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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 147281 times)

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carstimon

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #225 on: October 24, 2011, 07:01:13 am »
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I've come to hate IGG on boards with no other cursers and no great trashing.  If no player goes for it, of course it's fine.  But if my opponent starts grabbing them, I have to, because I don't want to end up with say 8 curses.  And then if we split 5/5 on them, we both have bad decks with 5 extra copper and 5 extra curses, and 2 piles are out, so we have to start rushing for VP.  It makes the game not that interesting in the end.
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mnavratil

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #226 on: October 24, 2011, 12:08:44 pm »
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I have been reading this thread with interest, but had to chime in on the discussion of IGG.  The last few games I have played with it have been to great effect.

I feel playing IGG is better as a rush strategy similar to gardens.

My algorithm is to buy as many IGGs as possible (open silver/silver, or IGG/esate). Take exactly the amount of copper you need to get to 5 to buy the next IGG. If you can get to 8 by taking the coppers, do so and buy a province. When all the IGGs are gone rush estates/duchies for the 3-pile. I find games like this usually end in about 18 turns, and I can usually pick up around 2 provinces on the way.

This might only be working right now because people are getting blindsided by the rush (players have been not happy after the game with this strategy), but I feel it effectively destroys development of the opponents deck. Giving out a curse almost every turn is pretty hard to counter (even with moderate trashing) and all the extra coppers don't really hurt my own deck since I have no interest in development beyond buying duchies.

I would like to know if others have used any similar strategies to good effect (unfortunately none of my games are available due to councilroom not being updated with hinterlands yet).
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Geronimoo

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #227 on: October 24, 2011, 12:58:20 pm »
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The IGG rush seems pretty good, but I wouldn't open with Estate in case of $5/$2. And I wouldn't try it if Jack of all Trades was on the board either.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #228 on: October 24, 2011, 01:16:17 pm »
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I think IGG rush is good as long as there is no (good) trashing and no other cursing cards. As far as opening goes, you don't need to restrict to silver/silver. Since the IGGs are treasure, terminal draw cards are good, and it's actually reasonably easy to get to $8 with courtyard or smithy and IGGs. You can also open with an attack to slow your opponent down. Even something like navigator can be used and will be better than silver/silver.
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mnavratil

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #229 on: October 24, 2011, 01:57:08 pm »
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True that there will usually be a better $4 card on the table than silver, but the silver/silver opening was just to illustrate a generic case (coppersmith is an intriguing opener here) . The idea is to get to $5 ASAP.

Even in the presence of good trashing, I think this rush is viable. Assuming you get to $5 at somewhere from turns 3-5 you start giving the opponent a curse almost every turn (maybe every other turn worst case, but once this gets going it seems to get to $5 pretty consistently). This compares favorably to ambassador, which can overwhelm chapel as a trasher.

Also, for the 5/2 case (with no good $2 available) I think it is better to open IGG/copper than IGG/-. Counting IGG as $2, you get $10/12 cards for a treasure density of .833. For IGG/- you get $9/11 cards for a treasure density of .818. Treating IGG as $1 + 1 copper also gives similar numbers at 11/13 = .846 vs 10/12 = .833. Though these don't really take effect until the reshuffle. I think it is just easier to treat IGG like a silver early on in terms of getting to $5 consistently.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #230 on: October 24, 2011, 02:29:17 pm »
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True that there will usually be a better $4 card on the table than silver, but the silver/silver opening was just to illustrate a generic case (coppersmith is an intriguing opener here) . The idea is to get to $5 ASAP.
I don't think coppersmith is a good opener here because it doesn't help you get to $5. You're probably better off opening silver/silver and then adding the coppersmith later.

Quote
Even in the presence of good trashing, I think this rush is viable. Assuming you get to $5 at somewhere from turns 3-5 you start giving the opponent a curse almost every turn (maybe every other turn worst case, but once this gets going it seems to get to $5 pretty consistently). This compares favorably to ambassador, which can overwhelm chapel as a trasher.
The point about trashing is not just that they can get rid of the curses in a timely manner, but that they can use the trashing to get into a really strong deck that might be able to produce enough provinces in time to beat your rush. With ambassador, you're constantly giving junk, but can at the same time buy stuff for yourself. With IGG you can't buy anything other than IGGs. Meanwhile, they can be buying engine cards.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #231 on: October 24, 2011, 02:58:54 pm »
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I think the general assessment is correct, that IGG in a board with no trashing can be a superb attack/rush. The best counter to it, is to simply rush it yourself and really this is my problem with IGG. It's one of those cards that once your opponent dips into the cesspool, that's where you need to swim as well.
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ftl

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #232 on: October 24, 2011, 03:01:35 pm »
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I think the general assessment is correct, that IGG in a board with no trashing can be a superb attack/rush. The best counter to it, is to simply rush it yourself and really this is my problem with IGG. It's one of those cards that once your opponent dips into the cesspool, that's where you need to swim as well.

Isn't that true of any cursing card on a board with no trashing, though?
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #233 on: October 24, 2011, 03:25:22 pm »
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Isn't that true of any cursing card on a board with no trashing, though?

It is, but I think the difference though is that if Chapel is on the board I'm still buying Witch, I am not sure however if I am buying IGG.
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Epoch

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #234 on: October 24, 2011, 03:45:20 pm »
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It is, but I think the difference though is that if Chapel is on the board I'm still buying Witch, I am not sure however if I am buying IGG.

But that's not what you were saying was the problem.  You said that the best counter to it was simply to rush it yourself, and that you had to swim in the "cesspool" yourself.  Which, as ftl correctly points out, is almost always true of all the consistent cursers.

Now you seem to be saying that the problem is that IGG is sufficiently weak, compared to other cursers, that you DON'T always get it.  Which one is the problem?  Is the problem that you always have to get it, or that it's not good enough to always get?
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #235 on: October 24, 2011, 03:59:21 pm »
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I'm saying both.

I am saying that with IGG, you get into this race of a card that's slow and expensive, but a necessary arms war in a board with no trashing. In a board with Witch, I'll take the Witch.
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mnavratil

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #236 on: October 24, 2011, 04:20:56 pm »
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I think in a board with no (or light) trashing, IGG can give out curses significantly faster than witches, and is the better curser (solo games show all the curses to the opponent in 13-16 turns, this is almost a curse per turn, every turn, after turn 3!).  The downside of course, is that your deck is now geared towards $5 a hand, rather than $8.

With decent trashing the witch becomes much better because, +2 cards is good even after the curses are gone.

The endgames of both these scenarios play out very differently, I think. After an IGG rush you pretty much have to rush a thrid pile (assuming both IGG and curses are gone), where with witches you probably still have 2-piles left to deplete and have to aim for provinces.
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Epoch

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #237 on: October 24, 2011, 04:31:36 pm »
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I'm saying both.

They're mutually contradictory.  The problem can not be that the card is so good that it's a must-buy and at the same time so bad that you don't know whether or not to buy it.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #238 on: October 24, 2011, 04:38:48 pm »
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They are absolutely NOT contradictory, they are just separate, distinct points.

I am saying Witch is a stronger card.

I am also saying that IGG forces you to buy a 5$ over and over again, while the Witch war is a faster game, because while the curses slow you down, the IGG war is played by constantly spending 5$ on a Curse attack. IGG games force your purchasing on IGG - almost exclusively - for the first 12-14 turns.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #239 on: October 24, 2011, 04:49:38 pm »
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If I'm understanding correctly, I think the complaint is not about the overall strength or weakness of the card, but about the fact that it may lead to games one might consider boring, where players just buy all the IGGs then all the duchies. When witch is around, everyone buys 1-2 of them, but then they move on to buy other stuff, which potentially leads to a more interesting game.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #240 on: October 24, 2011, 04:56:19 pm »
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If I'm understanding correctly, I think the complaint is not about the overall strength or weakness of the card, but about the fact that it may lead to games one might consider boring, where players just buy all the IGGs then all the duchies. When witch is around, everyone buys 1-2 of them, but then they move on to buy other stuff, which potentially leads to a more interesting game.

Yeah, exactly, that's part of what I'm saying.

I'm also saying that in a game with Witch and IGG, I think I'll go Witch, I think I'll lose the Curse war (probably 6-4 or 7-3, but my deck is probably ahead in Provinces by the time you turn your attention to Dutchies. I could be dead-wrong on this, and solo games don't really help to decide. IGG is a painful, slow Curse war. Witch games are a less painful game, because you are not channeled into a single pathway, you get your Witch and you move on to dealing with the rest of the board.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #241 on: October 24, 2011, 05:19:46 pm »
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IGG is a painful, slow Curse war.
I would argue that it's not slow at all. Sea hag leads to painful slow games since sea hag provides no buying power. IGG is basically $2. IGG+3x copper buys an IGG or duchy. 2xIGG+1 copper buys an IGG or duchy. Haven't really played any IGG races (since other people seem to ignore them too often), but I think 2 player IGG races shouldn't go more than typical games (15-16 turn range, depending on what cards are available for the opening buys).
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 05:27:35 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #242 on: October 24, 2011, 05:34:06 pm »
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IGG is a painful, slow Curse war.
I would argue that it's not slow at all. Sea hag leads to painful slow games since sea hag provides no buying power. IGG is basically $2. IGG+3x copper buys an IGG or duchy. 2xIGG+1 copper buys an IGG or duchy. Haven't really played any IGG races (since other people seem to ignore them too often), but I think 2 player IGG races shouldn't go more than typical games (15-16 turn range).

Remember you will have Curses in your hand too. But if you can 3-pile in 16 turns, its faster than I thought. It would be fun to stage a Witch vs. IGG game. IGG forces you to buy one card for the first 5 or 6 turns, then get stuck with Copper (which you probably needed to keep up the war). Your next focus is Dutchies, some turns you get them, some turns you don't (the curses/coppers in your hand will prevent you). If your opponent get a Province or two in those turns, you're dead.

It's a slow painful game, perhaps "slow" isn't correct, it's a painful game, because not only are you forced to attack (like almost all Curse games) you are forced to do with a wide-deck and a singular card purchase, rather than a one-time purchase and then an engine.

It's a "dumber" game perhaps, and certainly less exciting, but perhaps its faster than I thought if you can 3-pile by turn 16 consistently.
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Geronimoo

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #243 on: October 24, 2011, 05:43:34 pm »
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Witch will just crush Ill-Gotten Gains rush.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #244 on: October 24, 2011, 05:48:58 pm »
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Witch will just crush Ill-Gotten Gains rush.

Cool, I thought so, so I am not a total idiot, just a "partial-idiot". :)
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #245 on: October 24, 2011, 06:05:18 pm »
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I think any curse-giver (besides torturer) should really mess up any sort of IGG rush, because the curse pile will run out before the IGGs. Then, when the curses are all gone, a 3-pile ending is not imminent, so you can't just buy duchies to close it out, and you actually probably have to get to $8.
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mith

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #246 on: October 24, 2011, 06:47:46 pm »
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In general, I think I agree with that... but I had to try it out today anyway.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201110/24/game-20111024-121537-039d4178.html

(Not optimal play on either side, I'm sure... but IGG is fast.)
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philosophyguy

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #247 on: October 24, 2011, 07:20:09 pm »
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One of the things I'm noticing about Highway is that the lack of +Buy (compared to Bridge) is actually a pretty significant deal. If you only have 1 Buy, dropping the cost of an item isn't as powerful. There are obvious exceptions: Grand Markets become much easier to buy, it avoids the pain of $7 hands, etc. But get a couple of +Buys, and Highway really shines, especially in multiples.
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jonts26

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #248 on: October 24, 2011, 07:32:31 pm »
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With a single buy and no gaining cards (ironworks et al.), Highway is functionally identical to peddler. Not the worst, but pretty bad at $5. That said, even without +buys, highway combos much better than bridge with cards like workshop and ironworks, because of the cantrip effect.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 07:34:45 pm by jonts26 »
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ftl

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #249 on: October 24, 2011, 07:38:43 pm »
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It's one of the many "+1 action +1 card +1 coin +1 gimmick" cards; for this one, the gimmick that differentiates it is that instead of the explicit +1 coin, it's "everything costs 1 less", which is equivalent unless you have +buys but becomes progressively more powerful as you add buys. If you DON'T have +buys, it's the same as a tournament before anyone's got any provinces, or a market without enough cash to use the +buy, or a peddler without any trash-for-benefit around, or a bazaar with no terminals,  and so on and so forth. Usable but not spectacular.

All those really shine when you can use their special ability. For Highway, that means having +buy or gainers.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 07:44:05 pm by ftl »
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