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[EFHW]

I need to find scum though... and I have too many townreads.

Tell me about it!  I'm concerned because mail-mi is my top scum read, and he's not going to be around at deadline.  If he becomes the lynch, he would need to claim.  If I'm the only one interested in maybe lynching him, there's no issue.  If it looks likely, we might want to change the deadline for either earlier or later.

[ashersky]

As an addendum to shraeye's post, you are free to go read other games, ongoing or not, and use that information however you like.  Just don't post it here if those games are not finished.

[sudgy]

The (soft) deadline is coming up in two or three days, do we know who we want to lynch?  The only person that has come close is lio, but I don't know about him...

[Twistedarcher]

I need to find scum though... and I have too many townreads.

Tell me about it!  I'm concerned because mail-mi is my top scum read, and he's not going to be around at deadline.  If he becomes the lynch, he would need to claim.  If I'm the only one interested in maybe lynching him, there's no issue.  If it looks likely, we might want to change the deadline for either earlier or later.

I am in a different boat, I have a slight scum read on a few players. Ill post more later tonight on my reads.

[ashersky]

O, let us pay the time but needful woe,
Since it hath been beforehand with our griefs.


Vote Count Act I.IX:

liopoil (2): Twistedarcher, raerae
mail-mi (2): EFHW, sudgy

Not Voting (5): mail-mi, nkirbit, liopoil, xeiron, Eevee

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Act I ends on June 11 at 8:30 p.m.

5 days have passed.

[EFHW]

I'm looking forward to hearing more from everyone as the weekend ends and people come back from v/la's.  Especially Eevee, sudgy, and xeiron.  I had forgotten sudgy and xeiron were playing, not a good sign! 

[sudgy]

I'm looking forward to hearing more from everyone as the weekend ends and people come back from v/la's.  Especially Eevee, sudgy, and xeiron.  I had forgotten sudgy and xeiron were playing, not a good sign!

I've been posting a fair bit recently.

[mail-mi]

I have... no idea who to lynch. I have a few ideas of who not to lynch, tho. First, me. Second, nkirbit. I think he's acting very townie and we would be stupid to lynch him.

Lio, maybe a lynch. I just don't know.

[Twistedarcher]

My top scumread right now is Nkirbit. Looking back over his posts this game, while he’s trying hard to seem as if he’s getting the game going, scumhunting, he’s done remarkably little. He’s posting his views, to get them out there, but then not supporting them in any manner whatsoever, whether it’s by voting or by actually hunting for evidence.

He started out by doing a quick re-read. He’s a brief recap of his views:
Raerae: Asking good questions, moving town forward, townread.
TA: Null read, hasn’t had many opinions
Mail-mi: Ignoring questions, but would scum do that? Could see him as town or scum, so null read
EFHW: Vote on Xeiron was weird… “off and artificial”
Eevee: His scum view on Eevee is partially due to him being away, but also for a defense of EFHW and a vote on Liopoil. Scumread
Sudgy: Townread simply because of past game
Xeiron: Scumread for lurking
Liopoil: “Scumread, for sure”, in Nkirbit’s words.

Yet he backs off of Liopoil when he gets to 3 votes, with this post:

I'm also uneasy with how this whole situation is developing.  Eevee, Raerae, and TA have already voted for Lio, Sudgy has stated intent to, I've said he's one of my two top reads, and EFHW has previously voted Lio.  So out of the 8 non-lio players, 6 have already either voted for him, say they're going to, or said he's one of their top scum reads.  I don't think we'd see such a strong support for this lynch if Lio was scum.

This reads to me as if he’s trying to distance himself from a lynch if it happens. He went from having a “scumread for sure”, even after myself and Raerae had voted, to distancing himself from the lynch very quickly. It sounds like he made a read on Lio that several others had stated, then realized that supporting his lynch would put him in a scummy position (if Lio’s town) so quickly backed off.


The main point, though, is that when Nkirbit made his list of reads, he had four ‘scum reads’: EFHW, Liopoil, Eevee, and Xeiron. He’s backed off on Lio, but he still should have three scum reads. Yet he’s been active, and posting, and has done nothing to push any of his reads. If he’s town, I can’t imagine him not trying to scumhunt more!!

Nkirbit just reads to me as someone who’s trying to get his views out there so he has views out there, but trying to avoid any suspicion by joining a wagon.

Vote: Nkirbit

[ashersky]

The clamorous owl, that nightly hoots and wonders
At our quaint spirits.


Vote Count Act I.X:

liopoil (1): raerae
mail-mi (2): EFHW, sudgy
nkirbit (1): Twistedarcher

Not Voting (5): mail-mi, nkirbit, liopoil, xeiron, Eevee

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Act I ends on June 11 at 8:30 p.m.

[nkirbit]

TA:  I've been extremely busy.  I spent all day saturday at a graduation party, and all day today working on my resume and looking for jobs.  I have been checking in and answered the questions that were asked for me, but other than that, I haven't been around much.
 
The reason I never joined Lio's wagon is because Lio was at L-2 already, and I didn't want to put him to L-1.  I backed off because I was worrying that his wagon didn't feel like that of a scum.  I know you disagree with me, but that's how I felt, and how I still feel.  I know Eevee has agreed with me.  I wasn't trying to distance myself from a mislynch, I was trying to avoid one!

That being said, it's not like I'm convinced Lio is town.  I was just worried that we were heading towards a lio lynch without time to discuss other options, and wanted to stop that.

As for not making a case on a player...  It's day one, and the reason I haven't made a case on a player is that I don't have one!

[Twistedarcher]

You have your reads...EFHW, Eevee, Xeiron. Of course they're D1 reads and not rock solid, but if you feel they are more likely scum than anyone else (which you have stated that you feel), then try to bring people around to your point of view! You have said you wanted to get the game moving but didn't know how, this is a way to do it!

I was wrong when I said earlier you were playing proactively, you are playing much more cautiously than I thought you were before..

[nkirbit]

It's frustrating not being able to talk about Mean Girls.

The reason that I haven't been stridently trying to bring people around to my view is that I'm not very confident in them.  I think they are more likely to be.  But say, by default, a person has a 25% chance to be scum (2 scum in 8, not including me.. if there are 2 scum.  The exact percentage doesn't matter).  My odds right now are at like 29/28/27/26/25/24/23/22 or some absurdly small range like that.  They are very small.  I don't really trust myself as a scum hunter at this point.  I'm still gathering information.

Keep in mind that I'll be around at the deadline, and will have more information then.  You could say that I could be voting someone to put pressure on them and create reactions, and perhaps you would be correct.  But I haven't, because I'm worried about mislynching.

I don't see why I should be expected to argue heavily for cases that I'm just not that sure of.

[nkirbit]

You have your reads...EFHW, Eevee, Xeiron. Of course they're D1 reads and not rock solid, but if you feel they are more likely scum than anyone else (which you have stated that you feel), then try to bring people around to your point of view! You have said you wanted to get the game moving but didn't know how, this is a way to do it!

I was wrong when I said earlier you were playing proactively, you are playing much more cautiously than I thought you were before..

By doing what?  Stating why I had the views I had on those players?  I did that.  Would you prefer me to bully other players until they agreed?

This is starting to sound more and more like a case of a player starting at a conclusion then looking for evidence to support that conclusion.  I think it's ridiculous to look at my posts so far and claim I've been any less proactive than yourself.  I stated a read on each player, and why I had that read.  I didn't vote for Lio because raerae had interrupted my posts by putting Lio at L-2, and we clearly don't want to put a player at L-1 without having more time to talk it out.

I just reread you.  Before your case on me, you weren't any more proactive than I was.  And I guess that if you looked at Lio, or mail-mi, or sudgy, or eevee, or xeiron, you would find the same lack of proactiveness.  I'm not sure about EFHW and raerae off the top of my head, but they may be that way as well.  It's day one!  It looked like you had me out as a target for a possible mislynch, then decided to build a case on me with your conclusion in mind.

I think the reason that I'm the target here is because EFHW pointed out a great point against me:  When I made those two posts in a row.  I'll be the first to admit that that was legitimately scummy, and I was very careful in how I handled that situation.  I don't know if I did it well or not, but it's out there, and I think it's better evidence than anyone else has on them.

So basically, what I think happened here was:

1:  EFHW finds a scummy-looking series of posts that I made.  (They were legitimately scummy-looking, I agree, and am surprised more people didn't make an issue of them, to be honest).
2:  scum!twisted realizes that he's going to be away for the soft deadline, and wants to get his input in by making a solid case before he leaves.  He scans the thread, and picks his target!
3:  He makes a case, which he thinks looks okay, but I think is horrible.  You could have inserted several other players instead of me and the case would have read the same.
4:  He doesn't include the point that EFHW made earlier.  He hopes that after he makes his case, others will reread me and pick up on it, and connect the dots.

In summary, I think your case is bad because it's very vague.  You could have made the same case against any number of players (including yourself!).  I think it's fishy that you chose to make this case against a player who had an example of being scummy in the past, rather than someone else.

Vote: TwistedArcher

Why did you choose to reread me rather than someone else?  As you said yourself: 

I was wrong when I said earlier you were playing proactively, you are playing much more cautiously than I thought you were before..

You had me as playing proactively earlier, and then changed your mind (presumably by rereading).  Why did you reread me, and not another player you had a town read on?

[nkirbit]

I am mixed on Nkirbit. While he's definitely active and trying to move the game further, he would definitely become more active rather than less active as scum. He's playing very, very proactively at parts.

I don't know why you think I would become more active as scum.  Was this just a guess?  And how do you feel about this statement now that I've been less proactive, by whatever inconsistent definition you decided to use.

Is it worth noting that mail-mi still hasn't answered raerae's question, despite being online since the point at which he said he would?

I actually don't find him particularly scummy for it.  I think a mafia would be much more certain to not let answering a question that they were asked, then reasked, than a town would.  It's just much more reasonable for a townie to forget to answer a question.

My question for you - why were you uncomfortable pointing out something that might make mail-mi look scummy, to the point where you made an extra post saying you didn't find him scummy?

I think the first post was incomplete.  I generally don't like when players bring up issues without giving their views on it... it comes off to me as trying to direct the conversation a certain direction without having it be tied back to you.  I think it would be hypocritical of me to not meet my own standards, so I added more.  I would have made it one post had I done it again, but I can't edit, so double-posting was the best I could do.

This seems like you're a little too over-concerned with someone calling you out for doing exactly that.

So you acknowledged that you saw this post, and found it scummy, yet you didn't bring it up in your case against me.  Why not?  Did you forget it?  I find it hard to believe, as you said you just re-read, and you had trouble believing that Lio could miss several posts.  If you're town!TA hunting scum, don't you want to dump all the evidence you have into your case?  Why did you leave this out?

I have a question for Ashersky (and I guess Raerae can weigh in too):

I want to look back at Nkirbit's behavior in Mean Girls, since it's his only other game. But the game's still ongoing, although he's dead. Am I allowed to look at his behavior there and compare it to his behavior here, and post about it? Or is that taboo since Mean Girls is still ongoing?

Why was this a post and not a PM?  Did you want this to be public information so that someone else would beat you to making a case against me?  I guess no one took your bait, so you had to do it yourself.

[EFHW]

I'm looking forward to hearing more from everyone as the weekend ends and people come back from v/la's.  Especially Eevee, sudgy, and xeiron.  I had forgotten sudgy and xeiron were playing, not a good sign!

I've been posting a fair bit recently.

You made a couple posts yesterday.  It was before those posts that I realized I had forgotten for the moment that you were playing, and that was because you haven't been expressing any opinions or engaging with anyone else.  Even this post defending yourself doesn't really participate. 

[Eevee]

I'm back home! Expect a catch up post during the next 5 hours.

[sudgy]

Vote: nkirbit

I agree with TA's case, and I feel like he has been over-defending.

[nkirbit]

My top scumread right now is Nkirbit. Looking back over his posts this game, while he’s trying hard to seem as if he’s getting the game going, scumhunting, he’s done remarkably little. He’s posting his views, to get them out there, but then not supporting them in any manner whatsoever, whether it’s by voting or by actually hunting for evidence.

I haven't been hunting for evidence?  I'm sorry, this is blatantly wrong.  I re-read the entire thread, and stated what I thought of everyone.  I cited specific reasons for each of my views.  I don't vote because it didn't yield anything that I felt was worth voting for, with the exception of Lio.  And then I backed off Lio because I was uncomfortable with the wagon at that point.  Note that I still have a scumread on Lio, but I just didn't want to have that lynch happen at that time.

Sudgy:  If you find me scummy for actually putting effort into a game, I'm not going to apologize.  Posts like that are exactly why you often get mislynched.  That vote is as sheepy as it gets.  If I end up getting lynched, you're going to be one of the first targets tomorrow because you sheeped onto my wagon so easily.  And I think that would be a shame, as I think you're more likely town this game.  But please, please, please put more effort into your posts.  What do you think is good about TA's case?  What did you make of my objections to his case?  Do you have rebuttals for them to show why you don't think they affect his point?  If you do, that's fine, but please share them.  And if you don't, try to come up with some, and if you can't, then rethink your vote.

[nkirbit]

Sudgy:  While I have the benefit of knowing TA's case is wrong, he at least provided me with reasons for voting that I'm able to defend myself against, and I attempted to.  I don't know whether or not he will believe me, but I had the opportunity to try and convince him.

Your vote gives me absolutely no recourse.  I know in other games you were frustrated when you felt you were being targeted but weren't entirely sure why.  That's how I feel about your vote.  If you have good reasons to vote me, and state them, I'll try and defend myself, but if I can't convince you, I'll accept your vote.  But your post doesn't give me the opportunity to do so.

If you're town, you should want to give the accused a chance to defend themselves, because you don't want to mislynch.  You're going to have to at times vote for people who very well could be town, just because of the uncertainty of the game.  But you should give them a chance to prove that they are town, and you haven't done that here.

[ashersky]

He's of the colour of the nutmeg. And of the heat of the ginger.... he is pure air and fire; and the dull elements of earth and water never appear in him, but only in patient stillness while his rider mounts him; he is indeed a horse, and all other jades you may call beasts.


Vote Count Act I.XI:

liopoil (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): EFHW
nkirbit (2): Twistedarcher, sudgy
Twistedarcher (1): nkirbit

Not Voting (4): mail-mi, liopoil, xeiron, Eevee

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Act I ends on June 11 at 8:30 p.m.

[sudgy]

TA's case isn't the best, but it's the best we have at the moment.  All the reasons he stated are the reasons I voted for you.

I agree that people accused should defend themselves.  But town and mafia usually do it differently, generally I've seen town make shorter defenses, and scum longer ones (this isn't always the case, but it usually is).  I realized I myself did that in RMM7 (as scum), and I hoped I wouldn't get called out on it (only the person who built the case did).

[sudgy]

Nkirbit, I was going to re-read you and post some of my own thoughts, but you don't have an isotropic or goko username.  This helps because you can ctrl+f "isotropic [or goko] username: nkirbit" and I can read only your posts.  Could you please add an isotropic or goko username, even if you don't have one?  It helps tremendously.

[nkirbit]

Done.  I think.  Hopefully it will show up.

Keep in mind, out of my 4 posts that I posted in response to TA, 2 of them are a case on him.

[liopoil]

Ctrl+f "posts: 0" or go to the print screen and Ctrl+f "post by: nkirbit"