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[chairs]

In reference to raerae's chairs case, I think the scumslip portion has some merit.  Literally no one has discussed it.

What are you referring to, exactly?

The message to his scumbuddies for not hammering me.

Since I'm town, I'd kind of like to see what you're talking about so I can ensure that in future games I don't give you the wrong impression.

Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.

We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.

This is just untrue. If you're dying anyways, and you get a PR to claim, isn't that pretty awesome for scum?

I think, given the lack of protective roles in this game, there is MORE incentive to fakeclaim PR, not less incentive.

Arguable; I can see the point you're making, but at the same time you're eating 1 for 1 that way, and if you're SURE you're getting lynched anyway, sure, but if you're not 100% sure you're getting lynched VT is probably the better claim.


==== Final(?) Reads ====

Robz - Town.
raerae - Town.
lio - Null
TA - Null / Slight Town
shraeye - Null / Slight Scum
Eevee - Null
Voltaire - Moderate-Heavy Scum (but that's what would be expected of me to say if I was scum, too, so take that into account if you're using these to determine if to hammer)
UoS - Null / Slight Scum
Jimmmmm - Null
nkirbit - Slight-Moderate Town
mcmcsalot - Null
ashersky - Moderate-Heavy Scum

==== End Reads ====

So, if I don't get to post in here for D2, it's been a pleasure.

[nkirbit]

So how sure are you that you're getting lynched, Chairs?

[ashersky]

Robz, if you move back to Volt, you can rest assured that if it comes down to it, I'll hammer him over chairs.

[ashersky]

This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious.  Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering?  I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.

I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.

Chairs, this is what I was referring to.

[ashersky]

I'm here.

Will this be a game of chicken as to who gives up first and switches sides?

I'm starting to feel like both wagons are semi-stalling because they are both town and scum is indifferent as to who gets lynched and doesn't want to get their hands dirty on a town lynch.

Not much we can do about that anymore though, is there?

Robz's late push on liopoil was interesting in this light.

The other way to look at it is that wagons that are hard to lynch tend to be scum.  I don't know if that's still true, but it used to be.  Generally, you aren't getting 100% town wagons, so without scum on board, folks don't get lynched.  If scum just stays away from scum buddies, which is easy on D1 when there isn't a clear slip, lynches don't go smoothly.

[ashersky]

Hey guys woah. I wasn't planning on reading the thread tonight but I saw 3-4 new pages and wanted to read in case there was a lynch or something. I don't have time to reply to everything right now but I will be online tomorrow morning before the deadline, but only starting about an hour beforehand. I know that sucks but I have to go to bed now. I'll try to get on earlier if I can.

We should lynch chairs. This nonsense that scum would claim a PR is insane. Scum will claim VT in this game - anything else is an insta-counterclaim and death.

This is a terrible argument.  A few things:

1) Why is someone at L-2 not planning to read the thread?  (Standard IRL excuses apply, of course, for why you wouldn't actually read, but actively planning not to when close to death is weird.)
2) Scum would absolutely claim Tracker/Vig if they were going to die, so they could find the real one.  Anyone who responds to a tracker/vig claim with "wait, if you are the real one, don't counter claim and let's just lynch this one" would be burnt at the stake.  Lynching a claimed PR without a counter just makes no sense.  So how does scum out the only PR that actually hurts them?  By fakeclaiming it.
3) We should lynch "person who is the option other than me" is not a great statement to be making.

[ashersky]

Also, for what it is worth, my scum read on TA has lessened over the last 5 hours.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

So I just caught up, and I still don't see why Volt is more likely to be scum, it seems to me that Chairs is more likely to be scum, and as I said earlier, I don't see why Vanilla Townie is such a bad claim for scum, given that we're having this argument and it seems like his lynch won't go through.

Aside from the policy-vote on Ash and the "Scum might tunnel me on this later so before anyone calls me out on this let me correct myself, it was TA's plan originally, Umbrage just perfected it." (Or whatever he exactly said, I've looked it up like 5 times now, not doing it again right now), what exactly is the reason all the talkative folks other than me are so sure Volt is scum?

The reason I mainly pointed out that I thought so many of the votes on him were suspcious is that
1) I didn't think the two reasons I mentioned above were particularly strong reasons.
2) I didn't see anything else.
3) Since most of the votes I saw on Volt were scummy, it gives me a townread on him.  That wagon smelled more like scum manipulation to me.

Obviously, about half of you don't agree on these, but why does it seem like people all dismissed #3 and said I didn't actually show why I didn't like the case on him?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.

Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it.  If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.

[chairs]

So how sure are you that you're getting lynched, Chairs?

I'm thinking it's probably 70/30, roughly?  I've said some things that at least some town members have interpreted as scummy, and my focus on gut instinct over attempting to logic my way through things (which btw is why I've shifted from scum to town on robz) may work for me, but is not necessarily terribly helpful for town overall, whereas volt has made quite a few posts detailing his position as to his reads (and I'm assuming at this point that one of us is being lynched).  As town, I think he's tunneling very hard and it feels kind of like scum trying to force the mislynch, but I've said my piece on that and even that was used as "chairs is scum" ammunition.

This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious.  Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering?  I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.

I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.

Chairs, this is what I was referring to.

I was legitimately curious - I felt like this was an excellent opportunity for people who are better at rereads than I am to go back and review exactly how that situation defused itself.  I also thought that, if you were scum, this was a spot where they could've had a reasonable mislynch and failed to hammer.  This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop.  It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.

[Twistedarcher]

Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.

Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it.  If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.

This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.

This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.

Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it.  If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.

This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.

This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.

You're right and wrong.  I definitely strongly believe that Voltaire is town, so I really don't want him lynched.  But I was voting Mcmcsalot before Chairs, I've made at least two posts trying to feel people out about that wagon and getting ignored, despite a lot of people finding him scummy, so I'm putting my vote where my mouth is, since I'm worried we're going to get a no-lynch and I don't want to let a townread get hammered.

I've been finding Mcmcsalot very scummy for days, I didn't think that was ever unclear.

[nkirbit]

Also, I will not be voting Volt, because I believe he is town with scum on his wagon.

Vote: Mcmcsalot
Lets give this a try, see if anyone else wants to join me and Ash on it.  If it doesn't take off, or not enough people are logging on, I'll switch back to Chairs before the deadline.

This reads to me like you don't want the Voltaire lynch to go through so badly that you're trying anything to get ANYONE else lynched.

This makes me more confident of lynching Voltaire, not less. Still not enamored with it, but a little bit more confident.

You're right and wrong.  I definitely strongly believe that Voltaire is town, so I really don't want him lynched.  But I was voting Mcmcsalot before Chairs, I've made at least two posts trying to feel people out about that wagon and getting ignored, despite a lot of people finding him scummy, so I'm putting my vote where my mouth is, since I'm worried we're going to get a no-lynch and I don't want to let a townread get hammered.

I've been finding Mcmcsalot very scummy for days, I didn't think that was ever unclear.

You're worried about a no-lynch, and worried about Voltaire getting hammered, so you're moving off the alternative lynch who is at L-1?

The only way that a no lynch will happen is if we end tonight with 4 people voting mcmc, 4 people voting Voltaire, and 4 people voting Chairs, and don't have enough people online tomorrow morning (generally not the most active time) to force through one of those wagons.  I'm a bit worried that this is the situation that you're looking to create.

I agree with you that I would rather lynch Mcmc than Voltaire, and will vote that way if the situation occurs.  But I'm worried that if I switch from Chairs to Mcmc, Voltaire will be the only viable option if we want to avoid a no-lynch, so I'm not willing to move at this point.

Plus, I think Chairs is more likely to flip scum than mcmc, so I'd rather stay here.

[nkirbit]

I guess I should clarify the "that's the situation you're looking to create."  I don't actually mean that you're doing that deliberately, although that's how it reads.  I'm worried that you moving to mcmc will do this, regardless of whether you realize it or not.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop.  It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.

Voltaire policy-voted here. July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm.  About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.)  There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions.  I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).

The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.

Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then.  Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.

Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him.  And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I guess I should clarify the "that's the situation you're looking to create."  I don't actually mean that you're doing that deliberately, although that's how it reads.  I'm worried that you moving to mcmc will do this, regardless of whether you realize it or not.

That is kind of the reason I kept hesitating to move my vote.

Yeah, as the only one to respond to that, you may have a point about the number of people checking in.  As this day goes on, I keep thinking that the biggest problem we're going to have trying to find scum is just the level of participation in this game.
Vote: Chairs

[chairs]

This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop.  It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.

Voltaire policy-voted here. July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm.  About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.)  There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions.  I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).

The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.

Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then.  Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.

Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him.  And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?

Fair enough.  I'm tired, it's been a ridiculously long week, and you've clearly put in the effort to review something that I had misremembered myself (though I didn't think he'd put L-1 on ash, I did think it had happened in a very "But I want you guys to lynch ash" moment).

[ashersky]

This is one of the reasons why Volt feels scummy to me - right as it looked like things were heading towards your lynch not happening, he hits a policy vote that potentially could've been the impetus to make the hammer drop.  It didn't work out that way, but that was probably (if I had to try to come up with a single, solid reason for it) I've been voting volt.

Voltaire policy-voted here. July 15, 2013, 08:03:39 pm.
I made my case on Ashersky at July 15, 2013, 07:47:25 pm.  About 15 minutes earlier.
Ash had 5 votes on him (including his own.)  There was tons of sarcasm, yelling (or it read like yelling to me), heated emotions.  I wanted to reach through the computer and slap Ashersky at that point (no offense, Ash).

The wagon was most certainly not dying down at that point, in fact it feels like the height of the anti-Ash raging to me.

Also, Volt never put him at L-1, but it's kind of weird to allude to that ("make the hammer drop") when we cleared it up way back then.  Like it could prey on people misremembering the situation.

Also, if that is why Chairs voted for Volt, why did it take him until July 18, 2013, 12:01:51 pm, three days later, to vote for him.  And why is the reason different now than the reason he gave the last time he tried to explain it?

Fair enough.  I'm tired, it's been a ridiculously long week, and you've clearly put in the effort to review something that I had misremembered myself (though I didn't think he'd put L-1 on ash, I did think it had happened in a very "But I want you guys to lynch ash" moment).

To be even fairer, I called out Voltaire for putting me at L-1 without warning, and then it turned out I was incorrect about that assertion and retracted it.  So that may be adding to your confusion.

[ashersky]

Unless we're able to get Volt to L-1, nothing is going to happen anyway.

Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy.  I mean, horribly scummy.  Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.

The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now?  There's no shame in switching to Volt here.



Nkirbit, had you voted for mcmc after UoS, we'd have had 3 on him.  That's momentum.  You killed that momentum and got UoS to revote the towny.  FOS at both of you for that.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Unless we're able to get Volt to L-1, nothing is going to happen anyway.

Anyone who switches from Voltaire to hammer chairs will look ULTRA scummy.  I mean, horribly scummy.  Like, hammering chairs to save Voltaire scummy.

Agreed, that's why I've been interested in the Mcmcsalot potential.  Because anyone backing down is going to look scummy, even if they aren't, which may be bad for town in all the havoc it creates, and no one wants to take that jump.  I was thinking Mcmcsalot was the other viable lynch, because so many people (including me!) suspect him.  Hell, I wanted to lynch him days ago!

The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now?  There's no shame in switching to Volt here.

Wait, what?  Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way?  I'd think that would be equally scummy.  Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will.  Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?

Nkirbit, had you voted for mcmc after UoS, we'd have had 3 on him.  That's momentum.  You killed that momentum and got UoS to revote the towny.  FOS at both of you for that.

That is what I was going for, momentum and a viable alternative people could agree on!  I've tried to get this started several times!

But nkirbit's post made sense to me too.  What if I got him and someone else on the Mcmcsalot wagon, and then no one logged on?  People are so damn inactive that it's hard to tell who is going to be around when, and the game seems prone to being sabotaged by real-life availability.  I think I already complained about this.  But this is my first online game.  I hate to bring that up again, but I think it's an important point.  I did what I thought made sense, because I was hoping to lead people to a wagon we could compromise on that I ALSO think is scum.  But then I get called out on it sabotaging town, so I back down and put my vote back to keeping Chairs an L-1 so people can hammer him near the deadline.  But then I get called out on that.

I honestly don't know what to do here.  This is a very strange situation to me, and it seems like everything I do or say makes it worse!

(Also, I'm getting sick of being called scummy for like every post I make or attempt to help.  That or calling them useless.  People seem to be building up this narrative that I'm not helping, ignoring the actual content of a lot of what I post and it's infuriating.  And then there are all the talk about posting too much being bad for town, but everyone lurks and won't actually talk or hash things out or respond to anything.  At first people gave me a lot of credit for putting in a lot of effort, and yeah that made me happy, but it seems like Raerae and Shraeye are kind of leading a backlash on that and on putting in any effort.  I should probably just shut up now.  I post too fucking much anyway.  I'll try to be quiet and not help so much or even try, then everyone will think I'm contributing more!)

Also, drunk.  I should probably shut up.

[nkirbit]

I am around, still.  Let me look through who isn't voting Chairs, and if those people are likely to switch.

[ashersky]

The fact that no one is taking the easy opportunity to go the other way (chairs to Volt) tells me even more that chairs is town, because why wouldn't a scumbuddy change his vote by now?  There's no shame in switching to Volt here.

Wait, what?  Why is Chairs to Volt the easy way?  I'd think that would be equally scummy.  Particularly if Volt flips town as I suspect he will.  Is this whole argument predicated on you assuming Volt is scum or am I missing something?

I believe Chairs to Volt is the easy way because Chairs still hasn't been lynched, which lends credence to either belief (town or scum, you can use it to support either argument), and so saying "hey, let's try Volt then" is as fair as anything, plus plenty of others feel he's scummy.  A switch to put Volt at L-1 is nowhere near as scummy as a switch to hammer Chairs.

UoS, you seem frustrated.  I see where you are coming from.  You can't let it rile you like that.  That's what scum wants if you are town.  This is a game of deception, lies, trickery, and pissing people off.  That's why we like it so much.  I think you fit in great with this crew, and should keep it up.

[ashersky]

I am around, still.  Let me look through who isn't voting Chairs, and if those people are likely to switch.

I don't know who you think you'll get to switch.  All the scummy folks (except mcmc) are on Chairs already.

[nkirbit]

Currently not voting for Chairs:

shraeye, mcmcsalot, chairs, Jimmmm, TA, ashersky, Robz

Ashersky has said he will not vote Chairs,  Robz has said he would prefer Voltaire, and everyone else is on Voltaire.  Do we think any of these players are likely to move to Chairs?  If not, I should move to Mcmc, because I would prefer a Mcmc lynch to a voltaire lynch.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Thanks Ash.  Whether you're town or scum, I appreciate that last part.

Also, typing when you aren't allowed to edit posts is just like talking, you say something and then you feel like an ass when you go back and read it. 

Umm yeah, I do like this game, but yeah, I'm wicked frustrated.  I have been a lot this game, but these past few days, ever since the soft deadline that was so soft it melted.  It's like we're not even trying here!