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Author Topic: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list  (Read 147284 times)

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play2draw

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #275 on: October 25, 2011, 12:12:58 pm »
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I finally got to play a game with Highway, Workshop, and Smugglers. Gaining three Provinces in one turn with Workshops and Smugglers is a rather satisfying experience.
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LastFootnote

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #276 on: October 25, 2011, 01:03:42 pm »
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It's interesting that, with the exception of cards that give +1 Buy, none of the Hinterlands cards really combo well with Highway. As I see it, the main advantage of Highway over Bridge is that you can chain a few before playing Feast/Workshop/Ironworks/Saboteur/Smugglers/University/Horn of Plenty without having to buy and activate a big +Actions/+Cards engine first.
It's definitely a card that would feel more at home in prosperity.
Well, Prosperity has a lot of extra Buys available, but Highway really hurts cards like Bishop and Forge.
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #277 on: October 25, 2011, 01:17:41 pm »
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Well, Prosperity has a lot of extra Buys available, but Highway really hurts cards like Bishop and Forge.

Bishop certainly, but it doesn't quite hurt Forge as much if you play sufficiently many Highways that there are good cards at $0, as then you can forge coppers into much better cards.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #278 on: October 25, 2011, 01:33:42 pm »
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I need basic practice, but you can't get in isotropic, it's not friendly to new players. I was getting my lungs handed to me in 15 turns, very discouraging.
While I agree that this can be discouraging, it doesn't mean you can't learn from the experience. I find that the games where I get smoked are the games where I learn the most -- if I got crushed it's either because there's a combination I didn't spot, a tweak I didn't incorporate, a strategy I chose not to pursue, or (sometimes) just plain dumb luck. I try to find the former and avoid chalking up losses to the latter.

About half the time I also find that people like discussing their moves after the game. If you know you're going to lose, maybe try chatting with your opponent to see if s/he's willing to talk about what s/he did right and you did wrong? My experience is that roughly a third or half of the players I play enjoy post-game chatter. Often these will reveal valuable strategy nuggets (just the other day someone scolded me for not picking up a watchtower on a torturer/village board) or confirm your own analysis (I will often admit that I won via luck, on say an early gold or $5 buy).
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jonts26

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #279 on: October 25, 2011, 01:37:53 pm »
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About half the time I also find that people like discussing their moves after the game. If you know you're going to lose, maybe try chatting with your opponent to see if s/he's willing to talk about what s/he did right and you did wrong?

This. I rarely initiate conversations on iso but I am more than willing to talk about strategy, and I'm sure a great many other people are too.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #280 on: October 25, 2011, 02:46:06 pm »
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About half the time I also find that people like discussing their moves after the game.

I think this is excellent advice, I do tend to engage the other opponent when I play. I find, (ironically perhaps), the very high-rated players are the most open to discussing strategy as the game winds down.

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rod-

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #281 on: October 25, 2011, 05:38:43 pm »
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About half the time I also find that people like discussing their moves after the game.
I think this is excellent advice, I do tend to engage the other opponent when I play. I find, (ironically perhaps), the very high-rated players are the most open to discussing strategy as the game winds down.
I don't see this as ironic at all.  If you don't think about the game, you'll never understand why you won/lost, and if you dont understand, you can't improve.  What would be ironic is if the worst players were the most likely to talk about their play, and think that they did everything right. 
Typical exchange:
Me: "You know, you don't have to buy something every turn (after opponent buys a copper for no apparent reason)
Them:  "I have my reasons"
(Yes, i know there are reasons to buy coppers.  I've done it myself many times.  I'm talking about boards where those reasons don't exist)
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olneyce

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #282 on: October 25, 2011, 06:41:00 pm »
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Talking as the game winds down is great.  I'm often very impressed with how productive and fun that can be.  For a random game, played with people that you'll never meet and may never even play again on Isotropic, it's a pretty friendly community. 

The worst was today when I was playing someone who a) started out buying a bunch of villages, b) waited until turn 6 or something to buy a chapel, and c) was consistently using his pawns as simple cantrips even though he had tons of extra actions from all his villages.  I tried to helpfully point out that this was suboptimal strategy.  And then promptly lost.  Doh!
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biopower

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #283 on: October 25, 2011, 06:49:42 pm »
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Typical exchange:
Me: "You know, you don't have to buy something every turn (after opponent buys a copper for no apparent reason)
Them:  "I have my reasons"
(Yes, i know there are reasons to buy coppers.  I've done it myself many times.  I'm talking about boards where those reasons don't exist)

This is the reason I rarely talk about strategy with lower ranked players unless the opponent initiates conversation. I've had too many a game where village idiots got offended when I pointed out that there was no point buying so many villages without a terminal.
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ChaosRed

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #284 on: October 25, 2011, 08:14:25 pm »
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Well speaking as a noob, I appreciate all the advice I can get. I tend to foil myself the most thinking there's a cool victory condition up there. Like Silk Road...it just seems to lure me into a death trap every time its on the board.

"I'll Workshop my way to Silk Road victory!" - ChaosRed creating the seeds of his own destruction
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #285 on: October 25, 2011, 08:31:55 pm »
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Workshopping to a silk road victory might be a great strat.
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jonts26

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #286 on: October 25, 2011, 08:33:57 pm »
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Workshop/silk road should work exactly like workshop gardens. Uncontested the silk roads should wind up at about 4 points each by game end. Maybe more than gardens. Contested, the silk roads will be worth less, but your opponent won't be getting any big point VP cards either.
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danshep

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #287 on: October 25, 2011, 09:06:44 pm »
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I've always been a fan of the ironworks + great hall/island trick, but getting highways to let you pull it with nobles is pretty sweet, especially once you start drawing nobles with it to play even more highways and ironworks your way through the provinces (well... only two before the game three-piled on nobles/highways/ironworks, but that'll do).
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Anon79

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #288 on: October 25, 2011, 10:19:14 pm »
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ChaosRed: of course you're not a good player yet, you only have 125 logged games. None of us were good players at 125 games. Just keep playing more and learning each game!
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rinkworks

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #289 on: October 26, 2011, 11:08:17 am »
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This is from a ways back in the thread, but I remember someone saying Margrave might become the new default Smithy component of a +Actions/+Cards engine.  Certainly it's good in that role, but it just occurred to me that Margrave helps your opponent if you play it additional times after that first time.  This makes it almost the exact opposite of Torturer, which is only an irritant the first time but really hurts in multiples.

I'm sure Margrave still gets the job done, but this makes me think Margrave is maybe better on its own than in an engine.  Better still, if there is the option, build a Village/Torturer engine with a single Margrave:  play the Margrave first, then Torturers thereafter.  That maximizes your attack power AND gives you a +Buy.  Interested to try that out now.
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #290 on: October 26, 2011, 12:00:59 pm »
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I'm sure Margrave still gets the job done, but this makes me think Margrave is maybe better on its own than in an engine.  Better still, if there is the option, build a Village/Torturer engine with a single Margrave:  play the Margrave first, then Torturers thereafter.  That maximizes your attack power AND gives you a +Buy.  Interested to try that out now.
Good luck always having your Margrave in hand to play first if you only have one in your deck ;)

Margrave is among the weakest of the discard attacks. Its main strength as an engine card is the +Buy (combined with a halfway-decent attack).
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Epoch

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #291 on: October 26, 2011, 12:04:55 pm »
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I've played a couple of games with Village/Margrave engines now.  My sense is: don't fret the help that additional Margraves give your opponent.  If you've got a functioning cards/actions engine up with extra buys and your opponent has a 3 card hand, yeah, sure, they may be three pretty damn good cards, but you're doing pretty well.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #292 on: October 26, 2011, 12:14:32 pm »
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The attack function of Margrave is exactly the same as if you played a Council Room, then Militia.  A stack of Margraves is the same as a stack of Council Rooms, then a Militia at the end, except that it's marginally better because your opponent has to draw and discard each time and may not be able to tailor the best three-card hand.

So, sure, the attack function of Margrave doesn't measure up to, say, Torturer.  But it's plenty strong enough to be the backbone of a +Actions/+Cards engine- it attacks, draws, *and* gives +Buy all at once, something no other card does.  It may not be quite as powerful a card-drawer as the Council Room/Militia duo, but the fact that it only takes one card to do what would normally require two more than makes up for it.
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ehunt

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #293 on: October 26, 2011, 12:16:43 pm »
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edit: this isn't a response to chwhite but was posted simultaneously. now i will read his post.

Margrave is like council room + militia that you don't have to set up but that doesn't give you two dollars. Council room + militia has always been a pretty weak combo; militia mitigates the damage from council room, but "the best 3 out of the top 6 cards in my deck" is often not much worse than, and occasionally better than, "the top 5 cards of my deck," as you quickly learn when someone plays this combo against you. Since the combo requires setting up, it's rarely worth going for (except with fishing village - I've also had some luck with golem + exactly one CR + exactly one militia + no other actions).

Margrave solves the latter problem, but not the former. I'd think of it less as an attack and more of a smithy + buy + (weirdness that's typically a little good for you but may help your opponent).
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #294 on: October 26, 2011, 12:22:07 pm »
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So CR data on all the Hinterlands cards is now up.

Looking at the global stats, there are a grand total of only six cards with a better than even Win Rate With: Border Village, Margrave, Cartographer, Embassy, Stables, and IGG.  Jack of All Trades is even at 1.00/1.00 and the rest are in negative territory.

Yep, sure seems like a pack of underpowered trap cards to me.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #295 on: October 26, 2011, 12:27:04 pm »
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Yep, sure seems like a pack of underpowered trap cards to me.

And/or they take more skill to play well and/or people haven't figured out how to use them properly yet and/or people are buying them more than they otherwise would because they're still new.
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chwhite

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #296 on: October 26, 2011, 12:29:10 pm »
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Yep, sure seems like a pack of underpowered trap cards to me.

And/or they take more skill to play well and/or people haven't figured out how to use them properly yet and/or people are buying them more than they otherwise would because they're still new.

These two explanations are not mutually exclusive. :P 

For example, Inn can be really strong when you have a specific plan for the when-gain effect and can perfectly set up your next hand, but is going to be a seductive waste of a $5 buy most of the time.  It's great when you can use it well, but maybe it's even better when you don't need to use it at all.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 12:32:06 pm by chwhite »
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guided

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #297 on: October 26, 2011, 12:39:28 pm »
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To be sure, I think Margrave is now clearly the 2nd strongest Smithy variant (after Torturer) for building an engine with multiple copies.
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Copernicus

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #298 on: October 26, 2011, 12:49:20 pm »
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Is there a way to see Council Room stats on a week-by-week basis?  It would be interesting to see the development of Hinterlands as it gets incorporated into the game.
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ehunt

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Re: [spoiler] Full Hinterlands card list
« Reply #299 on: October 26, 2011, 12:56:00 pm »
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I can't believe Jack of All Trades is even. I think it's probably the best 4 in dominion.
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