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[ashersky]

Weekend starts suck.  I'll be barely around until my Monday (your Sunday night).

vote: all of you for creating 5 pages of text that has zero worth as far as scum hunting goes.

You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1? 

As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.

Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny.  And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.

[Twistedarcher]

I think Vig/Tracker should choose on their own.

I find it interesting that out of the 5-6 things Shraeye quoted, none of them actually dealt with the main topic of discussion.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

You all realize we can just TELL the trackerlante which one to choose TONIGHT given the CHOICE is MADE on N1? 

It's as if that is exactly what we were discussing!

As for all that Hider talk, I'm anti Hider talk, and won't do it.

So wait, you won't agree to the plan we seem to have going?  Regardless of whether you want to get into talking about it, yes/no do you think it is a good plan?

Also, why is RVS a requirement for scumhunting?  People keep saying this, but I don't understand why that should be true.

[Twistedarcher]

Real vote: TA for starting the game off with theory/hider talk, which amounts to so much rolefishing it isn't even funny.  And for ensuring we had no RVS from which to enter into scumhunting.

Um, no it's not rolefishing. And I really do think it's a pro-town plan, and not participating is beneficial to scum. Who's okay with the Hider dying behind a mafia and town being unable to identify who it is? Mafia!

Who cares if we don't have RVS?

[Twistedarcher]

okay, I love the hider plan.

I think vig is usually bad for town, tracker in a setup like this I think is good because it cant confuse us at all.
Add the fact that there the detective/psychologist, aand the hider, I don't see any reason whatsoever to chose vig.

On the topic of detective and psycologist, I have some thoughts.
1) Detective needs to wifom if you get the result of "has not killed" that is a good chance that person is town, so potentially claim to save them.
2) Psycologist needs to wifom as well, a negative result means the player is likely town and you could claim to save them.
The neat trick with this is mafia should only have one player do the nk the whole game and have a better chance to be "cleared" by a detective but they should have a different player do the nk each not to increase "clearing" from a psycologist.

Now lets assume for a second mafia is smart, there is a 50/50 shot for D/P, D can only clear 2 mafia where as P can clear all 3, so they should go ahead and have everyone shoot. Now this means a detective can very likely trust a result of "has not killed" and a Psycologist should not out himself with a negative result.

I think town has good pr's and if used correctly are in good shape.

Why are you giving scum advice on what to do?

[mcmcsalot]

okay, I love the hider plan.

I think vig is usually bad for town, tracker in a setup like this I think is good because it cant confuse us at all.
Add the fact that there the detective/psychologist, aand the hider, I don't see any reason whatsoever to chose vig.

On the topic of detective and psycologist, I have some thoughts.
1) Detective needs to wifom if you get the result of "has not killed" that is a good chance that person is town, so potentially claim to save them.
2) Psycologist needs to wifom as well, a negative result means the player is likely town and you could claim to save them.
The neat trick with this is mafia should only have one player do the nk the whole game and have a better chance to be "cleared" by a detective but they should have a different player do the nk each not to increase "clearing" from a psycologist.

Now lets assume for a second mafia is smart, there is a 50/50 shot for D/P, D can only clear 2 mafia where as P can clear all 3, so they should go ahead and have everyone shoot. Now this means a detective can very likely trust a result of "has not killed" and a Psycologist should not out himself with a negative result.

I think town has good pr's and if used correctly are in good shape.

Why are you giving scum advice on what to do?

Because if I can figure that out they can figure it out seeing as they are actively thinking about what to do about things...and it allows me to point out what I think the detective/psychologist should do about claiming when the have what results.

[Twistedarcher]

I like Snow's plan better than Lio's plan.

Lio, simplicity matters because we want to make sure no one screws it up. If we have someone screw it up, who's the hider, it really would be devastating for town.

[shraeye]

Well this may very well work, but as I explained, I don't see why it would be any better, or why you two are so angry about talking about theory.  I think he runs a wonderful website 

I see that joke. about theory. clever.

My plan will work, and it will be better than just theory-talking.  Seriously, it's impossible to slip up or "slip up" when talking about theory.  People sometimes hold conflicting opinions, and both are able to back them up with logical reasoning.  then they both get all up in arms about how "scumA must be scum, because they refuse to believe that townB's plan will work".  So mafia get to just post exactly what they feel about a particular PR, macro-style and it has no bearing micro-style on this particular game.  Some plans are good, but in my opinion it's not worth caring too much about.  Particularly those enlightening posts like when Voltaire posted what the numbers were for each PR.  Seriously, if a power role DOESN'T already know the applicable numbers for their role, then they suck and are bad town members.

Yes with all our fancy plans, our PRs may be working at maximal efficiency, wooo!  But they will be operating in full-random mode with their nicely laid plans, and that isn't really good in the end.  If you let the game actually begin, then people can start forming reads.  Then the PRs really WILL be powerful.

Just vote liopoil, and be prepared to be amazed.

[nkirbit]

Just vote liopoil, and be prepared to be amazed.

This feels like a trap!

[UmbrageOfSnow]

As far as both the "giving scum advice" criticism and the general criticisms of theory talk, I think we should keep Kerckhoffs's principle in mind: "The enemy knows the system."

More specifically, it only makes sense to assume that Mafia are as smart as town.  Given this, anything we can figure out, they can figure out.  Discussing it does not help them unless we are counting on them making mistakes, which seems like a good way to lose (it certainly is in any other game, from chess to Dominion to real-life espionage.)  It does allow us to talk these things through, think them out, and prepare for the worst.  To my mind, we have a better chance at outsmarting scum by talking things through as a group.  If you don't like reading me talking a lot, tough luck!

[ashersky]

I think there was some Robz misleading earlier regarding MXII.

I was the Town Vig.  Eevee was the Town Hider.

I killed Cayvie N1.  Mafia killed me N1.

Eevee died.

If you were playing that game, any way to know for certain who Eevee hid behind?  Nope.  And does it matter who Eevee hid behind?  NOPE.  We were both town.

The actual answer is Eevee hid behind me, after saying in a post D1 to one of these crazy ass plans that he would hide behind me.  Also of note, in that game, Eevee would not have died for hiding behind a vig.  In this one, the hider does.

I believe Robz tried to pass it off that Eevee hid behind my target in MXII.  Not true.  He hid behind me.  Robz lies = town Robz, FYI.

So, again, Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER.

The flavorname plan?  None of you realize that scum know 3/13 flavornames already?

[UmbrageOfSnow]

after saying in a post D1 to one of these crazy ass plans that he would hide behind me.  Also of note, in that game, Eevee would not have died for hiding behind a vig.  In this one, the hider does.

...

So, again, Hider plans do NOTHING but help SCUM KILL THE HIDER.

The flavorname plan?  None of you realize that scum know 3/13 flavornames already?

Okay, first I don't get why this plan is so crazy, it's simple and efficient and seems to be the closest to the optimal play we've come up with.  Hider is useless if town have no way to find out who they hid behind when they died!

Why is this crazy?

How does this help scum kill the Hider?

So they know 3 people (out of 13!) that the Hider will NOT hide behind, that hardly seems helpful to them.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I get the impression most people bitching about this haven't actually bothered to read what the plan was.

Actively pushing for worse town play seem stupid to me.  I don't find it scummy because it just seems angry and lazy more than evil, but it is definitely not helpful.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

I guess by "most people" I only mean shraeye and ashersky.  Sorry guys.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.

Vote: Ashersky

[nkirbit]

Snow:  One thing we didn't consider was that scum would have three targets that they know the hider won't choose:  the players after their flavor character on the name list.  So this does make the plan worse.

Anyway, there is serious resistance to this plan, and I think it's important to not spend 20 pages arguing about it.  It's something that has to be unanimous, and it's not.  I think it was a good idea to bring up, but I don't think continuing to pursue it at this point is helpful.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

1. Robz — AGREED (I think?)
2. raerae — AGREED (I think?)
3. liopoil — AGREED (given insufficient people decide to go with his idea)
4. twistedarcher — AGREED
5. shraeye — NO?
6. Eevee — I don't think he's posted since plan proposed
7. Voltaire — AGREED
8. UmbrageOfSnow — AGREED
9. Jimmmm ­— hasn't posted since plan proposed
10. nkirbit — AGREED
11. chairs — AGREED
12. mcmcsalot — AGREED
13. ashersky — NO?

[Voltaire]

Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?

Basically, I see Snow's plan as a way to maximize the utility of the hider, and it was his first post. I don't see scum coming out of the gate firing with a plan to help maximize a town PR. It's one of my first reads so it's not strong, but it's there. For sure.

And shraeye, looks like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed!  Steer us in the direction you want, then.

[nkirbit]

Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.

Vote: Ashersky

Ash clearly read it.  He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.

[ashersky]

Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.

Vote: Ashersky

Ash clearly read it.  He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.

To be fair, I skimmed the Vig/tracker stuff because it started off with "maybe we should say which we would pick" which is terribad.  If it changed to "should we tell them what to choose" then I missed it.

But yes, I read all the hider plans.

[ashersky]

Town PRs are Town PRs.  They make decisions based on their own scum reads.  If we never scumhunt and just waste a day on all this theory, they have nothing to go on.

I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway.  It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer.  Like a weakened commuter.

[Voltaire]

Volt, can you explain your townread on Snow?

Basically, I see Snow's plan as a way to maximize the utility of the hider, and it was his first post. I don't see scum coming out of the gate firing with a plan to help maximize a town PR. It's one of my first reads so it's not strong, but it's there. For sure.

And shraeye, looks like you woke up on the wrong side of the bed!  Steer us in the direction you want, then.

Before anyone calls me out on this, I've realized this is wrong - TA proposed it, Snow perfected it. I do stand by the Snow read though, just don't want scum tunneling me on misremembering something.

[Voltaire]

Town PRs are Town PRs.  They make decisions based on their own scum reads.  If we never scumhunt and just waste a day on all this theory, they have nothing to go on.

I think most of you concerned about the Hider have the wrong idea about the role anyway.  It isn't to catch scum, it is to keep an extra towny alive longer.  Like a weakened commuter.

But the odds are so high they'll die!

And who said we couldn't scumhunt? Nobody but the people who didn't like the theory talk. And it's already been raised that theory talk can be a way to catch scum in that it allows them empty posts. I, for one, have gotten a fair amount out of these discussions.

People want votes, though? That's fair. They're helpful. Voting for my one tiny scumread so far:

Vote: Jimmmmm

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Looking back, it's most just ashersky who reads like they haven't read it or don't even want to think about helping town play well.

Vote: Ashersky

Ash clearly read it.  He raised an objection to the flavorname plan that's legitimate.

Hmmm.  I might very well be carrying that impression over from the "you do realize they don't have to choose until night 1" thing about the Hider/Vigilante and the general attitude.  Also, I realized I'm getting a bit annoyed here and I probably shouldn't.  I just feel like the two people "resisting" are dismissing this plan out of hand, not actually talking about it under the guise of "I don't do theory talk".  And given that I think it is a good idea, that seems like a very easy way for scum to derail a good idea.

Raerae managed to not talk about theory and also not come across that way, and shraeye just mainly seems grumpy.  I want to know why Ash won't give me a yes/no, why this isn't even worth discussing (but discussing discussing it is) and why, if no, it's so bad.

From the beginning, I thought we were acknowledging that Scum do know 3 people not to target.  But 3/13 is not that bad!  And yeah, they don't have to consider whether or not to kill themselves, but if the hider hides behind scum, they are instalynched!  BUT IF AND ONLY IF WE KNOW WHO THEY WERE HIDING BEHIND.

This seems very important to me, and I don't understand why it is good town play to dismiss it out of hand without reasoning it through.  Why is having the hider die without giving us information somehow better other than Ash doesn't want to discuss it?!

[nkirbit]

Snow:  Scum know 6/13 (4/12 or 6/12, really, since there will have been a lynch.. 4 if correct 6 if incorrect) not to target:  Themselves, the the three people below them on the name list.  That's pretty high.