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[chwhite]

I tried the haven/jack of all trades strategy, and yeah, while it is indeed strong, the 12 turn 6 province is *far* from an usual case. You gotta realise that when people run from isotropic to post about a great new combo, regression from the mean kinda says it's not going to be as impressive in the long term.

Yeah, that six provinces in 13 turns game wasn't a two-card combo with Haven and JoaT.  It was a three-card combo- the contribution of getting Mint to clear out 5 coppers at once (coppers that Jack usually can't deal with) cannot be overstated.

[ChaosRed]

Right, so Cache helps early a lot (when the average value is less than Copper), and then middle-to-late the Copper in your hand is less of a hassle than you think, because usually HL provides ways of dealing with junk. I just solo'd a board with Cache, Hamlet and Ambassador and it worked fairly well. Perhaps it seemed to work well because Ambassador is just so strong, regardless. I wish I could contribute more to the discussion, but at my skill level, I really can't, so I need to defer to your opinion and others.

[DG]

The reason that I think Cache is a superb opener is that the two coppers actually help!

Similator says:
- woodcutter + treasure + 0 copper wins 37%
- woodcutter + treasure + 1 copper wins 30%
- woodcutter + treasure + 2 copper wins 24%
There is something else going that is making the cache+copper work for you, probably more than just a change in green card purchasing.

[Fangz]

Sorry for being posty mcposterson this morning, but I feel like I am getting a good grasp on Hinterlands now.  It is starting to really gel.

The reason that I think Cache is a superb opener is that the two coppers actually help!  The starting Estates control a smaller share of the deck and it becomes very easy indeed to buy early Gold.  Yes, the two coppers also bring down the value of the Cache itself and the early Gold purchases but that is mitigated by having a live "Gold" available starting on turn 3.

That's only true if the average value of your deck is less than a copper though. I mean, what cache is up against is the rest of the $5s, and given how great they are, I can't see the value of cache being so great. If the extra coppers really help so much, you'd be seeing a lot more merchant ship/copper openings, instead of it being generally thought better to open $5 card/nothing at all.

(boldings mine)
Yeah, and at the opening, the average value of your deck is less than a copper.

Not after you buy your opening cards, though. Compare the copper openings to the /- openings on councilroom. Even something crappy like royal seal does better than royal seal/copper.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I think it's not that the extra coppers are helping, it's that taking them is not that bad a price to pay for an early "gold". You wouldn't buy a copper by itself, but the average treasure value of the 3 cards you're getting with cache is $1.67 which is greater than the $1.6 you need for provinces. Of course, the coppers will make it really hard to build an engine, but if you're going for an action-light big money deck it doesn't seem that bad. I would hesitate to call it "superb" because there are a lot of really good 5s, but I guess in some situations it's probably at least "good".

[ChaosRed]

I think it's not that the extra coppers are helping, it's that taking them is not that bad a price to pay for an early "gold".

Yeah this is my take on it. Because Hinterlands is chalk full of discarding for draw/ability and full of upgrades, the average value of your deck is harder to measure, we've already established that broad decks have a lot of mitigation techniques in Hinterlands. And because Cache leap-frogs you in the early rounds (reducing the hits of Estate cards), the longer-term damage of the Copper is mitigated. Mostly because, they really aren't that big a deal when other cards are on the board.

Look, its Gold for 5, all for the price of having to smelt a few Copper later in the game, and they really do help in the first few turns.

Still, I think the argument (and the small amount of data I could mine with solo games) for the Jack was stronger. Jack really works on a lot of boards, especially any board where there isn't a strong, viable action-engine.

[ackack]

Not after you buy your opening cards, though. Compare the copper openings to the /- openings on councilroom. Even something crappy like royal seal does better than royal seal/copper.

I think there are a couple problems with this argument:

- The copper openings are quite rare and thus somewhat noisy compared to the other openings;
- While the openings are supposed to be corrections to your level, I would also guess that people opening copper are, on average, overrated for their level. Thus I think there's some serious negative selection bias going on in terms of assessing this.

Cache seems like yet another case of early deck thinning vs. early buying power where the value of early buying power is being underrated. I don't know how good I think it is as an opener but I wouldn't be surprised if it is indeed quite good.

[Mean Mr Mustard]

Average treasure worth of cards...

starting 10 = $.7

open Silver/Silver = $.78

open Cache/- =  $.82

[guided]

On a related note, for those who think Ill-Gotten Gains is a crummy card, try to think of the opportunity to gain a Copper in hand as a huge plus. Because it kind of is

Not that IGG is an overwhelming power card (I don't think it is), but it's quite good.

[dan11295]

Played with some of the cards, but not all yet...

IGG: Still torn on this one, had one game with poor trashing and no other curse givers where I bought IGG every time I got $5 and won a drawn out affair after giving my opponent 8 of the curses. Would think that in a game with better deck drawing, trashing or other curse givers such a strategy would fail miserably. In that game I rarely used it to gain coppers due to lack of good trashing.

Develop: Seems to be very deck situational. Needs cards worth grabbing at different costs to be any good. A kingdom full of 5's, which has alchemy cards or is full or terminals isn't very helpful. Would seem to be better as a mid game pickup in Colony games where KC is in play.

Haggler is great in Plat/Colony games, Buy the Platinum, gain a KC.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Average treasure worth of cards...

starting 10 = $.7

open Silver/Silver = $.78

open Cache/- =  $.82

To be fair though, there are plenty of openings that are better than silver/silver...

[timchen]

I opened 4/3 in first position earlier, and decided I would try a different approach, and bought a Noble Brigand.  I had no way of knowing that my opponent opened 2/5 and that my first buy would absolutely murder him by forcing him to open 2/3 instead.  A few games later I opened 4/3 Brigand in second seat against a guy who bought a Silver on turn 1 and stole his silver.  In both cases the fact that I got lucky really doesn't mean that much to me because the benefit of striking a extremely fast crippling blow outweighed the cost of whiffing.  Brigand is actually an extremely tactical card.  I have found it can disrupt a deck that is just starting to green just by the act of purchasing it at the right moment.

This really worries me. The problem is, altering the starting pattern randomly has such a huge effect on the game. If I am playing someone who beats me 70% of the time, sure I will open it every time. Otherwise, I just think the opportunity cost does not worth it. While the card can be useful in the early game, it helps the opponent when it misfires and does not help yourself all that much. And it is certainly more likely to misfire in the early game.

That being said, I think this card is actually somewhat balanced, the problem is just that it is balanced in a very swingy way.

[ackack]

That being said, I think this card is actually somewhat balanced, the problem is just that it is balanced in a very swingy way.

Maybe I'm having a run of bad luck but I feel like this is a pretty swingy expansion in general.

[Fabian]

Cache as a strongish opener makes some sense to me. I've considered the card to be basically crap until now, but I haven't thought much about it in a turn 1/2 context. Will try it out if given the opportunity, but I feel like a lot of other $5 cards are stronger still to open with on turns 1 and 2.

IGG is kinda neat, but not spectacular by any means. Having the option of gaining a Copper is indeed a huge plus; games don't go long enough for that Copper to be a super huge liability, compared to what benefits it gives you on the turn you need it.

Haven't considered Develop much as a mid/late game card, but I suppose it could be pretty good on occasion. As an opener, it seems to be terrible in my opinion.

Really liking Crossroads still. Not for every board obviously, but I've done some tremendeously powerful things with that card.

The FPS player in me can't resist a good Highway every now and then, but it's probably not the best choice a lot of the time. Who doesn't like powerful engines though?

Kinda really liking most (all?) of the $5 card drawers so far. Also Spice Merchant has felt like a great opener to me so far.

Just some quick thoughts after having played some games. I've done reasonably well, and quite like this set overall even though there are more than a few super boring cards, for sure.

[Jimmmmm]

On a related note, for those who think Ill-Gotten Gains is a crummy card, try to think of the opportunity to gain a Copper in hand as a huge plus. Because it kind of is

Not that IGG is an overwhelming power card (I don't think it is), but it's quite good.

The way I've been looking at it, IGG is worth it if I can get a much bigger benefit out of trashing it than my opponent can get out of trashing his Curse. The extra Copper in hand is like a Mine effect without spending the action, except it hurts your deck instead of helping it. Obviously it's great if your hand otherwise has $7, but no better for your current hand than if it was a Silver, and much worse for your deck. Also, if you're getting more Coppers out of your IGG, unless it's late enough in the game that it doesn't matter, surely you're messing up your own deck nearly as much as your opponent's?

Excepting cases such as Gardens or Copper strategies, surely IGG is strictly worse than Silver to have in your deck?

[DG]

Excepting cases such as Gardens or Copper strategies, surely IGG is strictly worse than Silver to have in your deck?

There are a lot of exceptions, all situational but they will crop up in play.

[Jimmmmm]

Of course, but in most situations you'd rather just have the Silver. I'm not saying it's a "crummy" card, I'm just yet to be convinced that it's worth it in the absence of a good trash for benefit card.

[guided]

Of course, but in most situations you'd rather just have the Silver. I'm not saying it's a "crummy" card, I'm just yet to be convinced that it's worth it in the absence of a good trash for benefit card.

You get a card that's (frankly) much better than Copper, while your opponent gets a Curse. That's really good! The downside is that $5 is a pretty high price tag.

Yes, you would usually rather have a Silver in your deck than an IGG. But Silver doesn't give away Curses. I would argue if you take away the on-gain effect IGG is a totally solid $2-value card.

[AJD]

I would argue if you take away the on-gain effect IGG is a totally solid $2-value card.

Hmm, really? The obvious point of comparison is Fool's Gold, and seems a lot better: IGG is $1 with a possibility of $1 more if you accept a penalty, while Fool's Gold is $1 with a possibility of $3 more if you have good deck management, and no penalty.

[WanderingWinder]

I would argue if you take away the on-gain effect IGG is a totally solid $2-value card.

Hmm, really? The obvious point of comparison is Fool's Gold, and seems a lot better: IGG is $1 with a possibility of $1 more if you accept a penalty, while Fool's Gold is $1 with a possibility of $3 more if you have good deck management, and no penalty.

But it's much easier to get a deck where the IGG is useful than where the fool's gold is. Fool's gold you really need to build around. IGG you don't. I'm pretty much in agreement with guided on this.

[dan11295]

Regarding Highway, obviously without a +buy it doesnt do that much, but you can go to town with a drawer with a +buy. Workers Village and Market work welll, even better if you have good trashing. A timely Inn buy (or two) doesn't hurt either if its on the board. Had someone use Smugglers against me well using Highway as an enabler so he could smuggle Provinces from me..grrr.. The non-termimal aspect of Highway makes this more viable than trying it with Bridge.

[Fabian]

If IGG cost $2 and had no on-gain curse, I can't really see me ever buying it outside of Gardens decks. Clearly guided and WW are very smart cookies though, so I'm not sure what I'm missing. I mean, I think Fool's Gold kinda sucks, but at least it has some sort of engine potential; I just don't see the $2 cost IGG (basically) ever doing anything good. Kind of an uninteresting discussion though, I guess

[dondon151]

Consider it to be a cheap, gimped Silver. If Silver is worth $3, then a non-cursing IGG should logically be worth less.

[DG]

Consider the timing of the ill gotten gains. If you buy it early then your opponent gets very quick deterioration of the deck, perhaps before they've even taken a turn. If you buy it late then perhaps the game will end before you shuffle the gained copper into the deck. As with many hinterlands cards, the value of the card depends upon how and when you get it.

[dan11295]

Scheme has to be contender for one of my favorite $3 cards. Playing that Moneylender two turns in a row early comes in handy. Had a game where I used 2 schemes to Ghost Ship a guy 4 turns in a row in the mid-game