there is no need to shout.”
“I am not shouting!” Wadsworth the Butler shouted.
“All right, I am. I’m shouting, I’m shouting, I’m shout…” he said, suddenly falling silent as a Lead Pipe covered in some sort of blue paint fell on top of his head.
Wadsworth The Butler fell to the floor. After a few moments Mr. Green checked his pulse. “I think he is dead. I didn't do it!”
He was.
nkirbit, Wadsworth the Butler, the Mafia Goon has been lynched.
Night actions to me in 48 hours, so July 26 at 10:30 pm forum time.
Please remember to check in and acknowledge the start of night.
This thread is Locked
-
Day2 won't start until Saturday when I get home from VLA. Sorry about the slight delay, but I want to make sure all night actions have been fully submitted before continuing. Also I am still waiting for two of you to check in. I will send both of you PMs.
This thread is still locked.
-
Day3 Start
“Well we have another dead body,” said Col. Mustard.
“Let’s take him back to the Study with the rest of the bodies. After all Wadsworth the Butler would never want us to leave his body here cluttering up the Hall. He did like to keep things tidy,” said Yvette the Maid with a tear running down her face.
“What does a Butler do anyways?” asked The Mechanic.
“He buttles,” said The Cook.
As they carried Wadsworth the Butler’s body from the bathroom to the Study another guest died. Miss Scarlet quickly and quietly left the group to go upstairs. She had forgotten something on the second floor and wanted to retrieve it. But as she came down the stairs her ruby red high-heels caught on something at the top of the stairs. The Rope had been tied between the bannisters and she tripped and tumbled down the stairs, throwing her item into the air. She landed with a crash, but without a word at the bottom of the stairs.
Robz, Miss Scarlet, Vanilla Townie has been killed in the night.
Vote Count 3.1
Not voting: (8) raerae, mcmcsalot, chairs, ashersky, liopoil, Eevee, twistedarcher, Jimmmmmmm
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
Day3 Starts Now!
-
8 alive (even # of people), no protective roles left. that's no lynch, right?
-
I'd say no lynch if we absolutely have to, but we're still better off lynching another mobster tonight if possible. With one down, we've got 2 left to track. I think if we look at the people who were worried about nkirbit's imminent flip, they'd be likely targets (but don't forget we might also want to review who hopped on the bus)
-
oh sure. If the detective/psychologist found someone, by all means, let's lynch'em! But unless they claim something, I'm fairly sure no lynch is best.
Vote: No lynch
-
the hider plan worked great! however, we did lose a PR and lowered the number of mislynches we can afford. So it was more like a 1-for-1 trade, which still favors town of course.
But now we have a dead scum! let's analyze his interactions and stuff. We can't really do much in the way of wagon analysis on him, because scum knew he was going down and so could easily have bussed.
A bit surprised by the robz kill, because I think he was the most hesitant to lynch nkirbit...
-
people who voted for nkirbit D1, in chronological order: shraeye (who is dead town, and yes, he is the only one)
people who nkirbit voted for D1, in chronological order: chairs, liopoil, chairs again.
for reference, here is nkirbit's biggest post where he says stuff about a lot of different people:
So, this gives me major reservations about lynching chairs...
-
Being hesitant to lynch nkirbit was really a nulltell for someone like Robz there though.
-
I'd say no lynch if we absolutely have to, but we're still better off lynching another mobster tonight if possible. With one down, we've got 2 left to track. I think if we look at the people who were worried about nkirbit's imminent flip, they'd be likely targets (but don't forget we might also want to review who hopped on the bus)
So caution = mafia now? I'm more suspicious of the people who voted without comment.
-
Hey guys I'm back.
Vote Count 3.2
Now there were five bodies in the study. Suddenly the doorbell rang.
The guests looked at each other in shock! Who could it be? How could they answer the door? It was locked!
They all ran to the door. One of the guests looked through the peephole and saw a stunning sight. On the door step was a young man in a white shirt and tie. His hair was slicked back and he carried some books.
“Should we let him in?” asked The Singing Telegram Girl.
“And how do you propose we do that?” asked Yvette the Maid. "The door is locked!"
“What kind of a moron locks the door and throws away the key?” asked Mr. Green grasping the door handle and turning it in exasperation. Surprisingly the door opened and the young man stepped into the frame of the door. He held his head high and took a step singing “Da, da, da, da, da, da. I am your Mormon Missionary.”
Everyone stared at him in disbelief. A Mormon missionary? Here, now. Of all nights?
“Good evening I am Elder Nothsa,” he said. “Have you ever given any thought to the kingdom of heaven?”
“What?” cried The Cook.
“Repent, the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”
“You ain’t just whistling Dixie,” said Mrs. White.
“Armageddon is almost upon us.”
“I got news for you—its already here,” said The Mechanic.
“Go away,” said Mrs. White.
“But your souls are in danger.”
“Our lives are in danger,” shouted The Cook.
No lynch: (1) liopoil
Not voting: (7) raerae, mcmcsalot, chairs, ashersky, Eevee, twistedarcher, Jimmmmmmm
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
I'd say no lynch if we absolutely have to, but we're still better off lynching another mobster tonight if possible. With one down, we've got 2 left to track. I think if we look at the people who were worried about nkirbit's imminent flip, they'd be likely targets (but don't forget we might also want to review who hopped on the bus)
So caution = mafia now? I'm more suspicious of the people who voted without comment.
Not necessarily, hence the disclaimer in the parentheses. My first instinct is that the "but wait, we're doing the math wrong" from, say, Robz, is indicative that he might be scum - but maybe he just really wasn't on the same page as the rest of us? D1 analysis of who seemed to understand the plan the best is probably in order.
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
I think it's pretty neutral of alignment.
Although, scum might have wanted to jump on board since they knew their partner was probably getting lynched.
Nkirbit's position on Chairs' wagon makes me think that Chairs is probably town, so we had two town wagons D1. I'd expect scum to probably split the wagons in that case, and that there's at least one scum on Voltaire's wagon (and probably there's a scum who got on Voltaire's wagon pretty early, too.)
-
Nkirbit told his scumbuddies that Ashersky might be the last PR, but he's still alive today. This is either his partners disregarding, or disagreeing with, his advice, or possibly Ashersky's scum and Nkirbit was trying to get us to think he's town. I really have no idea which, but the second definitely seems like a feasible option.
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
well, it could be scummy if someone clearly completely understood how the plan works but then wasn't sure about lynching nkirbit...
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
well, it could be scummy if someone clearly completely understood how the plan works but then wasn't sure about lynching nkirbit...
I'd expect a scum who was iffy on the plan to see Nkirbit accumulating a ton of votes regarding the plan, and then want to immediately jump on, actually.
-
Just re-read the thread, with the knowledge that Nkirbit is scum, and four other players are town.
I'm still on the Ashersky bandwagon.
Early on, Ashersky comes in with the opinion that talking about the hider plan is terribly bad, and starts his general anti-town behavior. In post #239, UoS votes him for this. Immediately, in the next post, Nkirbit comes out and says that regardless of people's opinions, we should stop talking about the plan, and move the game forward. Ultimately, a pro-town notion, but its timing is noteworthy, in that it came immediately after Ashersky had generated a vote for stating his opinion on the plan. This is a semi-defense of Ashersky, in that he doesn't actually mention Ash's name, but suggests we direct the topic of conversation elsewhere.
The Ash bandwagon gets going. UoS, Mcmc, Ash, Shraeye, Eevee, Jimmm, TA, Chairs, and Voltaire all vote Ash at some point, with several players unvoting. TA's vote brings Ash to L-2 (but really L-3, since Ash was on himself). Now, despite the fact that he claimed to have no problem being the lynch, Ash was still actively scumhunting, and putting suspicion on people who voted him for inadequate reasons. To me, this is NOT the behavior of someone who wanted to get lynched. I fully think it's a gambit by Ash to gain town cred, I really do. The flip side is that he wanted to gauge reactions, and see who jumped on board. But I think it was really a gambit, and one that worked.
Now, that's a lot of people to vote for one person. But we know that UoS, Shraeye, and Volt were all town, and Ash's vote doesn't really count. That leaves TA, Eevee, Jimmm, and Mcmc. I know I'm town, and I have a towny read on Eevee also (what else is new...). I also really think that Chairs is town, due to Nkirbit's position driving that wagon early, and the end of the D1, where no lynch really went forward easily. That leaves Jimmm and Mcmc, one of whom could be a potential Ashersky partner, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're both town, as well.
In post #379, Nkirbit offers his opinion on the Ash wagon. He offers the opinion that he thinks Ash is probably town, and he finds the people on the wagon suspicious. In post #382, he finds Mcmc and Chairs scummiest for their positions on the Ash wagon. This is interesting, because Nkirbit doesn't attempt to actually individually dissuade anyone's argument. He doesn't take the stance that people on the wagon could be mistakenly casting their votes, and trying to dissuade them (similar to what Robz, a town member, did.) Rather, he goes right to scum hunting among Ash's wagon. This seems too predatory a position, to me. It's asserting that he KNOWS Ash is town, and that there's scum pushing his wagon, rather that it's possible a bunch of mistaken townies, or that Ash really could be scum. That amount of certainty makes sense, given that Nkirbit was scum, and also leads me to believe he was trying to redirect from a scum buddy.
Voltaire had begun to find Chairs suspicious, so Nkirbit jumped on Chairs as a possible alternative lynch to Ashersky in #397.
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
In #774, Ash states that he believes the Chairs lynch is a convenience lynch. In #777, he clarifies, saying that he meant it's an "Easy lynch for scum to push through to save a partner." The obvious implication is that Voltaire could be likely scum. Not scummy in itself, I also firmly believed Chairs to be VT. Yet, with Volt at L-3 and Chairs at L-1, he holds off on voting for Volt. This is the scummy part. If he really felt that strongly about Chairs v. Volt, I think he'd have moved to Voltaire much, much, much more quickly. Yet he waited until Volt was at L-1 to cast the hammer. This reads more like a scum who doesn't care which town lynch goes through rather than a town member waiting (since he had made it very clear how he felt on Voltaire vs. Chairs, and Volt had been in his "would-lynch" category most of the day.
The three main points why I believe Ashersky is scum:
1) I believe his self-vote to be 100% a scum gambit to gain town reads.
2) I believe Nkirbit defending Ashersky during the wagon was incriminating. Nkirbit was too quick to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This reads more like scum defending a partner than scum defending a townie. Nkirbit also pushed Chairs, who had been suspected by another play, as an alternative lynch quickly. Nkirbit did not want Ashersky to be getting so much attention.
3) The end of the day. It reads more like scum!Ashersky choosing between two town members than anything else. I believe that if town, Ashersky would have voted Voltaire, who he had in his "would lynch" category, much earlier than he did, to avoid the "convenience lynch" of Chairs. Instead, he ended up waiting for the hammer -- the desperation to avoid a lynch of Chairs was stated, but the actions don't agree with it.
Vote: Ashersky
-
Oh but I'd be perfectly okay no-lynching today and voting for Ashersky tomorrow, too.
-
Yeah, I think barring a positive result from PR, no-lynch is probably best. Another shot to find scum is always good. Is there any reason to lynch today as opposed to tomorrow, if there's no result?
-
Can somebody explain to me the relative value of a no-lynch today, versus a lynch? I guess obviously a mislynch is bad, but that doesn't stop us from trying most of the time. in B2B when I suggested no-lynch was viable I got shot down as ridiculous/scummy, so clearly there's a math issue at work here that I'm not catching.
-
vote: TA for bold faced lies and painting himself into a scum corner (with probable partner, Eevee).
On mobile now, will blow up TA's lies soon.
-
I wholeheartedly agree with TA's ash-case, but I'd like to see some lynch vs nolynch analysis, this situation with two scum alive is new to me. Do we have any theory guys alive, maybe TA?
Having long-ish nights and practically skipping D2 altogether makes it hard for me to remember what was going on with this game. I think chairs was way more likely than Voltaire to flip scum (I dislike that lynch strooongly still), but chairs is still semi-towny looking for his ultimately credible VT claim.
I don't see why raerae has gotten so many townreads from several people.
Jimmm I think is towny for lack of effort and presence.
Mcmc I lean townier because he has played a game that makes it easy to suspect him.
Liopoil is scummy for being such a null-read.
TA always looks towny to me, but I agree with his ash-case a lot so I'm fine with leaning town on him. If he is scum, ash is most definitely town though (could be a convincing well-built case by scum).
Ash is my preferred lynch for reasons stated before.
-
vote: TA for bold faced lies and painting himself into a scum corner (with probable partner, Eevee).
On mobile now, will blow up TA's lies soon.
*popcorn*!
-
I wholeheartedly agree with TA's ash-case, but I'd like to see some lynch vs nolynch analysis, this situation with two scum alive is new to me. Do we have any theory guys alive
hi!
we can afford exactly 1 mislynch. this is the case no matter what, no lynching doesn't change anything about that. losing a (single) town member (at night after a no lynch) does not hurt us. what it does do is:
- give our PR another chance to investigate.
- force scum to give us a conf. townie, albeit a dead one. we can't lynch dead townies though! this lowers the number of people we can potentially mislynch.
it can't give our PR fewer nights to investigate either, because if scum kills them after tonight after a no lynch, they would also kill them after a lynch too. in that scenario, either way our PR doesn't get another chance to investigate.
hmmmm, not sure what to make of ash-TA. I will wait for ash to "blow up TA's lies" to make a judgement.
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
well, it could be scummy if someone clearly completely understood how the plan works but then wasn't sure about lynching nkirbit...
I'd expect a scum who was iffy on the plan to see Nkirbit accumulating a ton of votes regarding the plan, and then want to immediately jump on, actually.
well that too. either way, anyone who acted differently than would be expected.
-
Okay, I'm here and will break it all down for you. In broad strokes:
1) TA misrepresents and manipulates Day 1 information. This includes, but is not limited to, his characterization of myself, the opinions of the dead, and his own interactions.
2) TA has been building up to an ash mislynch since D1, using subterfuge, lies, and bullets. This includes, but is not limited to, his uncharacteristic tunnelling of me, his choice of nightkills, and his most recent "case" post, which is clearly pre-written before the day started but after he chose to kill Robz.
I'm going to use multiple, concise posts to make my point, as walls of text such as those of scum!TA are tools of scum to force mislynches. Want to use a bunch of lies to mislynch town? Surround them with more than 9000 words to soften the blow of the inconsistencies and to discourage close reading and rebuttals.
Luckily, TA chose the wrong townie to try and railroad. Scum team, kick yourself for not killing me last night. And then kick yourself again.
-
Early on, Ashersky comes in with the opinion that talking about the hider plan is terribly bad, and starts his general anti-town behavior.
I'm going to quote specific lines, instead of the entire more than 9000! (From here on out, I will refer to TA's case post as the DBZ.) Here is the opening line of his case explanation, but also the opening movement of his scum symphony to orchestrate my mislynch.
The plan. We argued about it. I get it. Here's how I believe we can break it down. TA and others suggest Hider plans. I get into the game, argue vehemently against it. I fight against it as if it were akin to drowning puppies (it was). I take it to the next level, offering up myself in lieu of puppies, because I'd rather be out of the game then to watch another puppy be drowned by TA and his friends.
There were, I think, three reactions to this. 1) This is ridiculous town!ash again. No way we should vote for him. 2) This is ridiculously anti-town but still town!ash. Shut up, dude. 3) This is brilliantly scheming scum!ash who's finally overplayed his hand in this genius gambit.
UoS, Mcmc, Ash, Shraeye, Eevee, Jimmm, TA, Chairs, and Voltaire all vote Ash at some point, with several players unvoting...
Now, that's a lot of people to vote for one person. But we know that UoS, Shraeye, and Volt were all town, and Ash's vote doesn't really count. That leaves TA, Eevee, Jimmm, and Mcmc...
Here are two lines of interest from the next two paragraphs. It is here, buried among a lot of nothing, where TA works his manipulation magic. He lists all players who voted for me, together. He visually and theoretically puts all nine players in one group. Then he breaks it down a full seven lines down, pointing out who we now know are town, and who may not yet be.
But that's the extent of the delving he does. This portion of his DBZ screams "look at all the townies that thought Ash was scum!" when in fact, not all of them did. Voltaire, easily my biggest detractor on D1 after TA, was unsure of his scum!read by the end of D1. Shraeye was pretty clearly convinced I was town from the beginning.
He also doesn't mention, AT ALL, the other players in the game, namely Robz and raerae, both of whom were staunchly in my corner.
In sum: TA selectively used the names of our dearly departed in a way to paint me as scummy. They aren't here to correct him. TA ignores their opinions and uses their voting records to try and support his scumread on me. He tied those points back into the plan argument, which was a flashpoint and probably the most vivid memory from D1. It is misleading and manipulative in nature, which is inherently scummy.
-
Now, despite the fact that he claimed to have no problem being the lynch, Ash was still actively scumhunting, and putting suspicion on people who voted him for inadequate reasons. To me, this is NOT the behavior of someone who wanted to get lynched.
I've bolded the ridiculousness for you. Ash is scumhunting, it means he's scum! In the immortal words of mail-mi: lolwut?
-
Ash, do you think trying to make your point convincing if you really believe in it is scummy? Obviously town who thinks they caught scum wants to make their case look credible.
-
In post #379, Nkirbit offers his opinion on the Ash wagon. He offers the opinion that he thinks Ash is probably town, and he finds the people on the wagon suspicious. In post #382, he finds Mcmc and Chairs scummiest for their positions on the Ash wagon. This is interesting, because Nkirbit doesn't attempt to actually individually dissuade anyone's argument. He doesn't take the stance that people on the wagon could be mistakenly casting their votes, and trying to dissuade them (similar to what Robz, a town member, did.) Rather, he goes right to scum hunting among Ash's wagon. This seems too predatory a position, to me. It's asserting that he KNOWS Ash is town, and that there's scum pushing his wagon, rather that it's possible a bunch of mistaken townies, or that Ash really could be scum. That amount of certainty makes sense, given that Nkirbit was scum, and also leads me to believe he was trying to redirect from a scum buddy.
Here, TA tries to use nkirbit to make me scum. I believe that studying nkirbit's interactions are important, so I get what he's doing. But he's doing it with the express purpose of painting me as scummy. I think you can all agree there.
Let's break this down. nkirbit "thinks Ash is probably town" is not a strike against me, given nkirbit knows who all the town are. "He finds mcmc and chairs scummiest" for where they are on my wagon? Where were they on my wagon, anyway? Oh right, you fail to mention that. Why? Because mcmc, in fact, hopped on and off the wagon twice with very little time actually on the wagon. mcmc's "position" on the wagon is undefined as best, due to voting/unvoting. In the end, mcmc is another player that gave up his scumread at the time. But TA here uses "mcmc's position on the wagon" as a way to point to MY scumminess? How? Unless mcmc is scum trying to bus, mcmc's actions look like emotional reactions or scum trying to help my wagon along, but neither makes sense if we're partners.
The next bolded bit, well, nkirbit DID KNOW I was town. From there to end, he makes a great case for why nkirbit is scum. But we already know that. He makes the point that nkirbit knows I am town, so he tried to redirect votes away from me, his scum buddy. That's a ridiculous contradiction, man. Does he know I'm town, or does he know I'm his buddy? He can't know both, since they can't both be true. And he wouldn't fake one or the other, since either one being faked doesn't help his cause.
This is a failagraph.
-
Ash, do you think trying to make your point convincing if you really believe in it is scummy? Obviously town who thinks they caught scum wants to make their case look credible.
I get your question, but I think the issue here is trying to "make their case look credible" is the problem. Town does this by starting at the conclusion, then finding things to support it. TA decided (a long, long time ago) that I was scum, and has since been finding things to prove his conclusion. The problem with that is, he is twisting things into it.
Town does that all the time, which I think is your point. When I'm done refuting TA's case, you'll see why I don't think that's the case here.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
In mean girls we had town reads on all our scum mates all game. That's really a huge null-argument, especially coming from you as you would have been the one to decide to list all town..
-
In #774, Ash states that he believes the Chairs lynch is a convenience lynch. In #777, he clarifies, saying that he meant it's an "Easy lynch for scum to push through to save a partner." The obvious implication is that Voltaire could be likely scum. Not scummy in itself, I also firmly believed Chairs to be VT. Yet, with Volt at L-3 and Chairs at L-1, he holds off on voting for Volt. This is the scummy part. If he really felt that strongly about Chairs v. Volt, I think he'd have moved to Voltaire much, much, much more quickly. Yet he waited until Volt was at L-1 to cast the hammer. This reads more like a scum who doesn't care which town lynch goes through rather than a town member waiting (since he had made it very clear how he felt on Voltaire vs. Chairs, and Volt had been in his "would-lynch" category most of the day.
Final explanatory paragraph from TA. The first bolded line shows how we shared an opinion that chairs is a VT. He makes clear that portion of this is "not scummy in itself." The second bold is "the scummy part." But look at his wording here. "he'd have moved to Voltaire..." is a manipulation of the facts and a lie. The implication was that I was on chairs and didn't move to Voltaire soon enough. The issue here is, I was generally on mcmc or TA for most of the day.
You could argue that he just meant move my vote from wherever it was TO Voltaire. Right? No. Look at the unbolded line before it. "Yet, with Volt at L-3 and Chairs at L-1, he holds off on voting for Volt." A different sentence construction, which was accurate when compared to what he used in the "scummy part." A deliberate adverb change which makes me seem scummy. This is scum manipulation at its most subtle and best.
Hammering Voltaire, instead of being the L-2 vote, is not scummy. I don't see in what universe that makes me scum. I was never voting for Chairs, that was clear. When I voted for Volt matters only in relation to what else I was trying to accomplish, which was lynching mcmc, or you. But again, you leave out the context for the sake of strengthening your "case."
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
In mean girls we had town reads on all our scum mates all game. That's really a huge null-argument, especially coming from you as you would have been the one to decide to list all town..
So I pull the exact same move here in back-to-back scum games? I'm okay with it being null, I mean, my point isn't any stronger than TA's. But my point is TA's point is weak, but he uses it in his "case" against me.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
In mean girls we had town reads on all our scum mates all game. That's really a huge null-argument, especially coming from you as you would have been the one to decide to list all town..
So I pull the exact same move here in back-to-back scum games? I'm okay with it being null, I mean, my point isn't any stronger than TA's. But my point is TA's point is weak, but he uses it in his "case" against me.
I think that was way more manipulation and lies to make your point seem more credible than anything TA did.
-
1) I believe his self-vote to be 100% a scum gambit to gain town reads.
2) I believe Nkirbit defending Ashersky during the wagon was incriminating. Nkirbit was too quick to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This reads more like scum defending a partner than scum defending a townie. Nkirbit also pushed Chairs, who had been suspected by another play, as an alternative lynch quickly. Nkirbit did not want Ashersky to be getting so much attention.
3) The end of the day. It reads more like scum!Ashersky choosing between two town members than anything else. I believe that if town, Ashersky would have voted Voltaire, who he had in his "would lynch" category, much earlier than he did, to avoid the "convenience lynch" of Chairs. Instead, he ended up waiting for the hammer -- the desperation to avoid a lynch of Chairs was stated, but the actions don't agree with it.
Here is the end of the DBZ, where he sums it all up.
1) I've pointed out how this is flawed, but at best, it's a personal opinion that you can't back up. If the self-vote itself is the issue, feel free to go find every game I've ever self-voted.
2) I've pointed out the flaws in your logic here. Everything you could find was nkirbit being scum. Also, this is just asinine. Your own explanatory points on this showed that you saw nkirbit "knowing I was town" and yet to say it is more likely that was a stupid scumslip ploy to save me? He either knew I was town or knew I was his partner. Not both. Everything you say points to the former.
3) It was very possible that whoever was voting at the end was choosing between two town members. But think about this: the choice was ACTUALLY among chairs, Voltaire, and No Lynch. If we don't have a hammer (and I was the only one NOT voting), the day ends without a lynch. So hammering town was the unfortunate but required thing there. Chairs was a VT, Voltaire didn't have time to claim. I gave it as long as I could. Rushing it, which you seem to think would have been better, is the scummier action, to me. But you aer calling me scum for NOT voting early enough.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
In mean girls we had town reads on all our scum mates all game. That's really a huge null-argument, especially coming from you as you would have been the one to decide to list all town..
So I pull the exact same move here in back-to-back scum games? I'm okay with it being null, I mean, my point isn't any stronger than TA's. But my point is TA's point is weak, but he uses it in his "case" against me.
I think that was way more manipulation and lies to make your point seem more credible than anything TA did.
What is the "that" you are referring to?
-
So why do I think TA is scum and not incorrect town?
1) TA has tunnelled me the entire game. He was the strongest pusher for my death on D1, he opens D3 with a DBZ against me. He has been remarkably consistent, in fact. And that is his downfall. Town!TA's most recognizeable feature is his willingness to rethink things from every angle. He is not afraid to change a read. He often has an epiphanic moment where he will change a read from town to scum, or vice versa. In short, he has rarely, if ever, carried a scum read over three days and done nothing but push that read for the entire game. TA doesn't tunnel, he scumhunts. TA has an epic ability to read TOWN members very well. He may not always catch scum, but I trust his town radar. The fact that he has consistently and forcefully pushed for my lynch the entire game without even a minute amount of doubt or rethought makes it clear to me that he already knows my alignment.
2) I believe he's been planning my mislynch since my D1 play. He was unhappy that I wasn't the lynch on D1. He was extremely annoyed at my anti-plan stance. He has ensured that the night kills each night have been pro-Ash townies. Let me bold that for you. Scum has killed pro-ash townies every night. Scum!ash doesn't kill his only supporters off. I used to hate being mislynched. Some of you will remember this. I've come to appreciate scum's need to mislynch townies. TA's fallen for the same romantic ideal of the "perfectly easy mislynch" that is ashersky. It is aggravating when it doesn't happen, right?
3) I believe his DBZ was pre-written before the day started, after he decided to kill Robz. Pre-writing stuff isn't scummy, of course. But it fits into the plan he has to get me mislynched. No one can argue with the point that Robz would have been clearly defending me today. raerae is still alive, at least. But it only takes three townies to mislynch me, and assuming raerae is town, if Robz was alive right now, I'm in no danger of death. The points in the DBZ are manipulatively written and misleading, and use the dead against me. It tells a tale spun by a weaver of untruths and death.
-
we can afford exactly 1 mislynch. this is the case no matter what, no lynching doesn't change anything about that. losing a (single) town member (at night after a no lynch) does not hurt us. what it does do is:
- give our PR another chance to investigate.
- force scum to give us a conf. townie, albeit a dead one. we can't lynch dead townies though! this lowers the number of people we can potentially mislynch.
it can't give our PR fewer nights to investigate either, because if scum kills them after tonight after a no lynch, they would also kill them after a lynch too. in that scenario, either way our PR doesn't get another chance to investigate.
Liopoil is mostly correct here. I think he has a typo in the last line, though, as he wrote "it can't give our PR fewer nights to investigate either" when I think he was making the (pro-town) point that "it can give..." our PR fewer nights because regardless of what we do today, unless you lynch the PR, scum could still NK the PR.
I will say this: I do not believe the PR should claim today, unless the Det has a guilty result. Psych results are not reliable here, as the resolution order says the investigation comes after the kill, so it would be negative even if you choce correctly. The Det guilty result is reliable since the Vig is dead.
I would support a no lynch, if that's the consensus, but remember:
We are currently at 6 vs. 2. We each have a 2/7 chance of finding scum. A no lynch + NK makes it 5 vs. 2, upping chances to 1/3 in LYLO.
Consider instead a mislynch today, plus an NK tonight. That puts us at 4 vs. 2 with a 1/3 chance for each townie to catch scum.
So, both a no lynch and a mislynch results in LYLO tomorrow with a 1/3 chance for each townie. I guess I'm not super convinced a no lynch helps, when we look at it like that. Especially because scum won't kill off anyone that's a likely mislynch to help us out.
I think we lynch one of TA or myself today. Why? Scum won't kill me, because I'm a town mislynch that's still in the works, even after a No Lynch. And TA will be alive tomorrow, because he's scum. (Turn that around, if you are TA or his partner or his supporter -- the point remains).
I flip town, you know to kill TA tomorrow. TA flips scum, we're in great shape tomorrow.
If TA flips town...not only will I eat nkirbit's hat, I will...PPE: this got morbid so I cut it out.
-
Oh yeah posts! I am in no condition to respond as to why ask is completelyyyy wtk g but I will convinc you all why he's scum tomorrow.
But should we no lynxh regardless? I think so?
-
Oh yeah posts! I am in no condition to respond as to why ask is completelyyyy wtk g but I will convinc you all why he's scum tomorrow.
But should we no lynxh regardless? I think so?
Can you translate "wtk g"?
-
Oh yeah posts! I am in no condition to respond as to why ask is completelyyyy wtk g but I will convinc you all why he's scum tomorrow.
But should we no lynxh regardless? I think so?
Can you translate "wtk g"?
Wait, maybe "wtk g" = "wrong"?
-
Oh yeah posts! I am in no condition to respond as to why ask is completelyyyy wtk g but I will convinc you all why he's scum tomorrow.
But should we no lynxh regardless? I think so?
Can you translate "wtk g"?
Wait, maybe "wtk g" = "wrong"?
Yep, sorry.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
The fact that you're mistaken Town?
Vote: Twisted
-
Vote Count 3.3
“Wait, Uh can I come in and use your phone” asked the missionary. “I seem to have lost my partner in this storm.”
The guests looked past him out into the night. A storm was raging. Yet the missionary wasn’t wet at all.
“Of course you may, sir!” said Yvette the Maid after a moment’s hesitation. “You may use the one in the upsta…, um… no. Uh, you could the one in the stud… no. Uh, uh, would you be kind enough to wait in the, um, in-in, um, uh library?”
“Oh, great! I love libraries. Speaking of books, have you ever heard of this great book.”
<30 minutes later>
“And to make a long story short....,” the missionary began to finish.
“Too late,” said everyone, interrupting.
“...we now have a worldwide church and I think you all should be baptized.”
No lynch: (1) liopoil
ashersky: (1) TA
TA: (2) ashersky, Jimmmmmmm
Not voting: (4) raerae, mcmcsalot, chairs, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
Although for the record, I'm generally in favour of the no-lynch option since it will potentially give our PR another opportunity to get information and reduce our number of possible mislynches. Any reasons not to no-lynch?
-
Although for the record, I'm generally in favour of the no-lynch option since it will potentially give our PR another opportunity to get information and reduce our number of possible mislynches. Any reasons not to no-lynch?
As I laid out, I think no-lynch leaves us in the same position as a mislynch tomorrow, so it isn't as favorable as it looked at first blush. I'm not convinced it's the wrong decision, by any means, but depending on who scum kills, it possibly can hurt us tomorrow.
I prefer to lynch TA, as I've mentioned once or twice. And that scumslip was epic.
-
We are currently at 6 vs. 2. We each have a 2/7 chance of finding scum. A no lynch + NK makes it 5 vs. 2, upping chances to 1/3 in LYLO.
Consider instead a mislynch today, plus an NK tonight. That puts us at 4 vs. 2 with a 1/3 chance for each townie to catch scum.
So, both a no lynch and a mislynch results in LYLO tomorrow with a 1/3 chance for each townie. I guess I'm not super convinced a no lynch helps, when we look at it like that. Especially because scum won't kill off anyone that's a likely mislynch to help us out.
But 5 vs 2 isn't lylo (in fact neither is 4 v 2, but it is mylo).
-
We are currently at 6 vs. 2. We each have a 2/7 chance of finding scum. A no lynch + NK makes it 5 vs. 2, upping chances to 1/3 in LYLO.
Consider instead a mislynch today, plus an NK tonight. That puts us at 4 vs. 2 with a 1/3 chance for each townie to catch scum.
So, both a no lynch and a mislynch results in LYLO tomorrow with a 1/3 chance for each townie. I guess I'm not super convinced a no lynch helps, when we look at it like that. Especially because scum won't kill off anyone that's a likely mislynch to help us out.
But 5 vs 2 isn't lylo (in fact neither is 4 v 2, but it is mylo).
If we lynch town at 5 vs 2, then town is NK'ed, it's 3 v 2 the next day, so you are right, that's LYLO there. At 4 v 2, we mislynch and lose, no lynch and end up at 3 v 2.
You are right, my math was wrong. 5 v 2 gives us an extra day, in theory, which is today, the no lynch day. I guess technically we could no lynch three times (from 6 v 2 to 3 v 2), but that's dumb.
I don't know. I still prefer to just lynch scum.
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
I think it's pretty neutral of alignment.
Although, scum might have wanted to jump on board since they knew their partner was probably getting lynched.
Nkirbit's position on Chairs' wagon makes me think that Chairs is probably town, so we had two town wagons D1. I'd expect scum to probably split the wagons in that case, and that there's at least one scum on Voltaire's wagon (and probably there's a scum who got on Voltaire's wagon pretty early, too.)
Why? Can you validate that statement with actual reasons or do you just expect us to accept this as fact?
-
Can you validate that statement with actual reasons or do you just expect us to accept this as fact?
That's scum!TA's thing.
-
So what is the final verdict on the no lynch thing? Can both Ash and TA or Jimmmmm answer that, please?
-
So what is the final verdict on the no lynch thing? Can both Ash and TA or Jimmmmm answer that, please?
It has merit, but I prefer to lynch scum.
I would not call shenanigans on anyone for pushing no lynch, though.
-
I don't know. I still prefer to just lynch scum.
I agree with this notion in principal, but an oddity of this game is that having an even number of players and one extra VT is generally worse for Town than having an odd number without the VT. We'd much rather get to, for example, 2 v 1 than 3 v 1. So I think we should no-lynch at some point, and I don't see a good reason to delay that until Tomorrow. The counter for that, of course, is for scum to simply refuse to nightkill, but that won't work because then our PR will simply investigate everyone and then claim. So scum has to kill, and I think having one person die is better for Town than two at this stage.
So while yes I'd prefer to lynch scum, no-lynching is something we have to do to maximise the odds sometimes, and I think now is the right time to do it.
-
I don't know. I still prefer to just lynch scum.
I agree with this notion in principal, but an oddity of this game is that having an even number of players and one extra VT is generally worse for Town than having an odd number without the VT. We'd much rather get to, for example, 2 v 1 than 3 v 1. So I think we should no-lynch at some point, and I don't see a good reason to delay that until Tomorrow. The counter for that, of course, is for scum to simply refuse to nightkill, but that won't work because then our PR will simply investigate everyone and then claim. So scum has to kill, and I think having one person die is better for Town than two at this stage.
So while yes I'd prefer to lynch scum, no-lynching is something we have to do to maximise the odds sometimes, and I think now is the right time to do it.
As long as it is a VT that dies. We can basically control that via lynching (claims and all that) but not with NKs.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
The fact that you're mistaken Town?
Vote: Twisted
No, the possibility that I'm town. But I see that Ash addressed that possibility now that I'm reading his posts. But yeah, not a scum slip, and yea, Ash is still scum.
-
Is understanding the plan Towny or scummy?
I think it's pretty neutral of alignment.
Although, scum might have wanted to jump on board since they knew their partner was probably getting lynched.
Nkirbit's position on Chairs' wagon makes me think that Chairs is probably town, so we had two town wagons D1. I'd expect scum to probably split the wagons in that case, and that there's at least one scum on Voltaire's wagon (and probably there's a scum who got on Voltaire's wagon pretty early, too.)
Why? Can you validate that statement with actual reasons or do you just expect us to accept this as fact?
Nkirbit was a major pusher of Chairs' wagon. Volt made the initial post about Chairs' scumminess, which Nkirbit then ran with. He pushed that wagon, when the alternative was pushing Volt's wagon.
Yes, bussing is a thing. But I don't think scum would bus that hard D1, when the alternative was town. If chairs was scum, I believe that Nkirbit, as his buddy, would have switched to Volt / gotten off of chairs. He didn't. Therefore, I can conclude that Chairs is, in fact, town.
Plus, the end of the day totally felt like we were choosing between two town lynches.
-
So what is the final verdict on the no lynch thing? Can both Ash and TA or Jimmmmm answer that, please?
I think no lynch probablllyyy makes no the sense. It really doesn't make a difference to me whether we lynch Ash today or tomorrow.
-
I guess I may as well Vote: no lynch.
-
vote: TA for bold faced lies and painting himself into a scum corner (with probable partner, Eevee).
On mobile now, will blow up TA's lies soon.
Sooo what you're saying here is that I'm scum who proclaims a town read on his buddy this easily, to go for one mislynch? I realize that if you flip town, I'm probably the lynch the next day. The fact that you're calling this a scum move, immediately, and then proclaiming Eevee my partner, rather than considering the case that I could just be mistaken town, makes me even more confident (and I was pretty confident before)
-
I guess I may as well Vote: no lynch.
Do you actually think that I'm scum and that I scum slipped?
-
I guess I may as well Vote: no lynch.
Do you actually think that I'm scum and that I scum slipped?
It read to me that you were trying to convince ash that you were mistaken Town. If you were convinced he was scum, why would you care what he thinks?
-
I guess I may as well Vote: no lynch.
Do you actually think that I'm scum and that I scum slipped?
It read to me that you were trying to convince ash that you were mistaken Town. If you were convinced he was scum, why would you care what he thinks?
I think the damning part of the slip is the "mistaken" part is taken as a given, because TA knows I'm town. He's banking on playing the mistaken town card after I flip.
-
UoS, Mcmc, Ash, Shraeye, Eevee, Jimmm, TA, Chairs, and Voltaire all vote Ash at some point, with several players unvoting...
Now, that's a lot of people to vote for one person. But we know that UoS, Shraeye, and Volt were all town, and Ash's vote doesn't really count. That leaves TA, Eevee, Jimmm, and Mcmc...
Here are two lines of interest from the next two paragraphs. It is here, buried among a lot of nothing, where TA works his manipulation magic. He lists all players who voted for me, together. He visually and theoretically puts all nine players in one group. Then he breaks it down a full seven lines down, pointing out who we now know are town, and who may not yet be.
But that's the extent of the delving he does. This portion of his DBZ screams "look at all the townies that thought Ash was scum!" when in fact, not all of them did. Voltaire, easily my biggest detractor on D1 after TA, was unsure of his scum!read by the end of D1. Shraeye was pretty clearly convinced I was town from the beginning.
He also doesn't mention, AT ALL, the other players in the game, namely Robz and raerae, both of whom were staunchly in my corner.
In sum: TA selectively used the names of our dearly departed in a way to paint me as scummy. They aren't here to correct him. TA ignores their opinions and uses their voting records to try and support his scumread on me. He tied those points back into the plan argument, which was a flashpoint and probably the most vivid memory from D1. It is misleading and manipulative in nature, which is inherently scummy.
Honestly, to be frank, I don't care what dead townies thought about you, whether you were town or scum. I have more information than they did. That's nothing against them, but me knowing they were town, while they couldn't know I was town, means that my reads are much more likely to be correct.
The fact that you're using dead townies town-reads as a defense is pretty irrelevant. What IS relevant, though, is that I believe your wagon was a townie-driven one. Especially D1, scum is more likely to be hit by a townie-driven wagon than a scum-driven wagon. The fact that your wagon is one I believe was largely filled by town makes it more likely that you're scum.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
The fact that you're mistaken Town?
Vote: Twisted
No, the possibility that I'm town. But I see that Ash addressed that possibility now that I'm reading his posts. But yeah, not a scum slip, and yea, Ash is still scum.
"Fact" and "possibility" are so close together in spelling, I see how you made that typo.
Again, it is definitely a slip. "The fact that I'm mistaken town" makes sense only if you are scum trying to look like mistaken town. Otherwise, you are just town, since you wouldn't know my alignment. Arguing you are "mistaken town" before everyone else knows I'm town is the slip.
-
Now, despite the fact that he claimed to have no problem being the lynch, Ash was still actively scumhunting, and putting suspicion on people who voted him for inadequate reasons. To me, this is NOT the behavior of someone who wanted to get lynched.
I've bolded the ridiculousness for you. Ash is scumhunting, it means he's scum! In the immortal words of mail-mi: lolwut?
I'm not using the fact that you were scumhunting to say that you were scummy. I'm using it to say that you were still very interested in winning the game (or appearing like you were trying to win the game), which directly contradicted your self-vote. Hence, you never wanted to be lynched, and your self-vote was a gambit.
-
Honestly, to be frank, I don't care what dead townies thought about you, whether you were town or scum. I have more information than they did. That's nothing against them, but me knowing they were town, while they couldn't know I was town, means that my reads are much more likely to be correct.
And the slips keep coming! Only scum have more information than town, dude.
-
In post #379, Nkirbit offers his opinion on the Ash wagon. He offers the opinion that he thinks Ash is probably town, and he finds the people on the wagon suspicious. In post #382, he finds Mcmc and Chairs scummiest for their positions on the Ash wagon. This is interesting, because Nkirbit doesn't attempt to actually individually dissuade anyone's argument. He doesn't take the stance that people on the wagon could be mistakenly casting their votes, and trying to dissuade them (similar to what Robz, a town member, did.) Rather, he goes right to scum hunting among Ash's wagon. This seems too predatory a position, to me. It's asserting that he KNOWS Ash is town, and that there's scum pushing his wagon, rather that it's possible a bunch of mistaken townies, or that Ash really could be scum. That amount of certainty makes sense, given that Nkirbit was scum, and also leads me to believe he was trying to redirect from a scum buddy.
Here, TA tries to use nkirbit to make me scum. I believe that studying nkirbit's interactions are important, so I get what he's doing. But he's doing it with the express purpose of painting me as scummy. I think you can all agree there.
Let's break this down. nkirbit "thinks Ash is probably town" is not a strike against me, given nkirbit knows who all the town are. "He finds mcmc and chairs scummiest" for where they are on my wagon? Where were they on my wagon, anyway? Oh right, you fail to mention that. Why? Because mcmc, in fact, hopped on and off the wagon twice with very little time actually on the wagon. mcmc's "position" on the wagon is undefined as best, due to voting/unvoting. In the end, mcmc is another player that gave up his scumread at the time. But TA here uses "mcmc's position on the wagon" as a way to point to MY scumminess? How? Unless mcmc is scum trying to bus, mcmc's actions look like emotional reactions or scum trying to help my wagon along, but neither makes sense if we're partners.
The next bolded bit, well, nkirbit DID KNOW I was town. From there to end, he makes a great case for why nkirbit is scum. But we already know that. He makes the point that nkirbit knows I am town, so he tried to redirect votes away from me, his scum buddy. That's a ridiculous contradiction, man. Does he know I'm town, or does he know I'm his buddy? He can't know both, since they can't both be true. And he wouldn't fake one or the other, since either one being faked doesn't help his cause.
This is a failagraph.
I'm saying that Nkirbit overplayed his hand in trying to move the vote away from you. In pretending to be town, he overplayed it to the point where it came off like he "knew" you were town.
-
Now, despite the fact that he claimed to have no problem being the lynch, Ash was still actively scumhunting, and putting suspicion on people who voted him for inadequate reasons. To me, this is NOT the behavior of someone who wanted to get lynched.
I've bolded the ridiculousness for you. Ash is scumhunting, it means he's scum! In the immortal words of mail-mi: lolwut?
I'm not using the fact that you were scumhunting to say that you were scummy. I'm using it to say that you were still very interested in winning the game (or appearing like you were trying to win the game), which directly contradicted your self-vote. Hence, you never wanted to be lynched, and your self-vote was a gambit.
I've voted for myself in at least half a dozen games. It's never led to my lynch. I have been on my own lynch wagon once before, I think. Always town.
Voting for one's self is a way of strenously making a point. It gets people to listen. It means you are serious about something. It's a stupid thing to do as a scum gambit.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
Yes, quoting what "scum does all the time" isn't able to be manipulated at all. I think putting a player in the dead center middle null, like you did with Nkirbit, is a likely place to put scum partners.
-
While we're talking about the possibility of bussing etc, let me remind/inform you of Bankers, in which we lynched scum in Day 1, and followed up with a lot of discussion about possible bussing. I was off-wagon Town arguing that scum were not more likely to be off wagon than on. It turned out that 2 of the remaining 3 scum were in fact on the wagon. Different situation, I know, and fewer scum probably means that they're less likely to bus. But in principal most scum are willing to lose a partner if it means that the remaining scum will be seen as more Towny.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
Yes, quoting what "scum does all the time" isn't able to be manipulated at all. I think putting a player in the dead center middle null, like you did with Nkirbit, is a likely place to put scum partners.
In the most recent blitz game, I had the scum team in the dead middle of my reads, and I was the Doctor. What's your point? Mine is that these lists aren't fullproof ways to catch fish, let alone scum.
-
I've voted for myself in at least half a dozen games. It's never led to my lynch.
This would seem to indicate that it's in fact not a stupid thing to do as scum.
-
While we're talking about the possibility of bussing etc, let me remind/inform you of Bankers, in which we lynched scum in Day 1, and followed up with a lot of discussion about possible bussing. I was off-wagon Town arguing that scum were not more likely to be off wagon than on. It turned out that 2 of the remaining 3 scum were in fact on the wagon. Different situation, I know, and fewer scum probably means that they're less likely to bus. But in principal most scum are willing to lose a partner if it means that the remaining scum will be seen as more Towny.
Useful point if we lynch scum again. In the case of D2, it's less useful. I do think those players that immediately jumped to vote nkirbit are more likely to be scum than those that were wary. Scum knew nkirbit was scum, so they wouldn't question anything. If you didn't know nkirbit was scum, you had reason to at least run through all the possibilities.
-
I've voted for myself in at least half a dozen games. It's never led to my lynch.
This would seem to indicate that it's in fact not a stupid thing to do as scum.
You'd think it would have caught up with me by now. And yet, in all the games I've played as scum, I haven't self-voted. Too risky, man.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
Yes, quoting what "scum does all the time" isn't able to be manipulated at all. I think putting a player in the dead center middle null, like you did with Nkirbit, is a likely place to put scum partners.
In the most recent blitz game, I had the scum team in the dead middle of my reads, and I was the Doctor. What's your point? Mine is that these lists aren't fullproof ways to catch fish, let alone scum.
I actually think in general, in the middle of Townies' reads is where scum are likely to be, since most scum know how to avoid saying things which people will perceive as scummy, but at the same time it's relatively rare for scum to be able to come across as super Towny.
-
If we no lynch today, then mislynch me tomorrow, we still have lylo on D5 to lynch TA, right?
If the majority of town needs my flip to confirm TA's mafia alignment, I say we skip the no lynch.
-
So my preference for today:
1) Lynch TA.
2) If not 1, lynch ashersky.
3) If not 1 or 2, no lynch.
-
In #774, Ash states that he believes the Chairs lynch is a convenience lynch. In #777, he clarifies, saying that he meant it's an "Easy lynch for scum to push through to save a partner." The obvious implication is that Voltaire could be likely scum. Not scummy in itself, I also firmly believed Chairs to be VT. Yet, with Volt at L-3 and Chairs at L-1, he holds off on voting for Volt. This is the scummy part. If he really felt that strongly about Chairs v. Volt, I think he'd have moved to Voltaire much, much, much more quickly. Yet he waited until Volt was at L-1 to cast the hammer. This reads more like a scum who doesn't care which town lynch goes through rather than a town member waiting (since he had made it very clear how he felt on Voltaire vs. Chairs, and Volt had been in his "would-lynch" category most of the day.
Final explanatory paragraph from TA. The first bolded line shows how we shared an opinion that chairs is a VT. He makes clear that portion of this is "not scummy in itself." The second bold is "the scummy part." But look at his wording here. "he'd have moved to Voltaire..." is a manipulation of the facts and a lie. The implication was that I was on chairs and didn't move to Voltaire soon enough. The issue here is, I was generally on mcmc or TA for most of the day.
You could argue that he just meant move my vote from wherever it was TO Voltaire. Right? No. Look at the unbolded line before it. "Yet, with Volt at L-3 and Chairs at L-1, he holds off on voting for Volt." A different sentence construction, which was accurate when compared to what he used in the "scummy part." A deliberate adverb change which makes me seem scummy. This is scum manipulation at its most subtle and best.
Hammering Voltaire, instead of being the L-2 vote, is not scummy. I don't see in what universe that makes me scum. I was never voting for Chairs, that was clear. When I voted for Volt matters only in relation to what else I was trying to accomplish, which was lynching mcmc, or you. But again, you leave out the context for the sake of strengthening your "case."
No, what matters is that you decided to not vote Voltaire, when you had Voltaire in your "would lynch" category, and you claimed that Chairs was a convenience lynch, possibly to redirect from a partner. Your votes and your words were not aligned.
It's very clear what I meant, I know you were never on Chairs, and I hope everyone else does, too. Sorry if my sentence structure / adverb use didn't make that clear. My adverbs are just out of control, man
-
If we no lynch today, then mislynch me tomorrow, we still have lylo on D5 to lynch TA, right?
If the majority of town needs my flip to confirm TA's mafia alignment, I say we skip the no lynch.
I think it's pretty safe to say that scum won't NK either of you, so if one of you is scum and the other Town, then any combination of lynching both of you and no-lynching will result in a 2-1 lylo. I'm not saying we should necessarily do that, but regardless, the argument for no-lynching first is that no-lynching is significantly better while we still have our PR. No-lynching sooner gives scum fewer chances to take out our PR before we no-lynch.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
The fact that you're mistaken Town?
Vote: Twisted
No, the possibility that I'm town. But I see that Ash addressed that possibility now that I'm reading his posts. But yeah, not a scum slip, and yea, Ash is still scum.
"Fact" and "possibility" are so close together in spelling, I see how you made that typo.
Again, it is definitely a slip. "The fact that I'm mistaken town" makes sense only if you are scum trying to look like mistaken town. Otherwise, you are just town, since you wouldn't know my alignment. Arguing you are "mistaken town" before everyone else knows I'm town is the slip.
I wish "scumslips" didn't happen. People make slips when they type. 10/13 people in each game are town. So I'd guess that that many "scumslips" are actually "townslips". You're also all the same group of people who insist that scum edit posts and town don't, so that would tilt it even more
but hey, we can talk about this after the game, when it's over. Scum slips are just such a ridiculous argument, when it happens when you're thinking about so many things in a mafia game.
Ultimately I cna't convince you that wasn't a slip, you'll just have to take my word for it, which I know you won't.
-
If we no lynch today, then mislynch me tomorrow, we still have lylo on D5 to lynch TA, right?
If the majority of town needs my flip to confirm TA's mafia alignment, I say we skip the no lynch.
I think it's pretty safe to say that scum won't NK either of you, so if one of you is scum and the other Town, then any combination of lynching both of you and no-lynching will result in a 2-1 lylo. I'm not saying we should necessarily do that, but regardless, the argument for no-lynching first is that no-lynching is significantly better while we still have our PR. No-lynching sooner gives scum fewer chances to take out our PR before we no-lynch.
But isn't the chance we lose the PR the same whether we no lynch or not? Or are you arguing that if we lynch a VT, it narrows the pool of possible PRs for scum tonight?
-
Honestly, to be frank, I don't care what dead townies thought about you, whether you were town or scum. I have more information than they did. That's nothing against them, but me knowing they were town, while they couldn't know I was town, means that my reads are much more likely to be correct.
And the slips keep coming! Only scum have more information than town, dude.
Um. No.
I know that Shraeye is town. I know that Voltaire is town.
When they were alive, Shraeye did not know I was town. Voltaire did not know I was town.
Thus, at this point, I have more information than them. Thus, I trust my reads more than theirs.
Keep searching for your "scumslips"
-
Honestly, to be frank, I don't care what dead townies thought about you, whether you were town or scum. I have more information than they did. That's nothing against them, but me knowing they were town, while they couldn't know I was town, means that my reads are much more likely to be correct.
And the slips keep coming! Only scum have more information than town, dude.
Um. No.
I know that Shraeye is town. I know that Voltaire is town.
When they were alive, Shraeye did not know I was town. Voltaire did not know I was town.
Thus, at this point, I have more information than them. Thus, I trust my reads more than theirs.
Keep searching for your "scumslips"
In fact, I explained this, IN THE NEXT SENTENCE.
You are digging for dirt that's not there man
-
I wish "scumslips" didn't happen. People make slips when they type. 10/13 people in each game are town. So I'd guess that that many "scumslips" are actually "townslips". You're also all the same group of people who insist that scum edit posts and town don't, so that would tilt it even more
but hey, we can talk about this after the game, when it's over. Scum slips are just such a ridiculous argument, when it happens when you're thinking about so many things in a mafia game.
Ultimately I cna't convince you that wasn't a slip, you'll just have to take my word for it, which I know you won't.
But scumslips do happen. Scum have been caught multiple times via scum slips. You weren't here yet for a few famous ones, but we had nkirbit in StP1 most recently. They happen, we can't ignore them.
-
Now, despite the fact that he claimed to have no problem being the lynch, Ash was still actively scumhunting, and putting suspicion on people who voted him for inadequate reasons. To me, this is NOT the behavior of someone who wanted to get lynched.
I've bolded the ridiculousness for you. Ash is scumhunting, it means he's scum! In the immortal words of mail-mi: lolwut?
I'm not using the fact that you were scumhunting to say that you were scummy. I'm using it to say that you were still very interested in winning the game (or appearing like you were trying to win the game), which directly contradicted your self-vote. Hence, you never wanted to be lynched, and your self-vote was a gambit.
I've voted for myself in at least half a dozen games. It's never led to my lynch. I have been on my own lynch wagon once before, I think. Always town.
Voting for one's self is a way of strenously making a point. It gets people to listen. It means you are serious about something. It's a stupid thing to do as a scum gambit.
Right, but as you say, you've never been lynched. If it works as town, surely you'd try it as scum sometime. I think this is the game.
-
Man, I hope you do mislynch me for this. That way, when I pull it off as scum in some other game, it'll be that much sweeter.
-
So my preference for today:
1) Lynch TA.
2) If not 1, lynch ashersky.
3) If not 1 or 2, no lynch.
Why would lynching yourself be near the top of the list? We're actually scumhunting now, we're not doing theory talk. What's your objection now to our gameplay?
-
Man, I hope you do mislynch me for this. That way, when I pull it off as scum in some other game, it'll be that much sweeter.
And I hope I nail you here. But I'm also scared that we're turning this into a you-or-me situation, and scum is more than happy to sit back and let that happen. I'm like 95% sure you're scum, but I'm not positive, and I think no-lynch is probably the correct decision here.
The thing is, if you're town, I'd fully expect no other cases to come up today, and that's kind of what's happening right now.
But I'm just psyching myself out cause you're tootalllyyyyy scum.
-
Man, I hope you do mislynch me for this. That way, when I pull it off as scum in some other game, it'll be that much sweeter.
And I hope I nail you here. But I'm also scared that we're turning this into a you-or-me situation, and scum is more than happy to sit back and let that happen. I'm like 95% sure you're scum, but I'm not positive, and I think no-lynch is probably the correct decision here.
The thing is, if you're town, I'd fully expect no other cases to come up today, and that's kind of what's happening right now.
But I'm just psyching myself out cause you're tootalllyyyyy scum.
It's definitely you or me at this point. There isn't even anything to talk about. That's the worst thing about your stupid Hider plan. D2 is useless.
D1 is too long to re-read. We're stuck here and scum will win, unless we lynch TA.
-
Man, I hope you do mislynch me for this. That way, when I pull it off as scum in some other game, it'll be that much sweeter.
And I hope I nail you here. But I'm also scared that we're turning this into a you-or-me situation, and scum is more than happy to sit back and let that happen. I'm like 95% sure you're scum, but I'm not positive, and I think no-lynch is probably the correct decision here.
The thing is, if you're town, I'd fully expect no other cases to come up today, and that's kind of what's happening right now.
But I'm just psyching myself out cause you're tootalllyyyyy scum.
It's definitely you or me at this point. There isn't even anything to talk about. That's the worst thing about your stupid Hider plan. D2 is useless.
D1 is too long to re-read. We're stuck here and scum will win, unless we lynch TA.
We lynched a scum D2.
I disagree with literally every point in this post, but oh well.
-
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
This was TA's last post of D2, for what that's worth. It sounds like he's frustrated to lose a partner, and especially so if it was dumb luck and NOT actually the plan that caught him.
-
Man, I hope you do mislynch me for this. That way, when I pull it off as scum in some other game, it'll be that much sweeter.
And I hope I nail you here. But I'm also scared that we're turning this into a you-or-me situation, and scum is more than happy to sit back and let that happen. I'm like 95% sure you're scum, but I'm not positive, and I think no-lynch is probably the correct decision here.
The thing is, if you're town, I'd fully expect no other cases to come up today, and that's kind of what's happening right now.
But I'm just psyching myself out cause you're tootalllyyyyy scum.
It's definitely you or me at this point. There isn't even anything to talk about. That's the worst thing about your stupid Hider plan. D2 is useless.
D1 is too long to re-read. We're stuck here and scum will win, unless we lynch TA.
We lynched a scum D2.
I disagree with literally every point in this post, but oh well.
Yes, we did lynch scum D2. That's good, but has zero bearing on finding scum today, unfortunately. Eevee was super scummy in twilight, but not much else sticks out to me.
-
Scumslips have never ever caught anyone. Mail-mi the godfather would be the closest, but that was more of an actual slip for being too excited in a favorable situation than a typo that somehow creeped to the text because your subconscious knows you are scum.
Ashersky, why are you unable to realize that any argument starting with "you are wrong, I only choose to self vote as town so me choosing to self vote makes me obvtown" is pretty non-convincing.
Everyone, fwiw, ashersky has taken issue with me saying "ash isn't self voting, so he is probably scum", so clearly his view on this subject is whatever makes him seem towniest at that particular game.
Ash is clearly over reaching, whether TA is scum or bot. But that being said, the first scumslip ash pointed out actually was a bit worrisome and I would have suspected ash heavily in the recent blitz as well, so I'm in favor of nolynch as well. Smaller towns function better.
-
I'm really not qualified to say if hider as a role is overpowered or not, but it seems pretty clear to me that all the guys who spent all those posts and all that time perfecting a plan for us helped us lynch scum without any discussion day 2. I would say those who tried to shut down such discussion day 1 should really reconsider their stance (and quite frankly their attitude), as lynching scum day 2 without outing any power roles is pretty damn awesome, yeah!
Last post of D2. Eevee is thanking folks for ensuring there was no meaningful discussion on D2. Only scum would want that, right?
Separate the successful lynch from the rest of what happened on D2. It was a waste of a day, and all it really ended up being was an extremely long night with 2 town deaths that sandwiched a scum death. We're days further from D1 and no closer to catching the third scum member after TA's dead.
-
Right, but you're bemoaning the fact that we don't have a D2 to go and re-read, while simultaneously saying that D1 is too long to be useful. We can still basically use D1 as our most recent day, since D2 didn't change anything other than having a random lynch as a result of the hider plan. Why is re-reading D1 impossible, while not having a D2 to re-read bad? It's still only one day to re-read, either way.
-
Scumslips have never ever caught anyone. Mail-mi the godfather would be the closest, but that was more of an actual slip for being too excited in a favorable situation than a typo that somehow creeped to the text because your subconscious knows you are scum.
Lies. Captain_Frisk and his 0% chance of flipping town want a word with you.
-
Right, but you're bemoaning the fact that we don't have a D2 to go and re-read, while simultaneously saying that D1 is too long to be useful. We can still basically use D1 as our most recent day, since D2 didn't change anything other than having a random lynch as a result of the hider plan. Why is re-reading D1 impossible, while not having a D2 to re-read bad? It's still only one day to re-read, either way.
2 separate complaints, really. Long days are a bother for everyone. I think we all agree there. That's just unfortunate.
D2 being non-existent is another bother. I mean, it doesn't many anyone scum, obviously, but I can complain about it nonetheless.
-
Scumslips have never ever caught anyone. Mail-mi the godfather would be the closest, but that was more of an actual slip for being too excited in a favorable situation than a typo that somehow creeped to the text because your subconscious knows you are scum.
Ashersky, why are you unable to realize that any argument starting with "you are wrong, I only choose to self vote as town so me choosing to self vote makes me obvtown" is pretty non-convincing.
Everyone, fwiw, ashersky has taken issue with me saying "ash isn't self voting, so he is probably scum", so clearly his view on this subject is whatever makes him seem towniest at that particular game.
Ash is clearly over reaching, whether TA is scum or bot. But that being said, the first scumslip ash pointed out actually was a bit worrisome and I would have suspected ash heavily in the recent blitz as well, so I'm in favor of nolynch as well. Smaller towns function better.
As for the rest, you have been there when I get accused of being scum for NOT self-voting. It's like you getting called out for not buddying enough. You end up having to buddy to get back to a null read. That's the problem with having such well-known metas.
How you say I am "over reaching" but TA is not I don't get.
-
Right, but you're bemoaning the fact that we don't have a D2 to go and re-read, while simultaneously saying that D1 is too long to be useful. We can still basically use D1 as our most recent day, since D2 didn't change anything other than having a random lynch as a result of the hider plan. Why is re-reading D1 impossible, while not having a D2 to re-read bad? It's still only one day to re-read, either way.
2 separate complaints, really. Long days are a bother for everyone. I think we all agree there. That's just unfortunate.
D2 being non-existent is another bother. I mean, it doesn't many anyone scum, obviously, but I can complain about it nonetheless.
Right, but why can't D1 just replace D2 in this instance? It's the most recent day of scum-hunting, but instead, we have 5 flips to go off of, rather than the normal 2 flips. Isn't that a lot better?
-
It really is wrong to blame me for us not having a day 2 as you guys had already hammered before I had a chance to post anything.
But the hider plan catching scum so handily we didn't even need to discuss it rocked. It being a week since I last had to formulate reads in this game means that it takes a bit longer for me to get back to the groove here and everyone knows how scum loves disinterested towns. If TA-ash(-me) is town on town (on town), scum is so loving this.
I agree with ash about hider plans making day 1 a pain to reread. We should at least check snow's awesome summaries though, did anyone take a note of their post numbers?
-
Ash, why would you rather lynch yourself than no-lynch today?
In most instances (disregrding your read on me) do you think no-lynch would be preferably with 8 alive and no additional kills / kill blocking?
-
Right, but you're bemoaning the fact that we don't have a D2 to go and re-read, while simultaneously saying that D1 is too long to be useful. We can still basically use D1 as our most recent day, since D2 didn't change anything other than having a random lynch as a result of the hider plan. Why is re-reading D1 impossible, while not having a D2 to re-read bad? It's still only one day to re-read, either way.
2 separate complaints, really. Long days are a bother for everyone. I think we all agree there. That's just unfortunate.
D2 being non-existent is another bother. I mean, it doesn't many anyone scum, obviously, but I can complain about it nonetheless.
Right, but why can't D1 just replace D2 in this instance? It's the most recent day of scum-hunting, but instead, we have 5 flips to go off of, rather than the normal 2 flips. Isn't that a lot better?
The way scum acted on D1 cannot take into account the knowledge of Voltaire's role, or that nkirbit would die, or that UoS was the Hider. There's not much there.
What is good about subsequent days is that everyone is posting with more knowledge. It's like D1 happened regularly, then we skipped to D3 with everyone dead, but no new information.
Yes, we can read D1 with the hindsight of confirmed townies and one confirmed scum. It's all we can do. It just isn't as good as having more than one day.
-
Yeah, but what's done is done. And we're probably not helping the thread for readability later with our back and forth honestly, I think we've both made our points.
-
Scumslips have never ever caught anyone. Mail-mi the godfather would be the closest, but that was more of an actual slip for being too excited in a favorable situation than a typo that somehow creeped to the text because your subconscious knows you are scum.
Lies. Captain_Frisk and his 0% chance of flipping town want a word with you.
He was going on a rant, upset about the fact he was getting lynched for "the wrong reasons". The lynch was a done deal before that, he had already behaved in whatever incriminating way.
You saying "I'm town when I self vote, but not scummier when I don't" just doesn't compute. Which is it? If self-voting should make you obvtown to all townies, isn't it very favorable for ashersky to self vote as scum? What would be stopping you?
-
It was going to be near-impossible to have any kind of a real day 2 after everyone realized we had caught scum. I don't even know if it can be called unfortunate, although often we start killing scum day 3 and never miss after that (in the games we win).
-
Ash, why would you rather lynch yourself than no-lynch today?
In most instances (disregrding your read on me) do you think no-lynch would be preferably with 8 alive and no additional kills / kill blocking?
I get the feeling that I must die to get everyone to see the light that I'm telling the truth. If that's what it takes to catch you, I am willing to do it, and feel like it's better than waiting. That's why.
From a pure theory perspective, I understand the appeal of a no lynch today. It provides the remaining PR with an opportunity. It reduces the pool of possible mislynches by one night kill. I also see the risks: the PR could be NK'ed, obviously, or scum could force our hand by no-killing.
Here's something to remember in all this. According to someone, we have a 50% chance we have a psychologist. That role says that, if scum have already performed a kill, they return as innocent. Given we've had two kills and there are only two scum, it is VERY possible that the psychologist is a named VT at this point. Sure, one scum could have done both kills, but with the Watcher dead, they had no reason not to spread the kills out to ensure maximum safety. Even if nkirbit did the N1 kill, the N3 kill can be done by the one who hasn't killed yet, and they will return innocent to the psychologist, given yuma's order of resolution has investigations AFTER killing.
Actually, the psychologist is guaranteed to NEVER catch scum at this point in the game. So scum has the 50% chance there's a Detective in the game, which of course is deadly to them, and 50% chance we're all VTs.
Scum has a 1/6 chance of killing the PR, reads notwithstanding.
They might decide that the distraction of no-kill is worth it, given only a 1/6 chance of hitting a 50% PR. It's basically 1/12 chance they kill the Detective, if there is one.
So, if we can bank on scum killing tonight, and killing a VT/Psychologist, then a No Lynch is helpful to town.
If scum kills the Detective, or no-kills, a No Lynch is not helpful to town.
-
Scumslips have never ever caught anyone. Mail-mi the godfather would be the closest, but that was more of an actual slip for being too excited in a favorable situation than a typo that somehow creeped to the text because your subconscious knows you are scum.
Lies. Captain_Frisk and his 0% chance of flipping town want a word with you.
He was going on a rant, upset about the fact he was getting lynched for "the wrong reasons". The lynch was a done deal before that, he had already behaved in whatever incriminating way.
Either Insom or joth had a scumslip in a game I was in, and he went "welp" and self-voted and didn't post anymore. Can't recall which one is was.
At any rate, we will continue to point out scum slips and they will continue to be ignored by everyone. Scum should never worry about slips.
-
You saying "I'm town when I self vote, but not scummier when I don't" just doesn't compute. Which is it? If self-voting should make you obvtown to all townies, isn't it very favorable for ashersky to self vote as scum? What would be stopping you?
It doesn't compute because it isn't fair.
"Ash self-voted? Scum gambit!"
"Ash didn't self-vote yet? Scum playing it safe!"
Lose-lose situation.
-
I don't think that happened, never before they were already caught anyways. Ash, you adding super weak points that clearly hold no water to your arguments just makes me always feel like you are being dishonest and are deliberately using anything you can come up with to point to the other person being scum.
If scum wants to "force our hand" by nokilling, isn't nolynch just strictly better in that case?
-
If we no lynch today, then mislynch me tomorrow, we still have lylo on D5 to lynch TA, right?
If the majority of town needs my flip to confirm TA's mafia alignment, I say we skip the no lynch.
I think it's pretty safe to say that scum won't NK either of you, so if one of you is scum and the other Town, then any combination of lynching both of you and no-lynching will result in a 2-1 lylo. I'm not saying we should necessarily do that, but regardless, the argument for no-lynching first is that no-lynching is significantly better while we still have our PR. No-lynching sooner gives scum fewer chances to take out our PR before we no-lynch.
But isn't the chance we lose the PR the same whether we no lynch or not? Or are you arguing that if we lynch a VT, it narrows the pool of possible PRs for scum tonight?
If we no-lynch Today, scum has to kill Tonight. If we instead lynch today and scum hit the PR Tonight, and we no-lynch Tomorrow, scum can simply refuse to kill, taking away the advantage we could get from no-lynching.
-
Ash, why would you rather lynch yourself than no-lynch today?
In most instances (disregrding your read on me) do you think no-lynch would be preferably with 8 alive and no additional kills / kill blocking?
I get the feeling that I must die to get everyone to see the light that I'm telling the truth. If that's what it takes to catch you, I am willing to do it, and feel like it's better than waiting. That's why.
From a pure theory perspective, I understand the appeal of a no lynch today. It provides the remaining PR with an opportunity. It reduces the pool of possible mislynches by one night kill. I also see the risks: the PR could be NK'ed, obviously, or scum could force our hand by no-killing.
Here's something to remember in all this. According to someone, we have a 50% chance we have a psychologist. That role says that, if scum have already performed a kill, they return as innocent. Given we've had two kills and there are only two scum, it is VERY possible that the psychologist is a named VT at this point. Sure, one scum could have done both kills, but with the Watcher dead, they had no reason not to spread the kills out to ensure maximum safety. Even if nkirbit did the N1 kill, the N3 kill can be done by the one who hasn't killed yet, and they will return innocent to the psychologist, given yuma's order of resolution has investigations AFTER killing.
Actually, the psychologist is guaranteed to NEVER catch scum at this point in the game. So scum has the 50% chance there's a Detective in the game, which of course is deadly to them, and 50% chance we're all VTs.
Scum has a 1/6 chance of killing the PR, reads notwithstanding.
They might decide that the distraction of no-kill is worth it, given only a 1/6 chance of hitting a 50% PR. It's basically 1/12 chance they kill the Detective, if there is one.
So, if we can bank on scum killing tonight, and killing a VT/Psychologist, then a No Lynch is helpful to town.
If scum kills the Detective, or no-kills, a No Lynch is not helpful to town.
No kill would be helpful to town. There's a chance that we don't have a psychologist, but a detective, and town can't protect against BOTH possibilities. I'd be moreee than happy to do 10 no-lynches followed by 10 no-kills, if that's what scum wants to do. But they won't.
Who knows how scum kills are distributed, they will either after tonight have 1 scum who's killed (to guard against detective) or 2 scum who have killed ( to guard against psychologist). but no matter what, there's a greater than 0% chance we gain info with a no lynch / no kill, which means scum no killing would help us. At worst, it does nothing, at best, PR catches scum. So there's no downside there.
Now, there's a possibility that scum kills the PR, which would suck. But I think personally it's worth that risk (only 1/6 odds, maybe better depending on scum's reads)
-
You yourself are saying
"I self-vote, therefore I'm town"
"I don't self-vote, but that has no bearing on my alignment"
A win-win for ash, and also a locigal fallacy.
-
Vote: No-lynch
-
It's 5 to lynch, right?
No Lynch is at L-2.
-
No kill would be helpful to town. There's a chance that we don't have a psychologist, but a detective, and town can't protect against BOTH possibilities. I'd be moreee than happy to do 10 no-lynches followed by 10 no-kills, if that's what scum wants to do. But they won't.
Who knows how scum kills are distributed, they will either after tonight have 1 scum who's killed (to guard against detective) or 2 scum who have killed ( to guard against psychologist). but no matter what, there's a greater than 0% chance we gain info with a no lynch / no kill, which means scum no killing would help us. At worst, it does nothing, at best, PR catches scum. So there's no downside there.
Now, there's a possibility that scum kills the PR, which would suck. But I think personally it's worth that risk (only 1/6 odds, maybe better depending on scum's reads)
Thanks. I specifically put that post out there to try to get scum to no kill by giving some logic behind why it was better for them to no kill than to kill. Both you and Jimmmmm made sure to tell scum that they have to kill.
Of course it's in town's interest to have a no kill. The idea was to convince scum of the opposite, or at least seed enough doubt that it might have affected their judgement. We've had no kill nights before in other games.
-
It's 5 to lynch, right?
No Lynch is at L-2.
Yup. we should absolutely not vote no-lynch through, if that's what we're doing, until we've gotten a chance to hear from everyone today.
-
It's 5 to lynch, right?
No Lynch is at L-2.
Yup. we should absolutely not vote no-lynch through, if that's what we're doing, until we've gotten a chance to hear from everyone today.
Who's left that hasn't posted? Just mcmc?
-
No kill would be helpful to town. There's a chance that we don't have a psychologist, but a detective, and town can't protect against BOTH possibilities. I'd be moreee than happy to do 10 no-lynches followed by 10 no-kills, if that's what scum wants to do. But they won't.
Who knows how scum kills are distributed, they will either after tonight have 1 scum who's killed (to guard against detective) or 2 scum who have killed ( to guard against psychologist). but no matter what, there's a greater than 0% chance we gain info with a no lynch / no kill, which means scum no killing would help us. At worst, it does nothing, at best, PR catches scum. So there's no downside there.
Now, there's a possibility that scum kills the PR, which would suck. But I think personally it's worth that risk (only 1/6 odds, maybe better depending on scum's reads)
Thanks. I specifically put that post out there to try to get scum to no kill by giving some logic behind why it was better for them to no kill than to kill. Both you and Jimmmmm made sure to tell scum that they have to kill.
Of course it's in town's interest to have a no kill. The idea was to convince scum of the opposite, or at least seed enough doubt that it might have affected their judgement. We've had no kill nights before in other games.
I give our scum more credit than you do apparently. Of course they know they have to kill, everyone in this game is pretty dang smart, they would have obviously figured this out.
-
It's 5 to lynch, right?
No Lynch is at L-2.
Yup. we should absolutely not vote no-lynch through, if that's what we're doing, until we've gotten a chance to hear from everyone today.
Who's left that hasn't posted? Just mcmc?
Yeah, plus we havne't really heard much from Chairs either, and Lio said he was waiting to weigh in until you finished making your argument
-
Thanks. I specifically put that post out there to try to get scum to no kill by giving some logic behind why it was better for them to no kill than to kill. Both you and Jimmmmm made sure to tell scum that they have to kill.
I see no reason to try to hide things that will be extremely obvious to scum and not necessarily as obvious to Townies.
-
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
This was TA's last post of D2, for what that's worth. It sounds like he's frustrated to lose a partner, and especially so if it was dumb luck and NOT actually the plan that caught him.
I'm really not qualified to say if hider as a role is overpowered or not, but it seems pretty clear to me that all the guys who spent all those posts and all that time perfecting a plan for us helped us lynch scum without any discussion day 2. I would say those who tried to shut down such discussion day 1 should really reconsider their stance (and quite frankly their attitude), as lynching scum day 2 without outing any power roles is pretty damn awesome, yeah!
Last post of D2. Eevee is thanking folks for ensuring there was no meaningful discussion on D2. Only scum would want that, right?
Separate the successful lynch from the rest of what happened on D2. It was a waste of a day, and all it really ended up being was an extremely long night with 2 town deaths that sandwiched a scum death. We're days further from D1 and no closer to catching the third scum member after TA's dead.
Bringing up these two quotes reminds me of Dsell from D2 of ZM14, when he was the impending lynch. Basically, he kept bringing up posts that weren't really scummy at all, trying to paint them in a scummy light hoping that someone, anyone would latch on to it. He kept bringing up posts from earlier, that were completely unrelated to alignment (one example is that he brought up a post of me congratulating the ICs. This reads similarly to me saying "I hope UoS didn't screw up!"), and trying to paint them scummy.
Bringing these up to try to paint Eevee and I as scummy is pretty darn weak, Ash is really reaching here. Those are posts that could absolutely be made by either scum or town, and Ash is trying to paint them as scummy.
-
Hrm. So no-lynch gives us (basically) one more VT to protect our PR, assuming the PR isn't just a named VT at this point, right?
Downside being that if we could lynch Mafia we'd be down to 1 Mafia member left, whereas if we don't lynch we leave both of them up (but protect ourselves from a VT or PR mislynch).
We haven't seen the psychtective flip, and so far there's been no obvious breadcrumb for it, so I'm tentatively in favor of the no-lynch day.
-
Those are posts that could absolutely be made by either scum or town, and Ash is trying to paint them as scummy.
Every post of every game could be made by either scum or town. I am pointing out ones I think were made by scum. It seems useless to point out ones that look like they were made by town, unless that townie was an impending lynch.
Look, if you are so so so so sure I'm scum, why aren't you voting for me? Why opt for No Lynch when you have scum caught dead to rights, according to you? You keep saying I'm scummy, that my reasons are weak, but you aren't pushing for my lynch, and are instead going along with town. Safe play, scum.
I'd rather you go out on your limb and get my mislynch through. That's the better trade off for you, if you are scum. You'd rather mislynch me today, get your kill today, then die tomorrow, TA. And you know that we know that, so you are voting no lynch instead. Nice WIFOM, man.
-
Hrm. So no-lynch gives us (basically) one more VT to protect our PR, assuming the PR isn't just a named VT at this point, right?
Downside being that if we could lynch Mafia we'd be down to 1 Mafia member left, whereas if we don't lynch we leave both of them up (but protect ourselves from a VT or PR mislynch).
We haven't seen the psychtective flip, and so far there's been no obvious breadcrumb for it, so I'm tentatively in favor of the no-lynch day.
Chairs, there are no protective roles in this game. Unless you mean "one more VT in the pool of townies from which scum must select the NK." Than maybe.
Here's the thing, and Jimmmmm has pointed this out as well. No way scum NKs me. No way at all. No way scum NKs TA, because TA is scum, and NKing your own team is stupid. (Again, if you believe TA and not me, just flip the names, the situation is the same.)
So, really, what's the situation? 8 alive, 2 scum, 1 PR. Of the 6 townies, only 5 are valid kill targets, removing myself (or TA). So a 20% chance to kill the PR, unless I'm the PR, which would be awesome. If, for some cosmic irony reason, TA is also town, no way they kill either of us, giving them a pool of 4 targets, or 25% chance to hit the PR, unless one of us is the PR, which again, would be awesome.
Mislynch a VT that is not me and those numbers reduce. I get that. But I'm not arguing that we mislynch a townie that is not me. I'm arguing that we lynch TA, who is scum.
-
In addition to that, assume I'm NOT the PR for a second, and then mislynch me.
Scum!TA or unfortunatelywayoffbaseTA doesn't die at night, so it's still 1/4 chance to hit the PR, the same as no lynching with both of us being town. (Again, flip the names if you are on TA's side.)
I still see no harm in lynching scum again today, or at worst mislynching me, if I'm not the PR.
-
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
-
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
You keep your pants on. :P No one's suggesting we end the Day here and now. I know my preference is to no-lynch, sure, but I definitely don't think anyone should hammer that or anything else before we've had some suitable level of discussion from everyone.
-
Vote Count 3.4
As soon the door was shut behind the missionary all the guests began to whisper.
"What should we do? If he finds out there are six dead bodies in the house he will call the cops!" whispered Mrs. White.
"Six dead bodies? I thought there were five," said Col. Mustard.
"No there were five. One in the bedroom, two at the chandelier, and one at the bathroom, one on the stairs," she replied.
"That's not six."
"One plus one plus two plus one."
"Uh-uh, there were two in the bedroom. That's one plus two plus one plus one.
"Even if you were right, that would be one plus one plus two plus one, not one plus *two* plus one plus one."
"Shut up!"
No lynch: (3) liopoil, Jimmmmmm, TA (L-2)
TA: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (4) raerae, mcmcsalot, chairs, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
Hrm. So no-lynch gives us (basically) one more VT to protect our PR, assuming the PR isn't just a named VT at this point, right?
Downside being that if we could lynch Mafia we'd be down to 1 Mafia member left, whereas if we don't lynch we leave both of them up (but protect ourselves from a VT or PR mislynch).
We haven't seen the psychtective flip, and so far there's been no obvious breadcrumb for it, so I'm tentatively in favor of the no-lynch day.
Chairs, there are no protective roles in this game. Unless you mean "one more VT in the pool of townies from which scum must select the NK." Than maybe.
Here's the thing, and Jimmmmm has pointed this out as well. No way scum NKs me. No way at all. No way scum NKs TA, because TA is scum, and NKing your own team is stupid. (Again, if you believe TA and not me, just flip the names, the situation is the same.)
So, really, what's the situation? 8 alive, 2 scum, 1 PR. Of the 6 townies, only 5 are valid kill targets, removing myself (or TA). So a 20% chance to kill the PR, unless I'm the PR, which would be awesome. If, for some cosmic irony reason, TA is also town, no way they kill either of us, giving them a pool of 4 targets, or 25% chance to hit the PR, unless one of us is the PR, which again, would be awesome.
Mislynch a VT that is not me and those numbers reduce. I get that. But I'm not arguing that we mislynch a townie that is not me. I'm arguing that we lynch TA, who is scum.
let's say for giggles that we have a detective and we no-lynch and he's able to clear at least one of you tonight. Then we avoid a mislynch, the NK wipes out a townie, and we're left with one more townie tomorrow to push a better lynch option through.
And yes, I think you understood my statement eventually - the VT is a protective role, insofar as a VT is one more potential non-PR target for the NK.
-
Those are posts that could absolutely be made by either scum or town, and Ash is trying to paint them as scummy.
Every post of every game could be made by either scum or town. I am pointing out ones I think were made by scum. It seems useless to point out ones that look like they were made by town, unless that townie was an impending lynch.
Look, if you are so so so so sure I'm scum, why aren't you voting for me? Why opt for No Lynch when you have scum caught dead to rights, according to you? You keep saying I'm scummy, that my reasons are weak, but you aren't pushing for my lynch, and are instead going along with town. Safe play, scum.
I'd rather you go out on your limb and get my mislynch through. That's the better trade off for you, if you are scum. You'd rather mislynch me today, get your kill today, then die tomorrow, TA. And you know that we know that, so you are voting no lynch instead. Nice WIFOM, man.
Your last paragraph is putting me in a damned-if-i-do, damned-if-i-don't situation. You're calling me scummy for doing what a towny would do, since that's what I would try to do as scum. Yet it's also what I'd try to do as town!
I want a no-lynch today because
1) I'm not 100% positive sure on your lynch. Only like 95% sure. That 5%, though, is enough for waiting another night. There's very little downside to no-lynching today.
2) There's the chance that the PR could investigate one of us and get a result which helps narrow down the lynch.
3) If there's a psychologist, one more night with 2 scum alive, rather than 1 scum alive, gives them a better chance to find scum. There's a chance that the role could have utility for one more night, which it wouldn't have if we lynched scum today.
I agree that lynching scum is good, but if we're going to lynch TA/Ash, then I see only benefits from waiting until tomorrow to do it.
-
The fact that Ashersky has responded to my case by saying that I'm 100% positively scum is so weird to me. I know he's not a PR with a result, so the certainty he's showing as to me being scum is really odd.
Let's say he actually is town, and I'm mistaken here. Throwing it into a "Me or TA" situation has made it so regardless, we lynch a town member. We would also get much less information than we would otherwise by tunneling in on two possible lynches.
Now, let's say he's scum. Throwing it into a "Me or TA" situation means that Ash will get lynched in one of the next two lynches. Of course, if I flip town before he gets lynched, he would try to avoid that situation, but I doubt he'd have much luck avoiding the lynch. What it also does, though, is two things that are good for scum. First, it means that we don't do any work on finding out who the third scum member is. Ashersky and TA gets all the attention, and no other wagons start. Second, it draws the investigation tonight, if we no-lynch. Once again, we're no closer to finding the third scum.
Given that Ashersky was going to be taking heat from my case, and that Eevee agreed and possibly others were going to agree with it, there wasn't really any way for him to avoid suspicion today. So turning into into a "me or him" situation is beneficial, as it doesn't draw anymore attention but it allows him to keep any suspicion from getting anywhere today. For someone who is complaining that we don't have a D2 to analyze, turning D3 into a situation where all the analysis will focus mostly on two people is a weird move, and one that benefits scum.
-
The fact that Ashersky has responded to my case by saying that I'm 100% positively scum is so weird to me. I know he's not a PR with a result, so the certainty he's showing as to me being scum is really odd.
Let's say he actually is town, and I'm mistaken here. Throwing it into a "Me or TA" situation has made it so regardless, we lynch a town member. We would also get much less information than we would otherwise by tunneling in on two possible lynches.
Now, let's say he's scum. Throwing it into a "Me or TA" situation means that Ash will get lynched in one of the next two lynches. Of course, if I flip town before he gets lynched, he would try to avoid that situation, but I doubt he'd have much luck avoiding the lynch. What it also does, though, is two things that are good for scum. First, it means that we don't do any work on finding out who the third scum member is. Ashersky and TA gets all the attention, and no other wagons start. Second, it draws the investigation tonight, if we no-lynch. Once again, we're no closer to finding the third scum.
Given that Ashersky was going to be taking heat from my case, and that Eevee agreed and possibly others were going to agree with it, there wasn't really any way for him to avoid suspicion today. So turning into into a "me or him" situation is beneficial, as it doesn't draw anymore attention but it allows him to keep any suspicion from getting anywhere today. For someone who is complaining that we don't have a D2 to analyze, turning D3 into a situation where all the analysis will focus mostly on two people is a weird move, and one that benefits scum.
Probably a dumb question here, but how do you know he's not a PR with a result?
-
Because I'm town!
-
Because I'm town!
That's exactly what Town would say!
Also exactly what Scum would say!
:o
For kicks, let's assume you guys are town-on-town for the moment. Who else could we review as potential scum? (I'd like both of you to answer).
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
-
oh man. if TA and ash are both town we are in deep deep trouble.
and ugh, I don't know which is more likely to be scum. Yep, super-hedgy. I had a townread on ash for the D1 shenanigans... but ash is just too certain of TA being scum. And I remember that shraeye suspected TA... anyway, I am very much a swing voter.
ash, why do you think that both scum have killed? I'd say it's more likely that only one has, because perhaps nkirbit did the kill N1, and by having both scum do the kill they turn the detective into a full cop...
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
...what about people who aren't eevee, jimmmm, or mcmc?
-
Town reads enough for me nt to list them.
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
So only absolute certainty here is towny, yet you also used the "TA is so certain he has got to be scum" argument earlier?
Maybe I shouldn't even point out these things anymore..
-
Liopoil, why have you done so little in this game?
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
So only absolute certainty here is towny, yet you also used the "TA is so certain he has got to be scum" argument earlier?
Maybe I shouldn't even point out these things anymore..
I think a list that says "whelp, everyone could be scum" is just making sure no matter what town he gets mislynched, he's covered.
I've taken firm stands on a small number of players. I can be held accountable. TA can't.
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
So what you're saying is that Eevee and I are so obviously scum partners buddying up this much to get one mislynch?
You're really calling an Eevee-TA scumteam here. Do you really think, if we were the team, we'd be this obvious about it? I mean, yeah we could get an Ashersky mislynch if that was the case, but that's not a good scum play.
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
So only absolute certainty here is towny, yet you also used the "TA is so certain he has got to be scum" argument earlier?
Maybe I shouldn't even point out these things anymore..
I think a list that says "whelp, everyone could be scum" is just making sure no matter what town he gets mislynched, he's covered.
I've taken firm stands on a small number of players. I can be held accountable. TA can't.
What? How am I not taking firm stands? I think Ashersky is scum. I think Eevee is town. I think Chairs is town. I think the other 4 players are somewhere in between. There's no less firm stands there than what you've done!
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
So what you're saying is that Eevee and I are so obviously scum partners buddying up this much to get one mislynch?
You're really calling an Eevee-TA scumteam here. Do you really think, if we were the team, we'd be this obvious about it? I mean, yeah we could get an Ashersky mislynch if that was the case, but that's not a good scum play.
Basically, yes. In the same vein as your argument (that Eevee has mimicked, btw) that my play is a scum gambit. You point out that the way you and Eevee are interacting is obviously bad play for the scum team, so you can't be the scum team. And that's exactly why you would play that way.
You have to see how that's the same type of argument you are using against me and my "self-voting gambit" that you keep claiming is what happened D1.
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
So what you're saying is that Eevee and I are so obviously scum partners buddying up this much to get one mislynch?
You're really calling an Eevee-TA scumteam here. Do you really think, if we were the team, we'd be this obvious about it? I mean, yeah we could get an Ashersky mislynch if that was the case, but that's not a good scum play.
Basically, yes. In the same vein as your argument (that Eevee has mimicked, btw) that my play is a scum gambit. You point out that the way you and Eevee are interacting is obviously bad play for the scum team, so you can't be the scum team. And that's exactly why you would play that way.
You have to see how that's the same type of argument you are using against me and my "self-voting gambit" that you keep claiming is what happened D1.
Oh, it is. But why is that argument valid when the one against you isn't?
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
So only absolute certainty here is towny, yet you also used the "TA is so certain he has got to be scum" argument earlier?
Maybe I shouldn't even point out these things anymore..
I think a list that says "whelp, everyone could be scum" is just making sure no matter what town he gets mislynched, he's covered.
I've taken firm stands on a small number of players. I can be held accountable. TA can't.
What? How am I not taking firm stands? I think Ashersky is scum. I think Eevee is town. I think Chairs is town. I think the other 4 players are somewhere in between. There's no less firm stands there than what you've done!
TA, there are 8 people alive. That's 7 suspects for you to find 2 scum. It's time to find teams, man. And what you can't (or aren't) doing is trying to find a partner for me that fits your "ash is scum" narrative. Anyone that made sense as my partner (Robz / shraeye) have died.
You declared Eevee and Chairs town, so to me one is prob!scum. Everyone else is possible scum to you. Doesn't compute, though. If you are right about everything, you still haven't found my partner.
You have TA/Eevee/Chairs as the town team and ash/Jimmmmm/mcmc/liopoil/raerae as the scum team.
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
So what you're saying is that Eevee and I are so obviously scum partners buddying up this much to get one mislynch?
You're really calling an Eevee-TA scumteam here. Do you really think, if we were the team, we'd be this obvious about it? I mean, yeah we could get an Ashersky mislynch if that was the case, but that's not a good scum play.
Basically, yes. In the same vein as your argument (that Eevee has mimicked, btw) that my play is a scum gambit. You point out that the way you and Eevee are interacting is obviously bad play for the scum team, so you can't be the scum team. And that's exactly why you would play that way.
You have to see how that's the same type of argument you are using against me and my "self-voting gambit" that you keep claiming is what happened D1.
Oh, it is. But why is that argument valid when the one against you isn't?
So you agree your argument against me is invalid?
-
I think that you're probably town, and I think that Eevee is probably town. If Ash is also town, that leaves two scum in Mcmc/Jimmm/Raerae/Liopoil. I think that there was almost certainly at least 1 scum on Voltaire's bandwagon, so I'd look in Mcmc/Jimmm for a scum. Wouldn't surprise me if one of Raerae/Liopoil was scum, as well.
Hedge much? Basically everyone but you, Eevee, and chairs are scum.
So only absolute certainty here is towny, yet you also used the "TA is so certain he has got to be scum" argument earlier?
Maybe I shouldn't even point out these things anymore..
I think a list that says "whelp, everyone could be scum" is just making sure no matter what town he gets mislynched, he's covered.
I've taken firm stands on a small number of players. I can be held accountable. TA can't.
What? How am I not taking firm stands? I think Ashersky is scum. I think Eevee is town. I think Chairs is town. I think the other 4 players are somewhere in between. There's no less firm stands there than what you've done!
TA, there are 8 people alive. That's 7 suspects for you to find 2 scum. It's time to find teams, man. And what you can't (or aren't) doing is trying to find a partner for me that fits your "ash is scum" narrative. Anyone that made sense as my partner (Robz / shraeye) have died.
You declared Eevee and Chairs town, so to me one is prob!scum. Everyone else is possible scum to you. Doesn't compute, though. If you are right about everything, you still haven't found my partner.
You have TA/Eevee/Chairs as the town team and ash/Jimmmmm/mcmc/liopoil/raerae as the scum team.
Why do I need to find both partners at once? I think you are scum, and you make sense as an Nkirbit partner. Third partner is doing a pretty good job staying hidden right now.
We lynch one person at a time, not two at a time -- just because I don't know who your partner is doesn't make my read on you any less valid. One scum at a time.
-
Guys, I'm exhausted, first day of work in almost a month and it was 9 hours of training and staring at multiple computer screens. Can I be excused until tomorrow night, please? I just can't do this tonight. Ash, TA, you've both given your opinions now please, stop yelling at each other for a minute or two. I'll be back tonight if I can get a second wind, otherwise I'll be back tomorrow with thoughts.
-
Vote Count 3.5
While the missionary was on the phone Yvette the Maid took charge. She told everyone that they needed to make the bodies look natural. Like they were having a house party.
"You take Professor Plum and Wadsworth the Butler and put them in the Billiard's Room. Make it look like they are playing a round of pool," she said to The Singing Telegram Girl and The Mechanic.
"Mr. Green, you and The Cook take Miss Scarlet and Mrs. Peacock to the Lounge. Make it look like they are having a good time knitting or something."
The guests willingly complied in an attempt to trick the intruder in the mansion.
As Mr. Green carried Miss Scarlet's upper-body he noticed something interesting on the floor. It was a small black tube. He couldn't reach down to pick it up though and decided he would come back for it later. However, The Cook followed him carrying Miss Scarlet's lower body she clumsily kicked it down the hall toward the Conservatory.
"So what do you do for a living, Mr. Green?" asked The Cook.
"I'm in plants and fruits," said Mr. Green. "We should talk business sometime. I think you and I would have a lot in common."
No lynch: (3) liopoil, Jimmmmmm, TA (L-2)
TA: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (4) raerae, mcmcsalot, chairs, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
Ahhhhh! I am here, catching up apologies to allllll.
-
No lynch is a go ahead for me! Also reads from days 1-2 with flip info don't change.
-
In #602, Ashersky's "want to lynch" list includes, Mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt. 2/4 of these are confirmed town, I personally know that 3/4 are town. Lists Nkirbit right in the middle of the list.
So did scum!ash really list only townies in his list? Go back through all the games where we do these lists. Scum puts one partner high on the scum list, the other low.
Also, it was my idea that we all do the lists. I did it to trap myself?
Oh this is interesting, I know I'm town, I don't think scum!ash follows any rule of where to put partners. The fact that you make the argument you wouldn't do "X" makes me waay more likely to believe you would. So big scum read coming off of that statement alone.
-
So why do I think TA is scum and not incorrect town?
1) TA has tunnelled me the entire game. He was the strongest pusher for my death on D1, he opens D3 with a DBZ against me. He has been remarkably consistent, in fact. And that is his downfall. Town!TA's most recognizeable feature is his willingness to rethink things from every angle. He is not afraid to change a read. He often has an epiphanic moment where he will change a read from town to scum, or vice versa. In short, he has rarely, if ever, carried a scum read over three days and done nothing but push that read for the entire game. TA doesn't tunnel, he scumhunts. TA has an epic ability to read TOWN members very well. He may not always catch scum, but I trust his town radar. The fact that he has consistently and forcefully pushed for my lynch the entire game without even a minute amount of doubt or rethought makes it clear to me that he already knows my alignment.
2) I believe he's been planning my mislynch since my D1 play. He was unhappy that I wasn't the lynch on D1. He was extremely annoyed at my anti-plan stance. He has ensured that the night kills each night have been pro-Ash townies. Let me bold that for you. Scum has killed pro-ash townies every night. Scum!ash doesn't kill his only supporters off. I used to hate being mislynched. Some of you will remember this. I've come to appreciate scum's need to mislynch townies. TA's fallen for the same romantic ideal of the "perfectly easy mislynch" that is ashersky. It is aggravating when it doesn't happen, right?
3) I believe his DBZ was pre-written before the day started, after he decided to kill Robz. Pre-writing stuff isn't scummy, of course. But it fits into the plan he has to get me mislynched. No one can argue with the point that Robz would have been clearly defending me today. raerae is still alive, at least. But it only takes three townies to mislynch me, and assuming raerae is town, if Robz was alive right now, I'm in no danger of death. The points in the DBZ are manipulatively written and misleading, and use the dead against me. It tells a tale spun by a weaver of untruths and death.
This is however compelling.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
Where is the slip, was there post editing I'm confused.
-
We are currently at 6 vs. 2. We each have a 2/7 chance of finding scum. A no lynch + NK makes it 5 vs. 2, upping chances to 1/3 in LYLO.
Consider instead a mislynch today, plus an NK tonight. That puts us at 4 vs. 2 with a 1/3 chance for each townie to catch scum.
So, both a no lynch and a mislynch results in LYLO tomorrow with a 1/3 chance for each townie. I guess I'm not super convinced a no lynch helps, when we look at it like that. Especially because scum won't kill off anyone that's a likely mislynch to help us out.
But 5 vs 2 isn't lylo (in fact neither is 4 v 2, but it is mylo).
If we lynch town at 5 vs 2, then town is NK'ed, it's 3 v 2 the next day, so you are right, that's LYLO there. At 4 v 2, we mislynch and lose, no lynch and end up at 3 v 2.
You are right, my math was wrong. 5 v 2 gives us an extra day, in theory, which is today, the no lynch day. I guess technically we could no lynch three times (from 6 v 2 to 3 v 2), but that's dumb.
I don't know. I still prefer to just lynch scum.
The extra day is important because:
Mislynch+nk means 4 townies trying to find 2 scum.
Nk+mislynch+nk means 3 townies trying to find 2 scum. Much better odds
Reason you would never no lynch repeatedly is the day isn't the reason, town wants to chose a lynch as much as possible, once that is achieve choosing a lynch among the smallest number of people is the next priority. No lynch is correct when it shrinks the pool of players without shrinking the number of town directed lynches. Also extra PR use is beneficial here.
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
Where is the slip, was there post editing I'm confused.
TA saying his is a mistaken townie implies he knows campaigning to get ash lynched is a mistake for town.
-
Ash is scum, no lynch, or still making himself be the center of attention for some reason taking away the ability to scum hunt for anyone esle super early in the day. Scummy. I will vote ash the open of tomorrow.
-
unvote to give raerae time to weigh in
-
Ash why are you not considering the fact that I'm mistaken town, and why are you making this "me or you?"
Where is the slip, was there post editing I'm confused.
TA saying his is a mistaken townie implies he knows campaigning to get ash lynched is a mistake for town.
No, I'm saying that why is ash sure that, if he's town, I'm scum and not a mistaken townie?
But he answered it in a previous post that I had missed
The "slip" is that I said "fact" I'm mistaken ie I know ash is town ie I'm scum. Not a slip, but make of it what you will I guess.
-
I'm not seeing it as a slip.
I'm in favor of no-lynching it today since a clear, logical explanation has come up for it.
-
Ash is scum, no lynch, or still making himself be the center of attention for some reason taking away the ability to scum hunt for anyone esle super early in the day. Scummy. I will vote ash the open of tomorrow.
Without the word vote, that bold doesn't count.
Also, just vote for me, if you are going to make statements like this. I don't understand why you need the no lynch if you are this sure. It's as perplexing as TA's stance.
-
Ash is scum, no lynch, or still making himself be the center of attention for some reason taking away the ability to scum hunt for anyone esle super early in the day. Scummy. I will vote ash the open of tomorrow.
Without the word vote, that bold doesn't count.
Also, just vote for me, if you are going to make statements like this. I don't understand why you need the no lynch if you are this sure. It's as perplexing as TA's stance.
vote: no lynch
Please answer, do you honestly not understand why no lynch is superior.
-
Let me rephrase, ash why do you think I should just vote you instead of no lynch based on my
Previous statement?
-
TA is scum = I am pretty sure Eevee is supporting/protecting his partner. Mcmc and Jimmmmm are possibles.
TA not scum = lessens suspicion on Eevee, of course, so mcmc > Jimmmmm > Eevee.
So what you're saying is that Eevee and I are so obviously scum partners buddying up this much to get one mislynch?
You're really calling an Eevee-TA scumteam here. Do you really think, if we were the team, we'd be this obvious about it? I mean, yeah we could get an Ashersky mislynch if that was the case, but that's not a good scum play.
Aww really TA why you gotta be so scummy :(
-
I understand the theory that no lynch is superior.
If you could end the day by yourself, would you do it by lynching scum or with a no lynch, if those are your only two options? Mcmc, TA please answer.
-
Let me rephrase, ash why do you think I should just vote you instead of no lynch based on my
Previous statement?
I think if you are absolutely sure someone scum, you should lynch scum. If you honestly believe that I could be town, vote no lynch.
-
Oh wow, you guys didn't do all that much other than yell at each other.
Everyone other than TA and Ash, list the following in the order you feel most to least likely.
1) TA town/Ash scum
2) TA scum/Ash town
3) TA town/Ash town
4) TA scum/Ash scum
I believe:
1) TA town/Ash scum
2) TA scum/Ash scum
3) TA scum/Ash town
4) TA town/Ash town
So I would like to lynch ash, but if not I would like to lynch TA because I HIGHLY doubt this is town on town, it looks nothing like the town on town arguments we have seen.
-
Let me rephrase, ash why do you think I should just vote you instead of no lynch based on my
Previous statement?
I think if you are absolutely sure someone scum, you should lynch scum. If you honestly believe that I could be town, vote no lynch.
If I could chose to lynch scum or no lynch I would lynch scum, if there is any chance whatsoever that town would be lynched today, I would no lynch.
-
Also your question is quite unsettling a how close it comes to pr fishing. You basically asked me and TA if we had confirmation you were scum. And if I do I would have answered the same way I just did.
-
Also your question is quite unsettling a how close it comes to pr fishing. You basically asked me and TA if we had confirmation you were scum. And if I do I would have answered the same way I just did.
How would you have confirmation I'm scum? Psychologist? I've laid out how scum is/can be protected from PRs already. There's zero chance (in my mind) that the Psychologist has a scum result on anyone.
-
Also your question is quite unsettling a how close it comes to pr fishing. You basically asked me and TA if we had confirmation you were scum. And if I do I would have answered the same way I just did.
Okay, rephrased:
If you had to end the day, and only you, and your choices were:
1) No Lynch
2) Lynch a player who was mod-confirmed publically in the thread to be 95% scum
Which do you choose? I believe #2 is the level of conviction TA has that I am scum. Is it yours?
-
There's anti-town, and then there's ashersky. This conversation has gone on long enough, and I don't want to see it tomorrow. Let's hope our PR benefits tonight from an extra body to save him.
vote: no lynch
-
There's anti-town, and then there's ashersky. This conversation has gone on long enough, and I don't want to see it tomorrow. Let's hope our PR benefits tonight from an extra body to save him.
vote: no lynch
Since TA unvoted, that's L-1, right?
Do we give raerae time?
-
I really dont see ash's point, as I've personally never been 95% sure of anyone being scum without a power role result. Not to put words into TA's mouth, but I think it's perfectly plausible he is campaigning against you this hard and has say 65% confidence in his case.
mcmc, I think town on town is actually very possible here, at least way way more likely than scum on scum. Why do you think it's impossible?
-
Oh wow, you guys didn't do all that much other than yell at each other.
Everyone other than TA and Ash, list the following in the order you feel most to least likely.
1) TA town/Ash scum
2) TA scum/Ash town
3) TA town/Ash town
4) TA scum/Ash scum
I believe:
1) TA town/Ash scum
2) TA scum/Ash scum
3) TA scum/Ash town
4) TA town/Ash town
So I would like to lynch ash, but if not I would like to lynch TA because I HIGHLY doubt this is town on town, it looks nothing like the town on town arguments we have seen.
From a neutral standpoint, if possible, I'd say "most likely" is:
town/town > scum/town > scum/scum
TA should agree with that line of reasoning, since he can say this: "I know scum/scum is impossible, because I am town" as often as I can.
-
Ok, back and around 75% capacity. Thoughts!
1. TA looks way scummier than Ash. Like super scummy. Like, usually I'm good at pegging town v town and this doesn't give me that same vibe and TA has been shadetacular all game. This would be my preferred lynch if we don't no lynch.
2. mcmc swoops in and says his D1 reads haven't changed but STILL hasn't explained them. Gives very little input on anything. Pegs Ash as scummier than TA but then calls TA scummy too soooooo...I don't understand.
3. chairs. Is he still in this game? Has he contributed anything? Like, ever? Scum doesn't really seem to be shooting for PRs (shraeye and Robz? Really?) So...why is the claimed "vt" still alive?
4. Eevee is back and up to snuff, I don't understand Ash's accusations here.
5. Jimmmmmmm, ever the mystery. Helpful and townie. But he was in LOTR too. All the same, leaning townie.
6. Lio, no lynch suggestion is pretty townie. Had it come later, like after the Ash/TA thing, then I'd think he was trying to protect one of them but scum would still want to get a mislynch off today if possible so, townish.
PPE: So...chairs, did you realize you put no lynch at L-1 or did you think that was the hammer?
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
-
Liopoil, why have you done so little in this game?
No one else calling liopoil out makes me all the more interested in pursuing this further. We'll probably rush to no lynch before lio answers, so if I die, I think you should consider lio even without me being here to suggest it.
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
Frustration due to me reading you incorrectly and siding with ta, or for something else?
Fwiw I see merit in your accusations and could really see TA being scum or you both being town. I come off too anti-ash because I dislike the way you present some of your arguments, and I apologize for it.
-
I understand the theory that no lynch is superior.
If you could end the day by yourself, would you do it by lynching scum or with a no lynch, if those are your only two options? Mcmc, TA please answer.
If I could guarantee that we'd no-lynch, THEN 100% lynch scum tomorrow, I'd do that over 100% lynching scum today. Gives a possible psychologist one more chance for a positive investigation, while it wouldn't affect the detective.
Same if you replace 95% for 100%
-
Also your question is quite unsettling a how close it comes to pr fishing. You basically asked me and TA if we had confirmation you were scum. And if I do I would have answered the same way I just did.
How would you have confirmation I'm scum? Psychologist? I've laid out how scum is/can be protected from PRs already. There's zero chance (in my mind) that the Psychologist has a scum result on anyone.
A psychologist had 2 chances to get a positive result N1. Either 0 or 1 chances to get a positive result N2 (depending on if Nkirbit was the mafia to kill N1). There's not a zero chance psychologist has a scum result (unless you're saying that it's unlikely because they would have already claimed, that I would agree with.)
There's no way for scum to protect against BOTH the psychologist and the detective. If we no-lynch, there's a greater-than-zero chance of getting a positive response. Either 0 or 1 scum would generate a positive result for the psychologist tonight, while 1 or 2 scum would generate a positive result for the detective tonight.
-
Vote Count 3.6
Soon the missionary was done with the phone. But when he went to open the door the handle was locked. Why was the door locked.
But even more confusing, the phone rang!
The missionary answered it as the rest of the guests alarmingly looked at each other. Who could be calling?
Soon the missionary was pounding on the door. "Let me outta here! Let me outta here! You have no right to shut me in! I'll use the power of God to smite you down to purgatory for... for wrongful imprisonment, and obstructing a missionary in the course of his duty... and MURDER!"
"MURDER?" asked Yvette the Maid as she opened the door. "What do you mean murder?"
"I just said it so you would open the door. What's going on around here? And why would you lock me in? And why are you receiving phone calls from someone named yuma... what kind of a name is that?"
No lynch: (4) liopoil, Jimmmmmm, mcmc, chairs (L-1)
TA: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (3) raerae, TA, Eevee
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
Also note that if no-lynch is decided upon there will still be a significant length of time for twilight.
-
There's no way for scum to protect against BOTH the psychologist and the detective. If we no-lynch, there's a greater-than-zero chance of getting a positive response. Either 0 or 1 scum would generate a positive result for the psychologist tonight, while 1 or 2 scum would generate a positive result for the detective tonight.
I agree here, with your first line, and is why I don't think no lynch is a scummy thing at all. No need to rush into it, though.
-
I'd say town/scum is more likely than town/town, since I think Ash is scum, but yes I agree with Ash's main point.
-
I understand the theory that no lynch is superior.
If you could end the day by yourself, would you do it by lynching scum or with a no lynch, if those are your only two options? Mcmc, TA please answer.
If I could guarantee that we'd no-lynch, THEN 100% lynch scum tomorrow, I'd do that over 100% lynching scum today. Gives a possible psychologist one more chance for a positive investigation, while it wouldn't affect the detective.
Same if you replace 95% for 100%
Even if you take into consideration the extra opportunity for scum to NK the PR? I do note that whether scum is lynched today or tomorrow, the PR could die tonight. My point is that one scum tonight deciding what to do is better than two scum tonight deciding what to do, because:
1) One scum alive means there's zilch they can do to dodge the detective.
2) One scum alive means it's completely on them to pick a target, with no one to discuss it with. (This matters; look at scum QTs)
3) One scum alive means we killed another scum!
-
Liopoil, why have you done so little in this game?
No one else calling liopoil out makes me all the more interested in pursuing this further. We'll probably rush to no lynch before lio answers, so if I die, I think you should consider lio even without me being here to suggest it.
I just can't imagine scum Liopoil playing this quietly, I dunno. I've been more concerned with Ash today. I'd love for Lio to weigh in more, though, of course!
-
Liopoil, why have you done so little in this game?
No one else calling liopoil out makes me all the more interested in pursuing this further. We'll probably rush to no lynch before lio answers, so if I die, I think you should consider lio even without me being here to suggest it.
Very good point. He and chairs both. Liopoil moreso, although chairs has just been riding his VT claim all game. Thing is, that's exactly what I would expect to happen if chairs is a VT.
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
Frustration due to me reading you incorrectly and siding with ta, or for something else?
Fwiw I see merit in your accusations and could really see TA being scum or you both being town. I come off too anti-ash because I dislike the way you present some of your arguments, and I apologize for it.
I guess I don't like it that you don't believe me more. I've known you the longest of anyone left alive, and we've been scum partners multiple times. Probably not fair that I project high expectations on you. And of course you could be scum manipulating all this. :)
I completely understand the reactions to my style. I don't hold it against you. I am irritating when I'm town and on these war paths.
-
Ok, back and around 75% capacity. Thoughts!
1. TA looks way scummier than Ash. Like super scummy. Like, usually I'm good at pegging town v town and this doesn't give me that same vibe and TA has been shadetacular all game. This would be my preferred lynch if we don't no lynch.
For what reasons?
Also, how are you feeling about no-lynch?
-
Ash, what do you think about the fact that we've been the only topic of conversation today? If we're both town, no one's going to have any incentive to move the conversation anywhere (Eevee pointing out Liopoil is the only other observation that's been made today).
If we're one scum/ one town (from either mine or your point of view), would you expect the conversation to remain solely on us, or wander elsewhere? It's definitely gotten into a "one of them is scum" mindset, which is great if we're both town.
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
Frustration due to me reading you incorrectly and siding with ta, or for something else?
Fwiw I see merit in your accusations and could really see TA being scum or you both being town. I come off too anti-ash because I dislike the way you present some of your arguments, and I apologize for it.
I guess I don't like it that you don't believe me more. I've known you the longest of anyone left alive, and we've been scum partners multiple times. Probably not fair that I project high expectations on you. And of course you could be scum manipulating all this. :)
I completely understand the reactions to my style. I don't hold it against you. I am irritating when I'm town and on these war paths.
What a guilt trip this is!
-
Ash, what do you think about the fact that we've been the only topic of conversation today? If we're both town, no one's going to have any incentive to move the conversation anywhere (Eevee pointing out Liopoil is the only other observation that's been made today).
If we're one scum/ one town (from either mine or your point of view), would you expect the conversation to remain solely on us, or wander elsewhere? It's definitely gotten into a "one of them is scum" mindset, which is great if we're both town.
Great for scum, I assume you meant. Scum slip!!!! jk
I think that, if this ends up town/town, it wasn't great. I think scum have two options: pick a side that seems townier to the majority, and have some wiggle room after the first mislynch happens; or try not to take a side (liopoil/chairs style).
In the town/scum scenario, if scum is winning, I think the partner lets it continue. If scum is losing, partner may try to move conversation along and/or get the no lynch through sooner rather than later.
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
Frustration due to me reading you incorrectly and siding with ta, or for something else?
Fwiw I see merit in your accusations and could really see TA being scum or you both being town. I come off too anti-ash because I dislike the way you present some of your arguments, and I apologize for it.
I guess I don't like it that you don't believe me more. I've known you the longest of anyone left alive, and we've been scum partners multiple times. Probably not fair that I project high expectations on you. And of course you could be scum manipulating all this. :)
I completely understand the reactions to my style. I don't hold it against you. I am irritating when I'm town and on these war paths.
What a guilt trip this is!
Why are you feeling guilty?
-
Ok, back and around 75% capacity. Thoughts!
1. TA looks way scummier than Ash. Like super scummy. Like, usually I'm good at pegging town v town and this doesn't give me that same vibe and TA has been shadetacular all game. This would be my preferred lynch if we don't no lynch.
For what reasons?
Also, how are you feeling about no-lynch?
Inhaling a salad and finishing work homework, I'll get to that soon. I feel like today has flown by so I'm not eager to end it and have another not much to go on day so I'd prefer to finish a reread before voting. I see the benefits of a no lynch but I don't see the benefits of ending today right now.
-
I admit my scum read on Eevee may be frustration with him.
Frustration due to me reading you incorrectly and siding with ta, or for something else?
Fwiw I see merit in your accusations and could really see TA being scum or you both being town. I come off too anti-ash because I dislike the way you present some of your arguments, and I apologize for it.
I guess I don't like it that you don't believe me more. I've known you the longest of anyone left alive, and we've been scum partners multiple times. Probably not fair that I project high expectations on you. And of course you could be scum manipulating all this. :)
I completely understand the reactions to my style. I don't hold it against you. I am irritating when I'm town and on these war paths.
What a guilt trip this is!
Why are you feeling guilty?
Have you, like, been murdering people at night, or something?
-
Ok, back and around 75% capacity. Thoughts!
1. TA looks way scummier than Ash. Like super scummy. Like, usually I'm good at pegging town v town and this doesn't give me that same vibe and TA has been shadetacular all game. This would be my preferred lynch if we don't no lynch.
2. mcmc swoops in and says his D1 reads haven't changed but STILL hasn't explained them. Gives very little input on anything. Pegs Ash as scummier than TA but then calls TA scummy too soooooo...I don't understand.
3. chairs. Is he still in this game? Has he contributed anything? Like, ever? Scum doesn't really seem to be shooting for PRs (shraeye and Robz? Really?) So...why is the claimed "vt" still alive?
4. Eevee is back and up to snuff, I don't understand Ash's accusations here.
5. Jimmmmmmm, ever the mystery. Helpful and townie. But he was in LOTR too. All the same, leaning townie.
6. Lio, no lynch suggestion is pretty townie. Had it come later, like after the Ash/TA thing, then I'd think he was trying to protect one of them but scum would still want to get a mislynch off today if possible so, townish.
PPE: So...chairs, did you realize you put no lynch at L-1 or did you think that was the hammer?
Didn't pay any attention to the votes.
I guess you guys want a longer day, though? I can unvote, no big deal. I just didn't see anything productive coming out of TA and ash yelling at each other until the 6th. I've pretty much lost interest in this game over it.
-
Well, to turn the discussion elsewhere, what do you think of liopoil, chairs?
-
I guess you guys want a longer day, though? I can unvote, no big deal. I just didn't see anything productive coming out of TA and ash yelling at each other until the 6th. I've pretty much lost interest in this game over it.
Then get us talking about other things, man. What do YOU think needs to be discussed? Who do you want to check out? I get how you can be frustrated that TA and I took over the thread for awhile, but we've toned it down. Do some contributing of your own.
We saved you on D1, remember. At the expense of our vigilante, by the way. Earn your keep!
-
oh hey, this game...
well, I'm still not 100% sold on either case at all. I support no lynch.
however, I am a bit worried about people making this a TA-or-Ash thing, I could see them both being town for sure. props to eevee for looking elsewhere, even if it is in the wrong place, at me.
I think TA is more likely to be scum than Ash. And that's not so much that ash's case is great, it's more that I now have a bit of a townread on ashersky, and I think I have read him well in the past. The townread is because, well, he's being crazy. And really, he isn't as insane as scum. look at mean girls. sure, he fakeclaimed, but that's a different type of crazy, that's just good strategy. here, I don't think scum!ash would react so strongly to TA, because he would know that it would turn it into a me-or-him thing like it did. And I DO think that a lot of ash's case on TA is based off of him being frustrated at TA for incorrectly finding him scummy. So I'm not sold on lynching TA either, but I do need to look at the case again, I may have misrepresented it here.
I don't know why raerae has been so free of suspicion, she hasn't done anything particularly towny, and has been a bit in the background, like raerae in bankers. raerae is usually more loud.
so in regard to TA-Ash, I think from most likely to least likely:
ash town, TA town
ash town, TA scum
ash scum, TA scum (could have easily been staged, yes?)
ash scum, TA town.
-
Liopoil, on a re-read, seems pretty towny to me.
Ironically, the more I read back (to reread liopoil) the more sold I am on scum!ash, insofar as the arguments ash has made that are next to lio's posts.
-
Why would they want to stage it though? Why would scum deliberately make it a "me or him" with their partner?
I agree with the point about raerae, by the way. I was thinking who are the most likely to be mafia and poe'd myself into thinking "no way both raerae and liopoil are town". I have a better track record of reading liopoil, so that's why I "came after him", but this reply from lio feels towny (and either way further cements my "either is likely to be scum" theory).
I'm not sure if it's smart to post this, but I'd probably be looking to lynch from [raerae, liopoil, chairs] tomorrow, barring no new information.
-
OK, guys, this is taking a lot longer than I anticipated. Give me one more day. We don't have any hw on the schedule for tomorrow so I can finish up my say tomorrow night.
Chairs, that's a pretty easy excuse, Ash and TA cooled off ages ago. Get to scumhunting already if you don't buy/like what they're saying.
PPE: Are you f-ing kidding me, lio?? Me? In the background? Robz is getting a lot of cred for being pro-Ash D1 but I was just as loud. Contrary to TA's case on Ash, it wasn't kermit who presented the original chairs case, it was me. I'm the one who stopped D3 from being as useless at D2. Don't you dare misrepresent me as playing background.
-
I think you totally are too, although to be fair I haven't reread and your recent quietness might be impairing my judgement on the subject.
-
Why would they want to stage it though? Why would scum deliberately make it a "me or him" with their partner?
I agree with the point about raerae, by the way. I was thinking who are the most likely to be mafia and poe'd myself into thinking "no way both raerae and liopoil are town". I have a better track record of reading liopoil, so that's why I "came after him", but this reply from lio feels towny (and either way further cements my "either is likely to be scum" theory).
I'm not sure if it's smart to post this, but I'd probably be looking to lynch from [raerae, liopoil, chairs] tomorrow, barring no new information.
Is this after a no-lynch, and before a Ash/TA lynch?
-
Robz is dead, there is no cred to be given to him anymore.
Original chairs case is a good point, means it's less likely you two are a scum team. (This is why we should reread!) How was it you that stopped D3 being useless? Serious question, I don't remember what you did.
-
You too, Eevee? For crying out loud I swear on everything that is good and holy in this world I walked into a good-old-boys club with the wrong parts.
D3 was cruising for a no-lynch. We were at L-2 when I posted this...
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
Guess what happened after that? Oh yeah, we slowed down on the no-lynch stuff. We got more content. D3 was extended so town has reactions to read.
-
Why would they want to stage it though? Why would scum deliberately make it a "me or him" with their partner?
I agree with the point about raerae, by the way. I was thinking who are the most likely to be mafia and poe'd myself into thinking "no way both raerae and liopoil are town". I have a better track record of reading liopoil, so that's why I "came after him", but this reply from lio feels towny (and either way further cements my "either is likely to be scum" theory).
I'm not sure if it's smart to post this, but I'd probably be looking to lynch from [raerae, liopoil, chairs] tomorrow, barring no new information.
Is this after a no-lynch, and before a Ash/TA lynch?
Indeedy. I absolutely disagree with the scum on scum idea, and everyone supporting lynching either of you makes me feel it's more and more likely you two are town on town.
Also, it's just really hard to tell between you two! I'm going back and forth with siding with either of you, makes me wonder why on earth I'm not looking at the people who aren't deliberately putting themselves to the foreground.
-
You too, Eevee? For crying out loud I swear on everything that is good and holy in this world I walked into a good-old-boys club with the wrong parts.
D3 was cruising for a no-lynch. We were at L-2 when I posted this...
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
Guess what happened after that? Oh yeah, we slowed down on the no-lynch stuff. We got more content. D3 was extended so town has reactions to read.
I wholeheartedly agree with the notion, more discussion is good and I love the direction this game is finally starting to take. However, while I think your post showed some good protown rational thinking, I don't really see your post as an alignment tell. I know I personally wasn't rushing us to a nolynch without discussion until your post stopped me dead to my tracks.
Also, I think your reaction to these "accusations" is way overboard and feels faked. I've got varying degrees of town reads on Jimm and mcmc for their play and chairs for his VT claim, TA and ash clearly aren't minding attention, I'm calling out you and liopoil as a result of PoE. I don't see how you can get mad at that.
-
Rest assured it certainly isn't because you are of the female gender though!
-
Also your question is quite unsettling a how close it comes to pr fishing. You basically asked me and TA if we had confirmation you were scum. And if I do I would have answered the same way I just did.
Okay, rephrased:
If you had to end the day, and only you, and your choices were:
1) No Lynch
2) Lynch a player who was mod-confirmed publically in the thread to be 95% scum
Which do you choose? I believe #2 is the level of conviction TA has that I am scum. Is it yours?
Better question :) I would choose to no lynch.
-
You too, Eevee? For crying out loud I swear on everything that is good and holy in this world I walked into a good-old-boys club with the wrong parts.
D3 was cruising for a no-lynch. We were at L-2 when I posted this...
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
Guess what happened after that? Oh yeah, we slowed down on the no-lynch stuff. We got more content. D3 was extended so town has reactions to read.
Calm your briches, I don't think anyone was really OMG NO LYCH RIGHT NOW VOTEVOTEVOTE like your making it sound. For the same matter I don't feel you have been unhelpful, I just think your trying to make yourself sound a bit like towns savior. This is actually not something I peg scum raerae with, so town read for you.
-
You too, Eevee? For crying out loud I swear on everything that is good and holy in this world I walked into a good-old-boys club with the wrong parts.
D3 was cruising for a no-lynch. We were at L-2 when I posted this...
Hi folks, I see a lot of pages have happened since I went to sleep last night. I start a new job today so daytime posting will drop dramatically going forward. Can we please all keep our pants on for a little bit longer and not decide on a lynch or no lynch right now this very moment? If we no lynch right now we have another worthless day because D2 had no meaningful conversation and today has just been ash/TA back and forth with a bit of Jimmmmmm and Eevee thrown in for flavor. Chairs, lio, mcmc, and myself have been a bit absent. At the very least, let's let mcmc make more than one post today, shall we?
Guess what happened after that? Oh yeah, we slowed down on the no-lynch stuff. We got more content. D3 was extended so town has reactions to read.
Calm your briches, I don't think anyone was really OMG NO LYCH RIGHT NOW VOTEVOTEVOTE like your making it sound. For the same matter I don't feel you have been unhelpful, I just think your trying to make yourself sound a bit like towns savior. This is actually not something I peg scum raerae with, so town read for you.
What do you think of lio? Can you refresh those of us who have forgotten what your reads are?
-
Eevee, how come we seem to look at ever interaction so far and view it in exactly opposite ways.
This really worries me, I mean raerae has been called out before for faking outrage but I don't think this one was faked, it seemed more like she was as I said making herself look good, I didn't take it as scummy fake anger.
Also ill refresh my reads and explain sometime today probably on my lunch break.
-
Well, I explained my position on raerae, the outrage felt over the top, fake or not. I'm leaning fake partially due to suspecting raerae for other reasons.
You thinking there is a good chance TA-ash is scum on scum is just very scummy to me. Can you explain that a bit? Like, why would they intentionally make it "me or you" if they were both scum?
-
You thinking there is a good chance TA-ash is scum on scum is just very scummy to me. Can you explain that a bit? Like, why would they intentionally make it "me or you" if they were both scum?
I don't believe they're both scum, but I would have thought the answer to this question was fairly apparent.
-
You thinking there is a good chance TA-ash is scum on scum is just very scummy to me. Can you explain that a bit? Like, why would they intentionally make it "me or you" if they were both scum?
I don't believe they're both scum, but I would have thought the answer to this question was fairly apparent.
Well, is it good strategy, is it likely they realized its good strategy and decided to try to pull it off, or is it a mistake they are for some reason making? Like sure, making the other an ic (would it even?), I know. Anything is possible, I find mcmc thinking that's more likely suspect as scum would love to lynch first one then the other if its town on town.
-
You thinking there is a good chance TA-ash is scum on scum is just very scummy to me. Can you explain that a bit? Like, why would they intentionally make it "me or you" if they were both scum?
I don't believe they're both scum, but I would have thought the answer to this question was fairly apparent.
Well, is it good strategy, is it likely they realized its good strategy and decided to try to pull it off, or is it a mistake they are for some reason making? Like sure, making the other an ic (would it even?), I know. Anything is possible, I find mcmc thinking that's more likely suspect as scum would love to lynch first one then the other if its town on town.
I don't think it's scum/scum, I think ash is scum, if ash flips town I think TA is scum. If ash is scum I doesn't mean TA is scum, I just think them both being scum is more likely than ash being town simply because he has dominated 100% I the conversation this game. And he picked all(other than TA) townies in his want to lynch list. No way town ash is that wrong and controls that muc of the convo and yells at people for the one thing we have done all game that actually resulted in scum getting lynched. I can't see it.
-
No way town ash is that wrong and controls that muc of the convo and yells at people for the one thing we have done all game that actually resulted in scum getting lynched. I can't see it.
You realise this is ash we're talking about right?
-
No way town ash is that wrong and controls that muc of the convo and yells at people for the one thing we have done all game that actually resulted in scum getting lynched. I can't see it.
You realise this is ash we're talking about right?
Yes, I realize he goes to very strange extremes to help his team, this often involves doin things that look crazy but eventually prove to have been useful, he has hurt town all of this game, that's not like town ash.
-
mod request: could the first post be updated with the current information and day start links.
My hard drive burned out a few days ago so I am limited to phone access and will be for the next week. (Stupid me for now backing up my OS so I have to wait for a windows disk) I would very much appreciate the update as it makes navigation much easier. Thanks!
-
Also does someone want to print screen all the flavor for me? It's not right and he did day someone's flavor is important. I know the movie almost by heart and there are distinct differences in yuma's flavor to the movie...
-
Oh, the flavor means something!? I hadn't even heard of the movie before, and I've been skipping flavor altogether.
-
Volt, your reads list you posted a while back seemed driven by anger/frustration.
I get that, but sometime during twilight, think you could post your reads and rough reasons without the red haze of anger over them? Even if it's the same list, just one that talks about why you think people are scummy that isn't only about your lynch.
I know I've been arguing that a lot of votes on you wagon were scummy, so I'm interested where you think I'm right and where I'm not.
I have no idea where you think anger/frustration came into my reads. Here they are again, with lite explanation:
ash - perfectly set up my lynch. If I had been awake last night and claimed my real PR, he would have hammered me anyway. I stand by what I said - either ash is scum, or he's been easily the worst town player (see: all the stuff he did earlier in the day too)
chairs - I mean, it's my original scum read.
mcmc - has been very scummy lately (chiefly with his votes, but also no reads)
Robz - always an enigma
TA - was very towny at the start of the day, then I started to get worried by his seemingly being willing to hang back stance. If chairs is town, this makes TA look very scummy.
Jimmmm - needs to post more
Eevee - we're into town reads here, but Eevee is the weakest simply because TownEevee is WAY more helpful.
nkirbit - actually a bit of a null
lio - town
raerae/shraeye - town, documented elsewhere
UmbrageOfSnow - duh
This is neeto burrito, I kind of agree. I think ash TA chairs eevee Jimm are the places scum is hiding. So me lio, raerae, are town. Ash eevee as I said makes quite some sense. That would be my best guess.
-
Also does someone want to print screen all the flavor for me? It's not right and he did day someone's flavor is important. I know the movie almost by heart and there are distinct differences in yuma's flavor to the movie...
What? Is flavor important? I know that one flavor name = one role, but besides that, I didn't know it mattered.
PPE: Eevee agrees!
-
Volt, your reads list you posted a while back seemed driven by anger/frustration.
I get that, but sometime during twilight, think you could post your reads and rough reasons without the red haze of anger over them? Even if it's the same list, just one that talks about why you think people are scummy that isn't only about your lynch.
I know I've been arguing that a lot of votes on you wagon were scummy, so I'm interested where you think I'm right and where I'm not.
I have no idea where you think anger/frustration came into my reads. Here they are again, with lite explanation:
ash - perfectly set up my lynch. If I had been awake last night and claimed my real PR, he would have hammered me anyway. I stand by what I said - either ash is scum, or he's been easily the worst town player (see: all the stuff he did earlier in the day too)
chairs - I mean, it's my original scum read.
mcmc - has been very scummy lately (chiefly with his votes, but also no reads)
Robz - always an enigma
TA - was very towny at the start of the day, then I started to get worried by his seemingly being willing to hang back stance. If chairs is town, this makes TA look very scummy.
Jimmmm - needs to post more
Eevee - we're into town reads here, but Eevee is the weakest simply because TownEevee is WAY more helpful.
nkirbit - actually a bit of a null
lio - town
raerae/shraeye - town, documented elsewhere
UmbrageOfSnow - duh
This is neeto burrito, I kind of agree. I think ash TA chairs eevee Jimm are the places scum is hiding. So me lio, raerae, are town. Ash eevee as I said makes quite some sense. That would be my best guess.
I disagree, I would not be surprised if there's a scum in lio/raerae
-
Oh, the flavor means something!? I hadn't even heard of the movie before, and I've been skipping flavor altogether.
I'm not sure it means anything. Just we ARE the flavor, and lets just say our characters are not all doing what they are supposed to. Certain characters have stolen other characters lines while the other character was alive, and I don't know the reason for it.
-
To Mcmc (and anyone else who thinks Chairs isn't town):
Why don't you think Chairs is town? Yes, bussing is a thing, but D1, I don't think it makes sense. Nkirbit had several wagons he could have jumped on -- if Ash is town, he could have jumped on that, he could have moved over to Voltaire, he could have moved over to Mcmc when several people were saying to move over to Mcmc. But he stayed on Chairs throughout it all/
If Chairs is scum, you're saying that Nkirbit chose to bus his fellow scum member D1, and actively push the "chairs is scummy" case, rather than hopping on the alternative town wagon. You're also saying that you don't believe Chairs' VT claim.
I'm pretty sure that Chairs is town here. Can someone who doesn't think it explain why they don't, cause I'm not seeing Chairs as scum whatsoever.
-
Does eevee feel off to anyone else?
Also man Jimm really has minimal content. I guess we are all lacking major content. The lack of mafia enthusiasm isn't only making starting a game difficult.
-
The fact that Nkirbit was scum, and chose to hop on Chairs rather than joining in with Ashersky's wagon, and then started actively scumhunting on Ash's wagon (a different route than Robz, who tried to argue town people on the Ashersky wagon down), is one of the biggest reasons why I think that Ashersky is Nkirbit's buddy.
-
To Mcmc (and anyone else who thinks Chairs isn't town):
Why don't you think Chairs is town? Yes, bussing is a thing, but D1, I don't think it makes sense. Nkirbit had several wagons he could have jumped on -- if Ash is town, he could have jumped on that, he could have moved over to Voltaire, he could have moved over to Mcmc when several people were saying to move over to Mcmc. But he stayed on Chairs throughout it all/
If Chairs is scum, you're saying that Nkirbit chose to bus his fellow scum member D1, and actively push the "chairs is scummy" case, rather than hopping on the alternative town wagon. You're also saying that you don't believe Chairs' VT claim.
I'm pretty sure that Chairs is town here. Can someone who doesn't think it explain why they don't, cause I'm not seeing Chairs as scum whatsoever.
Oh god we've missed that analysis ugh. Can someone find that post that has us on both of the wagons? I think I actually can find it. We should then fill in people's alignment and figure things like TA just said out.
-
Yuma, is the flavor just flavor, or should we try to read into it?
Mcmc and others suspecting me, could you build a case? Also why are lio and raerae towny? We seem to be 100% disagreeing here, which is super interesting. Actually I'm really very interested in all of mcmc's reads and explanations.
-
Does eevee feel off to anyone else?
Also man Jimm really has minimal content. I guess we are all lacking major content. The lack of mafia enthusiasm isn't only making starting a game difficult.
Nope. I don't think Eevee is off. Could be that he's just agreeing with me and my Ash case, but he and CHairs are my strongest town reads.
-
To Mcmc (and anyone else who thinks Chairs isn't town):
Why don't you think Chairs is town? Yes, bussing is a thing, but D1, I don't think it makes sense. Nkirbit had several wagons he could have jumped on -- if Ash is town, he could have jumped on that, he could have moved over to Voltaire, he could have moved over to Mcmc when several people were saying to move over to Mcmc. But he stayed on Chairs throughout it all/
If Chairs is scum, you're saying that Nkirbit chose to bus his fellow scum member D1, and actively push the "chairs is scummy" case, rather than hopping on the alternative town wagon. You're also saying that you don't believe Chairs' VT claim.
I'm pretty sure that Chairs is town here. Can someone who doesn't think it explain why they don't, cause I'm not seeing Chairs as scum whatsoever.
This is an excellent post, that's just a vital piece of information I had forgotten. I was PoE'ing myself into suspecting chairs due to his playing pretty null, but this not only alleviates the issues I had with chairs also makes me trust TA more (well, this is assuming they aren't the scum team, in which case TA's post is just genius and scum got sort of lucky the chips fell the way they did).
-
Vote Count 1.18
"Where did the weapon go?" asked The Cook. "Can't we use that as a piece of evidence and for fingerprints?" she asked The Cop.
The Cop agreed, but apparently no one had thought to grab the Candlestick from upstairs. The group left the Study and ran up the stairs to the room that yuma was found in.
"Where did it go?" asked Mrs. White. "It was here on the floor when Professor Plum found yuma."
"Are you sure it was in this room?" asked Yvette the Maid. "Let's look in the other rooms to make sure."
Professor Plum, Mrs. White, Mr. Boddy and Col. Mustard were left in the room as the others went to check the other rooms.
Each room was as empty of candlesticks as the other. Everyone was very confused and were even more confused when a loud sound of a door being slammed was heard.
Suddenly The Cook, The Cop, Mrs. Peacock and The Mechanic were locked inside one of the rooms.
"Let us out, let us out!" they shouted!
"Let us in, let us in!" shouted everyone else.
Voltaire (6): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz (L-1)
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, raerae, liopoil, Snow (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Day1 ends July 22nd at 10:30 a.m. forum time.
-
Does eevee feel off to anyone else?
Also man Jimm really has minimal content. I guess we are all lacking major content. The lack of mafia enthusiasm isn't only making starting a game difficult.
Dude, you are the one who still hasn't explained any of his reads. I don't think everyone here lacks content.
-
I'm starting to feel mcmc doesn't have any genuine reads and is just shooting suspicion everywhere to see what sticks.
-
I think people need to go back and look at Nkirbit's interactions more. That's the biggest piece of information we have. And I think there's more reason to link him with Ashersky than with anyone else. The two biggest pieces of information I get from Nkirbit and his interactions D1 are that Ash is probably scum, and Chairs is probably town.
For all the people bemoaning a lack of D2, I don't know if anyone else has really gone back and looked at D1, specifically at Nkirbit and his actions. Do this! It will make catching scum easier!
-
TA is being extremely pro-town right now. Extremely.
-
Going back to my case versus Ash's case:
A large part of my case on Ash was based on interactions with Nkirbit. Looking back, there's a definite connection between Nkirbit and AShersky. Nkirbit chose to not push the Ashersky wagon when it was going, but to redirect elsewhere and to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This was an attempt to discredit the wagon, and to get it to fall apart, I believe. Regardless, though, we know that Nkirbit chose to not find Ashersky scummy when he had four other people voting for him. Could be an attempt to get town cred, could be an attempt to cover for a partner. I lean the second.
Ashersky's case is mostly built on the fact that I overplayed my hand in creating my case on him. I exaggerated and lied in building the case, he says. In essence, it's an extended, pretty-looking OMGUS. His case doesn't go back on anything that happened D1, but consists entirely of discrediting my case. He says it looks like I made my case N2, and that I've been tunneling him since D1, and purposely killing off pro-Ash townies in order to set up his lynch. His case, though, is basically (his words) "that I've painted myself into a scummy corner".
I don't know how people aren't seeing the case on Ash. There are scummy interactions with Nkirbit. There are! Ash's case on me basically amounts to "TA made a bad case". Yet, Ash should know that bad cases don't come from scum exclusively, it's also very possible for town to make a bad case. However, the fact that I made a bad case has made Ashersky sure that I'm scum.
Raerae, liopoil, those of you who don't see the Ashersky case as having reason, please ask me why and I'll try to prove to why exactly why Ashersky is scum. (whether that happens today or tomorrow)
-
Voltaire (6): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz (L-1) -
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, raerae, liopoil, Snow (L-1)
mcmcsalot: (1) ashersky
So, if chairs is town, this is pretty useless as scum doesn't really care which townie gets lynched.
So, what needs to be true for chairs to be scum? Well, nkirbit was on him all day, would a second member of their team stay on him when it looked like a very real possibility he could be the lynch? I doubt it, so for chairs to be scum, the third one would need to be Jimm, Ta or mcmc. Is this reasonable?
-
Jeez eevee, gimme some time to respond :)
I think your scummy because your ash position struck me as odd early on, the way you interpreted how he was playing early felt like you had an agenda. Later your reads have just conflicted with mine. You found me and robz suspicious for supporting each other and found robz scummy for his depression. You were very wrong on robz and I don't think it was scummy of us to support eachother(you have of course not mentioned it now that he flipped town) hence why I think you are playing very scummily.
I also think both wagons were on town. I think scum split up so sadly I doubt we can use the wagon for much other than I agree chairs is towny.
-
Finding chairs towny is an ok result though, one less target.
I never heavily pushed finding your interactions with Robz odd. It was the first time I had seen you guys agree on everything so nicely, it struck to me as odd, I pointed it out. I didn't even remember the whole thing before you brought it up again. Maybe you did because I was right about it?
You saying I'm scummy for not pushing it now that Robz has flipped scum is again super scummy to me. If I was scum, wouldn't I exactly want to do that - line up my mislynches by saying "well, mcmc was the scum in that duo it seems!? On the contrary, I was actually one of the more pro-mcmc players earlier today, it is of late that your positions that aren't making sense to me are raising red flags.
-
Finding chairs towny is an ok result though, one less target.
I never heavily pushed finding your interactions with Robz odd. It was the first time I had seen you guys agree on everything so nicely, it struck to me as odd, I pointed it out. I didn't even remember the whole thing before you brought it up again. Maybe you did because I was right about it?
You saying I'm scummy for not pushing it now that Robz has flipped scum is again super scummy to me. If I was scum, wouldn't I exactly want to do that - line up my mislynches by saying "well, mcmc was the scum in that duo it seems!? On the contrary, I was actually one of the more pro-mcmc players earlier today, it is of late that your positions that aren't making sense to me are raising red flags.
The reason I found your not bringing it up(and even forgetting about it) scummy was because it was an interaction that I personally found very townie on both our parts, a confirmed towny has had a strong town read on me, and you noted that interaction. You now have not brought that up, which doesn't seem to be something town eevee would do, I think town eevee notes that interaction, is curious, and applies that later when the number of people have dwindled to scum hunt.
-
Also throwing this out there. Me, robz, shraeye, and TA, were pretty confidently on volt and not chairs. That leaves just Jimm as a potential swing to chairs, makes the possibility of nk bussing chairs for towncred with ash waiting to decide what he needs to do till the last minute more likely.
-
Also throwing this out there. Me, robz, shraeye, and TA, were pretty confidently on volt and not chairs. That leaves just Jimm as a potential swing to chairs, makes the possibility of nk bussing chairs for towncred with ash waiting to decide what he needs to do till the last minute more likely.
Yes, but, some of this happened after Chairs got to L-1, and after he claimed. I wasn't sold until I saw the VT claim, personally. I just don't think Nkirbit risks his partner getting to L-1 on D1. He was one of the drivers of that wagon, not someone who popped on later. I doubt scum drives a fellow-scum wagon on D1, it's just not a great move to make.
-
So, just based on the last couple pages...
nkirbit/ashersky/mcmcs as a scumteam. It puts one of the scum on each wagon and one off (on his fellow mafia member, no less) allowing for a "why would I think mcmc was scum if I was scum" argument later for ash.
Thoughts?
-
So, just based on the last couple pages...
nkirbit/ashersky/mcmcs as a scumteam. It puts one of the scum on each wagon and one off (on his fellow mafia member, no less) allowing for a "why would I think mcmc was scum if I was scum" argument later for ash.
Thoughts?
I think it's Nkirbit/Ashersky/x. I doubt it's Mcmc if Ashersky is scum. I don't see the utility in calling the entire team now, though! One at a time -- it's not LYLO, so we just need to catch 1 scum right now.
-
So, just based on the last couple pages...
nkirbit/ashersky/mcmcs as a scumteam. It puts one of the scum on each wagon and one off (on his fellow mafia member, no less) allowing for a "why would I think mcmc was scum if I was scum" argument later for ash.
Thoughts?
Plausible, but not the only possibility.
-
Certainly I'm not sold on a scumteam. I am leaning more and more ashersky, however, and based on that I'm trying to decide who I might think is #3.
-
I guess my argument here is that we should either lynch ash, or no-lynch. I still feel like no-lynch is the right move, statistically, as it buys our PR another night and doesn't lose us a lynch.
-
I agree.
-
Everyone agrees on no lynch...
We are simply using the day as well...
So what argument are you making???
Why do you personally find ash scummy?
Do you think I am scummy or I it with an ash nk team?
-
Who are you asking, Mcmc?
-
Finding chairs towny is an ok result though, one less target.
I never heavily pushed finding your interactions with Robz odd. It was the first time I had seen you guys agree on everything so nicely, it struck to me as odd, I pointed it out. I didn't even remember the whole thing before you brought it up again. Maybe you did because I was right about it?
You saying I'm scummy for not pushing it now that Robz has flipped scum is again super scummy to me. If I was scum, wouldn't I exactly want to do that - line up my mislynches by saying "well, mcmc was the scum in that duo it seems!? On the contrary, I was actually one of the more pro-mcmc players earlier today, it is of late that your positions that aren't making sense to me are raising red flags.
The reason I found your not bringing it up(and even forgetting about it) scummy was because it was an interaction that I personally found very townie on both our parts, a confirmed towny has had a strong town read on me, and you noted that interaction. You now have not brought that up, which doesn't seem to be something town eevee would do, I think town eevee notes that interaction, is curious, and applies that later when the number of people have dwindled to scum hunt.
You seem to forget I originally thought that that interaction made it more likely that one (and exactly one) of you two is scum. Robz's record of reading you isn't exactly stellar, fwiw.
-
Are mcmc's accusations towards me making sense to others? I have a hard time following his logic, to be honest.
-
Questions were at chairs,
I did forget that eevee, it changes things.
-
Are mcmc's accusations towards me making sense to others? I have a hard time following his logic, to be honest.
same here. I don't know why he thinks that raerae and I are town (because I haven't been especially townie, I've been quiet). And I don't really suspect eevee at all.
-
Going back to my case versus Ash's case:
A large part of my case on Ash was based on interactions with Nkirbit. Looking back, there's a definite connection between Nkirbit and AShersky. Nkirbit chose to not push the Ashersky wagon when it was going, but to redirect elsewhere and to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This was an attempt to discredit the wagon, and to get it to fall apart, I believe. Regardless, though, we know that Nkirbit chose to not find Ashersky scummy when he had four other people voting for him. Could be an attempt to get town cred, could be an attempt to cover for a partner. I lean the second.
Ashersky's case is mostly built on the fact that I overplayed my hand in creating my case on him. I exaggerated and lied in building the case, he says. In essence, it's an extended, pretty-looking OMGUS. His case doesn't go back on anything that happened D1, but consists entirely of discrediting my case. He says it looks like I made my case N2, and that I've been tunneling him since D1, and purposely killing off pro-Ash townies in order to set up his lynch. His case, though, is basically (his words) "that I've painted myself into a scummy corner".
I don't know how people aren't seeing the case on Ash. There are scummy interactions with Nkirbit. There are! Ash's case on me basically amounts to "TA made a bad case". Yet, Ash should know that bad cases don't come from scum exclusively, it's also very possible for town to make a bad case. However, the fact that I made a bad case has made Ashersky sure that I'm scum.
Raerae, liopoil, those of you who don't see the Ashersky case as having reason, please ask me why and I'll try to prove to why exactly why Ashersky is scum. (whether that happens today or tomorrow)
I think you gave yourself away here. Look at your first line. How could a large part of your case be based on nkirbit interactions, when your case against me has been going strong since D1? You know that I'm not lying here. None of us knew nkirbit was scum D1 except for his partners. I think that's where you've messed up. Your knowledge from D1 you've added into your case retroactively...it isn't knowledge a towny would have.
You are caught.
-
Everyone agrees on no lynch...
We are simply using the day as well...
So what argument are you making???
Why do you personally find ash scummy?
Do you think I am scummy or I it with an ash nk team?
If we all agree on no-lynch, then I don't necessarily feel like I've got to make an argument. This whole time I've been assuming that TA and Ash were still sold on lynching one of them.
I find Ash scummy primarily based on the re-read of liopoil I did - I noticed quite a few posts shortly before or after lio posts that made me twitch.
I think you fit with an ash/nkirbit team, I haven't gotten a scum-vibe off of you in particular.
-
My case d1 was based on the gambit, which I thought was scummy. Today I added the nkirbit stuff.
If you are town I'm going to love your reaction when you see my flip. But you won't be shocked since you are really scum.
-
Ash, do you have any other case against me other than that I "gave myself away" with my terrible case on you?
-
I find Ash scummy primarily based on the re-read of liopoil I did
put this in the out-of-context thread :P.
but actually, I think I am going to reread Ashersky. partially to get a good read on ashersky, but partially to look more closely at his case on TA and so to read TA as well.
-
Ash, do you have any other case against me other than that I "gave myself away" with my terrible case on you?
I think you have had multiple posts which give away the fact that you have more knowledge than the rest of us. That's my primary scum hunting tactic in all games. I look for wording choices, odd constructions, anachronisms, etc. which tell me who might be scum.
In the end, anyone can fake anything when it comes to behavior, opinion, etc. You can't help having the extra knowledge. How well you hide it is up to you, but subconsciously, you will let things slip (sometimes on purpose). Everyone does when they are scum. It's up to town to find it.
Separately, if you want "traditional" scum stuff, like things you might quote in a case: I think your opening post was rolefishing (the one about maybe planning for the hider) because as scum, you don't want to target the hider. I think you have been pushing bad cases on townies, such as myself. I think you've made sure to agree with townies at specific junctures to gain towncred (often with Eevee, a few times with me to soften your mislynch case on me, Chairs).
Do I have scumreads on others? Sure. But none so strong as on you.
As for the look on my face if you were to somehow flip town? Yeah, that would suck. No more than how badly you'll feel if you are town and get me mislynched.
-
The more they talk the more ash looks like town and the more TA looks like scum. This particular game is proving quite difficult.
-
mod request: could the first post be updated with the current information and day start links.
My hard drive burned out a few days ago so I am limited to phone access and will be for the next week. (Stupid me for now backing up my OS so I have to wait for a windows disk) I would very much appreciate the update as it makes navigation much easier. Thanks!
sure
Yuma, is the flavor just flavor, or should we try to read into it?
The only thing I can say about that is what I said before:
This flavor name will be a character from the Movie Clue. One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what
-
and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what
I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?
-
and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what
I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?
The killer form the movie/mini-game that is not related to the actual mafia game
-
and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what
I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?
The killer form the movie/mini-game that is not related to the actual mafia game
Thanks. That was my assumption, and as such I wasn't using the flavor to scumhunt.
-
TA reread:
First post of the game is an awful claimy hider plan and a complete skip of RVS. Scummy & null respectively.
Post 127 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.0;all)says a 1-1 is better than confirming town. I fully disagree with this. Obviously it's better to have one less mislynch available and one more voice to trust than to kill one scum. Especially if you hit scum N1 like UoS did. I mean, yes, is the downside still pretty damn positive? Yes! Of course! But would it have been better to go into D3 knowing that person A, B, AND C are town? Super yes! *Gets down off soap box* Now, does this speak to alignment? I think a bit. A 1-1 trade benefits scum more than town finding town so I feel like this is a bit scummy.
#355 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.0;all)- original vote on ash, seems like a lot for D1, especially considering TA recently admitted to it being a "gambit" recently. 1) I don't know that I've heard town reference their reaction fishing as a "gambit", and 2) the case itself just feels inflated and stretched
#358, 384, 386, 511, 558, 592 push his ash case again. If it's just a gambit, why continue to pursue it throughout the day?
This is scum TA distancing himself from both lynches. He did this in Innovation to try to gain towncred. Admits both lynches are bad but doesn't do anything to stop either.
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
#812 is more of the "Guys, I don't like this...but OK, fine..."
Vote on Volt (not that close to deadline, for the record). Town TA doesn't ever vote for somebody he thinks may be town. Town TA sticks to his guns, doesn't wishy washy around like this, and certainly doesn't vote for somebody he believes to be town over somebody he believes to be scum.
Vote: Voltaire
I hate voting for someone I think is probably town, but I think that Chairs will flip town, and I believe his claim. I'm less confident in my town-read on Voltaire, but I think these are our only two options, and I don't want to see Chairs lynched.
#848 - longest post chiding shraeye for calling similarities between his Innovation and Clue playstyle. This feels unnecessary and overly long when shraeye wasn't even seriously accusing TA of much, it was more lingering suspicion and he hadn't even bothered to form a case. Guess who showed up dead the next day? Oh yeah, shraeye.
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?
And this is the one thing that bothered me most. Robz asked for the direct quote from UoS stating he was following the plan but all TA did was put the wording in quotes. He didn't do the work, he didn't look back, he didn't find the quote.
And this doesn't read genuine to me at all. One more example of wishy washy scum TA.
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
And today has just been one scummy post after another. His insistence that ash is scum and pure reluctance to look elsewhere is nothing more than scum trying to push a lynch he's been trying to push since D1 so he won't actually have to do any work. Push a case just enough so people know you're around but don't actually do any scum hunting.
Vote: TwistedArcher
-
Going back to my case versus Ash's case:
A large part of my case on Ash was based on interactions with Nkirbit. Looking back, there's a definite connection between Nkirbit and AShersky. Nkirbit chose to not push the Ashersky wagon when it was going, but to redirect elsewhere and to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This was an attempt to discredit the wagon, and to get it to fall apart, I believe. Regardless, though, we know that Nkirbit chose to not find Ashersky scummy when he had four other people voting for him. Could be an attempt to get town cred, could be an attempt to cover for a partner. I lean the second.
Ashersky's case is mostly built on the fact that I overplayed my hand in creating my case on him. I exaggerated and lied in building the case, he says. In essence, it's an extended, pretty-looking OMGUS. His case doesn't go back on anything that happened D1, but consists entirely of discrediting my case. He says it looks like I made my case N2, and that I've been tunneling him since D1, and purposely killing off pro-Ash townies in order to set up his lynch. His case, though, is basically (his words) "that I've painted myself into a scummy corner".
I don't know how people aren't seeing the case on Ash. There are scummy interactions with Nkirbit. There are! Ash's case on me basically amounts to "TA made a bad case". Yet, Ash should know that bad cases don't come from scum exclusively, it's also very possible for town to make a bad case. However, the fact that I made a bad case has made Ashersky sure that I'm scum.
Raerae, liopoil, those of you who don't see the Ashersky case as having reason, please ask me why and I'll try to prove to why exactly why Ashersky is scum. (whether that happens today or tomorrow)
I think you gave yourself away here. Look at your first line. How could a large part of your case be based on nkirbit interactions, when your case against me has been going strong since D1? You know that I'm not lying here. None of us knew nkirbit was scum D1 except for his partners. I think that's where you've messed up. Your knowledge from D1 you've added into your case retroactively...it isn't knowledge a towny would have.
You are caught.
A large part of my case, posted D3, today, was based on interactions with Nkirbit. It was one of my 3 main points. I didn't know Nkirbit was scum until N2 (well, I was 99% sure D2, since I trusted UoS of all people to follow a theory-based plan).
I added in that knowledge to my case once it became available that Nkirbit was scum. After the Robz flip, I went back to read Nkirbit's interactions. You came out scummiest. I had point 1 (your self-vote gambit) since D1. I formed the third point, your end of days actions, as part of my re-read.
I had a scum read on you D1. This was reinforced after looking at Nkirbit's interactions. I don't get where I am coming off as having too much information, but you're making accusations that don't hold water here.
-
Ash, do you have any other case against me other than that I "gave myself away" with my terrible case on you?
I think you have had multiple posts which give away the fact that you have more knowledge than the rest of us. That's my primary scum hunting tactic in all games. I look for wording choices, odd constructions, anachronisms, etc. which tell me who might be scum.
In the end, anyone can fake anything when it comes to behavior, opinion, etc. You can't help having the extra knowledge. How well you hide it is up to you, but subconsciously, you will let things slip (sometimes on purpose). Everyone does when they are scum. It's up to town to find it.
Separately, if you want "traditional" scum stuff, like things you might quote in a case: I think your opening post was rolefishing (the one about maybe planning for the hider) because as scum, you don't want to target the hider. I think you have been pushing bad cases on townies, such as myself. I think you've made sure to agree with townies at specific junctures to gain towncred (often with Eevee, a few times with me to soften your mislynch case on me, Chairs).
Do I have scumreads on others? Sure. But none so strong as on you.
As for the look on my face if you were to somehow flip town? Yeah, that would suck. No more than how badly you'll feel if you are town and get me mislynched.
Which posts? Sure, there's my "scumslip", and then you mentioned just now that I incorporated the Nkirbit stuff in earlier than I did, which just isn't true. But if you're going to state that there's "several posts", you need to actually quote them. Your claim is false.
-
The more they talk the more ash looks like town and the more TA looks like scum. This particular game is proving quite difficult.
Do you think this is more because Ash is a better, more convincing writer than me, or that his case is actually good?
His case itself is pretty weak. The only case is that I am pushing a bad case, and possibly that I knew Nkirbit was scum and incorporated that into my Ashersky case before it was public knowledge (which isn't true, but I think that's what Ash is saying, correct me if I'm wrong). Meanwhile, I have an actual case, with interactions, interpretation of Ashersky's actions, etc. All Ashersky has is a rebuttal that my case is "bad", and that I've been tunneling him.
By the way, one point I'd like to address. Ashersky thinks I've been planning this, and tunnelling him. Yes, I agree. I've been focused on Ashersky.
But here's one point he mentioned -- he says that I've purposely been killing off pro-Ashersky townies as scum. Ashersky has mentioned, either in this game or another, that during the day, when town is scum-hunting, scum is PR-hunting. I know he said this, and I can't remember if it was in this game or another, but I'll dig for it. But he's suggesting that scum is killing, NOT to PR hunt, but to make a mislynch of Ashersky easier.
Ashersky's suggesting that I have been tunnelling, building a mislynch case, and directing night kills, just to get this one mislynch. Does this REALLY seem like a more likely outcome to everyone than me simply being town and thinking that I've found scum? What he's accusing me of is terrible scum play, and going all-in to get ONE mislynch. Scum don't win the game with one mislynch, they win it with 3 or 4. I just don't get anyone who thinks I've been going at Ashersky this hard, when if he gets lynched and turns up town, I WILL be the next lynch.
-
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
Vote: Voltaire
Interesting to note this post, given the result. This was the first vote ever on Voltaire, I believe.
-
Ashersky's suggesting that I have been tunnelling, building a mislynch case, and directing night kills, just to get this one mislynch. Does this REALLY seem like a more likely outcome to everyone than me simply being town and thinking that I've found scum? What he's accusing me of is terrible scum play, and going all-in to get ONE mislynch. Scum don't win the game with one mislynch, they win it with 3 or 4. I just don't get anyone who thinks I've been going at Ashersky this hard, when if he gets lynched and turns up town, I WILL be the next lynch.
TA, scum has gotten 1 mislynch already, plus a bonus Hider death and 2 NKs. I'd only be the 2nd mislynch, but still, pretty good shape for you. You die, then mislynch again you have your 3. I don't see how this is a good defense.
-
Several things Ash has done have struck me as off.
First, there's the fact that he's angry at town for directing what hider does, yet he's doing that more than anyone else. He's directly saying that the hider should hide behind their town reads. This increases the probably for hider doubledeaths more than anything else.
He's saying the risk of hiding behind scum reads is that the hider could die without letting us know who they hid behind. But that's the exact point of the plan! I think finding scum is MUCH better than making an IC, personally. The problem is simply that it's so hard to communicate the scum target if the hider dies.
He's saying that "I think this is a bad idea, and since I love ideas like this but hate this one, you all should stop, now." I don't think it's a bad idea, and given that 2/3 of the town agrees, I think Ash's unwillingness to even consider the plan is anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.
Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
Here's TA's first post of a case on me. A lot of this is "what scum would do" stuff, which I believe is exactly what scum is both thinking about and looking to place onto their mislynch targets. It also has statements that are designed to look like strong town feelings by being so very anti-scum, but in fact are the opposite. These are examples of your scum extra knowledge leaking out. I've bolded what I think are good examples.
--"Angry at town, telling town what to do." This is something scum doesn't want to do, he sees me do it, calls it scummy.
--"Finding scum is better than making an IC." Generally false when you think about situations where we need to find more than one scum, like a game of mafia. If 1 for 1 trades were so bad for scum, why are fake claims worth it? This is a statement to look towny when in fact is anti-town.
--"Finds me scummy, but doesn't call me a scum read." A huge fear for scum is inconsistencies in their reads. Pointing them out in others is a great way to build crap cases.
--"first wagon never goes through." That's a huge tell there. Scum thinks about that in their QT. Town does not think of that, or mention it.
-
Here are back to back TA/Eevee posts that made me suspicious way back on D1.
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
But Scum!Ashersky has the knowledge of knowing that he's been lynched for this before, as town, and so it's less likely he'd be viewed as scum and lynched this time, right?
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.
As you said, Ash is a savvy scum player. Do you think it's savvy scum play to only do certain things when you are town?
-
Now we come to Raerae's case. I'll respond point by point.
TA reread:
First post of the game is an awful claimy hider plan and a complete skip of RVS. Scummy & null respectively.
This is the first time Raerae has noted a problem with my plan being "awful claimy". She disagreed merely on theory grounds, which she always does and always will do, but this is the first time I've seen such a complaint.
Giving me a scum read for this, when several others alive posted similar plans (Jimmmm came up with another plan, so did Liopoil, Eevee supported the plan, Mcmc supported the plan, and I believeeeee Chairs supported the plan) is odd. You could have made this same accusation of several players, but you made it at me.
I was being genuine in my plan, trying to help town (which it did!), but there's no way for me to prove that to you other than just saying that's what I meant.
Post 127 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.0;all)says a 1-1 is better than confirming town. I fully disagree with this. Obviously it's better to have one less mislynch available and one more voice to trust than to kill one scum. Especially if you hit scum N1 like UoS did. I mean, yes, is the downside still pretty damn positive? Yes! Of course! But would it have been better to go into D3 knowing that person A, B, AND C are town? Super yes! *Gets down off soap box* Now, does this speak to alignment? I think a bit. A 1-1 trade benefits scum more than town finding town so I feel like this is a bit scummy.
Aren't you the same person who says that theory talk is terrible, because it causes people who have disagreements to find each other scummy?
Fact of the matter is, we start with 10 town and 3 scum. Trading 1 for 1 is great, we have townies to spare. But that's theory and hey we disagree, no biggie.
The fact that you have said that theory is bad because it causes disagreements and scum reads which are unrelated to alignment, but you are using a theory difference to find me scummy, is a big contradiction.
#355 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=8409.0;all)- original vote on ash, seems like a lot for D1, especially considering TA recently admitted to it being a "gambit" recently. 1) I don't know that I've heard town reference their reaction fishing as a "gambit", and 2) the case itself just feels inflated and stretched
#358, 384, 386, 511, 558, 592 push his ash case again. If it's just a gambit, why continue to pursue it throughout the day?
I think it was a gambit by Ashersky to attempt to gain town credit, as I stated several time. I found it incredibly scummy. So did Eevee, why aren't you attacking him for it?
This is scum TA distancing himself from both lynches. He did this in Innovation to try to gain towncred. Admits both lynches are bad but doesn't do anything to stop either.
I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.
I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.
I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.
#812 is more of the "Guys, I don't like this...but OK, fine..."
Vote on Volt (not that close to deadline, for the record). Town TA doesn't ever vote for somebody he thinks may be town. Town TA sticks to his guns, doesn't wishy washy around like this, and certainly doesn't vote for somebody he believes to be town over somebody he believes to be scum.
I had no options. It was Volt or Chairs. I believed Chairs was VT, I was less certain on Volt.
I thought Volt was probably town, but there was more of a chance of him being scum than Chairs.
Once again, Eevee had a similar reaction. So, too, did Ashersky. I find Ashersky scummy for it, even though I did it, because, well, I know I'm town. I would expect Ashersky to find me scummy for it too, if he were town, because, well, he would know he was town. But I don't know how you can find me scummy for this, but not Ashersky, when the things we were saying towards the end of the day were pretty similar.
#848 - longest post chiding shraeye for calling similarities between his Innovation and Clue playstyle. This feels unnecessary and overly long when shraeye wasn't even seriously accusing TA of much, it was more lingering suspicion and he hadn't even bothered to form a case. Guess who showed up dead the next day? Oh yeah, shraeye.
I believed that Shraeye was picking and choosing when to apply similarites and differences. I still believe that he was doing that.
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
This will get a post of its own, after this one, because I want it to get a post. This is the most blatant example of you searching for reasons to find me scummy.
Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?
And this is the one thing that bothered me most. Robz asked for the direct quote from UoS stating he was following the plan but all TA did was put the wording in quotes. He didn't do the work, he didn't look back, he didn't find the quote.
UoS bolded the plan. I said that. What more is there to go find?
And this doesn't read genuine to me at all. One more example of wishy washy scum TA.
I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.
I would have been super frustrated. Frustration is scummy now?
And today has just been one scummy post after another. His insistence that ash is scum and pure reluctance to look elsewhere is nothing more than scum trying to push a lynch he's been trying to push since D1 so he won't actually have to do any work. Push a case just enough so people know you're around but don't actually do any scum hunting.
Vote: TwistedArcher
You can accuse me of many things, but you can't possibly be accusing me of not scumhunting. I'm the ONLY person to build a case today!
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.
We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.
This TA response is fishy in a lot of ways. It sounds a lot like a scum-trying-to-sound-towny post. It also sounds like a message to a scum partner to vote (if Jimmmmm is scum, which is possible).
-
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.
What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.
She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.
Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!
-
Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.
Vote: Voltaire
Interesting to note this post, given the result. This was the first vote ever on Voltaire, I believe.
Yeah. Those things were scummy. Do you disagree?
-
I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum. I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective. I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).
Just because it could work doesn't mean it's good.
Just like even though a number of folks agree with it doesn't make it a good plan (as TA would have you believe). A lot of people believed in a lot of things that turned out to be terrible, terrible ideas.
As you can tell, I'm re-reading TA. I feel like this is what scum wants though, whether I'm right or wrong about him. If I'm right, he wants to be the trade off lynch anyway. If I'm wrong, we're not looking at scum at all.
Anyway, here's a post from ME, on D1, admitting the plan might actually work regardless of my unhappiness with it. I just wanted to remind you all of that.
It'd be great to know why UoS actually chose Nkirbit, though.
-
Several things Ash has done have struck me as off.
First, there's the fact that he's angry at town for directing what hider does, yet he's doing that more than anyone else. He's directly saying that the hider should hide behind their town reads. This increases the probably for hider doubledeaths more than anything else.
He's saying the risk of hiding behind scum reads is that the hider could die without letting us know who they hid behind. But that's the exact point of the plan! I think finding scum is MUCH better than making an IC, personally. The problem is simply that it's so hard to communicate the scum target if the hider dies.
He's saying that "I think this is a bad idea, and since I love ideas like this but hate this one, you all should stop, now." I don't think it's a bad idea, and given that 2/3 of the town agrees, I think Ash's unwillingness to even consider the plan is anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.
Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.
Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.
Vote: Ashersky
Here's TA's first post of a case on me. A lot of this is "what scum would do" stuff, which I believe is exactly what scum is both thinking about and looking to place onto their mislynch targets. It also has statements that are designed to look like strong town feelings by being so very anti-scum, but in fact are the opposite. These are examples of your scum extra knowledge leaking out. I've bolded what I think are good examples.
--"Angry at town, telling town what to do." This is something scum doesn't want to do, he sees me do it, calls it scummy.
--"Finding scum is better than making an IC." Generally false when you think about situations where we need to find more than one scum, like a game of mafia. If 1 for 1 trades were so bad for scum, why are fake claims worth it? This is a statement to look towny when in fact is anti-town.
--"Finds me scummy, but doesn't call me a scum read." A huge fear for scum is inconsistencies in their reads. Pointing them out in others is a great way to build crap cases.
--"first wagon never goes through." That's a huge tell there. Scum thinks about that in their QT. Town does not think of that, or mention it.
So, pointing out scum tells is scummy? I don't get what you're saying here. This might make sense, if each game was played in a vacuum. But they're not. Most of us have played scum before, and know how scum and town think.
I don't get your point here -- scumhunting from the viewpoint of "what scum would do" is not scummy -- it's a useful tool to catch scum!
-
I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?
In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.
Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.
PPE 6
I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.
We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.
This TA response is fishy in a lot of ways. It sounds a lot like a scum-trying-to-sound-towny post. It also sounds like a message to a scum partner to vote (if Jimmmmm is scum, which is possible).
Sure, it's a post scum would make. But guess what? It's also a post town would make, too! The fact that you're calling me scummy for null theory posts is the real scummy thing here. You, like Raerae, are searching for posts to prove that I'm scummy, rather than looking at posts to determine my scumminess.
-
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.
What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.
She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.
Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!
This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA. She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."
She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider. You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider. It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.
You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away. I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.
-
I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum. I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective. I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).
Just because it could work doesn't mean it's good.
Just like even though a number of folks agree with it doesn't make it a good plan (as TA would have you believe). A lot of people believed in a lot of things that turned out to be terrible, terrible ideas.
As you can tell, I'm re-reading TA. I feel like this is what scum wants though, whether I'm right or wrong about him. If I'm right, he wants to be the trade off lynch anyway. If I'm wrong, we're not looking at scum at all.
Anyway, here's a post from ME, on D1, admitting the plan might actually work regardless of my unhappiness with it. I just wanted to remind you all of that.
It'd be great to know why UoS actually chose Nkirbit, though.
UoS hid behind Nkirbit because of the plan. I'm 100% certain of that.
The hider plan was broken because we had a list of 13 flavor names. We can discuss this post game, but it was absolutely broken, and definitely a good idea. I'd do it again 1000/1000 times.
-
Sure, it's a post scum would make. But guess what? It's also a post town would make, too! The fact that you're calling me scummy for null theory posts is the real scummy thing here. You, like Raerae, are searching for posts to prove that I'm scummy, rather than looking at posts to determine my scumminess.
You asked me to build a case. I'm not going to go build a case that you are town, because I think you are scum.
You aren't quoting things that make me more likely to be town for my benefit, either.
-
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.
What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.
She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.
Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!
This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA. She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."
She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider. You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider. It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.
You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away. I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.
-
I've said all I think I need to say. Ashersky is totally scum. He's coming up with anything and everything to paint me as scummy. I get this, since if he's town, he has really good reason to suspect I'm town.
What's even fishier, though, is Raerae. Like Ashersky, she's coming up with anything and everything to paint me as scum, rather than trying to identify my scumminess. Unlike Ashersky, though, she doesn't have the benefit of knowing either one of our alignments, if she is scum. She's either Ashersky's partner, or is happily piling onto a town-on-town fight, I think. I don't think her actions make sense as a town.
One of my main scum tells (not one I used to find AShersky, though) is people trying to prove a point that someone is scum, rather than ascertain scumminess (which is what a townie obviously wants to do). Raerae is setting off alarm bells on this front, right now.
-
I made it to page 18 of the re-read, but since TA seems to have given up, I might as well.
Are you all still sold on a no-lynch? I absolutely believe that one of TA and I have to die for this game to move forward.
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
Forum Friday is my Saturday, so I can lay a no-lynch vote down on Forum Thursday. Should be fine.
I mean, I don't oppose a no lynch in principle. I just think, someone dies, then we pick up this argument tomorrow.
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
Forum Friday is my Saturday, so I can lay a no-lynch vote down on Forum Thursday. Should be fine.
I mean, I don't oppose a no lynch in principle. I just think, someone dies, then we pick up this argument tomorrow.
I agree. Kinda anti-climatic, and doesn't move the game forward, but I think the possibility of PR catching a scum outweighs it. To me, I'll lynch you today or I'll lynch you tomorrow, makes no difference to me! ;)
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
Forum Friday is my Saturday, so I can lay a no-lynch vote down on Forum Thursday. Should be fine.
I mean, I don't oppose a no lynch in principle. I just think, someone dies, then we pick up this argument tomorrow.
I agree. Kinda anti-climatic, and doesn't move the game forward, but I think the possibility of PR catching a scum outweighs it. To me, I'll lynch you today or I'll lynch you tomorrow, makes no difference to me! ;)
Honestly, if they haven't already, the Psychologist is investigating you or me. So 50/50 chance, I guess.
-
i can drop the hammer whenever as well.
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
Forum Friday is my Saturday, so I can lay a no-lynch vote down on Forum Thursday. Should be fine.
I mean, I don't oppose a no lynch in principle. I just think, someone dies, then we pick up this argument tomorrow.
I agree. Kinda anti-climatic, and doesn't move the game forward, but I think the possibility of PR catching a scum outweighs it. To me, I'll lynch you today or I'll lynch you tomorrow, makes no difference to me! ;)
Honestly, if they haven't already, the Psychologist is investigating you or me. So 50/50 chance, I guess.
...how do you know one of you is scum? Now who has more information!
-
My take on TA-Ash:
(After the nolynch) I would prefer to lynch someone other than those two, because I think it's practically impossible for them both to be scum411, but I can see both being town pretty easily and I find it really really hard to pick between the two.
Better targets in liopoil, raerae and mcmc in my opinion. It's interesting that mcmc thinks ash is scum and raerae thinks that TA is scum.
Should we post those silly read lists before heading to the night?
raerae/liopoil
mcmc
ashersky/TA/Jimmm
chairs
Btw mcmc is finding me scummy for suspecting ashersky day 1, as far as I can see that was the crux of his case. Yet, at the end of this day when everyone else was picking between chairs and Voltaire (I really really opposed lynching Voltaire, btw), mcmc's vote was parked on ashersky. Mcmc, you chose to have you vote on ashersky instead of some of the more viable lynches, yet you call me scummy for suspecting him day 1. Can you explain this?
Reason for the townier read on Jimmm is just that he is so egregiously lurky, he couldn't expect to survive veyr long if he was scum. There is a precedent for town Jimmm lurking due to irl, scum Jimmm's activity surely would be affected by real life but I think he'd make more of an effort when he were here. Jimm buddy, you are hurting town with your lack of activity though.
-
It was the reasoning. Ashersky's gambit early day 1 looked hugely like town ashersky, as it dragged on and began being destructive to town it led me to believe him to be more scum ashersky. You thought he was scummy based on the original gambit whic I found towny.
It's not strong, that added to other things I have felt you have interpreted differently makes you slightly scummy.
-
Vote Count 3.7
Everyone gasped when the missionary said yuma's name. The Singing Telegram Girl began to scream. So did Mr. Green.
"Why are you screaming," asked Col. Mustard.
"Because I am afraid," said Mr. Green.
"What are you afraid of?"
"Screaming!"
No lynch: (3) liopoil, Jimmmmmm, mcmc (L-2)
TA: (2) ashersky, raerae
Not voting: (3) TA, Eevee, chairs
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
I still want to no-lynch. Give the PR another chance.
Let's schedule the no-lynch for friday! weekends are busy for everyone anyways, so having the weekend be night would be awesome.
Forum Friday is my Saturday, so I can lay a no-lynch vote down on Forum Thursday. Should be fine.
I mean, I don't oppose a no lynch in principle. I just think, someone dies, then we pick up this argument tomorrow.
I agree. Kinda anti-climatic, and doesn't move the game forward, but I think the possibility of PR catching a scum outweighs it. To me, I'll lynch you today or I'll lynch you tomorrow, makes no difference to me! ;)
Honestly, if they haven't already, the Psychologist is investigating you or me. So 50/50 chance, I guess.
...how do you know one of you is scum? Now who has more information!
To add on to that, how do you know it's a Psychologist and not a detective?
-
Vote: No-lynch That's L-1.
-
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.
What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.
She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.
Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!
This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA. She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."
She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider. You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider. It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.
You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away. I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.
Eevee, Mcmc, Chairs, anyone else, I want to draw your attention to this post, again, since none of you commented on it. This is Raerae accusing me of something that's impossible, me stating that it's impossible, and Ashersky defending Raerae's reasoning.
To me, there's clearly scum in raerae/Ashersky trying to paint me as scummy for any reason possible. I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were scum!
-
First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind. He came out of the gate and called it right away. Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody. TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it. His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.
I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.
What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.
She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.
Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!
This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA. She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."
She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider. You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider. It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.
You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away. I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.
Eevee, Mcmc, Chairs, anyone else, I want to draw your attention to this post, again, since none of you commented on it. This is Raerae accusing me of something that's impossible, me stating that it's impossible, and Ashersky defending Raerae's reasoning.
To me, there's clearly scum in raerae/Ashersky trying to paint me as scummy for any reason possible. I wouldn't be surprised if both of them were scum!
I saw the post but had to rush from my work desk immediately afterwards. I agree it looks... odd, at best.
-
Raerae and ashersky, how do you defend yourself against what TA is saying?
-
you know, I'm willing to just end the day now with no lynch and come back to this tommorow. I don't think it's a big deal if we don't say much more today. anyone willing to hammer?
-
Raerae and ashersky, how do you defend yourself against what TA is saying?
There is nothing against which I need to defend.
Raerae said "abcd makes TA scum."
TA said "raerae said defg makes me scummy, and defg is impossible! She's scum!"
I responded "raerae actually said abcd, not defg, stop lying and making shit up TA, you are scum"
TA came back with a quote and no words.
Raerae said one thing, I agreed. TA is continuing to act like she said something else.
-
Guys, I just super burned my hand and would prefer to ice rather than one handed type right now. When is deadline?
-
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
Guys, I just super burned my hand and would prefer to ice rather than one handed type right now. When is deadline?
Hammer and send it into night! You'll need to type in your quicktopic tonight though, so I don't know how much help it'll be ;)
-
Hey, everybody, check out TA's # 1450, anybody catch this...
I've said all I think I need to say. Ashersky is totally scum. He's coming up with anything and everything to paint me as scummy. I get this, since if he's town, he has really good reason to suspect I'm town.
What's even fishier, though, is Raerae. Like Ashersky, she's coming up with anything and everything to paint me as scum, rather than trying to identify my scumminess. Unlike Ashersky, though, she doesn't have the benefit of knowing either one of our alignments, if she is scum. She's either Ashersky's partner, or is happily piling onto a town-on-town fight, I think. I don't think her actions make sense as a town.
One of my main scum tells (not one I used to find AShersky, though) is people trying to prove a point that someone is scum, rather than ascertain scumminess (which is what a townie obviously wants to do). Raerae is setting off alarm bells on this front, right now.
The boldfed is the part where TA admita i'm town but is still trying to say i'm scummy. If i were ascum, as TA is trying to assert, I would have "the benefit of knowing either one of" their alignments.
-
Oops. If she is scum -> if she is town
-
Oops. If she is scum -> if she is town
OK, Freud.
-
Oops. If she is scum -> if she is town
OK, Freud.
Like, slips like this happen many times every game. All the freaking time. Regardless of alignment.
-
Oops. If she is scum -> if she is town
OK, Freud.
Like, slips like this happen many times every game. All the freaking time. Regardless of alignment.
You nseem to be making a lot of them this game, sunshine...
-
I also got mislynched in Pirates because I made "slip" after "scummy statement" after "slip". Remember that?
-
I also got mislynched in Pirates because I made "slip" after "scummy statement" after "slip". Remember that?
Thedifference: you were town thsat game. Sweetie, you've been caught, give it up. yuo arent anythng like pirates TQA here. you are remarkably similar to Innovation TA though.
-
I also got mislynched in Pirates because I made "slip" after "scummy statement" after "slip". Remember that?
Thedifference: you were town thsat game. Sweetie, you've been caught, give it up. yuo arent anythng like pirates TQA here. you are remarkably similar to Innovation TA though.
I think Mcmc and Eevee are the only ones who were in both games, but I hope they can see the similarities between this and Pirates.
I've made my case on Ash. I think it's a damn good one. I KNOW I've caught scum with it. Even if I get mislynched, I still am confident we can win, because I am that sure of my scumreads. If town follows them after I die, we cannot lose this game.
-
also, TA is pissing susicion "(raerae is burbt and drunk) at everybdy. he only became susiciou of me after i said made a real live case on him. he isnt scumhinting, he's throwing shit
-
also, TA is pissing susicion "(raerae is burbt and drunk) at everybdy. he only became susiciou of me after i said made a real live case on him. he isnt scumhinting, he's throwing shit
I didn't know you were drunk until this post! And yes, I think you gave yourself away by accusing me of things that were impossible, I feel like that's a prettttyyyyy big giveaway.
-
I like how you're trying to get town to mislynch x 2. thats cute.
-
what was impossiblt?
-
No, I want town to follow me, cause I'm pretty sure that Ash is scum, and I'm less sure about you but still kinda certain at this point. If we lose this game, with me calling the scum team with 8 players remaining and building a case around it, I will be unhappy as can be.
But we can no-lynch and discuss this for tomorrow. Hopefully our PR will be able to help us out.
-
what was impossiblt?
That I knew UoS would target Nkirbit and die. Which you are claiming that I knew, and I instantly came out to vote Nkirbit to get town cred.
-
Dude, on the reread i would be shocked if anybiody difdnt see this coming. what did i so come n2...reread our n1 deaths. A newbie like UoS doesnt come out with a hider plan like he did if he werent the hider? hells to the f bomv no. Who's going to look at that bidnis? Scum. Ain't nobody else going to fpocus on that but mafia...the one roe it can actully affect.
-
Knowing what we know about UoS, I'm pretty sure UoS would have come up with that plan even if he was the hider. Besides, he didn't come up with it -- I did, and Jimmm perfected it.
What you're saying is that I knew UoS was the hider, and I knew he would hide behind Nkirbit specifically. Is this correct?
-
even if he wasn't the hider*** omg another typo, means I'm scum right?
-
I'm saying you're scum ANSD anybody who bothered to rereD Would have seen uod was the hider. who rereD? SCUM. brcause sure S biscuits didnt and qouldnt have had any need to. i'd given my eeads so what more could i contribute? you, on the other hand, lknew you'd be slive so decided to mkse the best of it.
-
Okay. Say that I was scum and I KNEW UoS was the hider. How would I know he'd hide behind Nkirbit, and not me, or not my unknown third partner?
-
dude, if you know uos id the hider...inasume you van count ton 13
-
Before or after the night? I mean, what I did it looked at UoS, looked at his flavor, and counted to thirteen. I even counted this out in-thread.
But you're saying that I'm scummy for being the first person to point this out. That I KNEW UoS was hider, and that I KNEW he'd die. I couldn't have possibly known he would die, even if I knew he was the hider. There was no possible way to tell flavor name, as far as I'm away.
I don't get how you are finding me scummy for being the first person to figure out that UoS hid behind Nkirbit, if that's all you're actually finding me scummy for me. But it seems like you're going beyond this -- you claimed that I knew that UoS would die behind Nkirbit before his death was revealed by Yuma. Which is not only false, but also impossible.
-
Dude, becuaudr, as scum, you counted it out and figured he'd land on your bdff kermit. if iwere scum, thats what i would have donr. push a partnwr kill if possible. really/ rereD UOS AND TEll me you cant see hider in that, everbody. it was ob vious.
-
No one knew UoS' flavor name before he flipped.
-
No one knew UoS' flavor name before he flipped.
i'm not talking about namr, i'm talking about the breadcrumbs he laid for us (towen, not you). pretend you'te vt and REREAD UOPS, HE A;LL but sceeams his role.
-
Right.
Say I'm scum, and say I knew UoS was hider. How would I have known it was Nkirbit he hid behind, and not me?
We're going in circles here.... we can have this argument later, or not cause it's not getting anywhere and I've made my point.
-
Right.
Say I'm scum, and say I knew UoS was hider. How would I have known it was Nkirbit he hid behind, and not me?
We're going in circles here.... we can have this argument later, or not cause it's not getting anywhere and I've made my point.
because. you. can. count. to. 13.
-
Right.
Say I'm scum, and say I knew UoS was hider. How would I have known it was Nkirbit he hid behind, and not me?
We're going in circles here.... we can have this argument later, or not cause it's not getting anywhere and I've made my point.
because. you. can. count. to. 13.
+1
-
Right.
Say I'm scum, and say I knew UoS was hider. How would I have known it was Nkirbit he hid behind, and not me?
We're going in circles here.... we can have this argument later, or not cause it's not getting anywhere and I've made my point.
because. you. can. count. to. 13.
But...so could a town person. Where exactly does this make me scummy?
-
Right.
Say I'm scum, and say I knew UoS was hider. How would I have known it was Nkirbit he hid behind, and not me?
We're going in circles here.... we can have this argument later, or not cause it's not getting anywhere and I've made my point.
because. you. can. count. to. 13.
But...so could a town person. Where exactly does this make me scummy?
Becausee only scu has incentive to figure this out prior to day start. you obviously figured it out. prior to day start. vote: TA in case the point was missed.
-
Sigh. It's time. I have been waffling on this today. I think it's for the best.
I'm your PR, folks.
Don't have a result, but Ashersky was find enough to turn this into a me-or-him situation. Welp, I know it's him.
-
No harm in revealing now, because if Ash and partner (probs Raerae) NK tonight, they've outed themselves as scum. They need to keep me alive and hope they can convince you all that I'm lying scum.
-
Crap.
-
NK me tonight**
I can claim results tonight, or tomorrow, or whatever town things is best. I'll listen to the input of those who I think are town on this. I don't have a scum result yet, unfortunately, but I am 99.999% sure that Ashersky is scum.
-
Vote: Ashersky
I would bet almost anything on Ashersky being scum. He made this into a me-or-him situation, when he didn't have that incentive as town. I believe in my case.
-
I am sure most of you will disagree with my decision to claim without a positive result, but I feel that my reveal as a PR will identify one scum, even if it's not in the tradition way. I see it going two ways:
1) Scum counterclaims. We either lynch scum, or lynch me then lynch scum. Either way, we get a scum -- obviously the first is better than the second, but second isn't awful. It will leave us in MYLO, still with a no-lynch in hand, and much stronger reads.
2) Scum doesn't counterclaim. We believe me. We lynch Ashersky. Great!
I am THAT sure on Ashersky being scum. I am willing to bet the game on it. He is not town, people.
Basically, my revealing will catch us Ashersky, whether it's before or after my lynch. There was no way I was going to get two positive results from investigating. Besides, they would be counterclaimed, and we'd have the same fight we're going to have today. I'd rather do it when we have mislynches to spare and 2-3 days left to play than at the end.
-
vote: no lynch
-
TA is lying, right? Someone counterclaim.
TA, I look forward to your ridiculous backtracking tomorrow when everyone else finds out I'm town and you don't die tonight.
-
vote: no lynch
Doesn't work. TA changed his vote.
You can't believe that crap claim, right? First claim is the lie. Counterclaim is the truth.
-
Vote: Ashersky
I would bet almost anything on Ashersky being scum. He made this into a me-or-him situation, when he didn't have that incentive as town. I believe in my case.
You owe this entire town a huge apology if you cause town to lose and you aren't lying scum, scum.
-
TA is lying, right? Someone counterclaim.
TA, I look forward to your ridiculous backtracking tomorrow when everyone else finds out I'm town and you don't die tonight.
Well, you, Eevee, and Jimmm have posted, with no counterclaim yet. Jimm and Eevee haven't posted explicitly that they're not counter-claiming, though.
It's interesting, because it's different than a normal claim situation. I'm not specifically pencilling anyone, so there doesn't NEED to be a counterclaim. But there still very well might be one. But counterclaiming would put scum out there, when they don't need to be out there. I really don't know what happens, and I'm interested to see who a counterclaim comes from, if anyone, since they'd just basically be outing themselves as scum to me!
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
-
Vote: Ashersky
I would bet almost anything on Ashersky being scum. He made this into a me-or-him situation, when he didn't have that incentive as town. I believe in my case.
You owe this entire town a huge apology if you cause town to lose and you aren't lying scum, scum.
I will hugely apologize if you are town and I cause us to lose this game. But I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
Lynch you. If not, lynch me, see you survive the night, lynch you tomorrow, hope for the best at Lylo.
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
You really want to lynch town's last PR with no counterclaim?????
Lynch you. If not, lynch me, see you survive the night, lynch you tomorrow, hope for the best at Lylo.
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
Lynch you. If not, lynch me, see you survive the night, lynch you tomorrow, hope for the best at Lylo.
You really want to lynch town's last PR with no counterclaim?????
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
While the possibility remains that we will no-lynch today, I will not reveal whether I am the psychologist or the detective.
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
Lynch you. If not, lynch me, see you survive the night, lynch you tomorrow, hope for the best at Lylo.
You really want to lynch town's last PR with no counterclaim?????
1) I do not believe you. I could see lio counterclaim.
2) I see you don't want to say who you targeted. Fishy.
3) I also suggested lynching me, if people believe you. A mislynch is better than no lynch, now.
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
While the possibility remains that we will no-lynch today, I will not reveal whether I am the psychologist or the detective.
If you truly think no lynch is best, you could hammer it.
I didn't ask which role, I asked who you targeted.
-
Also, no lynch is bad now. If TA is honest, he dies tonight. If he's lying, no reason to wait.
Lynch TA.
If no counter claim comes, what do you suggest we do?
Lynch you. If not, lynch me, see you survive the night, lynch you tomorrow, hope for the best at Lylo.
You really want to lynch town's last PR with no counterclaim?????
1) I do not believe you. I could see lio counterclaim.
2) I see you don't want to say who you targeted. Fishy.
3) I also suggested lynching me, if people believe you. A mislynch is better than no lynch, now.
1) Fair enough, I didn't expect you to state your agreement with my claim, obviously.
2) The problem with announcing my targets is that No-lynch is currently at L-1. I've announced that I have not yet received a positive result. If I announce my targets, and one of them is scum, scum will know exactly whether or not I'm a psychologist or a detective. While no-lynch remains a possibility, I will absolutely not reveal this information. If we agree that we lynch either you or I today, I will reveal this information, but not until then.
3) I agree on this point.
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
While the possibility remains that we will no-lynch today, I will not reveal whether I am the psychologist or the detective.
Also, stupid. If you aren't lying, you are dying tonight. Not worth the risk to scum. Better to share info, no?
-
You make a fair point, I guess, that targets could give away you role, were you not lying.
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
While the possibility remains that we will no-lynch today, I will not reveal whether I am the psychologist or the detective.
Also, stupid. If you aren't lying, you are dying tonight. Not worth the risk to scum. Better to share info, no?
If you are scum, and we no-lynch tonight and I die and flip PR, which I will, you will be the lynch the next day.
Scum know I am the PR. If you are scum, which I am sure that you are, you know that you killing me would mean your death the next day. You would have a greater shot of keeping me alive, and trying to out-argue me, to avoid the lynch on D4.
Basically, if I flip PR, it's your death. You don't want to die, so you want to keep my flip hidden, since you now KNOW I am the PR. I will not be nightkilled until after you have been lynched, then I'm the auto-NK the next day.
-
If anyone else but Ash counterclaims, I am more than happy to be the lynch today, providing that the remaining players promise to lynch Ashersky and the counterclaimer the next two days after my flip is revealed.
-
Who did you investigate N1 and N2?
While the possibility remains that we will no-lynch today, I will not reveal whether I am the psychologist or the detective.
Also, stupid. If you aren't lying, you are dying tonight. Not worth the risk to scum. Better to share info, no?
If you are scum, and we no-lynch tonight and I die and flip PR, which I will, you will be the lynch the next day.
Scum know I am the PR. If you are scum, which I am sure that you are, you know that you killing me would mean your death the next day. You would have a greater shot of keeping me alive, and trying to out-argue me, to avoid the lynch on D4.
Basically, if I flip PR, it's your death. You don't want to die, so you want to keep my flip hidden, since you now KNOW I am the PR. I will not be nightkilled until after you have been lynched, then I'm the auto-NK the next day.
If that's the case, why do I want to lynch you today?
Scum will trade 1 for 1 to get rid of an investigative PR. Why would I care if I'm lynched tomorrow if I got to kill you tonight? Ok trade.
You fake claimed to try to get the real PR to claim. It won't work, though. Not doing it.
-
Scenarios:
No Lynch D3:
TA is honest, NK'ed N3 and we get no info from what turns out to be a wasted PR
TA is lying, random townie is NK'ed, he pushes my lynch again tomorrow
TA is honest but scum risks it, random townie is NK'ed, he pushes my lynch again tomorrow
Ash Lynch D3:
TA is honest, NK'ed N3...
TA is lying, random townie is NK'ed, TA auto-lynch D4
TA is honest, scum risks it, random townie is NK'ed, TA auto-lynched D4
TA Lynch D3:
TA is honest, died a waste of a PR. Random townie is NK'ed, ash is auto-mislynched D4
TA is lying, town rejoices.
I think TA lynch works out the best no matter what, based on above.
-
Because you had no idea that I was the PR. You thought I was just a VT, and you had no idea what you were walking into.
Now, you're in a position where, in order to get people to continue to think I'm scummy, your partner would need to claim. Problem is, if your partner counterclaims, and I'm believed, bam, we've found the scum team. Therefore, I don't think your partner will claim.
Now, you have probably reasoned this out, as well. It's foolish for your partner to claim to cover your tracks. They won't do it. They need to stay hidden. So you're trying to now paint me as scummy, without a counterclaim even necessary.
If no counterclaim comes, I can't believe you would want to lynch me. If you WERE a VT, why wouldn't you believe my claim? If you WERE a VT, and no counterclaim came, you would believe that I'm the PR, right? Yet you are stating, without even waiting to see if a claim comes, that I am still scum, and that I should still be lynched. You are not a VT in this position. You are a scum.
-
Scenarios:
No Lynch D3:
TA is honest, NK'ed N3 and we get no info from what turns out to be a wasted PR
TA is lying, random townie is NK'ed, he pushes my lynch again tomorrow
TA is honest but scum risks it, random townie is NK'ed, he pushes my lynch again tomorrow
Ash Lynch D3:
TA is honest, NK'ed N3...
TA is lying, random townie is NK'ed, TA auto-lynch D4
TA is honest, scum risks it, random townie is NK'ed, TA auto-lynched D4
TA Lynch D3:
TA is honest, died a waste of a PR. Random townie is NK'ed, ash is auto-mislynched D4
TA is lying, town rejoices.
I think TA lynch works out the best no matter what, based on above.
Well, yes, but these all have a major, false, assumption: Ashersky is town. Which is an untrue assumption.
Of course a TA lynch will be the best result when you assume that AShersky is town!
-
Agreed, ash's analysis is super flawed, we don't know if he is town or not.
I'm in favor of no lynching with as little discussion as possible and no counter claims.
-
Agreed, ash's analysis is super flawed, we don't know if he is town or not.
I'm in favor of no lynching with as little discussion as possible and no counter claims.
Why? If you believe TA, he dies tonight. If he lives, do we lynch him tomorrow?
-
I will self vote before supporting a no lynch.
-
I will self vote before supporting a no lynch.
To be clear, the reason for this is based on my analysis. I know I am town, the rest of you don't, I get it. But I know that, knowing my own alignment, it is best for Town to lynch today, even if it is me.
If we lynch me:
You lose a member of town, but you gain a shit-ton of knowledge. You know I was not lying about anything. You know you can't trust a word that TA has typed all game. You know he played a gambit by attacking me since D1. You know who to lynch on D4.
If we no lynch:
We gain nothing but a dead townie who gives us no information, and we're right back to this point again on D4.
Remember, if I'm lying scum, I am gaining nothing from this. If I flip scum, none of this works, so it is a terrible gambit to make.
If TA is town, and if he is the PR, he's misplayed this terribly. Why did he claim? Because drunk raerae was coming at him? Really? No reason to out himself there. This reeks of my fakeclaim in Mean Girls -- the timing is so off, it has to be fake.
-
I don't want to give scum any extra information as to who to kill.
Two possible scenarios.
TA is town and scum knows he is the pr and would or wouldn't kill him, we don't know and wouldn't want to tell them if we'd believe a counterclaim tomorrow because that'd just tell them what to do.
TA is scum and there is a real pr somewhere. Scum has to shoot blindly today, and we'll have to make a decision tomorrow. If the real pr claims, scum can choose whether to shoot the pr or a random townie, so that's strictly worse than having them forced to shoot randomly.
If both claimants have results when claiming, we can make better decisions about who to lynch. Lets just deal all of this tomorrow.
-
There are still players who haven't posted that could counterclaim. I think I agree they should not.
We should lynch TA anyway. Absolute worst case, he's telling the truth, and yet has zero useful info and dies tonight. Best case, we lynch scum. Best way forward for sure.
-
Lynching a claimed pr (a possible IC if no one counterclaims) would be lol bad.
-
Lynching a claimed pr (a possible IC if no one counterclaims) would be lol bad.
Which is it, he should be counterclaimed if he's lying, or he shouldn't? Because No Lynch and waiting does not confirm TA's claim, or make him an IC. It makes him dead or scum.
-
If I were the real psychologist, I would not counterclaim today and instead agree that his lynch was the best course of action.
-
Vote Count 3.8
"What did yuma say?" asked Mr. Boddy.
"He only said, 'Tell them that yuma says "I know what you did last summer."' Any idea what that means?"
"No!" shouted everyone.
Neither did I. But yuma didn't really say that. That just sounded more dramatic. What yuma did say was that he was safe and that everything was proceeding to plan. He expected to be back in the next few hours, with the police!
No lynch: (4) liopoil, Jimmmmmm, mcmc, Eevee (L-1)
TA: (2) ashersky, raerae
ashersky: (1) TA
Not voting: (1) chairs
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
Okay, I am not going to counterclaim/not claim.
I am going to say two things with explanations to follow.
1) TA's actions make no sense.
2) No lynch is still our best option.
1A) I am going to pretend I am TA and he is the town PR. TA believes ash is scum with huge certainty which I understands, but as I said before and he did, even with 99% certainty no lynx is better. Chairs agrees, eevee agrees, even ash agreed(with no lynch being a okay idea). So if I am TA, the best thing to do in shut up, no lynch.
1B) TA should care about town winning, not him living. Honestly if I am TA I wait for us to no lynch, investigate raerae who is going to look really bad if ash flips scum(which TA is certain he will) and put town in the best position.
1C) Instead TA claims for ZERO REASON, and suspect both ash and raerae simply for them suspecting him...which a vt could do because they have no idea of your alignment either.
2A) If TA is the town PR, lynching or no lynching today still ends with the same chance of him dying at night. No lynching was NOT just to give our PR another chance no lynching today gives us better odds later on. We get the same amount of town directed lynches but have to chose for less people.
I agree with eevee, sorry if I talked too much, no lynch is the best option right now.
-
woah, just caught up. wish I had been online yesterday.
Vote: TwistedArcher
this is what we're doing today. Everyone sheep me! no way is he town.
-
no more needs to be said, I hope.
-
Meh, I'm not sure who to believe here. With that in mind, can't we just postpone the decision to tomorrow? Is there any reason not to?
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
-
Guys, why not wait until tomorrow?
-
TA is at L-1 now..
-
Guys, why not wait until tomorrow?
Why wait? You are tying yourself to TA even more.
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
-
woah, just caught up. wish I had been online yesterday.
Vote: TwistedArcher
this is what we're doing today. Everyone sheep me! no way is he town.
So you are claiming PR here?
I want to make this extra-super certain for when I flip PR.
-
You guys are actually lynching a claimed PR without a counterclaim.
If there's a counterclaim, I am fine being the lynch first. We have caught two scum (Ashersky + counterclaimer) that way.
The only way this absolutely positively backfires is if you lynch a PR without a counterclaim.
You guys are actually going to lynch a PR without a counterclaim!!!
You may not agree with my actions, but I did it, and I'm pretty sure it's the right move. The ONLY way it doesn't work is if you fools lynch me without a counterclaim.
-
I am the Psychologist
I investigated Jimmm N1, because I was getting super super suspicious of him towards the end of D1. He either is VT, or is scum who performed the NK on N1. I believe he is VT.
I investigated Mcmc N2, because I wanted to see if Ashersky's wagon was all town or town. He either is VT, or is scum who performed the NK or N1 or N2. So, I'm less certain on Mcmc than Jimmm, but still leaning town.
This is a hidden aspect of my Ashersky case, which I couldn't claim. I have reason to believe that EVERY SINGLE PERSON who voted Ashersky D1 was town, and then Nkirbit, a scum, came in and redirected the case. His wagon was almost entirely a town wagon.
To any VT who is voting me, unvote now, please. The best possible outcome for scum is if I'm PR, and if you lynch me with no counterclaim. That's awesome for scum. That's doing their work for them. I'm pretty sure that we win this game unless you lynch me without a counterclaim. Lynch me with a counterclaim, fine, whatever. At least you know who to lynch tomorrow. But lynching me with no counterclaim is terrible bad and I will be furious at all of you for lynching your last PR without a counterclaim.
-
I wouldn't have claimed if I was the detective. Being the psychologist, though, if everyone listens and lynches Ashersky, I am simply an IC at that point, since I have no further utility in catching scum.
-
Scum to town, in case you all are fools and lynch me:
AShersky (obv scum)
Liopoil ("Everyone sheep me" is an AWESOME way for scum to "pretend" to counterclaim and then be oh "oh, I wasn't counterclaiming, I just had a read")
Raerae
Mcmc
Eevee/Chairs/JImmm are all pretty much conf town to me.
-
Even if you lynch me, I don't think town's in terrible shape. You must lynch Ashersky, and you much lynch one of Raerae/Liopoil (I've seen scum points for both, honestly, I have no idea which of the two is the partner. I'd be shocked if it's anyone else, though)
-
Ah hell, you're the psych?
vote: Ashersky unless we have a counterclaim.
-
woah, just caught up. wish I had been online yesterday.
Vote: TwistedArcher
this is what we're doing today. Everyone sheep me! no way is he town.
This post only makes sense if Liopoil is counterclaiming PR. If he's not counterclaiming, it makes no sense. Tomorrow, after I've flipped PR, please please please interrogate Liopoil over this.
I hope you are unable to find 3 town members willing to lynch a PR without a counterclaim, because that's just terrible.
-
Ah hell, you're the psych?
vote: Ashersky unless we have a counterclaim.
What did you think I was claiming? :P
-
Ah hell, you're the psych?
vote: Ashersky unless we have a counterclaim.
What did you think I was claiming? :P
Detective.
-
Ah hell, you're the psych?
vote: Ashersky unless we have a counterclaim.
What did you think I was claiming? :P
Detective.
(To expound upon this, I thought it was obvious that the correct choice was tracker and detective).
-
Has noone read my post. No lynch is still the best option...
No at this point most likely ends in a vt death as everyone who could be the remaining pr will be left alive. If we lynch today scum or town out pr is probably going to die.
Also if we no lynch now we lose ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as we gain info, we gain and day, and we get to reduce the number of possible scum players without losing a town directed lynch.
vote: no lynch
-
Ah hell, you're the psych?
vote: Ashersky unless we have a counterclaim.
What did you think I was claiming? :P
Detective.
(To expound upon this, I thought it was obvious that the correct choice was tracker and detective).
I didn't get a choice, it was 50/50 decided for me pregame.
-
Has noone read my post. No lynch is still the best option...
No at this point most likely ends in a vt death as everyone who could be the remaining pr will be left alive. If we lynch today scum or town out pr is probably going to die.
Also if we no lynch now we lose ABSOLUTELY NOTHING as we gain info, we gain and day, and we get to reduce the number of possible scum players without losing a town directed lynch.
vote: no lynch
I'd rather lynch today. We could always have no-lynch as an option for another day.
-
Lynching TA without someone properly counterclaiming would be so horrendous I'd seriously get mad. Aren't there like two guys soft-counterclaiming him already? Liopoil for sure, ashersky maybe? TA is right, liopoil needs to commit to either counterclaiming or not. No reason to leave it like that, as scum would know if you are the PR anyways, only partially confirming it looking like you want to leave yourself some wiggle room.
I'm tying myself to TA because he is a claimed PR with either 0 or 2 counterclaims. Whatever the case, we dont freaking lynch the guy, what the hell!? Townies come to your senses, of you give the win away like this it'd be embarassing.
We already established we want to nolynch even if we are 95% sure someone is scum. What happened to that?
-
Absolutely no counterclaiming! The real pr if it isn't TA should stay safe for at least another night.
LETS NO LYNCH and give him that opportunity...
-
Absolutely no counterclaiming! The real pr if it isn't TA should stay safe for at least another night.
LETS NO LYNCH and give him that opportunity...
did you read liopoils post? if TA is scum, they already know its him. better to have his information out in the open.
i obviously did try to get us to nolynch immediately after ta's claim but some people forgot that thats what we want to do and now we are in this mess.
-
no more needs to be said, I hope.
-
no more needs to be said, I hope.
If you are claiming PR, you are leaving town confused but scum completely in the know. What's the point of that?
Either counterclaim or don't do it. Don't put in a soft claim that you're going to weasel yourself out of later.
-
hold up. so you are saying that if I am town, scum know I am claiming to be the last PR. but town don't know that's what I am claiming? scum know my alignment, yes. but you are saying that scum know I am not a VT. they know no such thing. if they did, then town would know that I am either scum or PR. that is not true.
No, I do not see any reason for me to roleclaim. scum and town read the same exact post. I support the TA lynch.
-
I see no reason to continue this discussion, all that can happen is for scum to get even more info on who the PR really is.
the timing of his claim is terrible. if he were town, then he would see that no lynch was quite likely to happen. no reason to claim there, even if he is unlikely to get a useful result.
-
hold up. so you are saying that if I am town, scum know I am claiming to be the last PR. but town don't know that's what I am claiming? scum know my alignment, yes. but you are saying that scum know I am not a VT. they know no such thing. if they did, then town would know that I am either scum or PR. that is not true.
No, I do not see any reason for me to roleclaim. scum and town read the same exact post. I support the TA lynch.
If you are VT, you have absolutely no reason to want to lynch a claimed PR without a counterclaim.
-
hold up. so you are saying that if I am town, scum know I am claiming to be the last PR. but town don't know that's what I am claiming? scum know my alignment, yes. but you are saying that scum know I am not a VT. they know no such thing. if they did, then town would know that I am either scum or PR. that is not true.
No, I do not see any reason for me to roleclaim. scum and town read the same exact post. I support the TA lynch.
If you are VT, you have absolutely no reason to want to lynch a claimed PR without a counterclaim.
really? no edge case here?
-
I see no reason to continue this discussion, all that can happen is for scum to get even more info on who the PR really is.
the timing of his claim is terrible. if he were town, then he would see that no lynch was quite likely to happen. no reason to claim there, even if he is unlikely to get a useful result.
My job as a PR is to catch scum. By whatever method possible. Ash making this into a me-or-him situation meant that, if I claimed as PR, there are two things that can happen:
1) Counterclaim -- we either lynch the counter-claiming scum, or lynch me THEN lynch the counterclaiming scum. Either way, we've found a scum.
2) No claim -- I am town -- we now know that Ashersky is almost certainly scum, and we lynch him.
Either way, if my read on AShersky is correct, and I'm 99.999% sure that it is, we have found a scum.
Even if you disagree with the timing of my claim, I feel that I have used my role effectively to catch a scum.
The ONLY way that my claim doesn't catch scum is if we lynch me without a counterclaim, which would be absolutely ridiculous.
A VT would not advocate lynching a PR without a counterclaim. That's just completely absolutely positively silly.
VTs do not want to lynch a claimed PR without a counterclaim. Not at this point of the game. That's just throwing the game away.
Town, I have found you your scum, you can either believe me now, or wait for a counterclaim, lynch me, and believe me tomorrow. I don't care, as long as at some point, you use my information and the work I've done to catch scum.
The ONLY way that doesn't happen is if you lynch a claimed PR without a claim.
I'm sure most of you really disagree with my claim, but I know I've been effective in finding scum here, and that you will see it from my point of view after I die, or hopefully before I die. But I've caught scum here, and it's up to town to use my information to lynch the correct players.
-
hold up. so you are saying that if I am town, scum know I am claiming to be the last PR. but town don't know that's what I am claiming? scum know my alignment, yes. but you are saying that scum know I am not a VT. they know no such thing. if they did, then town would know that I am either scum or PR. that is not true.
No, I do not see any reason for me to roleclaim. scum and town read the same exact post. I support the TA lynch.
If you are VT, you have absolutely no reason to want to lynch a claimed PR without a counterclaim.
really? no edge case here?
Unless you are 100% sure that I'm scum. But a VT cannot be 100% sure that a claimed PR is scum without a counterclaim!
I can't possibly see why you want to lynch me without a counterclaim.
You realize that if you're wrong, and VT, you have made it extremely hard for town to win?
By far the worst case scenario, not making any assumptions after my alignment or Ash's alignment, is that I'm town, I am PR, and I get lynched without a counterclaim. This is by far by far by far the worst case scenario, and the only scenario that doesn't leave us in good position, I think. Do you disagree with this? Yet you are willing to risk that!
-
oh, if you are indeed a town PR and we lynch you without counterclaim, that is terrible indeed. it would be quite difficult for town to come back from that. but if we lynch scum!TA without counterclaim, it puts town in great shape. and this is a risk we need to take.
this isn't a situation where the townPR should counterclaim, I don't think. that's why the lack of a counterclaim does not clear you at all.
-
There is no reason not to no-lynch today. If TA is telling the truth then either scum will kill him and save us from mislynching him, or they will leave him alive and give him another chance to investigate. If he's lying, then either scum will kill the real PR, confirming that TA is scum, or they will give the real PR another chance to investigate. Either way, either we definitely don't mislynch TA, or the PR gets another result.
If we mislynch today, especially TA, then we suck.
-
You think the likelihood of me being scum is so high that it's worth lynching a claimed PR with no counterclaim?
Man, I am doing something really wrong. But I shouldn't be surprised. This happens every single damn game. Seriously, last three games I've been town (counting this one), I have found scum D2 (D3 here, but basically D2) and been lynched instead of my preferred target.
I have done all I can honestly, I hope town can get it into their heads to actually lynch scum and not your claimed PR who hasn't been counterclaimed. Going to the beach for the weekend!
-
if we no-lynch today, do we end up at mylo tomorrow?
are we at mylo if we lynch today?
-
Also...
Official vote count please
-
if we no-lynch today, do we end up at mylo tomorrow?
are we at mylo if we lynch today?
3v2 is lylo, 4v2 is mylo. If we no-lynch today we'll be 5v2, if we mislynch we'll be 4v2.
-
So basically we still get 2 mislynches, no matter what.
-
So basically we still get 2 mislynches, no matter what.
Well, we get 1 mislynch. The second one will end the game with a scum win.
-
So basically we still get 2 mislynches, no matter what.
Well, we get 1 mislynch. The second one will end the game with a scum win.
Right, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
I guess I understand the benefit to the no-lynch typically, but wouldn't scum just NK one of the people that's not relevant to this argument?
-
So basically we still get 2 mislynches, no matter what.
Well, we get 1 mislynch. The second one will end the game with a scum win.
Right, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
I guess I understand the benefit to the no-lynch typically, but wouldn't scum just NK one of the people that's not relevant to this argument?
Yes. But 1) that means we will never mislynch said person, and 2) it gives our PR another chance to get a result.
-
So basically we still get 2 mislynches, no matter what.
Well, we get 1 mislynch. The second one will end the game with a scum win.
Right, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.
I guess I understand the benefit to the no-lynch typically, but wouldn't scum just NK one of the people that's not relevant to this argument?
Yes. But 1) that means we will never mislynch said person, and 2) it gives our PR another chance to get a result.
Fair enough. I guess at this point there's no pain in no-lynching today.
vote: no-lynch. I'm going to head to the Winston, have a few pints, and let this all blow over.
-
hmmm. no lynch is okay with me, actually. I'm willing to go back to that, but I'll wait for a vote count.
-
Here's a reason to not no-lynch: forcing lio to say claim/ not claim now, rather than tomorrow, doesn't give him the chance to discuss and strategize with ash if they're the scum team. If we make him do it today, he doesn't get a chance to coordinate with his partner and make a plan of attack.
Giving scum a night to discuss whether or not counter claiming is correct for them is awesome for them.
We want lio, if he's scum, to be forced to make this decision himself. Not after consulting with his partner.
-
TA is lying, right? Someone counterclaim.
TA, I look forward to your ridiculous backtracking tomorrow when everyone else finds out I'm town and you don't die tonight.
Btw, here's ash's advice to his partner to counterclaim.
He has a vested interest in me being proven incorrect. Rather than taking a step back and evaluating my claim, he immediately goes on the attack.
-
If I'm the pr, I just stated why making lio say if hes claiming or not today and not tomorrow is for the best.
Now from everyone's point of view, if lio is the pr and I'm scum, there's no harm in making him do it now. If he's really the pr, we will be in the exact same position minus a vt tomorrow, or, he will be the nk tonight, which for all intents and purposes is the same as his claiming, and maybe even better, since I will be auto lynched tomorrow.
The only effect of no lynching today, effectively, is to give lio a chance to strategize with his partner if he's scum. We will still be able to no lynch at a future date if we don't use it today.
-
Vote Count 3.9
Everyone gasped again. The Singing Telegram Girl and Mr. Green almost screamed but both thought better of it after Col. Mustard glared at them.
"Well thanks for the phone. It is almost 9 o'clock so I had better be going. Are you sure you all don't want to be baptized?" asked the missionary.
"Why would we want to do that?" asked The Mechanic.
"Because of the flames! it-it- the f - it -flam - flames. Flames, on the side of your face, breathing-breathl- heaving breaths. Heaving breaths... Heathing..."
And with that the guests escorted the missionary to the Hall and the front door.
"Wait, where did it go!" shouted Mr. Green. "There was something on the floor here earlier. But now it was gone, I think it was a piece of evidence."
"Evidence of what?" asked the missionary.
"Go away!" said Mr. Boddy pushing him out the door.
No lynch: (4) Jimmmmmm, mcmc, Eevee, chairs (L-1)
TA: (3) ashersky, raerae, liopoil (L-2)
ashersky: (1) TA
Not voting: (0)
With 8 alive it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline for Day3 is August 6 at 2 pm forum time.
-
If I'm the pr, I just stated why making lio say if hes claiming or not today and not tomorrow is for the best.
Now from everyone's point of view, if lio is the pr and I'm scum, there's no harm in making him do it now. If he's really the pr, we will be in the exact same position minus a vt tomorrow, or, he will be the nk tonight, which for all intents and purposes is the same as his claiming, and maybe even better, since I will be auto lynched tomorrow.
The only effect of no lynching today, effectively, is to give lio a chance to strategize with his partner if he's scum. We will still be able to no lynch at a future date if we don't use it today.
If you're really the PR, why don't you want another chance to investigate someone?
-
I'm psychologist, scum know I'm psychologist. I'm not getting a positive result for the rest of the game unfortunately
-
I'm psychologist, scum know I'm psychologist. I'm not getting a positive result for the rest of the game unfortunately
*Checks what Psychologist does*
Oh I see. Well that sucks. Why would you tell us that?
-
I'm psychologist, scum know I'm psychologist. I'm not getting a positive result for the rest of the game unfortunately
*Checks what Psychologist does*
Oh I see. Well that sucks. Why would you tell us that?
I didn't want to claim p/d then town rushed me to L-1. Wasn't getting lynched without at least semi clearing you and mcmc.
-
TA's certainly about ash is not rational and its hurting his credibility.
I completely disagree with liopoil and honestly think he should claim at this point, before we nolynch.
-
How can you make these stupid arguments, TA?
You are stating with absolute certainty that I'm scum, yet you have zero PR-based proof. You speak like a cop who caught scum, but you have nothing.
You lied about your role, you continue to try and force a mislynch, and you look worse and worse as the day continues.
-
you want me, a random player, to claim?? that's odd. I assume it's based off me suddenly wanting to lynch TA, but still...
-
There's 1 pr, 2 scum, 5 VTs alive, right?
Scum is shooting for 1/5 given chairs claimed. 20% is tough. Fake claim to out the PR makes sense here.
-
There's 1 pr, 2 scum, 5 VTs alive, right?
Scum is shooting for 1/5 given chairs claimed. 20% is tough. Fake claim to out the PR makes sense here.
TA makes a good point, though. IF you and lio are a scumteam, it's to your benefit to hold off on a counterclaim until tomorrow.
IF TA is scum, then we still have a psych or detective out there, and we could burn him for the PR, but we could potentially get a result tonight depending on if they're psychologist or detective.
Meh. I think no-lynch, either way, still makes sense. If TA flips tomorrow due to a counter-claim and it's a mislynch, then at the very least ash and probably lio are scum.
-
If anyone counterclaims TA, I'll believe them. Given that, a counterclaim just narrows down scum's targets, right?
I've seen at least one person up to now that I felt could be hinting at the role, before and after TA's fake claim. That was enough for me to consider him countered.
-
you want me, a random player, to claim?? that's odd. I assume it's based off me suddenly wanting to lynch TA, but still...
Lol, a random player who saw someone claim cop and reacted with "lets lynch him asap. dont ask any questions". if you want to claim vt later, i will hold you accountabe for that and damn well ask these questions.
-
I'm believing TA unreservedly until we see an actual claim or flip which contradicts him. Now someone just hammer the no-lynch so we can get to tomorrow and get on with the scumhunting.
-
If anyone counterclaims TA, I'll believe them. Given that, a counterclaim just narrows down scum's targets, right?
I've seen at least one person up to now that I felt could be hinting at the role, before and after TA's fake claim. That was enough for me to consider him countered.
If you are town, coaching scum how to deal with counterclaims (if TA is town) is terribad.
we determine we want to nolynch even if we are 95% someone is scum. TA makes an ill-timed claim,0 that makes him our strongest role and an IC if he isnt counterclaimed (we know this role is in the game). thats what happened, could you please get back to your senses and stop voting TA. he can still be lynched tomorrow if he isnt the real cop.
-
Eevee's making a lot of sense.
-
You are all free to no lynch without me. You don't need my vote for that.
As previously stated, I prefer even my own lynch to no lynch. At least then you can all move on to finally killing scum!TA.
-
you want me, a random player, to claim?? that's odd. I assume it's based off me suddenly wanting to lynch TA, but still...
Lol, a random player who saw someone claim cop and reacted with "lets lynch him asap. dont ask any questions". if you want to claim vt later, i will hold you accountabe for that and damn well ask these questions.
okey-dokey!
-
You are all free to no lynch without me.
Thanks, I appreciate your permission.
-
You are all free to no lynch without me.
Thanks, I appreciate your permission.
Not permission, just pointing out the obvious.
If no lynch is so right, why keep arguing the matter? Why feel the need to convince me?
-
You are all free to no lynch without me.
Thanks, I appreciate your permission.
Not permission, just pointing out the obvious.
If no lynch is so right, why keep arguing the matter? Why feel the need to convince me?
Not necessarily you, but no-lynch is L-1 so somebody that isn't voting for it has to.
-
You are all free to no lynch without me.
Thanks, I appreciate your permission.
Not permission, just pointing out the obvious.
If no lynch is so right, why keep arguing the matter? Why feel the need to convince me?
I don't think anyone's trying to convince you in particular. We just need the majority, which we don't have yet, so clearly more convincing is necessary.
-
Do none of you see?
TA, your own savior, isn't even voting no lynch.
Choose, people. Vote for me, get my confirmed town flip, kill TA tomorrow. Or help me Lynch All Liars.
But if you do kill me, DO NOT LET TA TALK HIS WAY OUT OF IT TOMORROW.
-
Me, raerae, and lio are on TA. We are all pretty convinced, reading the posts.
TA remains.
-
I'm not calling TA my savior. You flipping town wouldnt really confirm TA to be scum at all - unless you flipped the role he claimed.
There is no reason not to postpone the decision of who to believe until tomorrow is all I'm saying. Luckily at least some agree with me, I'm pretty hopeful that TA will just end it when he logs in again. Weekend would be a good time to get some right time rest.
-
I'm not calling TA my savior. You flipping town wouldnt really confirm TA to be scum at all - unless you flipped the role he claimed.
There is no reason not to postpone the decision of who to believe until tomorrow is all I'm saying. Luckily at least some agree with me, I'm pretty hopeful that TA will just end it when he logs in again. Weekend would be a good time to get some right time rest.
If me being town doesn't clear me, you are clearly TA's partner. Ridiculous.
-
I'm not calling TA my savior. You flipping town wouldnt really confirm TA to be scum at all - unless you flipped the role he claimed.
There is no reason not to postpone the decision of who to believe until tomorrow is all I'm saying. Luckily at least some agree with me, I'm pretty hopeful that TA will just end it when he logs in again. Weekend would be a good time to get some right time rest.
If me being town doesn't clear me, you are clearly TA's partner. Ridiculous.
Hum?
-
I'm not calling TA my savior. You flipping town wouldnt really confirm TA to be scum at all - unless you flipped the role he claimed.
There is no reason not to postpone the decision of who to believe until tomorrow is all I'm saying. Luckily at least some agree with me, I'm pretty hopeful that TA will just end it when he logs in again. Weekend would be a good time to get some right time rest.
If me being town doesn't clear me, you are clearly TA's partner. Ridiculous.
Hum?
You just said even my town flip won't change your mind about TA the "IC." I find that sort of stance difficult to digest.
-
Either I'm lying scum or honest town. Believe one or the other while I'm alive. After I'm dead? You'll know!
When you learn I am honest town, you will KNOW TA is lying scum.
-
I think you are misunderstanding where I'm standing. I could very easily see myself voting for TA tomorrow. You flipping town wouldnt be an event that would automatically trigger that, though.
How would I know TA is scum if you flipped town? Being honest doesnt make you right.
-
I think you are misunderstanding where I'm standing. I could very easily see myself voting for TA tomorrow. You flipping town wouldnt be an event that would automatically trigger that, though.
How would I know TA is scum if you flipped town? Being honest doesnt make you right.
You are right that me not lying doesn't make me right.
But the whole series of events tells everyone that there is no way this is town v town, especially now with the fake claim.
One of us is lying scum. It isn't me. And I think you are realizing that.
-
I think you are misunderstanding where I'm standing. I could very easily see myself voting for TA tomorrow. You flipping town wouldnt be an event that would automatically trigger that, though.
How would I know TA is scum if you flipped town? Being honest doesnt make you right.
You are right that me not lying doesn't make me right.
But the whole series of events tells everyone that there is no way this is town v town, especially now with the fake claim.
One of us is lying scum. It isn't me. And I think you are realizing that.
Not everyone, I've been entertaining the idea of town on town for a while now. You would know if you actually read what other people post and werent so set on your beliefs about TA. Guess what is going to help me decide if you two are town on town, scum ash on town TA or scum TA on town ash? Nolynching and a massclaim tomorrow.
-
Eevee's making a lot of sense.
-
This is terrible.
vote: no lynch
-
I want hammer credit on my stats, Yuma. That makes me all-time leading Hammerer.
Please all note, TA did not support no lynch either.
-
Hooray!
-
Please all note, TA did not support no lynch either.
Why are we noting that?
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
-
Please all note, TA did not support no lynch either.
Why are we noting that?
So he doesn't get undeserved credit.
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
If they do, what did we really lose? Nothing. Depending on yuma's ruling as to who has to "move first", we'll just continue making the best decision possible with the information we have.
I think they'll kill though, and we can massclaim and solve this puppy with more information tomorrow.
See all of you fine fellows in the morning, and sleep well!
-
Please all note, TA did not support no lynch either.
Why are we noting that?
So he doesn't get undeserved credit.
So it is good to nolynch now?
-
Please all note, TA did not support no lynch either.
Why are we noting that?
So he doesn't get undeserved credit.
So it is good to nolynch now?
Some of you think so.
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
If they do, what did we really lose? Nothing. Depending on yuma's ruling as to who has to "move first", we'll just continue making the best decision possible with the information we have.
I think they'll kill though, and we can massclaim and solve this puppy with more information tomorrow.
See all of you fine fellows in the morning, and sleep well!
Why couldn't we just mass claim today?
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
If they do, what did we really lose? Nothing. Depending on yuma's ruling as to who has to "move first", we'll just continue making the best decision possible with the information we have.
I think they'll kill though, and we can massclaim and solve this puppy with more information tomorrow.
See all of you fine fellows in the morning, and sleep well!
Why couldn't we just mass claim today?
Because removing one variable helps us to make a better decision without reducing the amount of mislynches (1) we can afford.
-
Final Day3 Vote Count
"I know it was here," said Mr. Green. "It was a small black tube. I can't think of what they are called. My sister had a bunch on your dresser at home!"
"I remember one of the lad...." The Mechanic began to say. But suddenly the house went dark and a gun shot rang out.
It was followed by another shot and then another. No one could see anything. No one knew if anyone was dead or not. It was just dark.
No lynch: (5) Jimmmmmm, mcmc, Eevee, chairs, ashersky
TA: (3) ashersky, raerae, liopoil (L-2)
ashersky: (1) TA
Not voting: (0)
You are now in twilight. Mafia may post in their quicktopic. I will lock the thread before I go to work tomorrow. Reminder to send me PMs acknowledging the start of night (I will accept them now during twilight as well).
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
If they do, what did we really lose? Nothing. Depending on yuma's ruling as to who has to "move first", we'll just continue making the best decision possible with the information we have.
I think they'll kill though, and we can massclaim and solve this puppy with more information tomorrow.
See all of you fine fellows in the morning, and sleep well!
Maybe we'll just happily ever after.
-
Tomorrow we do this all over again. I hope scum no kill to fuck with us.
If they do, what did we really lose? Nothing. Depending on yuma's ruling as to who has to "move first", we'll just continue making the best decision possible with the information we have.
I think they'll kill though, and we can massclaim and solve this puppy with more information tomorrow.
See all of you fine fellows in the morning, and sleep well!
Why couldn't we just mass claim today?
Because removing one variable helps us to make a better decision without reducing the amount of mislynches (1) we can afford.
Thank you eevee for pushing the idea. it's annoying to point out the logic that no lynch is the absolute 100% best option over and over again and still have people argue about it.
Not a single thing can happen that will negatively effect us this night.
Also both ash and TA thinking they obviously have to be of different alignment is just plain obnoxious. Like eevee said a town flip from either of them does not incriminate the other nor does a scum flip clear the other.
-
Eevee mcmc's making a lot of sense.
-
Remember, mafia is talking in the QT. that means real time analysis of things we say in twilight. Best for town to stop posting.
-
Twilight is Over
A few moments later the lights came back on. There was blood on the ground. There were many bodies on the ground. But that is because most of the guests were lying on the floor trying to not get shot.
"What happened?" asked The Singing Telegram Girl. "Someone was shouting at us."
"I don't know if they were shooting at us," answered Col. Mustard. "It sounded like the shots were coming from the Conservatory."
"Where is The Mechanic?" someone asked.
Everyone looked around. Where did he go?
"Well I guess it is time to split up again," said The Cook. Half of us go investigate the shots, the rest of us try and find The Mechanic.
The Singing Telegram Girl, Yvetee the Maid, Col. Mustard and Mr. Green decided to go into the Conservatory. The Cook, Mr. Boddy and Mrs. White went to look for The Mechanic.
Mafia may continue to post in their quicktopic. Reminder to send me PMs acknowledging the start of night. Day4 will start Monday morning at ~ 8:00 am forum time. Get night actions to me by ~7:00 am forum time.
Hopefully while it is night I will be able to catch up on all the flavor and start posting it as it comes.
This thread is now Locked
-
For those of you following along with the flavor I have updated more posts... not all of them are updated but more. I will try to finish up the rest of them so I am posting fresh flavor asap.
Thread still locked until morning.
-
Day4 Start
It didn't take long for them to find his body. Mrs. White just followed the trail of blood from the Hall to the Kitchen. There lying on the ground was the body of The Mechanic.
His body smelled of alcohol. Turns out he had been sneaking off to get drinks almost the entire night. But now he was dead, a bullet hole in his body.
"Dead," she said. "And dead drunk."
Eevee, The Mechanic Vanilla Townie, has been killed during the night.
Vote Count 4.1
Not Voting: (7) chairs, liopoil, ashersky, twistedarcher, raerae, Jimmmm, mcmcsalot
Day4 will end on August 15 at 9 am forum time.
Day4 Starts Now! Thread Unlocked.
-
Any counterclaims? As I said, I'm believing TA until a flip or counterclaim contradicts him.
-
I see Eevee was town. That's good news.
vote: TA -- claimed and survived? Lied. Time for the counterclaim, and results.
-
Any counterclaims? As I said, I'm believing TA until a flip or counterclaim contradicts him.
Why do you believe him? Scum decided NOT to kill him? Risky, no? Or are you assuming scum's immune?
-
Any counterclaims? As I said, I'm believing TA until a flip or counterclaim contradicts him.
Why do you believe him? Scum decided NOT to kill him? Risky, no? Or are you assuming scum's immune?
I see no point in assuming that there's someone in the background deciding to keep quiet. If he is telling the truth, then it would have been a tough decision whether or not to keep him alive. I'm not supporting the lynch of a claimed PR in an open game without a counterclaim. If someone claims, I will very happily consider it.
-
Yup, I'm your last PR, folks. will give my results and stuff before we lynch TA. spoiler: they're somewhat useful! Vote: TwistedArcher.
-
I'm the detective, btw. I don't have a guilty result though.
-
Yay, I don't think this is a liopoil ash scum team setting up a fake claim. TA's claim made no sense as town and I believe the counter claim to near 100%
With 7 it takes 4 to lynch, I will vote but lets wait to here from chairs and raerae at least.
-
Definitely should have kept quiet yesterday. I assume scum left me alive because they thought they might be able to get me lynched when I counterclaim today. That was probably a mistake, because I could've caught the last scum, which is an instant town victory! it's possible that TA did all the kills though... but they don't know that I was detective, not psychologist. anyway, I got all caught up in "hey! you're not the PR, I AM!!"
-
Yup, I'm your last PR, folks. will give my results and stuff before we lynch TA. spoiler: they're somewhat useful! Vote: TwistedArcher.
Ah there we go. So we have one scum in TA/lio and the other in chairs/ash/raerae/Jimmmmm/mcmcsalot.
Here's a thought: what if we left TA/lio alive for now and went after the partner? We'll have to pick the 1/5, but that's the same as if we correctly lynch TA or lio and scum kill the other, but leaving the claimed PRs alive means that scum won't want to kill the actual PR.
-
There is a non-zero but close-to-zero chance of a TA-lio scumteam, from a neutral perspective, that is. I'd prefer we just lynch TA now.
-
There is a non-zero but close-to-zero chance of a TA-lio scumteam, from a neutral perspective, that is. I'd prefer we just lynch TA now.
If that's the case then the real PR can just claim now and guarantee a Town win.
-
Oh, right. :P
-
Ok. Cool, cool, cool.
Well, Lio's scum. You all are against me, scum lynched my biggest supporter, so yeah. I am not going to out argue Lio today.
Vote: TA let's get this over with. Lynch Lio after I flip, lynch Ash the next day, town wins.
I will be furious if you guys do you not lynch Lio and Ash the next two days.
-
You all think I played this PR terribly, but the fact is, I found two scum in Lio/Ash.
-
You all think I played this PR terribly, but the fact is, I found two scum in Lio/Ash.
Do you really think it's likely that if lio and ash were the only two remaining scum, they would act as much like a team as they have been?
-
Yup, I'm your last PR, folks. will give my results and stuff before we lynch TA. spoiler: they're somewhat useful! Vote: TwistedArcher.
Ah there we go. So we have one scum in TA/lio and the other in chairs/ash/raerae/Jimmmmm/mcmcsalot.
Here's a thought: what if we left TA/lio alive for now and went after the partner? We'll have to pick the 1/5, but that's the same as if we correctly lynch TA or lio and scum kill the other, but leaving the claimed PRs alive means that scum won't want to kill the actual PR.
I see what your saying, and in theory I would agree. However
TA's claim was terrible. He not only did it at a time that made no sense. He claimed psychologist, and he said sorry mobile quoting is hard "if everyone listens and lynches ashersky, I am simply an IC at that point since I have no further utility in catching scum" he had only investigated me and Jimm at the time. So there is no way TA even knew ash was scum, or knew that all the mafia members had killed someone. This further makes his claim make no sense.
Add the fact that liopoil said he had some good info and doesn't want to share it till twilight(I like that thinking) I want us to lynch TA who is most likely scum, and then get the last info from our real PR before he gets night killed.
Lastly just the way the detective works, if we lynch TA and he is scum, the last scum has to make a nk. If we lynch outside there is still a chance out pr doesn't get concrete results.
Ill be back at lunch time if not before.
-
You all think I played this PR terribly, but the fact is, I found two scum in Lio/Ash.
Do you really think it's likely that if lio and ash were the only two remaining scum, they would act as much like a team as they have been?
Well, I know Lio is scum, and I am 99% sure that Ashersky is scum. If Ash isn't scum, I don't think it's Chairs, I don't think it's Mcmc, I don't think it's you. Raerae would be my guess, then.
I don't know, you all will have to decide in LYLO, but I'm pretty sure Ash/Lio is the team, and they just backed themselves into a terrible corner.
Do you believe me or Lio, Jimm?
-
For the last time, Mcmc, just because I played the role differently than you would have, does not make me scum. You all need to get that through your head.
I was never going to find us more than one scum. I think I've found us two, but I've definitely found us at least one (Liopoil). How did I play the role so terribly?
-
I'm not sure who to believe at this point. I think claiming Psychologist when you did was a terrible blunder if you're telling the truth.
I'd love to hear lio's results.
-
I'm not sure who to believe at this point. I think claiming Psychologist when you did was a terrible blunder if you're telling the truth.
I'd love to hear lio's results.
I mean, I was at L-1, because people didn't believe my generic "PR" claim. What would you have me do?
-
I'm not sure who to believe at this point. I think claiming Psychologist when you did was a terrible blunder if you're telling the truth.
I'd love to hear lio's results.
I mean, I was at L-1, because people didn't believe my generic "PR" claim. What would you have me do?
Okay, I didn't realise that. If you're legit, the blunder is shared by those willing to lynch you.
-
Lio - Ashersky scum team makes too much sense.
I was arguing against Ashersky on D2, and Liopoil came in on the side of Ashersky, although not too firmly, just as you'd expect a scumbuddy to do. D1, Liopoil supported Ashersky, just as Nkirbit did, when he was at L-2 from self-voting.
Lio claimed today after getting the chance to discuss it with his partner. I wanted to do this yesterday, so he wouldn't have the chance to get advice from his partner, but we didn't do that.
Vote: Liopoil at least I'll make four of you agree to lynch your PR before it happens
-
Oh, and Ashersky's argument that since I'm alive means I'm scum is just plain silly.
Of course I'm still alive! There was no way I was dying last night. I'm either scum who couldn't die, or claimed PR who has the entire town against me, and is going to get lynched tomorrow. Especially after my biggest supporter, Eevee, who always reads me really well, gets NK'd. There was no way Lio was expecting to lose this argument today.
I can't believe that you all think my claim was scummier than Lio's...he waited an entire day to get advice in his scum QT last night!
-
TA you had 2 votes on you when you claimed pr. That was what got you to L-1, the fact that your awkward pr claim when NO-LYNCH was at L-1...in fact we were just talking and waiting the day out to no lynch and you claimed pr...for no reason...
-
Except that I'm sure that Ash was scum, and now I'm sure that Lio is scum. I found scum for you guys. The more and more Ashersky made or me-or-him, the more and more he backed himself into a corner where I could prove he's scum once you all see my flip.
If I had waited D3, and come out D4 with a claim, you wouldn't have believed me then, either! It would have been opportunistic, and I would have planned it out with my partner, blah blah, blah blah. There was no "right way" to make that claim to have it be believable.
It's not what you would have done, but I think it makes sense from a town perspective. I had Ashersky backed into a corner, where we were both saying it was me-or-him, and then I came out with proof that said, oh wait, it can't be me, it has to be him, barring a counterclaim. I got my scum counterclaim, and now you're all going to lynch Lio tomorrow, and then hopefully you will all believe me and lynch Ashersky on D6.
When the scumteam turns out to be Nkirbit/Ashersky/Liopoil, and we found them basically because of my claim, I hope you all will stop telling me how stupid and idiotic my claim was, because it basically caught two scum.
-
I'm curious to see who scum thinks my "partner" is now that my previous "partner", Eevee, has been killed.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
Which I am.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
If he's wrong about the scumteam, I'm really not sure where else to look.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
If he's wrong about the scumteam, I'm really not sure where else to look.
If I'm town, Lio is 100% scum. I think Lio's partner is Ashersky, but that's not 100%, only 99%. I don't think it's Jimmm, Mcmc, or Chairs, that leaves Raerae, I guess. But I'm pretty sure Jimmm, Mcmc, Chairs, Raerae are all VTs.
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
If he's wrong about the scumteam, I'm really not sure where else to look.
Your last two posts actually have me suspecting that it's you and lio.
-
Chairs, I agree that lynching me even if I'm town isn't a terrible move. Do you think I'm town or scum, though? It's good to have this stuff on record!
-
We should lynch TA, even if he flips town, because it gives us the most information out of this situation.
vote: twistedarcher.
Only if he's right about ash.
If he's wrong about the scumteam, I'm really not sure where else to look.
Your last two posts actually have me suspecting that it's you and lio.
So you think Nkirbit bussed Chairs that hard D1 instead of voting Volt or someone else? Meh, I really, really doubt it.
-
I would bet the game on Ashersky being scum. I guess I already did, though.
-
Oh, I guess just for the record, I investigated Lio last night and received the result "Not capable of killing", not that it's relevant or has any meaning.
-
Once raerae gets a chance to weigh in, I'll self-hammer, if someone hasn't done it before then. Not winning you folks over.
-
TA here is the problem for you to be town, scum has to be idiotic. They know we have one more mislynch. When you claimed town PR if you are town PR, all scum has to do is nk you and them we lync ash(assuming your right) and then we are left looking for one scum. Not a terrible spot but not amazing.
Instead you want us to believe you are town but scum decided not to kill you, and to counter claim you, and and throw in the game...
I think it's a million times more likely you are scum, you got nervous you wouldn't be able to out talk ashersky, and you claimed in an attempt to draw out a counterclaim so you could take down the town pr.
-
Who do you think my partner is, Mcmc?
-
Btw, you just summarized what Ashersky's defense on D6 is going to be.
-
Jimm, chairs, or raerae.
-
Fair enough, I guess.
Just lynch Ashersky. I'll be mad if he's scum and doesn't get lynched.
-
Chairs, I agree that lynching me even if I'm town isn't a terrible move. Do you think I'm town or scum, though? It's good to have this stuff on record!
I think that Chairs should answer this before my flip.
-
Jimm, chairs, or raerae.
Oh yea let me add ash, I said it before you claimed that both of you bieng scum was more likely than just you being scum.
-
Hopefully your flip in conjunction with whatever info liopoil should have will clear up the mess with ashersky.
-
So, anyone, basically :P
If I flip town, are you going to want to lynch Ashersky?
-
Btw, I hope you can see the similarities between yesterday's D3, when I built a case on scum and was argued down and lynched, and between D2 of Pirates, when I built a case on scum and was argued down and lynched (you were the major scum contributor of my lynch there).
Do you see the similarities? It's me generating scum reads for making cases, which is absurd in itself. And you all wonder why people lurk and post about theory, when actually making cases gets people lynched.
-
If you flip town liopoil gets lynched and then yes I think ash needs to answer for what I feel was crazy scummy behavior making himself the spotlight all game, and crushing other scum hunting.
If you flip scum it is going to be very hard to decide if ash is also scum or not.
-
Well, you won't have to worry about that second possibility!
I'm sure Raerae will hammer me, she's been anti-me all game, and I'm sure she'd like her first hammer after Ash took one from her earlier.
-
Btw, I hope you can see the similarities between yesterday's D3, when I built a case on scum and was argued down and lynched, and between D2 of Pirates, when I built a case on scum and was argued down and lynched (you were the major scum contributor of my lynch there).
Do you see the similarities? It's me generating scum reads for making cases, which is absurd in itself. And you all wonder why people lurk and post about theory, when actually making cases gets people lynched.
In the event you are town I want you to understand that it was not your case that got you lynched at all. You keep forgetting you had people on your side, it was ash and raerae against you, me, eevee, and I can't remember chairs and Jimm's position.
We were all just waiting the day out, as I even said that as soon as this day started I would vote ash, then, you claimed pr, then you lost me. Because like I said before I don't think liopoil is dumb enough to counterclaim you and throw the game. Hence why I think your scum.
-
I waited until I had Ashersky fully backed into the me-or-him corner. I needed to wait long enough so that he couldn't try to pass it off as town-on-town.
-
I waited until I had Ashersky fully backed into the me-or-him corner. I needed to wait long enough so that he couldn't try to pass it off as town-on-town.
So at what point does an argument between two people who have no evidence of the other persons alignment no longer have any possibility of being town on town?
-
He made it into a him-or-me argument.
But maybe we're just both really headstrong townies! ;)
-
Chairs, I agree that lynching me even if I'm town isn't a terrible move. Do you think I'm town or scum, though? It's good to have this stuff on record!
I think you're 80%+ likely to be town.
(Genericizing to not use "you" below):
I think we should flip TA, he's the most information we can get. I've analyzed this a few different ways, and it always boils down to "I get more information from a TA flip than anything else".
-
:facepalm: which I mentioned last page, in my initial vote-for-TA.
Sorry for the repeat, I ended up rewriting that post about 4 times as I went through scenario after scenario of "if we lynch X, what does that give us?" but I didn't want to give away the game by explaining things too much for scum to manipulate.
-
Fair enough. I'm glad you can read me well, though!
-
FWIW, Liopoil and his partner discussed this last night, but they knew that if Lio claimed, he's the next lynch, and Ashersky looks really, really bad D6. So Lio's partner is either someone trying to make Ashersky look terrible. The thing is, though, if Ashersky is the partner, there's his defense -- he wouldn't do that if he were scum! I think it's just Ash and Lio trying to WIFOM the crap out of us.
You all don't have to read this analysis now, since no one but Chairs will believe it, but once I flip I hope you all will consider my views.
-
Love the effort, it makes everything much more helpful when you flip. I just wanna hammer and find everything out lol.
-
Love the effort, it makes everything much more helpful when you flip. I just wanna hammer and find everything out lol.
Eh, go for it!
-
Btw, I know your gut is telling you that I'm town, haha. But I agree that it's not a terrible move to hammer me, and I don't blame you at all.
-
I regret nothing about my claim getting me lynched, from my point of view, it outed a scum (Liopoil) at the cost of one mislynch (me), and it makes Jimmm, Mcmc, and Chairs seem very towny, and has a really good chance of nailing who I think is the last scum. I'd say that's worth it!
-
Vote Count 4.1
Meanwhile on the way to the Conservatory, Mr. Green was wondering what The Mechanic could have meant. "Something the lad... He said something about a lad," he muttered to himself.
"What room is that?" asked Mr. Boddy as they walked past an empty room.
"Search me," replied The Singing Telegram Girl
"All right," he said putting his hands on her hips and running them up and down her sides.
"Get your mitts off me!" she responded.
Twistedarcher (3): ashersky, liopoil, chairs
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, mcmcsalot
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Day4 will end on August 15 at 9 am forum time.
-
Hrm, actually, we have until the 15th to decide?
Let's lynch vote: liopoil instead then. I want to know everybody's thoughts on this, except TA (I already know your opinion, and I think we're on the same page about what's up here).
-
No, I believe Liopoil waaay more than I believe TA. TA's theoretical scenario is great however the fact remains I doubt liopoil has made a large mistake as scum and I think TA simply claimed to attempt to out liopoil before the no lynch and get him killed.
vote: twisted archer
-
I think Liopoil really screwed himself with his softclaim D3, and Ashersky told him N3 "No, you softclaimed, you must hardclaim now, otherwise they will believe TA is town and we will both get lynched"
-
From scum's perspective, it made sense to either kill or, or to counterclaim today. But it didn't make sense to do both.
-
If Ash is town, he's VT. Yet he immediately came out disbelieving my claim, which was different than every other VT in the game. His reaction was different from each VT because he's scum!
-
Yup, I'm your last PR, folks. will give my results and stuff before we lynch TA. spoiler: they're somewhat useful! Vote: TwistedArcher.
let's see these, btw.
-
No, I believe Liopoil waaay more than I believe TA. TA's theoretical scenario is great however the fact remains I doubt liopoil has made a large mistake as scum and I think TA simply claimed to attempt to out liopoil before the no lynch and get him killed.
vote: twisted archer
Like you said, I was winning the argument. What incentive did scum! TA have to claim there?
You are saying that you don't think lio would make a large mistake as scum, but you are saying that I made an even larger mistake as scum.
-
I think scum!TA decided he was losing the argument against ash and you were worried you might get lynch first today. If that happened scum was in a baaad spot because ash would be really towny(part of the reason I though you could both be scum)
Even if you got ash lynched you would go right after, and one for one is good for town. I think scum!TA tried to get liopoil to claim yesterday so that you could kill him during the night and we wouldn't get any info. That would be a win for scum!TA I think you and your partner made the minor mistake of not killing liopoil because you thought you could get him lynched today(oh btw I bet chairs is your partner)
All of that is good attempts at some different scum strategies that if I'm right just didn't work out for you. If you are out town PR and accurately got into a argument with scum making the two of you a 1 for 1 trade, scum!liopoil actively destroyed any chance scum had whatsoever of winning. I doubt that happened.
-
chairs, why are you voting for me? this one seems to be an easy call to me.
N1 chairs was my top suspect. however, I knew that to get a guilty result I have to target the player that does the kill. If chairs is scum, I reasoned, then he probably won't do the kill, I'd have the least suspected scum do the kill, and it would be better to investigate him the next night. Yes, psychologist was possible, however, you can make someone psychologist-immune, but once the detective can get you, he can get you forever. At that point, my top suspect who others didn't suspect as much was raerae. I investigated raerae N1, but she did not do the kill. oh well. this didn't really effect my read on her much though, as she could easily not have done the kill that night.
N2 chairs was still my top suspect, and this time I thought he probably would have done a kill, so I investigated him. has not killed result again, so big townread on him, but he could be scum
N3 I knew TA was scum, so I looked for his partner. I was kinda unsure on this one. I thought about looking at raeare again, but decided against it. I decided to look at mcmcsalot because I had suspicions on him awhile ago but had kinda forgotten about it. so I think he's town too. (I got a has not killed result again). So I actually think that Jimmmmm is most likely to be TA's partner, or maybe ashersky, but probably not.
-
chairs, why are you voting for me? this one seems to be an easy call to me.
N1 chairs was my top suspect. however, I knew that to get a guilty result I have to target the player that does the kill. If chairs is scum, I reasoned, then he probably won't do the kill, I'd have the least suspected scum do the kill, and it would be better to investigate him the next night. Yes, psychologist was possible, however, you can make someone psychologist-immune, but once the detective can get you, he can get you forever. At that point, my top suspect who others didn't suspect as much was raerae. I investigated raerae N1, but she did not do the kill. oh well. this didn't really effect my read on her much though, as she could easily not have done the kill that night.
N2 chairs was still my top suspect, and this time I thought he probably would have done a kill, so I investigated him. has not killed result again, so big townread on him, but he could be scum
N3 I knew TA was scum, so I looked for his partner. I was kinda unsure on this one. I thought about looking at raeare again, but decided against it. I decided to look at mcmcsalot because I had suspicions on him awhile ago but had kinda forgotten about it. so I think he's town too. (I got a has not killed result again). So I actually think that Jimmmmm is most likely to be TA's partner, or maybe ashersky, but probably not.
Because how I vote will influence how others vote, and I am scumhunting. I firmly believe if I am not NK'd tonight I will successfully deduce the scumteam. We know that EITHER you or TA is scum, and our trouble is determining (out of the 5 of us who remain) who's the last scum. More reactions gives me more to play with, and since I know I'm town, that means I'm only picking between 4 people and that one of those 4 people is going to be very, very worried about slipping up right now.
-
But tell you what, to make things really entertaining, unbote.
Intent to hammer, after reasonable discussion, whomever we decide as a group is the appropriate lynch.
-
christ, I can't type.
unvote
intent to hammer.
-
Wait for Raerae to come back and weigh in today, please
-
Lio's trying to WIFOM that Raerae could be his partner, when in actuality it's Ash.
-
I'm back.
TA has a faulty line of reasoning. I was right about him all along, btw. Listen to me next time.
Scum took a huge risk leaving him alive if he's real. No reason to. Zero. If TA was telling the truth, scum NKs him, then you all lynch me pretty easily. Why wouldn't scum take that option?
We have to lynch the counter claimed liar. If lio is lying (doubt it highly), he's lynched tomorrow.
-
Lio's trying to WIFOM that Raerae could be his partner, when in actuality it's Ash.
Your tunneling just sounds silly now. This is already-hammered scum rambling.
-
christ, I can't type.
unvote
intent to hammer.
It is time.
-
Partner may be unlikely to bus here...dire times for scum.
-
christ, I can't type.
unvote
intent to hammer.
It is time.
Wouldn't you like to hear from Raerae, just in case you're wrong? (and you are). I know I wouldn't like it if I missed an entire day cause I wasn't on the computer, and I doubt she would, either. At the very least we owe her that courtesy.
-
christ, I can't type.
unvote
intent to hammer.
It is time.
Wouldn't you like to hear from Raerae, just in case you're wrong? (and you are). I know I wouldn't like it if I missed an entire day cause I wasn't on the computer, and I doubt she would, either. At the very least we owe her that courtesy.
Not particularly. She'd hammer you, no matter her alignment. Of that I'm sure.
Not much here to comment on, plus we get long twilights.
-
That's true, I fully expect her to hammer me. But I think it's a good policy, regardless, to not end days before everyone's had a chance to check in.
I really hope you're scum...I trust my reads, but if I was wrong on you, I cost town the game :/
-
That's true, I fully expect her to hammer me. But I think it's a good policy, regardless, to not end days before everyone's had a chance to check in.
I really hope you're scum...I trust my reads, but if I was wrong on you, I cost town the game :/
TA, you are wrong, and you know you are wrong, because you are scum and know I'm town.
Still, nice try. I appreciate bold scum play, as seen by my own.
I will admit, if you are somehow not lying, even after we lynch liopoil tomorrow, we're in a tough spot.
I am pretty sure I know who your partner is, though.
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
Obligatory scum slip call out.
"We" is in reference to you and TA, the scumteam?
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
Obligatory scum slip call out.
"We" is in reference to you and TA, the scumteam?
I swear, every game in the future you call me out for a "scumslip", I'm going to point to this game as an example of why "scumslips" are not a thing, when they just simply involve awkward phrasing or typos.
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
Obligatory scum slip call out.
"We" is in reference to you and TA, the scumteam?
I swear, every game in the future you call me out for a "scumslip", I'm going to point to this game as an example of why "scumslips" are not a thing, when they just simply involve awkward phrasing or typos.
Did you miss the sarcasm there?
99% of all scumslips are nothing. 1%, or less, are actually scumslips. And when it happens, I will be there.
Also, sometimes, scum slips are on purpose. I did it in Mean Girls, and no one picked up on it.
-
I guess I missed the sarcasm, it's hard on the internet! You have called scumslips on minor things before, how am I to know when you're joking and when you aren't! :P
-
I guess I missed the sarcasm, it's hard on the internet! You have called scumslips on minor things before, how am I to know when you're joking and when you aren't! :P
Exactly. :)
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
Obligatory scum slip call out.
"We" is in reference to you and TA, the scumteam?
I was leaning "we", the town as a whole. I don't think that anybody is -in- a hammerable position atm (TA was, when my vote was ALREADY ON HIM).
-
Point taken ;)
-
If raerae has not had opportunity to post by the time I get home from work, it's hammerin' time (assuming we're at L-1).
Obligatory scum slip call out.
"We" is in reference to you and TA, the scumteam?
I was leaning "we", the town as a whole. I don't think that anybody is -in- a hammerable position atm (TA was, when my vote was ALREADY ON HIM).
Want me to unvote so you can vote and I can hammer?
-
Don't let Ashersky hammer, whatever you do!!! Dude's got enough hammers.
-
Before I vote I want two questions answered. The second is dependent upon the answer of the first. If anybody hammers before this conversation is finished, I swear you will be our lynch tomorrow if I have any say in the matter.
TA, who did you investigate last night?
(<24 hour days, people?? Really??)
-
Liopoil, because of his soft claim. But I knew it didn't matter, since scum know I'm psychologist, and they will have organized it so that if there was a scum alive who hadn't killed yet, they would have killed last night.
-
Second question:
TA, why have you never investigate Ash?
-
Vote Count 4.2
As they reached the Conservatory, Mrs. White let out a gasp.
On the floor surrounded by green plants lay yuma. Blood pooled at his side while in his chest was a the kitchen Knife found earlier by Mr. Green.
In his hand was the Revolver.
"Well, he's certainly dead now. Why would anyone want to kill him twice?" asked Yvette the Maid.
"It seems so unnecessary," said Mr. Boddy.
"That is what we call overkill," said The Cook.
"That is what we call psychotic," said Mr. Green.
Twistedarcher (3): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc (L-1)
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
Day4 will end on August 15 at 9 am forum time.
-
I'm actually surprised no one asked this question yet, it's a good one.
D1, even though Ashersky read scummy, Jimmm had two posts at the end of the day that set off alarm bells to me. I was hoping to catch an under the radar scum, as I thought there was a greater chance of Ashersky killing, if he was scum, than his partners.
D2, after Nkirbit's death, I looked at the Ashersky wagon, and realized that if Jimmm and Mcmc were scum, I had reason to believe that everyone on the wagon was scum. I was also pretty damn confident on my Ashersky case, and was hunting for the other scum. I also thought that Ashersky, once again, was more likely to perform the kill N1 or N2.
D3, my investigation didn't matter
-
That should be N1, not D1, etc.
-
I'm actually surprised no one asked this question yet, it's a good one.
D1, even though Ashersky read scummy, Jimmm had two posts at the end of the day that set off alarm bells to me. I was hoping to catch an under the radar scum, as I thought there was a greater chance of Ashersky killing, if he was scum, than his partners.
D2, after Nkirbit's death, I looked at the Ashersky wagon, and realized that if Jimmm and Mcmc were scum, I had reason to believe that everyone on the wagon was scum. I was also pretty damn confident on my Ashersky case, and was hunting for the other scum. I also thought that Ashersky, once again, was more likely to perform the kill N1 or N2.
D3, my investigation didn't matter
What ashersky wagon on D2?
-
Your D1 wagon, cmon man, it's very clear what I mean.
-
Didn't you, at one point, assert that everybody who voted for Ash was town? Or am I making that up in my head?
-
Yep, this was after my Jimmm and Mcmc investigations, and during my D3 case.
-
Now, that's a lot of people to vote for one person. But we know that UoS, Shraeye, and Volt were all town, and Ash's vote doesn't really count. That leaves TA, Eevee, Jimmm, and Mcmc. I know I'm town, and I have a towny read on Eevee also (what else is new...). I also really think that Chairs is town, due to Nkirbit's position driving that wagon early, and the end of the D1, where no lynch really went forward easily. That leaves Jimmm and Mcmc, one of whom could be a potential Ashersky partner, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're both town, as well.
The relevent information. I hadn't claimed, so I didn't really have a good public reason to believe Jimm and Mcmc were town, so I had to hedge it at this to not give anything away.
-
Then I don't understand your N2 reasoning. Can you explain that one more time? Go slow and use little words, please.
-
I had a scum read on Ashersky, after believing that Jimmm was town. Investigating Mcmc had two goals: to find out if Ashersky's wagon was entirely scum composed, and to see if Mcmc was an undercover scum. I initially had PM'd Yuma to investigate Ashersky, then switched it. I'll go read my PM to him now to give you my exact reasoning at the time.
If I had a do-over, I'd have investigated Ash N2.
-
I had a scum read on Ashersky, after believing that Jimmm was town. Investigating Mcmc had two goals: to find out if Ashersky's wagon was entirely scum composed, and to see if Mcmc was an undercover scum. I initially had PM'd Yuma to investigate Ashersky, then switched it. I'll go read my PM to him now to give you my exact reasoning at the time.
If I had a do-over, I'd have investigated Ash N2.
Why did your investigations clear Jimmmmm and mcmc, in your own mind? You note yourself that you don't get 100% results given the nature of your claimed role. They could have still been scum...so why give them the free pass?
-
Nvm, I was on Mcmc all along, although I talked out my options out loud. Never ordered an Ash investigation, though. Reasoning is basically what I just said, I was dubious that I'd get a result, anyways.
-
I'm actually surprised no one asked this question yet, it's a good one.
D1, even though Ashersky read scummy, Jimmm had two posts at the end of the day that set off alarm bells to me. I was hoping to catch an under the radar scum, as I thought there was a greater chance of Ashersky killing, if he was scum, than his partners.
D2, after Nkirbit's death, I looked at the Ashersky wagon, and realized that if Jimmm and Mcmc were scum, I had reason to believe that everyone on the wagon was scum. I was also pretty damn confident on my Ashersky case, and was hunting for the other scum. I also thought that Ashersky, once again, was more likely to perform the kill N1 or N2.
D3, my investigation didn't matter
I don't want to see the PM, I want you to explain the bolded above.
-
I had a scum read on Ashersky, after believing that Jimmm was town. Investigating Mcmc had two goals: to find out if Ashersky's wagon was entirely scum composed, and to see if Mcmc was an undercover scum. I initially had PM'd Yuma to investigate Ashersky, then switched it. I'll go read my PM to him now to give you my exact reasoning at the time.
If I had a do-over, I'd have investigated Ash N2.
Why did your investigations clear Jimmmmm and mcmc, in your own mind? You note yourself that you don't get 100% results given the nature of your claimed role. They could have still been scum...so why give them the free pass?
Better Odds that they're town. Probably was too confident in my results, in retrospect, but oh well.
-
I'm actually surprised no one asked this question yet, it's a good one.
D1, even though Ashersky read scummy, Jimmm had two posts at the end of the day that set off alarm bells to me. I was hoping to catch an under the radar scum, as I thought there was a greater chance of Ashersky killing, if he was scum, than his partners.
D2, after Nkirbit's death, I looked at the Ashersky wagon, and realized that if Jimmm and Mcmc were scum, I had reason to believe that everyone on the wagon was scum. I was also pretty damn confident on my Ashersky case, and was hunting for the other scum. I also thought that Ashersky, once again, was more likely to perform the kill N1 or N2.
D3, my investigation didn't matter
I don't want to see the PM, I want you to explain the bolded above.
Oops. My mistake. "If Jimmm and Mcmc were TOWN, I had reason to believe that everyone on the wagon was TOWN."
In retrospect, looking at my PMs, I wasn't as confident in the Ashersky case N2 as I remembered, either, that really developed D3.
Does that explain it? I have no idea why I keep making that typo. Let me know if something else needs clearing up
-
Vote: TwistedArcher
There are way too many holes and missteps in your explanations.
-
Vote: TwistedArcher
There are way too many holes and missteps in your explanations.
Congrats on the first hammer!
-
Do we use Twilight giving last reads in case we die?
I mean, remaining scum kills liopoil, unless liopoil is the remaining scum, or the remaining scum wants to make us think liopoil is the remaining scum.
But really, he'll just kill liopoil, I think, given he's claimed Detective and can't be dodged.
-
I'm town. Lynch Lio tomorrow, Ash D6.
Don't blame you guys, ultimately I went on feel and that's a tough thing to explain / justify. I'll make sure to take better notes next time I'm a PR, though, because honestly when you asked me those questions, I was wondering them myself and kicking myself for not investigating Ash.
I really hope you're scum, Ash. I really do.
-
ashersky, why do you care so much about hammers??
-
I'm town. Lynch Lio tomorrow, Ash D6.
Don't blame you guys, ultimately I went on feel and that's a tough thing to explain / justify. I'll make sure to take better notes next time I'm a PR, though, because honestly when you asked me those questions, I was wondering them myself and kicking myself for not investigating Ash.
I really hope you're scum, Ash. I really do.
Well, if TA is town, definitely Lynch Lio tomorrow. Doesn't make me scum, though. I'll feel like an ass, for sure, though.
-
I'm town. Lynch Lio tomorrow, Ash D6.
Don't blame you guys, ultimately I went on feel and that's a tough thing to explain / justify. I'll make sure to take better notes next time I'm a PR, though, because honestly when you asked me those questions, I was wondering them myself and kicking myself for not investigating Ash.
I really hope you're scum, Ash. I really do.
Well, if TA is town, definitely Lynch Lio tomorrow. Doesn't make me scum, though. I'll feel like an ass, for sure, though.
If we're both town, I nominate us for joint-LVP. Sounds good?
-
I'm town. Lynch Lio tomorrow, Ash D6.
Don't blame you guys, ultimately I went on feel and that's a tough thing to explain / justify. I'll make sure to take better notes next time I'm a PR, though, because honestly when you asked me those questions, I was wondering them myself and kicking myself for not investigating Ash.
I really hope you're scum, Ash. I really do.
Well, if TA is town, definitely Lynch Lio tomorrow. Doesn't make me scum, though. I'll feel like an ass, for sure, though.
If we're both town, I nominate us for joint-LVP. Sounds good?
Agreed.
-
Final Day4 Vote Count
"Mr. Green! That is the same Knife we saw earlier in the Kitchen," said the Singing Telegram Girl. "What did you do with it after you found it?"
"I don't remember," said Mr. Green. "I remember we were searching the Kitchen when we heard that someone had found yuma."
"Yes," said Yvette the Maid. "That was when we thought yuma had died the first time."
"Wait, you don't think that I killed yuma do you?" asked Mr. Green.
"Well somebody had to have done it, and right now the evidence points to you!" said Col. Mustard.
"I didn't do it," shouted Mr. Green.
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
You are now in Twilight. Night4 will begin whenever I wake up tomorrow morning. Reminder to send me a PM acknowledging the start of night (I will accept these PMs during twilight).
-
Final Day4 Vote Count
<insert flavor>
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
You are now in Twilight. Night4 will begin whenever I wake up tomorrow morning. Reminder to send me a PM acknowledging the start of night (I will accept these PMs during twilight).
can TA talk in his QT?
-
Do we use Twilight giving last reads in case we die?
I mean, remaining scum kills liopoil, unless liopoil is the remaining scum, or the remaining scum wants to make us think liopoil is the remaining scum.
But really, he'll just kill liopoil, I think, given he's claimed Detective and can't be dodged.
Nobody even rereads reads so it only gives scum info...I say no.
-
Final Day4 Vote Count
<insert flavor>
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
You are now in Twilight. Night4 will begin whenever I wake up tomorrow morning. Reminder to send me a PM acknowledging the start of night (I will accept these PMs during twilight).
can TA talk in his QT?
Bolded for emphasis:
Can TA continue to talk during twilight in the QT? Was nkirbit able to?
-
Do we use Twilight giving last reads in case we die?
I mean, remaining scum kills liopoil, unless liopoil is the remaining scum, or the remaining scum wants to make us think liopoil is the remaining scum.
But really, he'll just kill liopoil, I think, given he's claimed Detective and can't be dodged.
Nobody even rereads reads so it only gives scum info...I say no.
I agree, and think no one should talk at all. It just gives scum info.
I'm going on the record with "I don't like yuma's rule that scum can talk in the QT during twilight."
-
Final Day4 Vote Count
<insert flavor>
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
You are now in Twilight. Night4 will begin whenever I wake up tomorrow morning. Reminder to send me a PM acknowledging the start of night (I will accept these PMs during twilight).
can TA talk in his QT?
Bolded for emphasis:
Can TA continue to talk during twilight in the QT? Was nkirbit able to?
TA may continue to post in this thread until he is actually lynched. However, nkirbit was not allowed to post in the mafia QT after he died.
-
Final Day4 Vote Count
<insert flavor>
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (3) raerae, Jimmmm, chairs
With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.
You are now in Twilight. Night4 will begin whenever I wake up tomorrow morning. Reminder to send me a PM acknowledging the start of night (I will accept these PMs during twilight).
can TA talk in his QT?
Bolded for emphasis:
Can TA continue to talk during twilight in the QT? Was nkirbit able to?
TA may continue to post in this thread until he is actually lynched. However, nkirbit was not allowed to post in the mafia QT after he died.
Give the people a flip, Yuma! They really want it! ;)
-
Reworded for allowable answers:
If a mafia is the lynch for the day, but hasn't yet been "lynched" due to extended twilight, may that mafia member post in their QT during twilight, up until the lynch is confirmed and the game thread locked?
-
Also, either way, I think we should all stop talking anyway.
And if that's the case, no need for extended twilight.
-
I think that mafia should absolutely never be able to talk in a QT until after a thread is locked and a flip revealed. No idea if that's what we're doing here or not, but scum, dead or alive, shouldn't have that advantage, since it's still daytime. Right?
-
I think that mafia should absolutely never be able to talk in a QT until after a thread is locked and a flip revealed. No idea if that's what we're doing here or not, but scum, dead or alive, shouldn't have that advantage, since it's still daytime. Right?
That's my belief, yes.
But generally, QTs aren't unlocked until this thread is locked and flips are posted. Since that's unorthodox, I felt it was better to ask.
-
Reworded for allowable answers:
If a mafia is the lynch for the day, but hasn't yet been "lynched" due to extended twilight, may that mafia member post in their QT during twilight, up until the lynch is confirmed and the game thread locked?
No. That player may not post in the QT, but may post in the thread
-
Vote: End Twilight
-
Reworded for allowable answers:
If a mafia is the lynch for the day, but hasn't yet been "lynched" due to extended twilight, may that mafia member post in their QT during twilight, up until the lynch is confirmed and the game thread locked?
No. That player may not post in the QT, but may post in the thread
Cool. Cool, cool, cool.
-
Vote: End Twilight
vote: End Twilight
-
Twilight is not something that can be voted upon. You can't make the sun set any faster than the Earth rotates. Night will begin in the morning (see what I did there?)
-
Twilight is not something that can be voted upon. You can't make the sun set any faster than the Earth rotates. Night will begin in the morning (see what I did there?)
Superman wants a word with you.
-
Bummer.
-
Twilight is not something that can be voted upon. You can't make the sun set any faster than the Earth rotates. Night will begin in the morning (see what I did there?)
Superman wants a word with you.
How come we haven't done any comic strip based mafia games... batman, superman, iron man... lot's of possibilities there...
-
Add it to the list, it'll happen in 6 months :P
Justice League Mafia?
-
Twilight is not something that can be voted upon. You can't make the sun set any faster than the Earth rotates. Night will begin in the morning (see what I did there?)
Superman wants a word with you.
How come we haven't done any comic strip based mafia games... batman, superman, iron man... lot's of possibilities there...
I could do Spider-Man or X-Men pretty easily.
-
Wake up sleepy head! I want a flip!
-
End of Day4
As the group of remaining guests tried to determine whether or not Mr. Green committed the murder of yuma in the Conservatory with the Knife the storm continued to rage outside.
Suddenly lightning flashed. Everything lit up and then just as quickly everything went dark. The lights went out.
The Singing Telegram Girl and Mr. Green screamed. A gun shot rang out again.
Moments later the lights again flicked on.
Two bodies--well three if you count yuma, but we aren't counting him for this purpose--lay on the ground. One was Col. Mustard. He had been shot. The gun lay in-between his body and yuma's.
He was dead.
Twistedarcher, Col. Mustard, Town Psychologist has been lynched.
All night actions to me by Wednesday, August 7 at 10 pm forum time.
Night4 Begins Now
This Thread Is Locked
-
Day5 Start
Everyone was grieving over the death of Col. Mustard but what they didn't notice was that Mr. Green wasn't getting up.
"Come on Mr. Green. We need to get these bodies with the rest," said The Cook.
But Mr. Green wasn't getting up. He was dead. It appeared that he died from fright.
mcmcsalot, Vanilla Townie, Mr. Green was killed during the night.
Vote Count 5.1
Not voting (5): Jimmmmm, ashersky, raerae, chairs, liopoil
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline for Day5 is August 17 at 10 pm forum time.
Day5 Starts Now!
-
Vote: liopoil
-
True dat, home slice.
Vote: liopoil
Explain this though...mcmcsalot was sooooooo right with his reasoning. Why did you bother counter-claiming instead of just killing the PR straight off the bat?
-
Vote Count 5.1
"I am really scared. Everyone is dying. Why don't we just leave?" asked The Singing Telegram Girl. "I mean, why are we still here? Everyone is just dying off one by one. I am leaving right now."
"Well if you leave when the police arrive I will tell them that you did it," said Mrs. White.
"Me too!" shouted everyone else.
"I don't care. It doesn't matter because I didn't commit the murders!" said The Singing Telegram Girl. And with that she marched off toward the Hall and the front door. Everyone else followed her leaving behind the bodies of Mr. Green, yuma and Col. Mustard.
But The Singing Telegram Girl was surprised when she reached the front door. It was locked!
liopoil (2): Jimmmmm, raerae
Not voting (5): ashersky, chairs, liopoil
With 5 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline for Day5 is August 17 at 10 pm forum time.
-
vote: liopoil. might as well move on to day 6.
-
Twilight Begins Now
Vote Count 5.2
"Why is the door locked?" asked The Cook.
"Who locked the door? Who has the key?" said Mr. Boddy.
"Everyone empty their pockets, the women their purses," said Mrs. White.
Everyone emptied their pockets. No key was found.
"We need to see if there is another way out of here," said The Cook. Everyone split up and see if you can find a window without bars or a door that will open to the outside. I think we should all just leave and pretend that we were never here.
Everyone split up and soon the Hall was empty.
But after a few moments Yvette the Maid came back. She took a key from her bosom and unlocked and opened the front door. She turned the key to the front door, threw the key into the courtyard and shut the locked door behind her.
liopoil: (3) Jimmmmm, raerae, chairs
I imagine everyone will want a quicker start to day. Let me know if you don't. As such I will lock the thread tomorrow morning and then likely reopen it tomorrow evening. Please remember to check in during the night acknowledging the start of night. Day6 will not start early if anyone of any alignment objects, nor will it start before everyone has checked in.
-
You all suck for not letting us use this day. Obviously we're lynching lio.
-
Mega Post Incoming:
I re-read Liopoil. Every single post (all 76 posts in game). I did this because, well, he's clearly scum, given TA's incredibly gut-wrenching flip. I still wonder if yuma isn't just messing with us.
Anyway, we need to find liopoil's partner. Here's what I got from his posts. They are numbered in order that he posted them -- I used "Print Page" because of the length of the thread. You can Ctrl-F "Post by: liopoil" and get to the post number (add 8 to the numbers here, since he had 8 pre-game posts). I bolded/color-coded all names he mentions. "M:" means "mentions:". I will post my thoughts separately, referencing numbers here.
Day 1:
1st-6th: Offers a different, odd Hider plan, with explanations
7th-8th: More plan talk. Mentions the names ashersky, Jimmmmm, UoS. FoS at shraeye, raerae, ashersky
9th: responds to raerae's vote, more plan talk
10th: responds to shraeye's vote that was based on the highly edited line; mentions UoS as a town read
11th: M: UoS, says scum could post long posts like his for towncred
12th: responds to raerae regarding the contradiction in his statements about UoS; m: ash to stop self-voting, etc.
13th: says would policy vote ash if he didn't want to lynch scum, agrees the Hider plan is vague but is easily fixed
14th: responds to nkirbit's vote that was based on lio's 12th post
15th: asks shraeye for reasons that shraeye had asked for lio votes early in the day
16th: mentions soft deadline, wants a lynch soon after; first reads!
town: UoS, ash
maybe scum: nkirbit, volt, robz, raerae, mcmc
17th: caught up after long break, says volt is a bad lynch, nkirbit/robz are his top choices
18th: reacts to having only 17 posts on latest post count, acts surprised
19th: says maybe theory talk was why he was so quiet, agrees to the plan but names himself, UoS, Ash, and Volt as people he will skip (won't hide behind).
20th: clarifies those names are his top town reads. States intent to vote for chairs (to put at L-1). New reads in 4 tiers (scum to town):
chairs, robz, nkirbit
raerae, mcmc
shraeye, TA, Eevee, Jimmmmm
ash, UoS, Volt
21st:votes for chairs. This is his first and only vote of Day 1.
22nd: mentions his weekend VLA
23rd: @ash, says he doesn't usually lurk and sheep, asks why everyone believes the chairs VT claim
24th: asks ash why I want Volt to claim
25th: states willingness to switch to Volt to avoid a no lynch
26th: @ash, argues lynching chairs solely on a VT claim is bad, but better than lynching a PR
27th: states lynching scum is his first priority
Day 1: Twlight
28th: Ash should have waited to hammer
29th-30th: reads Volt's reaction to the hammer and twilight posts as making him more likely to be scum
31st: fluff, waiting for flip
32nd: argues with mcmc; disagrees that Volt lynch was okay as it went down, thought Volt would be IC after claim
33rd: responds to a chairs post saying Volt as scum would benefit from lying during twilight
34th: responds to UoS that while he thinks Volt is town, he's hoping he's scum
35th-36th: asks Volt's flavor name; wonders if it is the one significant one
37th-38th: replies to shraeye about scum being more likely to think about lying during twilight, says anyone would think that
39th: fluff
40th: asks UoS what we should discuss
41st: mentions Robz
42nd: emoticon, in response to not talking due to scum twilight chat
43rd: argues it is okay to talk during twilight since scum has day chat in blitz anyway and this is no different
Day 2:
44th: Finds UoS plan quote, PPE mention that raerae already did it, votes nkirbit (2nd vote of the game, only one on D2)
45th: after confusion possible talk, still thinks it is nkirbit, believes confusion could have been easily avoided
46th: says "wow, fast lynch" and says nkirbit sounds like scum
Day 3:
47th: 1st poster of D3, mentions 8 alive, no lynch
48th: unless PR found scum, no lynch is best, votes no lynch (3rd vote of the game)
49th: Hider plan worked great, we have dead scum to analyze, surprised by the Robz NK
50th: Lists who voted for nkirbit D1 (shraeye only) and who nkirbit voted for D1 (chairs, liopoil, chairs)
51st: Responds to Jimmmmm about whether misunderstanding the plan is scummy or not; says could be
52nd: responds to Eevee and explains No Lynch very well
53rd: says odd reactions to the Hider plan would be scummy
54th: if TA and Ash are both town, we are in deep trouble, is super hedgy on both, asks Ash why I thought both scum would have killed by D3 and why I only mention Eevee, Jimmmmm, and mcmc in my scum reads
55th: long break, comes back with "oh, this game" and wants no-lynch still, worried about the game becomes TA v. Ash only, says TA is more likely to be scum, believes town v. town is the most likely scenario
56th: questions why mcmc finds liopoil and raerae towny. Does not think Eevee is scummy.
57th: says will re-read ashersky (never does)
58th: willing to end the day with a no lynch
59th: votes TA (4th vote ever), starts laying the fakeclaim foundation
60th-61st: more fakeclaim foundation
62nd-64th: PR wifom (great stuff if he wasn't fakeclaiming)
65th: believes no counterclaim is best in the scenario, says TA's not cleared
66th: says NL is okay with him, doesn't change his vote
67th: @ash, why do I want him to claim?
68th: fluff joke
Day 4:
69th: Fakeclaims PR, votes TA. (5th vote of the game)
70th: Fakeclaim expanded to Detective, no guilty results
71st: Responds to mcmc, discusses why scum left him alive
72nd: mentions non-zero chance of TA-Lio scum team from a neutral perspective
73rd: agrees with Jimmmmm when he points out that the real PR would just out them both
74th: asks why chairs is voting for him, gives his fake results
N1: raerae, not guilty
N2: chairs, not guilty
N3: mcmc, not guilty
75th: asks ash why he likes hammers so much
76th: asks if TA can talk in the scum QT during twilight
-
Here are liopoil votes:
D1: chairs
D2: nkirbit
D3: no-lynch, TA
D4: TA
Here are people who voted liopoil:
D1: shraeye, raerae, nkirbit, Robz
D4: TA, chairs
-
I had this written as well, before mcmc got killed:
So, liopoil is absolutely our lynch today. We need to find his partner. Here are my thoughts.
After the re-read, I think that mcmcsalot is liopoil's partner.
Generally speaking, I think Jimmmmm comes off towniest out of the liopoil interactions. Based on mentions and responses, mcmc and raerae are most likely to me, and liopoil's 54th post of the game seals it for me.
I mention scum reads, and only list (in addition to TA), Eevee, Jimmmmm, and mcmcsalot. Eevee is confirmed town now, and Jimmmmm comes off as towniest from the lio re-read. Jimmmmm was also my top choice for TA's partner based on interactions there.
Anyway--I think liopoil's reaction to my post gives away his partner. If I listed all town there, scum!liopoil had no reason to ask why I didn't mention anyone else, or to get me to include others. He could have just left it alone, like most everyone else did. I think he saw his partner on the short list and brought it up. It jives with a lot of the interactions I mentioned.
Now that mcmc is dead, my suspicion falls squarely on Jimmmmm.
-
One of the remaining town dies tonight. We need to get thoughts out here now for lylo use.
Here's where I'm glad yuma actually wants twilight.
-
To me, it's Jimmmmm, raerae, or chairs. To each of you, it's a different set of three.
Man, if it's chairs, bravo on the early VT claim.
If it's raerae, well, damn girl.
If it's Jimmmmm, don't lurk as scum.
Based on my liopoil analysis, Jimmmmm shines through to me, since they killed off mcmc.
-
liopoil's day 1 actions toward chairs make me think he's not likely the partner. He put chairs to L-1, which is fine as a bus. But with Volt available, he's still arguing for his own partner, which I don't think he'd do.
-
Jimmmmm and myself are the only ones left alive who had never voted for liopoil (before today, which clearly doesn't count).
Jimmmmm's opening post for this day is his lio vote and he's said nothing since.
That's all I can dig out of voting records.
-
Why is no one talking?
-
I was busy, sorry.
I think you've done some fine analysis. I'm still torn on who to vote, though, and I think the NK will probably decide it for me. I can't really analyze without the last flip, I'm afraid.
-
I think it's highly probable that liopoil and his partner discussed tonight's kill in addition to last night's. I'm hoping some discussion will seed some doubt that they made the right decisions.
Remember, lio can't talk anymore in the QT, per mod clarification.
We're looking for who fits in the nkirbit/liopoil/X equation. A re-read of nkirbit's interactions may be useful as well. There just wasn't as much there.
-
I will say, if Day 6 opens the way Day 5 did, it's clear who scum is.
-
Reread nkirbit. A lot of plan talk, and then almost exclusively pushing chairs for the entirety of D1. Then he did D2.
I find it hard to believe he'd bus his partner for a full day when there were ample opportunities to switch.
-
As I think I've attempted to make clear, I'm Town.
tbh I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the NK.
-
As I think I've attempted to make clear, I'm Town.
tbh I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the NK.
I basically all but think you are IC a this point. BUT, gotta consider everything and everyone at this point.
How TA was not scum I still do not understand.
-
As I think I've attempted to make clear, I'm Town.
tbh I wouldn't be surprised if I'm the NK.
I basically all but think you are IC a this point. BUT, gotta consider everything and everyone at this point.
How TA was not scum I still do not understand.
As soon as he claimed Psych instead of Detective I was pretty much convinced 100% he was Town.
If I'd had that PR, I'd have gone Detective... and if I was scum, I'd have claimed Detective (as Lio did).
-
I think the only result of an extended discussion today is that scum will get a good idea of who to kill tonight.
-
End of Day5
As the guests returned from their search of the house they went directly to the Hall.
But something wasn't the same there as when the left it.
"Something looks different from when we left," said The Cook.
"Yes, I think there is a new decoration or something that changes how this place looks," replied Mr. Boddy.
It wasn't a new decoration. It was the body of Yvette the Maid hanging from the doorway. She was dead. Around her neck was tied a Rope.
Another dead body.
At that moment a large doberman came barking and running down the Hall!
"SIT!" shouted Mr. Boddy.
The Singing Telegram Girl immediately sat down on the bench at the entrance of the Hall.
"No, not you, ma'am."
liopoil, Mafia Goon, Yvette the Maid has been lynched.
Night5 Begins Now
All night actions are due to me by Friday, August 9 at 10 pm forum time. Day6 will begin shortly thereafter.
Please remember to CHECK IN with me before the beginning of Day6 acknowledging the start of night if you have not yet done so.
This Thread is Now Locked.
-
Day6 Start
The remaining four guests, The Singing Telegram Girl, Mrs. White, The Cook and Mr. Boddy were startled by the sudden appearance of the Doberman. The dog was racing down the Hall and only Mr. Boddy's command for it to sit stopped it in its tracks.
Up until that point each guest thought that they were going to be eaten by this ginormous dog. Instead the dog skidded to a stop and dropped at the feet of Mr. Boddy a small black object.
No one died last night.
Vote Count 6.1
Not voting: (4) chairs, Jimmmm, ashersky, raerae
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline for Day6 is August 19 at 10 pm forum time.
This Thread is Unlocked
-
Chairs, why so quick to hammer?
Ash, I don't understand your reasoning on Jimmmmmm...first he comes off towniest then he's most suspicious?
Jimmmmmm, coasting or genuinely uninterested?
-
No kill is smart.
vote: no lynch
We should force Lylo.
Mcmc was my top suspect on reread, then he died. Jimmmmm remains. Also, jimmmmm is a no kill kind of guy.
-
But you said he was towniest. How does he suddenly become the most likely suspect?
-
Because he is the only one left from the three I listed that peaked lio's interest.
-
I think the only result of an extended discussion today is that scum will get a good idea of who to kill tonight.
This was odd to me.
His only other post was to just vote with no discussion.
-
Should we mass flavor name claim? There are only 4 names left anyway.
-
NK instead of a chairs kill makes chairs more suspicious. That could be by design, though.
Scum had to know we'd nolynch at Mylo to force Lylo or HAE.
-
But you said he was towniest. How does he suddenly become the most likely suspect?
What are your reads, anyway? You have had much to say recently.
-
Jimmmmmm, coasting or genuinely uninterested?
Genuinely busy. At work at the moment in fact.
Vote: no lynch.
-
That's L-1 for NL. I have no issues with sending this back into night. We need to force scum into helping us.
-
Should we mass flavor name claim? There are only 4 names left anyway.
I don't see the benefit or the hurt in this.
-
Should we mass flavor name claim? There are only 4 names left anyway.
I don't see the benefit or the hurt in this.
There is none. Just asked because, well, someone controls the dog.
-
Working on pulling those thoughts together but want to hear from chairs on that hammer first. Please don't push this into night again before I've had a chance to say my piece. I know I helped jack that up yesterday but let's avoid it this time if we can.
-
raerae, I'm not sure why you have a question. I said what I meant - I didn't see a point in dragging the day on. I still don't.
I'll refrain from hammering today since you clearly do.
-
raerae, I'm not sure why you have a question. I said what I meant - I didn't see a point in dragging the day on. I still don't.
I'll refrain from hammering today since you clearly do.
Well, I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve? Ash was right, we should have discussed the TA thing and I should have recognized that before putting him at L-1 but you certainly should have weighed the consequences of a hammer before throwing it so carelessly. On top of that, you appear to have been fully prepared to do that again today. Why so excited to go to night day after day?
-
Reads will be posted tomorrow, I'm going to be soon if at all possible.
-
raerae, I'm not sure why you have a question. I said what I meant - I didn't see a point in dragging the day on. I still don't.
I'll refrain from hammering today since you clearly do.
Well, I'm sorry, did I hit a nerve? Ash was right, we should have discussed the TA thing and I should have recognized that before putting him at L-1 but you certainly should have weighed the consequences of a hammer before throwing it so carelessly. On top of that, you appear to have been fully prepared to do that again today. Why so excited to go to night day after day?
Wait, are we talking about yesterday's hammer or did I hammer on TA? Because I'm being flippant about yesterday since we knew 100% who to hammer that day and there was no point in my mind of wasting anybody's time IRL by not hammering.
-
(I'm not mad, just confused about why you think there's a problem here).
-
I think she meant yesterday.
-
Nope. I meant yesterday and today. The post below clearly indicates that he wanted to hammer today but stopped because I raised a fuss.
raerae, I'm not sure why you have a question. I said what I meant - I didn't see a point in dragging the day on. I still don't.
I'll refrain from hammering today since you clearly do.
And now for my thoughts on you beautiful boys.
Ash, I still don't understand your explanation of Jimmmmm's scumminess. He was your towniest read then flipped to being your scummiest. I don't know if this was a scum slip and now you're forced to roll with it or if your logic truly is just above my head but it doesn't make sense either way.
Chairs, there is no reason for you to still be alive. You claimed VT D1 and basically nobody questioned it or disbelieved it. You should be dead and you're not and that doesn't make sense.
Jimmmmm, hasn't been involved much and that hasn't raised very many eyebrows. Either scum lurking fabulously or quiet town scum is hoping to keep around and convince at the end.
-
And you could be scum too.
I PoE came to Jimmmmm due to liopoil's post calling out my three reads. I think it is very likely he did that because I mentioned his partner.
-
Still No Lynch is the right call today.
-
Well, yeah, but I couldn't come up with any compelling reasons to convince myself I might be scum.
Can you give me a post # for your reads, please?
Can you run the no lynch thing by me one more time? If we no lynch then scum is forced to kill or if they don't then we happily ever after? Is that the gist of it?
-
I don't know the post number.
If you read the long posts I posted during last twilight you will see it all. From scum to town at this point:
Jimmmmm > chairs > raerae
No lynch forces scum to kill, yes. Up to the mod, but a cycle of no lynch, no kill, forces a tie game.
-
OK, coolio, I'll review but for now, intent to hammer in, like, before I go to bed minutes.
-
OK, coolio, I'll review but for now, intent to hammer in, like, before I go to bed minutes.
That's cool. Last twilight has a lot of info I provided. Check it, yo.
-
Vote: No Lynch
-
Two hammers for raerae now!
yuma, how many no-lynch/no-kill cycles required for a Happily Ever After?
-
Two hammers for raerae now!
yuma, how many no-lynch/no-kill cycles required for a Happily Ever After?
Three nights/days in a row. That is once we have either:
1 - a no-kill, a no-lynch and then another no-kill HEA or a modkill of a random player from the team that didn't kill will take place depending on my mood.
2 - a no-lynch, a no-kill, and then another no-lynch HEA or a modkill of a random player from the town that didn't lynch will take place depending on my mood.
-
End of Day6
While the doberman was sitting nicely Mrs. White was eyeing the dog carefully. She had a great mistrust of dogs. She was much more of a cat person after all. Something of a crazy cat lady.
Suddenly she started to run. She RAAAANNNNNN DOWN THE HALL!! The Doberman giving chase.
"I can't take this anymore," she yelled as she ran. "I am breaking out. I am going to break the glass in the Conservatory!"
She was almost to the door of the indoor garden when the doberman caught up to her.
You had your Twilight while I was in bed. Night actions to me by August 13, 11:59 pm form time. The thread will open for Day7 sometime around then, or even before depending on whether or not all players want the thread to open early. Please confirm the start of night via PM and let me know if you would like the thread to open early or if you would like the full night.
This Thread is Locked
-
Begin Day7
The doberman snapped at Mrs. White's foot. She stumbled and fell. She fell right on top of the Kitchen Knife, that was strangely left with its point facing upwards. As the other guests caught up to her, they quickly realized that the Knife had punctured through her.
"I think she is dead," said Mr. Boddy.
"So now there are only three of us," said The Cook.
"This is getting dangerous," said The Singing Telegram Girl.
chairs, Vanilla Townie, Mrs. White has died in the night.
Vote Count 7.1
Not voting: (3) ashersky, raerae, Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time.
This Thread is Unlocked
-
lylo.
Jimmmmm, I'd like to hear from you. You've been very quiet for awhile now.
raerae, thoughts on Jimmmmm?
No voting, people. This is it.
-
lylo.
Jimmmmm, I'd like to hear from you. You've been very quiet for awhile now.
raerae, thoughts on Jimmmmm?
No voting, people. This is it.
I'll reread the two of you tonight. Agreed, agreed, no voting before discussion.
-
lylo.
Jimmmmm, I'd like to hear from you. You've been very quiet for awhile now.
raerae, thoughts on Jimmmmm?
No voting, people. This is it.
I'll reread the two of you tonight. Agreed, agreed, no voting before discussion.
We should all three re-read the other two. I plan to as well.
-
Okay so we have 10 days. I think we can all agree that it would be good to get it finished before then, but also we should use as much time as would be helpful.
-
I'll start on some re-reads this afternoon.
-
Okay, re-read Jimmmmm first. Here's what I got. Same format as liopoil re-read. Jimmmmm has 87 posts total, 4 were pregame. The posts are listed from #1 to #83, starting with the first post after the game started.
D1
#1 - Asks about flavor name claiming.
#2 - plan talk
#3 - RVS vote on UoS; says vets are telling the newbie what to do
#4 - Responds to UoS's Xeiron joke; says he "confirmed his suspicions"
#5 - Responds to votes on himself; says the UoS vote was half-RVS, half reaction-fishing; more plan talk
#6 - plan talk
#7 - irritated at ashersky for "lynch ash" talk
#8 - one liner
#9 - plan talk
#10 - plan talk
#11 - one liner
#12 - apologies for plan talk, agrees to the plan in bold; says vig is bad for town; argues with ashersky regarding the "use" of the Hider role. [votes: ashersky]
#13 - responds to ashersky's read on Jimmmmm, says one point (that take-charge Jimmmmm is often scum!Jimmmmm) is valid, but defends by saying it is his only game. Agrees with Robz that ashersky should be lynched for even suggesting Vig over Tracker.
#14 - points out that ashersky is at L-2; discusses ashersky's behavior and wonders if ashersky is being bold scum by taking a known anti-town stance; says either way ashersky is the best lynch for the day
#15 - responds to Robz's ashersky defense asking when ashersky was most recently scum
#16 - asks specifically which game Robz's is talking about (it was Mean Girls); [unvotes ashersky]
#17 - awards a +1 to Eevee for pointing out Robz's contradiction that ashersky being awesome at scum makes him easy to catch
#18 - defends the idea that town needs to consider the information garnered from a lynch and how much it hurts/helps town, not just the scumminess of the lynchee
#19 - responds to ashersky's problems with the plan; defends the plan
#21 - defends plan
#22 - defends plan
#23 - defends plan
#24 - defends plan
#25 - admits that even as scum, if he felt the plan was best for town, he's push it
#26 - First post in 3 days, admits lurking and blames RL
#27 - one liner
#28 - Mega Post: asks why he didn't get more heat for lurking; hedges on chairs; still thinks ashersky is the best lynch; prefers Voltaire to chairs; provides a case on Voltaire; [votes: Voltaire]
#29 - further points on Voltaire, admits it is not a strong read and apologizes to Voltaire
#30 - says he would switch to avoid a no-lynch
D1 Twilight
#31 - says it is dumb of Voltaire to lie given it is twilight (in regards to his role)
#32 - says Robz and liopoil are scummy for trying to "seem like they thought Voltaire was scum"
D2
#33 - says he is "down" with the nkirbit lynch, does NOT VOTE
#34 - responds directly to nkirbit when he says "if you are going to lynch me anyway, don't wait three days" by saying "I agree" and [votes: nkirbit]
#35 - one liner
D2 Twilight
#36 - to ashersky, says it looks like the plan worked, asks if ashersky is the remaining PR, he needs to think about telling everyone
#37 - says nkirbit is telling his scum buddies to kill ashersky
D3
#38 - asks if understanding the plan is towny or scummy (note, he capitalized the "T" in towny. Code?)
#39 - points out TA's scumslip, [votes: TA]
#40 - adds that for the record, he favors NL because it gives the PR another shot to investigate and the NK reduces the number of mislynch possibilities
#41 - corrects ashersky on mylo/lylo calculations
#42 - agrees w/ash in principle on lynching scum being preferred
#43 - [votes: no lynch]
#44 - responds to TA that the scumslip looked real
#45 - talks about bussing/wagon analysis, mentions Bankers
#46 - points out that the ashersky self voting trend is actually smart play, given it doesn't lead to mislynches
#47 - thinks the middle of town reads is where scum ends up
#48 - explains the merits of No Lynch
#49 - explains the merits of No Lynch
#50 - responds to ashersky that there is "no need" to hide things from scum that are obvious
#51 - responds to raerae agreeing there is no hurry
#52 - says TA-Ash is not scum v scum
#53 - disagrees with mcmc defense of ashersky
#54 - one liner
#55 - one liner ("Crap" in response to TA claim)
#56 - explains the merits of No Lynch
#57 - gives lylo/mylo numbers
#58 - corrects chairs in that we only have one mislynch, not two
#59 - explains the merits of No Lynch
#60 - asks why TA isn't pushing No Lynch if he's really the PR
#61 - agrees that psychologist sucks, asks why TA told us
#62 - believes TA on why he full claimed
#63 - says Eevee makes sense
#64 - one liner
#65 - explains the merits of No Lynch
#66 - quotes #63
D3 Twilight
#67 - one liner (hurray after ashersky hammers No Lynch)
#68 - asks why ashersky thinks it is important that TA did not support No Lynch
#69 - quotes #63, changes Eevee to mcmc
D4
#70 - asks for counterclaims, believes TA until then
#71 - no point in assuming TA is lying
#72 - suggests possibly leaving lio/TA alive and hunting the partner; reason being scum will keep the real PR alive to not out the fakeclaimer
#73 - points out how lio is wrong when lio claims non-zero chance of lio/TA team
#74 - says lio-ash is unlikely given how they looked like a team in thread
#75 - unsure still
#76 - psychologist "blunder" by TA was legit if he was at L-1
#77 - responds to chairs's assertion that we should lynch TA; says only if TA is right about ash
#78 - suspects chairs based on last two posts
D5
#79 - [votes: liopoil]
D5 Twilight
#80 - believes twilight talk only helps scum
D6
#81 - says busy IRL, [votes: no lynch]
D7
#82 - notes we have 10 days, all need to re-read, no need to use 10 full days
#83 - will re-read
-
Jimmmmm votes summary:
D1: ashersky, unvote, voltaire
D2: nkirbit
D3: TA, No Lynch
D4: no one (TA mislynched without him)
D5: liopoil
D6: No Lynch
-
Jimmmmm votes summary:
D1: ashersky, unvote, voltaire
D2: nkirbit
D3: TA, No Lynch
D4: no one (TA mislynched without him)
D5: liopoil
D6: No Lynch
Bolded names above were the lynch that day.
Quick scan shows Jimmmmm was on both scum lynches, both No Lynches, and the D1 mislynch. He avoided the TA mislynch.
One specific vote count I want to point out in regards to Jimmmmm is 3.9. Here's what we had at 3.9:
No Lynch at L-1 (Jimmmmm and 3 Townies)
TA at L-2 (lio, ash, raerae)
ashersky at 1 vote (TA)
I eventually hammered No Lynch. We know that liopoil faked his softclaim and pushed the TA lynch. In the face of that (I admit) No Lynch was still the correct course of action, as it was the best thing to do for town. TA was convinced on me, but he turned out to be town, too. I know I am town.
Does scum raerae support lio in that endeavor? Or does scum Jimmmmm distance himself? I think both things should be thought about.
-
Hey guys, I lied, I won't reread tonight. I'll start it up tomorrow. Going to go spend some QT with my fellow household inhabitants now though.
-
And now for raerae. 111 posts, 6 pre-game. Same deal. (One note: raerae's town meta is to ask a lot of questions.)
D1
#1 - proclaims no claiming!
#2 - says theory is bad, Hider needs to decide on his own
#3 - anti plan
#4 - okay with new plan, let's stop talking about it and scumhunt. Asks Voltaire to explain his read on UoS.
#5 - asks liopoil why he wants his plan over nkirbit or snow's.
#6 - asks for plan clarification
#7 - says we should stop discussing vig vs. tracker
#8 - Replies to UoS; theory talk is not helpful for scumhunting
#9 - [votes: UoS] for more theory talk and an overreaction to raerae's post
#10 - Asks shraeye to explain his suspicion of liopoil
#11 - Calls out Eevee for only having one post
#12 - [votes: liopoil] for theory talk, bad plans; mentions her UoS vote was for emphasis since he's new
#13 - yells at ashersky about being anti-town, etc.
#14 - points out a contradiction in liopoil's post about UoS
#15 - asks for the case on ashersky, says this is town ashersky
#16 - Gives a reads post which mentions UoS, Robz, Eevee, mcmc, shraeye, Voltaire. Does not mention either scum. Says she will reread lio, eevee, chairs, or volt)
#17 - drunkish (buzzed), agrees with Robz about a scummy bit of a chairs post
#18 - one liner
#19 - Asks chairs why ashersky is ALMOST the best D1 lynch.
#20 - Posts her chairs reread, builts a case on chairs, [unvotes: liopoil]
#21 - VLA annoucement
#22 - liopoil reread: short, gives him a few town points, says he's not too scummy, ends up nullish town on him
#23 - asks mcmc to explain his reads
#24 - one liner
#25 - asks Volt for an explanation of one line in a post
#26 - scolds UoS for answer on Volt's behalf
#27 - one liner
#28 - says would vote for chairs, but [votes: Eevee] for undercontributing
#29 - responds to ash's call for stronger reads, says would vote chairs, add mcmc to the would vote list for not providing explanations of his reads as requested
#30 - one liner @ Volt
#31 - replies to UoS, explains that revotes for emphasis have no bearing on alignment (funny, because she does this later in the game)
#32 - edits earlier post for typo
#33 - Thinks Volt is misrepresenting or misreading her.
#34 - argues with Volt
#35 - argues with Volt
#36 - Blows off the Volt re-read. Says strong scum read on chairs, less strong on mcmc, still thinks Eevee needs to start contributing, has lingering bad feelings on volt and liopoil.
#37 - one liner @ UoS
#38 - [votes: chairs] with no other text
#39 - Asks shraeye why her chairs case is wrong when it is similar to his Volt case
#40 - Notes a possible scummy TApost
#41 - calls out shraeye to contribute
#42 - Gives a D1 reads list; important ones to note: lio is not scumlio and nkirbit is null
#43 - called out by mcmc for having only 1 scum read and a bunch of null reads, raerae has a sarcastic response (normal)
#44 - TAagrees with mcmc, raerae has an agressive response (normal)
#45 - replies to ash, asks for reasons to switch to mcmc wagon
#46 - continues TAargument
#47 - continues TAargument, calls him out on tunneling ash and not having any other strong reads, which is basically what he accused her of (only with chairs as the tunnel target)
#48 - quotes her own chairs case
#49 - asks when the deadline is
#50 - one liner @ mcmc
D1 Twilight
#51 - agrees with mcmc
D2
#52 - confirms Hider plan hits nkirbit if UoS followed it, [votes: nkirbit]
#53 - posts a count to show how the plan should have worked
#54 - [unvotes: nkirbit] when Robz suggests there could have been confusion
#55 - asks for TA to quote UoS's agreement
#56 - thanks ash for pointing out who had the problems argument on D1
#57 - quotes the ash D1 post about the plan, also quotes UoS's agreement; thinks nkirbit is guilty, states intent to vote
#58 - responds to the "just lynch me now" nkirbit post with "why not start scumhunting now"
#59 - intent to hammer
#60 - complains ashersky stole her first hammer
D3:
#61 - asks why being cautious is scummy (about D2 lynch). Suspicious of people who voted without comment on D2.
#62 - Asks TA why he thinks chairs's position on the nkirbit wagon makes him town
#63 - asks about no lynch
#64 - VLA comment, wants to wait on no lynch to get some D3 content
#65 - IRL excuse for no posts, tells ashersky and TAto stop yelling at each other
#66 - thoughts/reads: relevant is that she finds liopoil towny for suggesting no lynch early
#67 - IRL salad
#68 - IRL excuse again, needs more time. Yells at lio for him calling raerae "in the background" and defends her own towniness by stating she defended ash on D1 like Robz did, created the original chairs case, and ensured D3 had content
#69 - angry at Eevee for the same thing, says she saved D3
#70 - TAreread and presents a case for TAbeing scum; [votes: TA]
#71 - IRL burned hand
#72 - Quotes a TApost where she says he slipped and knew she was town
#73 - one liner
#74 - one liner
#75 - says TA is caught, different than Pirates
#76 - Drunk Post regarding TA being scummy
#77 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#78 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#79 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy; claims TAknew UoS was the Hider and could figure out who he hid behind before it even happened
#80 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#81 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#82 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#83 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#84 - Drunk Post regarding TAbeing scummy
#85 - Drunk Post regarding TA being scummy; revotes TAfor emphasis!
D4:
#86 - 2 questions before voting: 1st is who did TAinvestigate
#87 - 2nd is why didn't TAinvestigate ash
#88 - presses TAabout not investigating ash
#89 - doesn't understand TA's reasoning on night actions
#90 - keeps pressing TA
#91 - [votes: TA]
D4 Twilight
#92 - says there is no need for reads posts in twilight because no one reads them
D5
#93 - [votes: liopoil]; asks him why he bothered to counterclaim instead of just NKing him
D6
#94 - Questions for three remaining: why was chairs in a hurry to hammer; why did ash change his read on jimmmmm; why is jimmmmm lurking
#95 - presses ash about the Jimmmmm thing
#96 - see no benefit or harm in flavor name claiming
#97 - says she is working on her reads, still wants chairs to talk about hammering
#98 - argues with chairs
#99 - one liner
#100 - gives reads on the three remaining (doesn't like ash's change on Jimmmmm; why is chairs still alive as claimed VT?; Jimmmmm is lurking fabulously)
#101 - asks ash for a post # for his reads and an explanation of no-lynch/Happily Ever After
#102 - states intent to hammer
#103 - [votes: no lynch]
D7
#104 - says will reread, agrees no voting yet
#105 - says won't reread until tomorrow
-
raerae voting history:
D1: UoS, liopoil, unvotes liopoil, Eevee, chairs
D2: nkirbit, unvotes nkirbit
D3: TA
D4: TA
D5: liopoil
D6: No Lynch
Those last three are all lynch wagons with raerae aboard. Nkirbit was lynched D2, but raerae was not able to get back on (I stole the hammer).
-
ash, the fact that you're greening your name is suspicious. You would normally give unbiased summaries in situations like this.
-
A few notes on raerae, after re-read. This was my first reread of her, and first time seriously contemplating her to be scum.
In retrospect, she looks bad on D1. Classic early day bus on a partner (liopoil) reined in with an unvote and later town read. A null mention and nothing else on the other partner. If she's scum, that's a par D1 there.
D2 she unvotes due to "caution" which can go either way. Important to note, though.
D3 she presses TA as hard as I do. D4 lynches him. Any argument against raerae there applies to me. We reacted differently to liopoil's claim, which I basically called for at one point.
D5-D7 is nullish.
-
ash, the fact that you're greening your name is suspicious. You would normally give unbiased summaries in situations like this.
In lylo? I disagree. I did NOT green my name in the liopoil re-read, as there were more people alive.
These re-reads are for me to decide who to lynch. The liopoil re-read was for survivors to use in the case of my death.
At this point, I have to find my one town partner among the two of you. Each of you will state the same. I expect any argument from both of you to assume you are town. You should expect the same from me.
-
It took me an hour and a half to get home today. shraeye invited people over tonight. I didn't get a reread done. Assuming Georgians aren't idiots (ASS.U.ME) I'll be home around 7 p.m. tomorrow and will reread then. Sorry guys.
Jimmmmm...it appears you haven't had good reread luck either? Or just waiting to see what we say?
-
Jimmmmm/raerae, any reads to present?
I think I'm ready to vote.
-
Okay, but more recently than Bankers (which was Mafia XXII, not XXIV, I misspoke) he WAS scum in Mafia something-or-other, along with Eevee and yuma. Ash was NOT crazy. He was highly rational and awesomely devious. He fake claimed a scum result on the town Jailkeeper and got him lynched Day 2. I would expect to see that sort of ash here, not suicidal ash.
Hmm. Do you know off the top of your head what game that was? I might have a look over it at some point. For now, unvote.
Jimmmm, did you ever review Mean Girls?
-
Jimmmmm/raerae, any reads to present?
I think I'm ready to vote.
Ready to vote without giving that person a chance to respond to any case against them?
-
raerae voting history:
D1: UoS, liopoil, unvotes liopoil, Eevee, chairs
D2: nkirbit, unvotes nkirbit
D3: TA
D4: TA
D5: liopoil
D6: No Lynch
Those last three are all lynch wagons with raerae aboard. Nkirbit was lynched D2, but raerae was not able to get back on (I stole the hammer).
Ash, why point this out when you were on every lynch except Lio's?
-
Jimmmmm/raerae, any reads to present?
I think I'm ready to vote.
Ready to vote without giving that person a chance to respond to any case against them?
No. But signaling intent to make a move. Niether of you are doing a thing. You've posting excuses. I get it, real life. But at some point, we'll have to move on either way. Hopefully knowing that I, at least, have gotten to a point where I'm ready to take action, will spur you both into action as well.
I would love to has stuff to respond to, cases/points/questions/etc. to help all of us. Without it, I'll make the call based only on what I've picked up.
-
raerae voting history:
D1: UoS, liopoil, unvotes liopoil, Eevee, chairs
D2: nkirbit, unvotes nkirbit
D3: TA
D4: TA
D5: liopoil
D6: No Lynch
Those last three are all lynch wagons with raerae aboard. Nkirbit was lynched D2, but raerae was not able to get back on (I stole the hammer).
Ash, why point this out when you were on every lynch except Lio's?
I'm pointing out everyone's voting history. I assume you all will point out mine. I think it is just information to note. Wagons, voting, etc. All part of the big picture.
The only thing interesting from your wagons is your D1 voting, to me. D2-D6 are as expected.
-
Dude, keep your pants on and let's get this right, no need to rush. I understand you don't want to stall out but we can't push this carelessly.
-
Dude, keep your pants on and let's get this right, no need to rush. I understand you don't want to stall out but we can't push this carelessly.
You are posting now, aren't you? It worked to get at least one person back on track.
-
Dude, keep your pants on and let's get this right, no need to rush. I understand you don't want to stall out but we can't push this carelessly.
You are posting now, aren't you? It worked to get at least one person back on track.
Don't give yourself that much credit; I was rereading while you were threatening to vote and certainly couldn't let that nonsense happen.
-
Wagonalysis!
D1: So, cool thing about having two large wagons is that everybody was voting. Ash had the hammer and Jimmmmm was in safety position. To ash's benefit, he did appear to weigh the options prior to voting.
Voltaire(7): shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, Robz, ashersky
chairs (6): nkirbit, Voltaire, Eevee, raerae, liopoil, Snow (L-1)
D2: Obviously scum will want to be on this lynch and won't want to fight it. Again, Jimmmmm had a safety position on wagon and ash hammer stole, attempt to gain towncred?
nkirbit (6): Twistedarcher, liopoil, chairs, Jimmmmm, Robz888, ashersky
Not voting: raerae, mcmcsalot, nkirbit, Eevee
D3: So I don't really understand No Lynch benefits so I don't know what to say about this. Obviously Ash and I look bad for voting for a townie but I don't know what Jimmmmmm looks like for voting for a No Lynch.
No lynch: (5) Jimmmmmm, mcmc, Eevee, chairs, ashersky
TA: (3) ashersky, raerae, liopoil (L-2)
ashersky: (1) TA
D4: Again, Ash and I look bad for voting for a townie but I think Jimmmmmm looks bad for staying away too. Seems, again, like a safety position.
Twistedarcher (4): ashersky, liopoil, mcmc, raerae
liopoil (1): Twistedarcher
Not Voting: (2) Jimmmm, chairs
D5: So obviously lio was going down here, nobody fought it and nobody was going to even if we had all been around at the same time. I don't think we can get much from this.
liopoil (3): Jimmmmm, raerae, chairs
Not voting (2): ashersky, liopoil
D6: We No Lynched, again, I don't know what that means.
D7: Dun, dun, daaaaaaaaaaaaa. (That was dramatic music)
-
Patiently awaiting your thoughts on life, Jimmmmmm.
-
Ah my thoughts on life. This is one of many things on my to-do list.
My first thoughts are that the obvious choice is ash. If I remember correctly, he vehemently defended liopoil against Twisted. My second thought is would scum ash really team up with his partner as much as he did? My third thought is that maybe he would, knowing that people would doubt whether he would do that as scum, and then it's just a big ball of WIFOM. Time to start those long-awaited re-reads.
-
Ah my thoughts on life. This is one of many things on my to-do list.
My first thoughts are that the obvious choice is ash. If I remember correctly, he vehemently defended liopoil against Twisted. My second thought is would scum ash really team up with his partner as much as he did? My third thought is that maybe he would, knowing that people would doubt whether he would do that as scum, and then it's just a big ball of WIFOM. Time to start those long-awaited re-reads.
If you could find my "vehement defense" of liopoil, I'd be interested in reading it.
I absolutely admit that I believed liopoil over TA. But, I don't think there was ever a time when liopoil even needed defending.
I will say that I (and raerae to an extent) tied myself to liopoil at some point, by taking his side over TA. You, for example, took TA's side.
Which side is scum more likely to land on? The side of the partner that is lying, or the side of the real one that they know is telling the truth?
-
Bedtime for now. I'll be back tomorrow evening. What's the proper protocol here? Post a case and intent to vote same as always?
-
Bedtime for now. I'll be back tomorrow evening. What's the proper protocol here? Post a case and intent to vote same as always?
I believe we all post our findings from re-reads. Once Jimmmmm gets his bits, we'll all post our cases on each other. Then we can all state intent and see where that puts us.
-
If you could find my "vehement defense" of liopoil, I'd be interested in reading it.
That was just off the top of my head. I remember you being very much on lio's side and against TA, so much so that you were willing to lynch TA without a counterclaim. I'll have a better memory for things after I've finished my re-read.
Which side is scum more likely to land on? The side of the partner that is lying, or the side of the real one that they know is telling the truth?
The side that he thinks Townies will think he won't land on.
-
Okay, so ash's early Day 1 was characterised by strong opposition to a good plan. It also happened to be a plan that worked, but that's not really as relevant as the fact that it was a good plan. The way that he opposed it actually caused there to be more discussion and confusion about it, and there was a part of it that he claimed not to understand, but instead of clarifying it, he basically said, "It's a bad plan because it's unclear". There are three possibilities that could explain ash's behaviour:
1) He's Town and he thought it was a bad plan, and he was frustrated with others for pursuing it.
2) He's scum and he thought it was a bad plan, and he argued against it because he thought that's what he'd do if he was Town.
3) He's scum and he knew it was a good plan, and so he argued against it and added to the confusion.
My scum reads from 100% scum to 0% scum:
mcmcsalot > Jimmmmm > Eevee > everyone > raerae > shraeye > Robz > ashersky
Some scumreads from ash. If he is scum, he mentioned neither of his partners.
Any plan which chooses a kill target and depends on the full and understandable participation of town players is doomed to fail.
This is mostly just funny because it didn't fail.
In that game, I had a plan. It would have caught scum, it turns out, although we couldn't know that at the time. Everyone lambasted it, told me how bad it was for town. I fought for the plan. We got steamrolled by mafia.
Now, given that experience, I've always been super aware of the possibility of plans and such.
This is interesting, I think. It supports 3) above. If it's true that ash is super aware of plans, he would have read the setup pre-game regardless of alignment and thought about what plans could be made. He must have had some inkling of the possibility of the Hider plan.
Let me ask you, and all your planners out there:
If there was such a plan out there for Hiders that it allows Town to just catch scum like that, why isn't it common knowledge, and why are Hiders allowed in games?
I mean, Cops catch scum right? Trackers/Watchers catch scum. But even then, it's not 100%. Mean Girls, I track mcmc, catch scum. Whoops, nope, I lied.
So now, you think you have this plan where you can just auto-lynch someone based on a numbering system that is inherently flawed (due to being undefined) and boom scumdeadbebopboop. But it doesn't work that way. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY.
Says the plan is undefined without saying how it's undefined. The only possible result of this is extended discussion on the plan.
scumdeadbebopboop yes it does.
I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum. I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective. I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).
Suddenly the plan that was "doomed to fail" might actually work, and he says this as if that's been his opinion all along. He also talks as if scum could easily mess the plan up, or the Hider would have to be awesome in order for it to work, suggesting that it's more complicated and confusing than it actually is.
I think there are very few scum that would fight against something that (to many of you) is clearly "pro-town."
This, I think, is a very good description of ash's Day 1 plan if he's scum.
UoS, I agree that mcmcsalot or Robz would be good lynches.
I prefer mcmcsalot, though.
You and I could put Voltaire to L-1 right now if we wanted. Not saying we should, just that we could.
I have the following popsquiz:
Want to lynch: mcmc, Robz, TA, Volt
Would lynch: Eevee, liopoil, chairs, nkirbit, Jimmmmm
Won't lynch: me, UoS, raerae, shraeye
Again, if scum, he's named both partners in the middle category.
Robz, scum lio posts more. Scum lio is hyper-sensitive to being caught lurking. Lurking and sheeping is just lio.
First significant mention of lio. Dismisses him as not being scum lio, but is still in ash's "would lynch" category.
Unless we're able to get Volt to L-1, nothing is going to happen anyway.
Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy. I mean, horribly scummy. Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.
The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now? There's no shame in switching to Volt here.
Nkirbit, had you voted for mcmc after UoS, we'd have had 3 on him. That's momentum. You killed that momentum and got UoS to revote the towny. FOS at both of you for that.
This is a very manipulative post.
-
Guys, this game should be f.ds priority for you guys. Finishing this frees us all up. My fellow townie and I have a 50/50 chance. I know I'm not confident yet...
-
No. My job and my home life take priority always.
Why aren't you certain now? You were just read to vote.
-
Jimmmmmm, when we lynched TA were you not around or did you choose not to participate?
-
No. My job and my home life take priority always.
Why aren't you certain now? You were just read to vote.
Ready to vote and certain are different things.
I think one of you two is scummier than the other. Doesn't mean I'm right.
Also, neither your job or your home are part of f.ds, so they don't factor into:
Guys, this game should be f.ds priority for you guys.
-
Certain enough to vote seems pretty damn certain at this point.
Also, I realized I misread the priority thing. Sorry for jumping.
Ash, have you seen this sort of Jimmmmm before?
-
Certain enough to vote seems pretty damn certain at this point.
Also, I realized I misread the priority thing. Sorry for jumping.
Ash, have you seen this sort of Jimmmmm before?
Generally, lurking Jimmmmm is town Jimmmmm.
And then, there is Harry Potter.
I am thinking of Bankers Beware Jimmmmm, where he was town, as compared to LOTR1, where he was scum; and they ran concurrently. He lurked in Bankers.
-
I haven't been following...he is scum or town in HP? (I think that's still on-going so if this isn't a kosher question obviously disregard.)
-
I haven't been following...he is scum or town in HP? (I think that's still on-going so if this isn't a kosher question obviously disregard.)
Game ended. He was scum.
The funny thing was, he had HUGE towncred for hammering his own roleblocker partner on D1, then his other partner on D2. Except, well, that doesn't really work as a strategy.
He lurked for parts of that game. In the Scum QT, he posited "I wonder if I can convince everyone that lurking means I'm towny."
-
Waiting for Jimmmmm to answer then I think I'm ready to go.
-
Jimmmmm, this isn't the best time to lurk.
-
So, do I follow the facts of the cases, or my gut read? It's tough to know.
-
The funny thing was, he had HUGE towncred for hammering his own roleblocker partner on D1, then his other partner on D2. Except, well, that doesn't really work as a strategy.
I disagree. I think both of the lynches would have gone through without me. It just so happened that the wrong person was the Roleblocker, and there was an unforeseen game-breaking strategy. Otherwise I think I would have had a reasonable chance - it only takes one. Anyway, maybe that's for the theory thread.
I should let you know I'm at work at the moment. It's not looking like it'll be too busy, so I should be able to post now and then, but I probably won't be able to do any more re-reading at this stage. I also have uni and work tomorrow and work on both Saturday and Sunday, so I'll try my best to find time to make time to try to figure this out.
-
In a straight vanilla game, it probably works.
As far as this game goes, though, you haven't built up towncred, which is generally in your favor, I think. I expect townier actions from scummier Jimmmmm.
-
You both seem to be stalling your reads/cases/whatever a bit so I'll just get this ball rolling.
Ash is scum.
So the D1 antics worked perfectly. Most of the vets were against that hellacious play but attribute that sort of insanity to town Ash. Yes, he got dangerously close to a lynch but it would have looked a million times worse if he'd done a 180 and started being helpful right away so he had to roll with it (knowing Robz and I were on his side, along with his partners, was probably reassuring). Now, specifically regarding the hider plan, I actually thought that since he is such a plan person and was resisting the plan and everything it stood for, that he was not just town but the hider and was breadcrumbing all along. Wrong, but now it appears that was trying to set up a fake-claim or trying to out the hider by gauging reactions. I know from modding Mean Girls that Ash loves him some breadcrumbs and fake claims. nom nom nom
So, moving right along, D2 bounces along and we've got dead townies all over the place. Conveniently though, we also have a scum just waiting to be dead. Now Ash swoops in, sarcasm ablaze, not to verify that the plan worked but to try to cast doubt on the plan and redirect to Robz. Add to that a role-fishing, threat-throwing, guilt-tripping post and a an unexpected hammer and you've got one heckova D2 on your hands.
D3 was Epic Battle I with TA, neither side won but lio hinted his face off re: a PR.
D4 lio counter-claimed and ash was oddly quiet on the matter, only found one post of support for lio. Makes sense, don't want to warm fuzzy up your partner too much.
I feel like my day count is off, is there a no-lynch I'm missing? Anyway, day count aside, those things happened together. Then we had really quick and useless days.
So yesterday (or during twilight or something) Ash gives reads and leans heavily on Jimmmmm being scum. I give reads and they purposely pointed out scuminess in everybody and didn't favor one over another. I figured I would be kept alive because those reads are very non-committal. Now, I wasn't really sold on anything until ash pointed out Jimmmmmm's quote from HP. Jimmmmmmm wouldn't have said that if he weren't town in this game. You can't try to convince somebody of a meta before it's established so he has to be town here.
Now, Ash could see that I wasn't buying into a Jimmmm lynch so he's decided to shoot for me and has been hinting around at it for a while now. You'll note, he's been pressuring Jimmmmm and I for reads without providing any of his own. He's waiting for one of us to make a move so he can pounce on it. Done.
Intent to vote
-
I provided plenty. It's up to Jimmmmm clearly, but your actions say scum to me.
Look, one of you two is scum. You had to decide which player you were more likely to sway. Raerae thought she saw me leaning scum on her, so she made her choice.
I'd still like to see what Jimmmmm is thinking, as actions on this day are going to be telling.
-
But you never took a stance. You painted both of us with the same could be scum could town brush. Still haven't taken a stance, as a matter of fact. Waiting for Jimmmmmm to cast the first vote so you can hammer for, like, the 5th time this game?
-
A few notes on raerae, after re-read. This was my first reread of her, and first time seriously contemplating her to be scum.
In retrospect, she looks bad on D1. Classic early day bus on a partner (liopoil) reined in with an unvote and later town read. A null mention and nothing else on the other partner. If she's scum, that's a par D1 there.
D2 she unvotes due to "caution" which can go either way. Important to note, though.
D3 she presses TA as hard as I do. D4 lynches him. Any argument against raerae there applies to me. We reacted differently to liopoil's claim, which I basically called for at one point.
D5-D7 is nullish.
Here's my stance on raerae, as it is.
I think that D1 raerae is very scummy. Just, very much so. She has otherwise been mostly town!raerae as I have come to expect.
I think that things against Jimmmmm have to do with liopoil's actions/posts more than his own actions. I'm thinking about LOTR Dragon Jimmmmm while sitting here in lylo with him as possible scum. In that game, he was basically an IC through great PR use. Here is different. He's lurked a bunch. But overall, I see a lot of pro-town stuff he didn't have to do as scum.
He corrected both me AND chairs when we were incorrect about mylo/lylo calculations. Those are things that probably wouldn't have been picked up on, and possible could have helped scum just a bit. He pressed the right lynches at the right time. He pressed No Lynch at the right times.
I still go back to Vote 3.9. Lio fakeclaims. He has one partner alive. We have me/lio/raerae on TA. Jimmmmm is on No Lynch and not moving. If we mislynch TA there, scum has a night kill, then a lio lynch, then a night kill. Is that better for the scum team?
It is a tough call to make.
-
But you never took a stance. You painted both of us with the same could be scum could town brush. Still haven't taken a stance, as a matter of fact. Waiting for Jimmmmmm to cast the first vote so you can hammer for, like, the 5th time this game?
The only way I hammer this day is if you and Jimmmmm vote for each other and I have to make that choice.
-
vote: raerae
Just re-read some stuff. Sorry if I chose wrong, but I'm pretty sure Jimmmmm is town now.
-
Going to bed now.
Vote: ashersky
-
Noted.
-
Noted.
I'm glad I was right.
-
If you recall LoTR I you'll remember that I delayed the game end a little as scum. I've since realised what a selfish, douchey thing that is to do, so this isn't that.
-
If you recall LoTR I you'll remember that I delayed the game end a little as scum. I've since realised what a selfish, douchey thing that is to do, so this isn't that.
I absolutely recall it, and was thinking that exact thing. That's how I know (or at least am as sure as possible) that you are not scum here. You would have hammer someone to win.
-
Okay. Congrats to my fellow Townie for picking correctly. Alas, due to work commitments etc I will not be able to make this decision for a few days. I will do my best to have a hammer on Monday or Tuesday. The Townie, now that s/he knows for sure the other is scum, has until then to convince me. I am leaning a particular way, which I will not disclose right now.
-
And now for raerae. 111 posts, 6 pre-game. Same deal. (One note: raerae's town meta is to ask a lot of questions.)
D1
#1 - proclaims no claiming!
#2 - says theory is bad, Hider needs to decide on his own
#3 - anti plan
#4 - okay with new plan, let's stop talking about it and scumhunt. Asks Voltaire to explain his read on UoS.
#5 - asks liopoil why he wants his plan over nkirbit or snow's.
#6 - asks for plan clarification
#7 - says we should stop discussing vig vs. tracker
#8 - Replies to UoS; theory talk is not helpful for scumhunting
#9 - [votes: UoS] for more theory talk and an overreaction to raerae's post
#10 - Asks shraeye to explain his suspicion of liopoil
#11 - Calls out Eevee for only having one post
#12 - [votes: liopoil] for theory talk, bad plans; mentions her UoS vote was for emphasis since he's new
#13 - yells at ashersky about being anti-town, etc.
#14 - points out a contradiction in liopoil's post about UoS
#15 - asks for the case on ashersky, says this is town ashersky
#16 - Gives a reads post which mentions UoS, Robz, Eevee, mcmc, shraeye, Voltaire. Does not mention either scum. Says she will reread lio, eevee, chairs, or volt)
#17 - drunkish (buzzed), agrees with Robz about a scummy bit of a chairs post
#18 - one liner
#19 - Asks chairs why ashersky is ALMOST the best D1 lynch.
#20 - Posts her chairs reread, builts a case on chairs, [unvotes: liopoil]
#21 - VLA annoucement
#22 - liopoil reread: short, gives him a few town points, says he's not too scummy, ends up nullish town on him
#23 - asks mcmc to explain his reads
#24 - one liner
#25 - asks Volt for an explanation of one line in a post
#26 - scolds UoS for answer on Volt's behalf
#27 - one liner
#28 - says would vote for chairs, but [votes: Eevee] for undercontributing
#29 - responds to ash's call for stronger reads, says would vote chairs, add mcmc to the would vote list for not providing explanations of his reads as requested
#30 - one liner @ Volt
#31 - replies to UoS, explains that revotes for emphasis have no bearing on alignment (funny, because she does this later in the game)
#32 - edits earlier post for typo
#33 - Thinks Volt is misrepresenting or misreading her.
#34 - argues with Volt
#35 - argues with Volt
#36 - Blows off the Volt re-read. Says strong scum read on chairs, less strong on mcmc, still thinks Eevee needs to start contributing, has lingering bad feelings on volt and liopoil.
#37 - one liner @ UoS
#38 - [votes: chairs] with no other text
#39 - Asks shraeye why her chairs case is wrong when it is similar to his Volt case
#40 - Notes a possible scummy TApost
#41 - calls out shraeye to contribute
#42 - Gives a D1 reads list; important ones to note: lio is not scumlio and nkirbit is null
#43 - called out by mcmc for having only 1 scum read and a bunch of null reads, raerae has a sarcastic response (normal)
#44 - TAagrees with mcmc, raerae has an agressive response (normal)
#45 - replies to ash, asks for reasons to switch to mcmc wagon
#46 - continues TAargument
#47 - continues TAargument, calls him out on tunneling ash and not having any other strong reads, which is basically what he accused her of (only with chairs as the tunnel target)
#48 - quotes her own chairs case
#49 - asks when the deadline is
#50 - one liner @ mcmc
D1 Twilight
#51 - agrees with mcmc
This is the D1 portion of my re-read on raerae, and the largest part of why I settled on her as scum. I believe much of what we see here connects her to the scum team.
Her interactions with liopoil are most damning. The early press/vote on him, followed by backing off and then town read, read as early D1 partner bussing. Her chairs tunnel, which lasted until D6 basically, wasn't helping anyone, and definitely wasn't helping town, as it took away from actual scumhunting when it was all but accepted that he was town. She was against the plan from the beginning, but switched to being okay with it pretty quickly when she saw it was gaining traction. Only two posts gave reads, both were suspect when it came to where scum ended up (not mentioned, or towny). Lots of interactions with lio (one partner) but very, very few with nkirbit (the other) -- also something you expect from scum teams.
I think raerae's interactions/reads with scum, her inconsistency with the plan (and then on D2 unvoting nkirbit when it looked like we might find a way to not be sure), and her town tunnel are all points against her.
Looking at D2, I think you need to take into consideration of the timing/reasoning of her unvote of nkirbit. She raised it on D3 when she asked why "being cautious" was scummy. She was worried about how it looked enough to actually open the next day with it.
On D3, she gives lio more towncred. But her odd fight with TA is what sticks out here. She has this thing where she is convinced that TA somehow knew that UoS was the hider, and that TA knew UoS would hide behind nkirbit due to the plan. That was just odd, and in retrospect was trying to paint TA scummy for something that wasn't there.
D4 doesn't lend much to this. We had all taken sides in the TA/Lio thing.
Her D5 lio vote had a question in it. Null there.
D6, she asks some questions and gives some reads. She gives scum reads to all three living. And now we're here.
D7 -- I think her post on me was scummy. OMGUS of course, fits there, but we're at LYLO and I know I'm town. I'm the easy one to build a case on, anyway.
I chose to vote for raerae based on the stuff above, and based on multiple Jimmmmm re-reads I decided he was much more likely to be town given how he helped town to the detriment of scum multiple times.
-
Okay. Congrats to my fellow Townie for picking correctly. Alas, due to work commitments etc I will not be able to make this decision for a few days. I will do my best to have a hammer on Monday or Tuesday. The Townie, now that s/he knows for sure the other is scum, has until then to convince me. I am leaning a particular way, which I will not disclose right now.
Anything specific you are looking for? My raerae case is based on scum interactions, a bit on voting pattern, and POE. The way she pushed my read on you on D6 felt to me like she was setting up a situation where she'd want to have you side with her against me.
I would also suggest that vt chairs surviving the entire game, while raerae both tunneled and then was quick to point out the oddness of his survival, is further evidence against raerae.
We can be assured of a bombastic response from raerae when she returns to the thread, of course. I expect angry emotion posts are to come.
-
As an aside, I imagine Yuma and spectators are approving of me deciding based on actions/evidence and not gut reads. I also imagine some wondering why I don't play the entire game this way.
-
Jimmmmm, if you are re-reading D1 at all, I'd ask you to look out for something. During the selfvote fighting around the Hider plan, Eevee and I were going at it at one point pretty vehemently. I asked Eevee specifically to go back and check our fight from Masons and Monks out. I believe it was the beginning of D2 or D3, where I opened the day with "okay, we are going to lynch me, so let's not even bother talking about me and scumhunt elsewhere until then" and Eevee again came at me for that attitude.
I wanted him to go back and read that, because it was a philosophical argument the two of us had about the role of VTs in these games. I didn't quote it, or even go into it, because I figured it would only really make sense to someone who was there for it. Well, you modded that game.
I think that is informative. My rabid support for my own plan there, in the face of so much opposition, mirrors my rabid opposition to the Hider plan. You, as the mod, thought my plan was wrong in MnM. You know that town!ash gets a hold of a firm belief and doesn't let it go. D1 here and D1 there are very similar in that regard.
If you remember, or reread that argument from MnM, I think you'll see what I was talking about. I'm town here, and we can win this game.
-
Vote Count 7.2
<insert flavor>
ashersky: (1) raerae
raerae: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time.
-
Jimmmmm, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have but I just don't see the utility in berating you with my ash case until you're sick of it. You've read us both, you've seen both our arguments, you need to do what you think is best and I don't think ash and I should be a part of that discussion. Please let me know if you have questions.
-
raerae, what do you make of sudgy's #1128?
-
Just to verify...this post from kermit, right?
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
Note how ash here says psychologist, without considering detective.
If we held this to the standards that Ash held EFHW's "scumslip" in Innovation, this definitely looks like a "copslip" to me.. knowing that a psych is in the game, not a detective.
Now, I didn't think EFHW's scumslip was one, and it turns out it wasn't. But this is coming from Ash, who sees slips everywhere.
-
Yep.
-
Oh whoops yeah him.
-
Looks just like trying to get hints on who it is, get somebody to slip something about it, that sort of thing.
-
Just to verify...this post from kermit, right?
So, who should we lynch today, Ash?
It looks like nkirbit is the loser here, no matter what I say. Most of these folks don't trust me anyway.
I think it is important to remember that, if you are wrong about nkirbit, we're at mylo on D3, assuming another death tonight.
We still have the psychologist out there, right? Is that all that's left? With the vig out of the way, I recommend coming forward with the first scum result you get. Only IC someone if they're about to be lynched.
Note how ash here says psychologist, without considering detective.
If we held this to the standards that Ash held EFHW's "scumslip" in Innovation, this definitely looks like a "copslip" to me.. knowing that a psych is in the game, not a detective.
Now, I didn't think EFHW's scumslip was one, and it turns out it wasn't. But this is coming from Ash, who sees slips everywhere.
Jimmmmm, your gut reaction to this post, when it happened, was that he was telling his scum buddies to kill me because of my "PR slip." If I was partners with nkirbit, how does this make any sense? I did "PR slip" because I tried to draw an NK as VT. This interaction draws way to much attention to me to have been talking about a scum buddy.
Raerae's question here is interesting. She asks me who we should lynch. If nkirbit and raerae are thinking I'm the PR, they could be seeing if I know anything yet.
Also, the phrasing: "So, who should we lynch today, Ash?"
Change the second comma to a question mark. Then change lynch to kill. A stretch, but possibly a message to a dying scum buddy. "So, who should we kill today? Ash?" It tracks with nkirbit's reactions.
-
Looks just like trying to get hints on who it is, get somebody to slip something about it, that sort of thing.
By naming a partner?
-
Looks just like trying to get hints on who it is, get somebody to slip something about it, that sort of thing.
By naming a partner?
Well, ash saying something about being the PR and kermit runs with it hoping the real PR will object or say something to tip them off. Obviously TA had half a brain and didn't play to that but you can't blame scum for trying. I mean, if Ash were just a townie why wouldn't scum have killed him based on that? It does look like a PR slip.
-
Also, ash, I hope you warmed up before that stretch. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.
-
Also, ash, I hope you warmed up before that stretch. Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself.
There she is. Because this:
Jimmmmm, I'd be happy to answer any questions you have but I just don't see the utility in berating you with my ash case until you're sick of it. You've read us both, you've seen both our arguments, you need to do what you think is best and I don't think ash and I should be a part of that discussion. Please let me know if you have questions.
Didn't sound like town!raerae at all.
-
Looks just like trying to get hints on who it is, get somebody to slip something about it, that sort of thing.
By naming a partner?
Well, ash saying something about being the PR and kermit runs with it hoping the real PR will object or say something to tip them off. Obviously TA had half a brain and didn't play to that but you can't blame scum for trying. I mean, if Ash were just a townie why wouldn't scum have killed him based on that? It does look like a PR slip.
The only person to say anything was Jimmmmm, who told me to fess up to being the PR/any info I have in case I die.
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
lolwut?
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
lolwut?
I didn't believe TA, and I agreed that he was trying to out the real PR. Lio countered, so he would have been the next lynch if TA wasn't lying.
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
lolwut?
I didn't believe TA, and I agreed that he was trying to out the real PR. Lio countered, so he would have been the next lynch if TA wasn't lying.
You agreed that we should lynch lio then you?
-
Looks just like trying to get hints on who it is, get somebody to slip something about it, that sort of thing.
By naming a partner?
Well, ash saying something about being the PR and kermit runs with it hoping the real PR will object or say something to tip them off. Obviously TA had half a brain and didn't play to that but you can't blame scum for trying. I mean, if Ash were just a townie why wouldn't scum have killed him based on that? It does look like a PR slip.
The reason I am hardly ever the NK (under 30% of all games I play, in fact): because it makes more sense to leave me around for mislynching, given my playstyle.
-
...if TA flipped PR?
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
lolwut?
I didn't believe TA, and I agreed that he was trying to out the real PR. Lio countered, so he would have been the next lynch if TA wasn't lying.
You agreed that we should lynch lio then you?
I agreed that was how it would probably go. I didn't expect to be alive at Lylo though. We went NL-TA-Lio-NL.
I thought it was going to go NL-TA-find last scum. But if TA was telling the truth, he would have been the NK that first night, then we'd lynch lio for counterclaiming softly, then probably me for sucking, then you'd be in lylo without me.
Pretty dumb plan/post if I was scum with lio, no?
-
Jimmmmm, I am not sure which you prefer, or which you find more compelling--for me to give reasons I am the remaining town or reasons raerae is the remaining scum.
As for me being town, I'd mention Masons and Monks again. I played this game a lot like that one. Best example I can give.
I was dead wrong on TA. That sucked. Co-LVPs there, if you end up picking wrong because of my crap play earlier.
I think the evidence is there against raerae, all over D1. That's where you'll find the answers you are looking for.
-
vote: twistedarcher.
I think the claim was premature and designed to out the real PR.
I think if you flip PR, we lynch liopoil and ashersky, probably.
Agreed.
lolwut?
I didn't believe TA, and I agreed that he was trying to out the real PR. Lio countered, so he would have been the next lynch if TA wasn't lying.
You agreed that we should lynch lio then you?
I agreed that was how it would probably go. I didn't expect to be alive at Lylo though. We went NL-TA-Lio-NL.
I thought it was going to go NL-TA-find last scum. But if TA was telling the truth, he would have been the NK that first night, then we'd lynch lio for counterclaiming softly, then probably me for sucking, then you'd be in lylo without me.
Pretty dumb plan/post if I was scum with lio, no?
Well it's dumb either way because getting lynched at lylo with one scum left is a loss for anyone. My thought is, if you were Town you wouldn't want to get lynched if TA was Town. If you were scum you wanted to continue your feigned sureness about TA, planning all along to act surprised and change your mind after he flips.
-
I was so sure, though. No feigning.
-
"If you were scum"
-
ash, in as few words as possible rather than a 9000 word post, why did you change your mind from PoEing me to raerae?
-
SO I've finished a reasonably thorough re-read on ash, which became more of full re-read as the game became quicker and more interesting.
Something I know for sure: if ash is scum and I get this wrong, I will be very annoyed. Also, TA and likely others will have cause to be annoyed with me, because man it's all there. ash has, in my mind, played a very anti-Town game. No offense. I know you agree in part. Opposing and confusing a good Hider plan, advocating lynching our PR even without a counterclaim, opposing the clear choice of a no-lynch. The problem is, this ash, the ash who I spend all game wanting to policy vote turns out to be Town with frustrating frequency.
I'll admit I haven't re-read raerae (say that 7 times fast) yet, but I must say she hasn't been particularly memorable this game. As ash has pointed out, I tend to remember Town raerae.
-
ash, in as few words as possible rather than a 9000 word post, why did you change your mind from PoEing me to raerae?
2 parts to this. Why I abandoned my POE thinking: it was, in the end, based on a scum post. We can't trust any of it, in the end, and we've been burned before. I was letting it overturn my reads, and that was bad. As others pointed out, I had a town read on you. My full reread of you confirmed it, and pointed out firm pro-town moves you don't make as scum. I trusted my gut and the facts over scum wifom.
On raerae, she was mostly not memorable this game, but my reread put it in perspective. Knowing one of you two had to be scum, no way it isn't her. It is clear.
-
SO I've finished a reasonably thorough re-read on ash, which became more of full re-read as the game became quicker and more interesting.
Something I know for sure: if ash is scum and I get this wrong, I will be very annoyed. Also, TA and likely others will have cause to be annoyed with me, because man it's all there. ash has, in my mind, played a very anti-Town game. No offense. I know you agree in part. Opposing and confusing a good Hider plan, advocating lynching our PR even without a counterclaim, opposing the clear choice of a no-lynch. The problem is, this ash, the ash who I spend all game wanting to policy vote turns out to be Town with frustrating frequency.
I'll admit I haven't re-read raerae (say that 7 times fast) yet, but I must say she hasn't been particularly memorable this game. As ash has pointed out, I tend to remember Town raerae.
Jimmmm, two things here, too. First, the oft-quoted: anti-town =/= scum. You know that, though.
More importantly, when it comes to me, I am often accused of being anti-town, but you know I always play with what I believe to be town's best interests in mind. I may disagree with the majority, but I don't roll over. I stick to my guns, even if it paints me as scummy. I was wrong about TA. Haven't been so sure since yuma's last game, where I went head-to-head with Voltgloss, got mislynched, and then it turned out he was town, too.
The raerae reread won't take as long as you think. Looking forward to your thoughts.
-
Jeez, ash, take buddy lessons from Eevee or what?
Jimmmmm, ash is parroting everything you say. I was memorable enough for a vote just a day or two ago but suddenly he can't remember anything? On top of that, his "case" is entirely based on one interaction SIX days ago. Anything he's scraped together since then has been so stretched and manipulated it's difficult to tell where it even started.
Seriously, just do what the crazy man says and reread my D1 but pay special attention to the part that ash hasn't mentioned: the day end wagons. For me to be scum the entire team would have had to have been on one wagon. The wagons were both on town so scum would have had to have split themselves. Scum absolutely need to differentiate themselves to live so it doesn't make sense for all of them to be fighting for the same wagon D1.
Ash is doing to me exactly what he did TA. He's taking every single post and twisting and turning and changing punctuation until it fits his scum narrative of me. I can tear the rest of his BS case to shreds if you want but I've done that before in a similar situation (newbie game) and it did not benefit town. This is your call so take your time and ask your questions but I'm not going to flood you.
-
Jeez, ash, take buddy lessons from Eevee or what?
Jimmmmm, ash is parroting everything you say. I was memorable enough for a vote just a day or two ago but suddenly he can't remember anything? On top of that, his "case" is entirely based on one interaction SIX days ago. Anything he's scraped together since then has been so stretched and manipulated it's difficult to tell where it even started.
Seriously, just do what the crazy man says and reread my D1 but pay special attention to the part that ash hasn't mentioned: the day end wagons. For me to be scum the entire team would have had to have been on one wagon. The wagons were both on town so scum would have had to have split themselves. Scum absolutely need to differentiate themselves to live so it doesn't make sense for all of them to be fighting for the same wagon D1.
Ash is doing to me exactly what he did TA. He's taking every single post and twisting and turning and changing punctuation until it fits his scum narrative of me. I can tear the rest of his BS case to shreds if you want but I've done that before in a similar situation (newbie game) and it did not benefit town. This is your call so take your time and ask your questions but I'm not going to flood you.
I'd like to see you do this. Put work in for the first time, lurker scum.
-
Jimmmmm, ash is parroting everything you say. I was memorable enough for a vote just a day or two ago but suddenly he can't remember anything? On top of that, his "case" is entirely based on one interaction SIX days ago. Anything he's scraped together since then has been so stretched and manipulated it's difficult to tell where it even started.
What can't I remember? I did a full re-read of you, pointed out the scummy and the towny. It's a few pages back, if you want to go read it.
-
This is your call so take your time and ask your questions but I'm not going to flood you.
Translation: I'll keep lurking and being unmemorable, but my excuse is I don't want to "flood you."
Remember, Jimmmmm said town!raerae is memorable. The fact that you are not memorable to him isn't my doing.
-
Seriously, just do what the crazy man says and reread my D1 but pay special attention to the part that ash hasn't mentioned: the day end wagons. For me to be scum the entire team would have had to have been on one wagon. The wagons were both on town so scum would have had to have split themselves. Scum absolutely need to differentiate themselves to live so it doesn't make sense for all of them to be fighting for the same wagon D1.
The day end wagon? Piling on one wagon is a great scum tactic, so that at the end of the game, you can point to the wagon and go "look! I'm on the same wagon with the flipped scum, can't be me!"
Why did scum "need to differentiate themselves to live"? Why are you thinking like scum? Oh right, because you are.
-
Ash, just stop. I'm not going to try to coerce anybody to do anything by constantly spamming the thread until the mere thought of reading another post of mine forces a vote. I think we're done, you and I, I'm only going to talk to Jimmmmm going forward. You keep on working on that spin magic of yours though. I'm sure it'll work out for you sometime soon.
-
Ash, just stop. I'm not going to try to coerce anybody to do anything by constantly spamming the thread until the mere thought of reading another post of mine forces a vote. I think we're done, you and I, I'm only going to talk to Jimmmmm going forward. You keep on working on that spin magic of yours though. I'm sure it'll work out for you sometime soon.
If you were town, no way you'd back down. Where's the raerae fire? Worried you'll slip?
-
I'm willing to fight for this because I do not want to lose. We had a great town showing in Harry Potter; I want a great town comeback win here.
My streak of being the game-ending town mislynch needs to end. It's been a long while since it's happened, and I don't want it to start again now.
-
Jimmmmm?
-
Vote Count 7.3
<insert flavor>
ashersky: (1) raerae
raerae: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time. That is in ~ 9 hours.
-
Jimmmmm, if you don't vote and this hits deadline, scum wins. That is unacceptable man.
-
That's in an hour and a half, or 8 a.m. Australia time.
-
Can we get a prod on Jimmmmm?
-
If we lose this game because Jimmmmm sleeps in and never got around to voting....not going to be happy.
-
Would you allow an extension if both of us agreed?
(Not that raerae would agree. She wins in an hour.)
-
Twistedarcher--we may be supplanted as co-LVPs here by Jimmmmm if we actually lose this not due to a mislynch at lylo but no lynch at lylo.
I didn't think there was anything worse than being mislynched to lose the game. Deadlining out in 35 mins is worse.
-
This is why I was posting and pushing today and raerae kept slow rolling and NOT posting cases or answers or anything.
-
I don't think jimmmmm gets up this early here. He's in uni, right? Not a job? Probably sleeping in...
-
f**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**kf**k
-
Would you allow an extension if both of us agreed?
(Not that raerae would agree. She wins in an hour.)
I will extend to 6:30 pm forum time (~45 minutes from now), since that is technically when day began. So that gives an extra 30 minutes. I don't think I would consider an extension.
-
Would you allow an extension if both of us agreed?
(Not that raerae would agree. She wins in an hour.)
I will extend to 6:30 pm forum time (~45 minutes from now), since that is technically when day began. So that gives an extra 30 minutes. I don't think I would consider an extension.
As a mod, from an objective perspective, no extension is the right call.
As town, from my perspective, we are fucked.
-
Would you allow an extension if both of us agreed?
(Not that raerae would agree. She wins in an hour.)
I will extend to 6:30 pm forum time (~45 minutes from now), since that is technically when day began. So that gives an extra 30 minutes. I don't think I would consider an extension.
And again, to be exact I am going to say 6:24 pm forum time (~ 15 minutes from now). As that is truly the exact time that day7 began. Sorry for the two clarifications
-
Would you allow an extension if both of us agreed?
(Not that raerae would agree. She wins in an hour.)
I will extend to 6:30 pm forum time (~45 minutes from now), since that is technically when day began. So that gives an extra 30 minutes. I don't think I would consider an extension.
And again, to be exact I am going to say 6:24 pm forum time (~ 15 minutes from now). As that is truly the exact time that day7 began. Sorry for the two clarifications
At least you are here...
-
If the remaining scum chose to No Kill on N7, would you allow a D8? Or will you call the game since that's ridiculous?
-
If the remaining scum chose to No Kill on N7, would you allow a D8? Or will you call the game since that's ridiculous?
I'll let you know if it gets to that point
-
If the remaining scum chose to No Kill on N7, would you allow a D8? Or will you call the game since that's ridiculous?
I'll let you know if it gets to that point
raerae, the honorable way to win would be to allow for another day where Jimmmmm could actually vote. Clearly, as scum, it makes more sense for you to just kill if this deadlines out, though.
If you do, please kill me.
-
Can we get a prod on Jimmmmm?
Did this happen? I was thinking maybe an email ding might wake him up or something.
-
Can we get a prod on Jimmmmm?
Did this happen? I was thinking maybe an email ding might wake him up or something.
He was prodded after the request was submitted.
-
Looks like game over.
Congrats scum.
-
Thread Locked
-
Mafia Wins!
ashersky and Jimmmm have been endgamed.
Congrats to raerae (The Cook), liopoil (Yvette the Maid) and nkirbit (Wadsworth the Butler)!
Speccy QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/HSrnhwmTCtU
Mafia QT: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/GkFWVAF8PPiC6
This Tread is Now Open Forever
-
That's not a fun way to end. I wonder who Jimm would have chosen.
-
So, ash...honest question, asked in good faith...how did you think your playstyle this game would help town?
-
I will defend ash here. I don't think he played nearly as crazily as other people claim, and he made himself obviously town, which is a major benefit in the endgame! That Jim squandered unfortunately.
-
I was only watching the end, but man, what a heartbreaker. My condolences ash. Congrats, scum.
-
I will defend ash here. I don't think he played nearly as crazily as other people claim, and he made himself obviously town, which is a major benefit in the endgame! That Jim squandered unfortunately.
He lynched a PR with no chance to claim D1, he staunchly opposed a "broken" pro-town plan, he got into a huge town-v-town fight with the only remaining PR later, and he certainly didn't make himself obvious (in my opinion), and as far as I can tell, in the opinion of most (in-thread and in the spectator thread). Which is why I'm curious for ash's take.
-
well, we won I guess...
-
You know, I don't want to be too hard on Jimm here, because, this is a mistake that gets made. Stuff comes up ad we forget about deadline. there's a lot riding on it so it's terrible, but, well, we've all forgot orders before in one game or another.
The reason why I think it's a fair to be a little hard on him, or harder than if someone else had done this, is he kind of did this once before, in M-XIX. You gotta have better endgame control. These two-week final rounds only help scum, it appears.
-
I will defend ash here. I don't think he played nearly as crazily as other people claim, and he made himself obviously town, which is a major benefit in the endgame! That Jim squandered unfortunately.
He lynched a PR with no chance to claim D1, he staunchly opposed a "broken" pro-town plan, he got into a huge town-v-town fight with the only remaining PR later, and he certainly didn't make himself obvious (in my opinion), and as far as I can tell, in the opinion of most (in-thread and in the spectator thread). Which is why I'm curious for ash's take.
The town v. town fight wasn't like his fault. TA accused him, wrongly.
-
raerae won the game at m/237 in the mafia QT. She just didn't know it at the time.
-
The town v. town fight wasn't like his fault. TA accused him, wrongly.
That's not how I took it at all. TA accused him because ash was playing scummy as heck, and ash didn't react well.
-
I will defend ash here. I don't think he played nearly as crazily as other people claim, and he made himself obviously town, which is a major benefit in the endgame! That Jim squandered unfortunately.
He lynched a PR with no chance to claim D1, he staunchly opposed a "broken" pro-town plan, he got into a huge town-v-town fight with the only remaining PR later, and he certainly didn't make himself obvious (in my opinion), and as far as I can tell, in the opinion of most (in-thread and in the spectator thread). Which is why I'm curious for ash's take.
The town v. town fight wasn't like his fault. TA accused him, wrongly.
Ash and I were both really stubborn and really wrong. Sorry, ash.
-
m/169 in the mafia thread: the real reason yuma won't allow Happily Ever After. :D
-
m/169 in the mafia thread: the real reason yuma won't allow Happily Ever After. :D
Yes, that goes for everyone and every game. If a game ever goes to HEA I just won't include it in my stats... too much work.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
-
really, I don't think HEA should ever happen. mods should just always do the modkill thing, or just not let them no lynch/no kill again.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
-
does this game win the most no lynches award? I doubt there's ever been a game with 3 no lynches previously.
-
So big takeaways from this game:
1 - The hider plan was obviously broken. That was my fault as a mod and should have thought through it better. Allow this to be a warning to future mods that combining flavor with the game itself can be dangerous.
2 - I was bummed the Tracker/Vig was killed off so early. I felt that the intrigue behind this setup was the interactions that role has with the others. Voltaire dying made this game much more Vanilla much more quickly.
3 - Lio brings up a point that mafia went the whole game w/o having a true case brought up on them, more or less. The two that died were outed via investigation or counter claim and were obvious lynches at the time. While losing a mafia member is bad, in this way I believe it actually benefited mafia. This is because during those whole two days there was less information to analyze. They were obvious lynches. So despite this being day7 there were significantly less days to actually analyze content. See the defenses that raerae and ash made. They were primarily from day1 and day4. The rest of the days were rather devoid of real content.
4 - Missing deadlines and no-voting. Certainly a theme for this game. Unfortunate. I am not happy that this is the way the game ended, but there wasn't an alternative from my perspective. Thanks to everyone for taking it as it is and not becoming overly frustrated or angry with the ultimate result. I hope everyone had fun regardless of the ending.
5 - I think the MVP goes to raerae (if you disagree, submit your own MVP nomination). Liopoil certainly gets a nod for the counter claim successfully paid off. While it went well I think it was risky. If he isn't believed and is lynched before TA, raerae would have a much harder time winning this. UoS was great with his plan, but again I would have liked to see how he would have operated based off his own reads rather than following a strict plan. Better for town =! more fun.
6 - thanks to mail-mi for helping co-mod and to EFHW and Jorbles for stepping in while I was VLA.
7 - Remember to sign up for Modern Community Mafia when it opens for signups in a few weeks and Arrested Development Mafia probably two months or so down the road.
-
Also interesting to note that all 3 mafia were off wagon on day1. 7 town members participated in lynching a PR day1.. I was ecstatic!
-
final post count:
robz 75
eevee 108
nkirbit 64
twisted 272
mcmc 93
raerae 135
UoS 164
chairs 108
Jimmm 106
lio 89
volt 134
shraeye 66
ash 436
-
5 - I think the MVP goes to raerae
Yes this this this.
-
Yeah, raerae for MVP.
-
I will defend ash here. I don't think he played nearly as crazily as other people claim, and he made himself obviously town, which is a major benefit in the endgame! That Jim squandered unfortunately.
He lynched a PR with no chance to claim D1, he staunchly opposed a "broken" pro-town plan, he got into a huge town-v-town fight with the only remaining PR later, and he certainly didn't make himself obvious (in my opinion), and as far as I can tell, in the opinion of most (in-thread and in the spectator thread). Which is why I'm curious for ash's take.
The town v. town fight wasn't like his fault. TA accused him, wrongly.
Ash and I were both really stubborn and really wrong. Sorry, ash.
I don't think I started following when all that started. If you were also very stubborn, I may have been too hard on ash in the speccy.
I think the takeaway is that uninformed town should never, never think that they know something 100%. Not even 90%. Town v town fights are not uncommon and if one or both participants are stubborn then that can be big trouble for town. Also, when you are accused, OMGUS is never the right reaction. Just because someone accused you, a townie, does not mean that they are scum out to mislynch you.
-
So why was my claim so scummy? :(
-
One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
Also, what was this?
-
One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.
Also, what was this?
It was ultimately Voltaire being the Tracker/Vigilante. There were a bunch of options and I chose one randomly.
The Cop as Tracker/Vig
The Cop as Detective (if that was chosen, I chose that very first)
Prof. Plum as Psychologist (if that was chosen)
Mr. Green as the Hider
Wadsworth the Butler as mafia (he ended up being that anyways)
Mrs. Peacock as mafia
Miss Scarlet as mafia
Mr. Green as Tracker/Vig
maybe more? I think that was it.
-
Well that was a crappy way to end the game.
-
It was ultimately Voltaire being the Tracker/Vigilante.
My consolation prize. I'm special! And hella wrong about ash.
-
It was ultimately Voltaire being the Tracker/Vigilante.
My consolation prize. I'm special! And hella wrong about ash.
Join the club :D
I got suuuuper distracted by the self-voting, and I wouldn't be surprised if I get surprised by it next time, too.
-
This is why I was posting and pushing today and raerae kept slow rolling and NOT posting cases or answers or anything.
FALSE!!! I still think I made the right call for town. You and I yelling at each other wouldn't have done any good (see you vs. TA). Both of us would have come out covered in shit and Jimmmmmm would have had a harder time seeing who started that way. Also, I did post a case on you and answered every reasonable question put to me (ie. not the stuff you were throwing at me after you decided I was scum). Also, also, I recently, and sadly, decided that while sassy ass raerae is my favorite raerae, she really doesn't help town when it comes down to the wire like it did in this game. Also, also, also, I didn't realize the deadline was today until last night so no, this wasn't some sneaky scum plan I had cooked up.
-
well, we won I guess...
Not that sweet, I know.
-
Your inner monologue in the mafia QT is a pretty funny read, raerae :)
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
I still extra super double hard disagree with this. Mcmc, how wrong am I?
-
Also interesting to note that all 3 mafia were off wagon on day1. 7 town members participated in lynching a PR day1.. I was ecstatic!
Hey-o!!
-
Your inner monologue in the mafia QT is a pretty funny read, raerae :)
Just a little peep into this wackadoo brain of mine :)
-
Yuma, speccy #17 - we're down! And I promise you would probably regret it :)
-
Yuma, speccy #17 - we're down! And I promise you would probably regret it :)
well next time I am in (Georgia is it? truth be told I have never been even close) or the next time you are in Utah (I am guessing you haven't) we will make a date of it.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
I still extra super double hard disagree with this. Mcmc, how wrong am I?
From a third party view as you were making the decision, I think I would have left Mcmc alive instead of Jimm. But obviously you're going to know way more about the situation you want to create than Lio does, so I am really glad you went with what you wanted and not what Lio wanted.
-
Lots of deleted posts in that speccy...
-
Vote Count 7.3
<insert flavor>
ashersky: (1) raerae
raerae: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time. That is in ~ 9 hours.
Oh fuck. I read this as 9 days. Sorry guys. I think I'm done with Mafia for a while.
-
Lots of deleted posts in that speccy...
There's only 2!
-
Sorry everyone. :( >:( :-[ :'(
-
Vote Count 7.3
<insert flavor>
ashersky: (1) raerae
raerae: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time. That is in ~ 9 hours.
Oh fuck. I read this as 9 days. Sorry guys. I think I'm done with Mafia for a while.
Who were you going to vote for?
-
Sorry everyone. :( >:( :-[ :'(
It's okay, it happens. Obviously real life takes priority. No hard feelings at all! You certainly did no more to lose us the game than Ash/myself did, I think.
-
Vote Count 7.3
<insert flavor>
ashersky: (1) raerae
raerae: (1) ashersky
Not voting: (1) Jimmmmm
With three alive it takes two to lynch.
Deadline for Day7 is August 21, 2013 at 6 pm forum time. That is in ~ 9 hours.
Oh fuck. I read this as 9 days. Sorry guys. I think I'm done with Mafia for a while.
Who were you going to vote for?
Probably raerae, which sucks. I came on here this morning with the intent to get my re-read done and hopefully vote.
-
Well, shit, I thought I played a pretty good game :*(
Sorry about the loss though. Really not how I wanted us to win.
-
Obviously I'm disappointed.
As to Voltaire's question -- I'll defend myself a bit in that I feel I came on strong at the end. I put in the work with rereads and cases, and I do think I had convinced Jimmmmm, or would have in the end.
My style is what it is, and it is consistent. That may be hard for newer players to work with, but it's pretty clear when I'm town and when I'm not.
I didn't like the broken Hider plan, and had I been scum, I would have put all my efforts into gaming it. The system worked out, though, for town, for what resulted in a town loss anyway.
Hammering Voltaire? No regrets there. Not much to be done about it. We mislynch people, and sometimes we mislynch PRs. At least you weren't a claimed PR, and at least you were super scummy.
As for TA...I'm sorry man. I do read you as scummy often, and we confirmation biased ourselves into that situation. I haven't read the speccy or mafia QTs yet, but I'm expecting that I never redeemed myself in your eyes as town until the game ended. I think at the very least, we've both taken away a good lesson when we play together again.
-
Well, shit, I thought I played a pretty good game :*(
Sorry about the loss though. Really not how I wanted us to win.
You definitely did play a great game. I had you on the town list basically until you had to be scum at the end. When I finally did the work of a re-read, all the signs were there from D1, but I didn't catch it at the time.
It sucks for the game to end this way. It really does. Probably doesn't feel as earned as it should. You did win though, and nothing can take that away.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
I still extra super double hard disagree with this. Mcmc, how wrong am I?
Pretty wrong, I would have been on ash like crazy
-
As for TA...I'm sorry man. I do read you as scummy often, and we confirmation biased ourselves into that situation. I haven't read the speccy or mafia QTs yet, but I'm expecting that I never redeemed myself in your eyes as town until the game ended. I think at the very least, we've both taken away a good lesson when we play together again.
Yeah. You were really scummy to me, and I thought I had a good case built..but boy was I wrong. I guess I zeroed in too much on the self-voting, but I think that will just always read scummy to me. It's not something I'm going to be able to read well, unfortunately, since I don't think there's really an advantage to it.
I think I was also thrown off that you usually propose crazy plans that don't necessarily accomplish much, so when there's a plan that was obviously pro-town to most people, you opposed it, which was really off.
But we definitely made it far too easy on scum.
As soon as I got lynched, I asked Nkirbit who the final scum was, and it made oh so much sense reading the game. I'm sure I would have found you scummy up until the end if I didn't know, though.
-
Congrats scum! Not the most fun way to end it but.. you know, that happens. No hard feelings Jimm. :)
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
I'm somewhat happy I pinned liopoil and raerae as scummy on my last day and got killed for that, I guess that's the dream of every VT. Sad it didn't help us to win.
-
Congrats scum! Not the most fun way to end it but.. you know, that happens. No hard feelings Jimm. :)
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
I'm somewhat happy I pinned liopoil and raerae as scummy on my last day and got killed for that, I guess that's the dream of every VT. Sad it didn't help us to win.
Yeah, you were spot on as picking up TA vs Ash as town vs town and listing Lio and Raerae as the two most likely to flip scum. Why you were killed for sure... scum wanted to keep the focus on those two players.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
I still extra super double hard disagree with this. Mcmc, how wrong am I?
Pretty wrong, I would have been on ash like crazy
ha!
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
-
well, we won I guess...
Hooray!
What was your other reason for wanting the 3-man lylo?
At the time, I assumed we would kill Jimmmm and chairs, leaving mcmc-ash-raerae as the players at the end. I think either one of them would get lynched, as shown by ash saying mcmc was his top suspect in his reread during the night before he was NKed, and by mcmc deciding it was ashersky in the speccy QT. I think that lylo would be won easily. This one, not so much.
I still extra super double hard disagree with this. Mcmc, how wrong am I?
Pretty wrong, I would have been on ash like crazy
Well, damn. Guess the safe bet isn't always the right one.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
No! I love playing with you! You know you are one of my favorite people around here. That doesn't make self-voting or being dead set on lynching a claimed pr without a counterclaim a good move.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
You just gotta be a little less tunnel-y is all. :P
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I never would have gunned for you if I had been town. Sorry, dude.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I never would have gunned for you if I had been town. Sorry, dude.
You didn't even gun for me until you had to. I was literally the only one left to gun for.
You definitely reacted to me as I expected town!raerae to react. That definitely clouded my read on you for a long time.
-
I think it was totally terrible that you forgot the result TA had on Jimmm, even if you landed on the right conclusion about Jimmm eventually regardless.
-
I think it was totally terrible that you forgot the result TA had on Jimmm, even if you landed on the right conclusion about Jimmm eventually regardless.
I didn't remember it until I read it in the speccy. Definitely bad. Luckily, my re-read led to the correct conclusion anyway.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I never would have gunned for you if I had been town. Sorry, dude.
You didn't even gun for me until you had to. I was literally the only one left to gun for.
You definitely reacted to me as I expected town!raerae to react. That definitely clouded my read on you for a long time.
Would you have gone after Jimmmmmm or was that just to throw me off?
-
I think it was totally terrible that you forgot the result TA had on Jimmm, even if you landed on the right conclusion about Jimmm eventually regardless.
But that wasn't 100%, right? So it isn't like town could have relied on it without question?
-
I think it was totally terrible that you forgot the result TA had on Jimmm, even if you landed on the right conclusion about Jimmm eventually regardless.
But that wasn't 100%, right? So it isn't like town could have relied on it without question?
Not 100%, but clearly a piece of evidence town should have considered.
-
I definitely thought that Ash's suspicion list day6 could have been complete WIFOM. I think it's a somewhat reasonable thing to do.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I never would have gunned for you if I had been town. Sorry, dude.
You didn't even gun for me until you had to. I was literally the only one left to gun for.
You definitely reacted to me as I expected town!raerae to react. That definitely clouded my read on you for a long time.
Would you have gone after Jimmmmmm or was that just to throw me off?
I was trying to get you to go after Jimmmmm. That's also why I didn't commit on D7.
-
I think my record as scum is tied with mcmc for best winning percentage (if you count RMM). 4-1. Not so good as town.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I certainly don't feel that way. I think that you have a style that you shouldn't change (unless you yourself wants to change it) and one that I think is actually quite effective. I won't tell you what I think you should do. But only ask that you remember that people react to you a certain way pretty consistently. Could we react better? Yes. But you asking us to change how we react to you is the same as us asking you to play differently. I don't think necessarily either need to happen, but rather that both sides need to be more aware of how the other side might be responding.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I certainly don't feel that way. I think that you have a style that you shouldn't change (unless you yourself wants to change it) and one that I think is actually quite effective. I won't tell you what I think you should do. But only ask that you remember that people react to you a certain way pretty consistently. Could we react better? Yes. But you asking us to change how we react to you is the same as us asking you to play differently. I don't think necessarily either need to happen, but rather that both sides need to be more aware of how the other side might be responding.
Sorry if I seemed to want you all the change around me. I definitely don't. I think how players react to my play helps me (and others, actually) scumhunt. You, of all players, definitely get it. I think that's maybe because you are so diametrically opposed to a lot of what I do, but realize the reasoning behind it most of the time.
I just think town!ash is a problem for scumteams--more than town gives me credit for.
-
Thanks for running this Yuma, and thanks to the others who helped out with vote counts.
What was the deal with the flavor? Did anyone correctly guess it? Did anyone even guess? I didn't have much clue what was actually happening in regards to that.
-
Thanks for running this Yuma, and thanks to the others who helped out with vote counts.
What was the deal with the flavor? Did anyone correctly guess it? Did anyone even guess? I didn't have much clue what was actually happening in regards to that.
I think the only person that ended up guessing was mail-mi. The flavor was fun to write, but ended up not being quite as coherent as I wanted it to be. I was just a tad too busy for that. But I think the people that have seen CLUE enjoyed the quoting mashups.
Ultimately the flavor was supposed to indicate that it was Miss Scarlett but I think too many lose ends were not resolved... and once I saw most people weren't quite as interested in participating with it I basically dropped it so I could concentrate on other things.
-
Ash, you should absolutely not change your style. I'm terrible and reading it, and it seems others are as well, but it's definitely fun to try and figure it out. Different styles are great, and make the mafia experience more fun. Overall, your playstyle makes mafia games that you're in more fun, and that's always a great thing.
I do think though that you are really hard to read, which explains your awesome record as scum and less awesome record as town.
-
Thanks for running this Yuma, and thanks to the others who helped out with vote counts.
What was the deal with the flavor? Did anyone correctly guess it? Did anyone even guess? I didn't have much clue what was actually happening in regards to that.
I think the only person that ended up guessing was mail-mi. The flavor was fun to write, but ended up not being quite as coherent as I wanted it to be. I was just a tad too busy for that. But I think the people that have seen CLUE enjoyed the quoting mashups.
Ultimately the flavor was supposed to indicate that it was Miss Scarlett but I think too many lose ends were not resolved... and once I saw most people weren't quite as interested in participating with it I basically dropped it so I could concentrate on other things.
But I was Miss Scarlett!
-
Ash, your town play infuriates me when I'm town. I can't recall the last game we played together as town where we didn't end up eating a portion of d1 fighting with each other and counter accusing each other.
That said, after I've moved past "God is Ash infuriating", you're pretty damn easy for me to read as town. Like, we go through the motions every game, but it always leaves me better able to read you. And ultimately I care more about that than I do about getting frustrated at various times. The frustration leads to better reads... so I've got no complaints.
-
I still think ashersky played a ridiculously anti-town game. Would this actually be something worth discussing for future games?
It's clear from the speccy that you'd all rather I never play again as town.
I certainly don't feel that way. I think that you have a style that you shouldn't change (unless you yourself wants to change it) and one that I think is actually quite effective. I won't tell you what I think you should do. But only ask that you remember that people react to you a certain way pretty consistently. Could we react better? Yes. But you asking us to change how we react to you is the same as us asking you to play differently. I don't think necessarily either need to happen, but rather that both sides need to be more aware of how the other side might be responding.
Sorry if I seemed to want you all the change around me. I definitely don't. I think how players react to my play helps me (and others, actually) scumhunt. You, of all players, definitely get it. I think that's maybe because you are so diametrically opposed to a lot of what I do, but realize the reasoning behind it most of the time.
I just think town!ash is a problem for scumteams--more than town gives me credit for.
Ash just so you know I feel 100% the opposite. Personally, I think you are an amazing player, I think you are terrifying to play against when I'm scum, and extremely dangerous when you are scum. I mean I had the pleasure of knowing you were scum in our previous argument where you very talentedly convinced town I was scum.
So baisically I look at you play and assume that whatever you are doing it is helping your team. The downside to this is in this game you happened to be wrong. TA was town, you have to expect to take alot of heat for the fact that you hounded a fellow townie to the grave. That's absolutely fine, we all make mistakes I just expect such good play from you when you make a mistake, I cannot believe it and assume you are scum.
I think we all love that your playstyle engages everyone and really does help your team(most of the time)
-
If I had to describe it, I'd say that your playstyle (town or scum) ash always reads to me as high risk, high reward. It infuriates me when it's going badly when you're town because I can't tell whose side you're on, but when you pull something off that works it's pretty great. Practice makes perfect right?
-
So baisically I look at you play and assume that whatever you are doing it is helping your team. The downside to this is in this game you happened to be wrong. TA was town, you have to expect to take alot of heat for the fact that you hounded a fellow townie to the grave.
I think we all love that your playstyle engages everyone and really does help your team(most of the time)
I like your contributions, Ash. The only problem I have seen is the fastening on someone and deciding they are scum to the point where you stop helping out in any other scum-hunting (or decide to vig them ;)).
I wonder what we would find if we looked all the times a player has felt totally convinced someone is scum and then looked at the number of times they were right. I bet the accuracy rate would not be much better than chance. This includes me, too.