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[nkirbit]

Oh, it's lovers only.  Hm.  Okay.

[nkirbit]

Okay, so here's what I think about Sudgy:

We have the Day1 case, which seems okay, but it's really not any stronger than the case we had on Xeiron, for example, before he claimed.

We have Eevee claiming that Sudgy is scum.  This is pretty obviously a huge deal, and leads us to choosing between Eevee and Sudgy.

We also have Eevee claiming to be Sudgy's lover.  If Eevee is town, we can believe this claim.

I know Sudgy has appeared scummy, and could easily be scum, but Eevee has done things that have appeared scummy to myself as well.  Not switching to raerae at the end of day2 was scummy to me, for example.

Furthermore, I still doubt Eevee's claim, because I'm choosing to believe the storyline that doesn't have a mafia member admitting to a non-mafia member that they're mafia.  I just don't believe anyone would do that.

If we lynch Eevee, and we're wrong, we still may have Sudgy commit suicide regardless.  If we're wrong, we know that Eevee is either Julia/Sylvia, and that may be good enough.

For me, the chance that Eevee is lying is still significantly larger than the chance that we mislynch Eevee and don't get sudgy, so I'm going to keep my focus on trying to lynch Eevee.

[nkirbit]

Re-reading TA's lynch, it seems that the entire case on him by Eevee/Mail-Mi/Sudgy was that he was pushing for a lynch of claimed lovers.  Eevee and Mail-mi immediately voted one after the other, Sudgy followed, then after quite a while you hammered.  Not sure what to make of that wagon.

[EFHW]

Here are a couple more reasons Eevee et al suspected TA. 

I wanted to remind myself of the reasons Eevee suspected TA and raerae.  I see several re: TA, but his scumread on raerae eludes me.

if raerae is not scum here then I don't know who ever was scum anywhere!

look, anything that happened before tonight is not even relevant. We got scum to paint themselves in the corner with ta continuing to push for sudgy while accepting me as an ic.

Here he says TA is scummy because of the contradiction of believing Eevee was town and continuing to believe sudgy was scum.

I accept you for a misguided IC!
Sorry, why would Sudgy be alive?
I hate to ask you to claim more, but did you prevent Sudgy from being killed last night?
If no one can claim any reason why Sudgy would be alive, then that means it's more likely he's scum.

You have been fishing for me to claim more and more about my role all day, way more than I was comfortable claiming. Now that I strongly suspect, dare I say know, that you are scum, I refuse to answer such inquiries and advice all other townies to do the same.
It's pretty obvious there is a plethora of roles that could cause the target of a night kill to live though.

Here he accuses TA of rolefishing.

Eevee and mail-mi voted TA in quick succession:

Vote: TA Scum is really trying to push this lover lunch.

Vote: TA

Have we considered an Eevee/mail-mi team?  I'll look into that next.

Eevee - please say more about why you suspected raerae.  Sorry if I missed it.  Reading through the last part of Day 2, I couldn't find anything.

[EFHW]

I'm going to be afk for the rest of the day.  I'll check back in this evening.

[raerae]

Eevee - So you were allowed to send a reply PM to sudgy?

raerae - were you?

No, I was not allowed to reply.

[Eevee]

To people who think I'm just inventing this whisper, I'd like you to think about sudgy's reaction to me posting it. It wasn't "lies lies lies vote eevee!", it was "what did you mean with your reply?". Only afterwards he started calling it a lie.

[raerae]

Raerae and Sudgy:  Did raerae reply to Sudgy's message?

I wasn't allowed to.  Never given that option.  I got the PM and the day opened immediately.

[nkirbit]

To people who think I'm just inventing this whisper, I'd like you to think about sudgy's reaction to me posting it. It wasn't "lies lies lies vote eevee!", it was "what did you mean with your reply?". Only afterwards he started calling it a lie.

Yes, this is troubling.

[Eevee]

To people who think I'm just inventing this whisper, I'd like you to think about sudgy's reaction to me posting it. It wasn't "lies lies lies vote eevee!", it was "what did you mean with your reply?". Only afterwards he started calling it a lie.

Yes, this is troubling.

If I was scum and wanted to frame sudgy, do you think I would have chosen "he told me in a whisper" over say claiming to have a power role result or something?

[nkirbit]

I don't know.  You may or may not have.. I'm not going to speculate as to what a scum would or wouldn't do, because it's easy enough to do A and have the defense of "Well, wouldn't I do B instead if I were scum?".

Again, my desire to lynch you isn't entirely based on you having to be scum.  I think it may be correct even if there's a decent chance you're town.

[nkirbit]

My issues with your claim and sudgy's response:

We've seen a cleaner, well-thought out claim met with a messier response two times recently:  In pirates and mean girls.  Twice, we've lynched the second person, and twice, we've been wrong.  It's something to think about.

[Eevee]

I think this is a whole lot different than me versus galzria in pirates. I to this day don't know what was messy about my claim in pirates, I laid out all the facts and my reasons in my first post after seeing Galzria's claim. Here, sudgy doesn't even acknowledge the fact that I (allegedly) am lying about him basically claiming scum to me. Isn't that like, pretty huge?

Can't obviously talk about mean girls yet, can't wait until we can though..

[nkirbit]

So you think that Sudgy was unsure whether or not you were a survivor, and was holding out hope that you were and he could just win on the spot?

[nkirbit]

I think it's extremely sloppy play regardless of whether he's town or scum.  If he's town, he should have come out with the strategy of "deny, deny, deny", and if he's scum, he should have come out with the strategy of "deny, deny, deny."

I am unsure that it points more towards him being scum than town, though.  Maybe it does.

[Eevee]

So you think that Sudgy was unsure whether or not you were a survivor, and was holding out hope that you were and he could just win on the spot?

I don't know, I think maybe he thought I would be on his side. I don't know how he could after I posted his whisper publicly, but maybe he got confused.

[Eevee]

I agree to an extent, but I think for town the natural reaction is to deny (as in that case I would be lying). Scum sudgy has to form a strategy, something he didn't maybe think of when making that first post.

[nkirbit]

Man, I'm just having a hard time believing that Sudgy would, as scum, whisper a non-scum and tell him that he was scum, and then not have a plan for when that person revealed that information.  That's just monumentally bad play if that's in fact what happened, or the biggest WIFOM ever.

Sudgy stumbled, that's for sure.  I'm thinking the stumbling came because he was surprised and wasn't sure how to handle the situation.  For me, it seems much more likely that he was surprised by scum!eevee making a fake claim he wasn't expecting than town!eevee posting a real message.  I think he would have had a plan for the second.

[raerae]

Man, I'm just having a hard time believing that Sudgy would, as scum, whisper a non-scum and tell him that he was scum, and then not have a plan for when that person revealed that information.  That's just monumentally bad play if that's in fact what happened, or the biggest WIFOM ever.

Sudgy stumbled, that's for sure.  I'm thinking the stumbling came because he was surprised and wasn't sure how to handle the situation.  For me, it seems much more likely that he was surprised by scum!eevee making a fake claim he wasn't expecting than town!eevee posting a real message.  I think he would have had a plan for the second.

If sudgy were town and Eevee were lying scum, why didn't sudgy just post the real message?

[sudgy]

To people who think I'm just inventing this whisper, I'd like you to think about sudgy's reaction to me posting it. It wasn't "lies lies lies vote eevee!", it was "what did you mean with your reply?". Only afterwards he started calling it a lie.

I was trying to see how you would react.  As soon as I felt I had gotten enough, I said you were lying and such.

[sudgy]

Man, I'm just having a hard time believing that Sudgy would, as scum, whisper a non-scum and tell him that he was scum, and then not have a plan for when that person revealed that information.  That's just monumentally bad play if that's in fact what happened, or the biggest WIFOM ever.

Sudgy stumbled, that's for sure.  I'm thinking the stumbling came because he was surprised and wasn't sure how to handle the situation.  For me, it seems much more likely that he was surprised by scum!eevee making a fake claim he wasn't expecting than town!eevee posting a real message.  I think he would have had a plan for the second.

If sudgy were town and Eevee were lying scum, why didn't sudgy just post the real message?

I did.  Just after a bit.

[Eevee]

To people who think I'm just inventing this whisper, I'd like you to think about sudgy's reaction to me posting it. It wasn't "lies lies lies vote eevee!", it was "what did you mean with your reply?". Only afterwards he started calling it a lie.

I was trying to see how you would react.  As soon as I felt I had gotten enough, I said you were lying and such.

Why would you need a reaction? If I was lying, you would just instantly know I must be mafia.

[raerae]

Man, I'm just having a hard time believing that Sudgy would, as scum, whisper a non-scum and tell him that he was scum, and then not have a plan for when that person revealed that information.  That's just monumentally bad play if that's in fact what happened, or the biggest WIFOM ever.

Sudgy stumbled, that's for sure.  I'm thinking the stumbling came because he was surprised and wasn't sure how to handle the situation.  For me, it seems much more likely that he was surprised by scum!eevee making a fake claim he wasn't expecting than town!eevee posting a real message.  I think he would have had a plan for the second.

If sudgy were town and Eevee were lying scum, why didn't sudgy just post the real message?

I did.  Just after a bit.

I missed that...can you quote please?

[Eevee]

Sorry I was being so shady in what I was saying, I was trying to figure out if Eevee was a survivor (it seemed he should say but he didn't).  I think he isn't now (but please feel fine to correct me).

First, I missed a part of my PM that said my lovers can whisper me back.  I completely missed that when I read it, and I'm sorry.

So: I PMed Eevee, but not with that message.  I said:

"Since we both basically know each other is town (and we're flavorfully linked, so why not), we should try to coordinate our efforts."

So, his fabrication is a lie.  Vote: Eevee.  I'm pretty sure he claimed my lover as a fakeclaim to not get lynched.

This is his claim. Btw, sudgy, what do you claim I messaged you back?

[sudgy]

Sorry I was being so shady in what I was saying, I was trying to figure out if Eevee was a survivor (it seemed he should say but he didn't).  I think he isn't now (but please feel fine to correct me).

First, I missed a part of my PM that said my lovers can whisper me back.  I completely missed that when I read it, and I'm sorry.

So: I PMed Eevee, but not with that message.  I said:

"Since we both basically know each other is town (and we're flavorfully linked, so why not), we should try to coordinate our efforts."

So, his fabrication is a lie.  Vote: Eevee.  I'm pretty sure he claimed my lover as a fakeclaim to not get lynched.

This is his claim. Btw, sudgy, what do you claim I messaged you back?

The same thing you did.