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[sudgy]

@mail-mi: Your post 83.

Oops, sorry, I misread it and thought he was asking me something.  He was asking Arch something.

[ashersky]

I've been rereading a bit and have found some interesting things regarding ash and arch (and even Kooshie!).  I'd like to finish this up and will post tomorrow evening but need some sleep now.

I look forward to your mislynch case and, if successful, congratulating you at the end of the game for winning the MVP for expert scum play.

This post has convinced me raerae is scum.

[Jimmmmm]

This post has convinced me raerae is scum.

Now that sounds like something I can work with. I'll certainly withhold judgement until the promised follow-up, but I'm definitely interested in your reasoning behind this.

[Jorbles]

Also, look at Archetype's lynch.  In the end, I agreed not to hammer in case the hammerer got extra benefits.  I was on, and could have hammered, and didn't.  And then, Archetype self-hammered.  If I'm scum, I either hammer for town points there, or Archetype lets my plan to have sudgy hammer go through so that I get town points for that.  Instead, Archetype hammered to end the day.  If we're together, that's some pretty crappy teamwork.

It's not like you guys could have coordinated on that (unless you have day chat) plus it was so obvious that Arch had made a mistake and was going to flip scum that even his partners turned against him. No one would have gotten town points for hammering there.

I'm interested in seeing what raerae's case is.

[Eevee]

Also, the town-cred doesnt come from letting a townie hammer. I mean, you did your piece in letting that happen. It comes from not stealing the hammer yourself, which is what you did.

[Robz888]

Vote Count 5.1

ashersky (1) -- sudgy

Not Voting (6) -- Eevee, Insomniac, Jorbles, raerae, ashersky, Jimm

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Deadline is May 18th at 11:00 AM. You will begin eating into your bankable time tomorrow at 11:00 AM.

[Eevee]

Ok, another game opening up seems to stall this a bit. I tried to start to reread people but there are SO many pages. Should we all pick one to reread and compile for others?

[sudgy]

Ok, another game opening up seems to stall this a bit. I tried to start to reread people but there are SO many pages. Should we all pick one to reread and compile for others?

Scum could easily throw things off that way.

[Eevee]

Ok, another game opening up seems to stall this a bit. I tried to start to reread people but there are SO many pages. Should we all pick one to reread and compile for others?

Scum could easily throw things off that way.

I imagine the player in question would argue pretty hard if someone tried to present incorrect facts. I suggest that you choose who reads whom, so scum has less chance in getting to analyze each other.

[Jorbles]

This does seem to have logistical problems. If someone doesn't do their assigned player than we might just have someone that no one has looked at. Plus we'd also need to assume that everyone here is trustworthy, we know for a fact that two players won't be trustworthy.

[Eevee]

Its pretty damn risky for scum to intentionally misrepresent the facts, it's not like others players arent allowed to back and check them (the player in question should notice it easily at least). I dont know, I jsut think we need something to get us moving.

[sudgy]

Here's something interesting I'll do: mail-mi and lekkit: sum up what you think of all the currently alive players.

[Jorbles]

They might not lie though, I was thinking more of sins of omission or working extra hard to make someone look scummy (or not working very hard so their partner looks towny).

Anyhow I'm sorry about this, but I'm slammed at work right now and can't contribute much until Friday. I have Friday off though so I'll play catchup then. I think I'm going to do a reread of everyone's interactions on d2 since that's where the bulk of the games interactions are.

PPE: Oh sudgy, that's brilliant. We have dead Townies who can help.

[ashersky]

They might not lie though, I was thinking more of sins of omission or working extra hard to make someone look scummy (or not working very hard so their partner looks towny).

I think the bolded part is the most likely negative from this exercise.

[raerae]

Ok, so this is Ash starting from the beginning and hitting the high points.

1.  Ash's "tell" thing in the beginning.  It wasn't so much the fact that he was throwing tells around like Tootsie Rolls at a parade, but that he stopped once he was called out on it. Town Ash is belligerent and stops when he's good and ready to.

2.  This quote.  This reads as a defense of Kooshie to me.  By this point, I was going after lio pretty hard, yuma was also on him, so I assume he was trying to piggy back on that and get something serious rolling.

vote: liopoil

Mcmc is contributing plenty but Kooshie gets your lurker tag?  They have the exact same number of posts in your quote.  Sounds like trying to form a bad case on D1.  Scum tell (really).

3.  #499 is his vote on Kooshie, putting her at L-2.  The only other time he mentioned Kooshie prior to his vote was in the above quote.  The rest of D1 he spent trying to convince us all that the more townier yuma plays, the more likely it is that he's scum.

4.  His analysis of the Xerion kill, first saying newbie scum would be the only ones fool enough to kill such an easy lynch target, then completely contradicting himself by again going after yuma, saying he's the only player advanced enough to make that kill.  Below are the contradictions.

5.  Hypocrisy, in that last quote Ash criticizes yuma for flip-flopping on Jimmmmm when he himself first advocated a "Jimmmmm lynch deadline" and suggests that it "Might be better to get to night."  Later, he says he doesn't think Jimmmmm will flip scum and won't contribute to his lynch. 

6.  Repeatedly refuses to give sudgy towncred based on the gold key thing even after it was all but mod-confirmed.

7.  Yuma explained the case on Arch (#1731), Ash ignored it for the remainder of the day and continued to push other lynches, namely Lekkit and mcmc. 

This is enough for me.

Vote: Ashersky

[ashersky]

Ok, so this is Ash starting from the beginning and hitting the high points.

1.  Ash's "tell" thing in the beginning.  It wasn't so much the fact that he was throwing tells around like Tootsie Rolls at a parade, but that he stopped once he was called out on it. Town Ash is belligerent and stops when he's good and ready to.

2.  This quote.  This reads as a defense of Kooshie to me.  By this point, I was going after lio pretty hard, yuma was also on him, so I assume he was trying to piggy back on that and get something serious rolling.

vote: liopoil

Mcmc is contributing plenty but Kooshie gets your lurker tag?  They have the exact same number of posts in your quote.  Sounds like trying to form a bad case on D1.  Scum tell (really).

3.  #499 is his vote on Kooshie, putting her at L-2.  The only other time he mentioned Kooshie prior to his vote was in the above quote.  The rest of D1 he spent trying to convince us all that the more townier yuma plays, the more likely it is that he's scum.

4.  His analysis of the Xerion kill, first saying newbie scum would be the only ones fool enough to kill such an easy lynch target, then completely contradicting himself by again going after yuma, saying he's the only player advanced enough to make that kill.  Below are the contradictions.

5.  Hypocrisy, in that last quote Ash criticizes yuma for flip-flopping on Jimmmmm when he himself first advocated a "Jimmmmm lynch deadline" and suggests that it "Might be better to get to night."  Later, he says he doesn't think Jimmmmm will flip scum and won't contribute to his lynch. 

6.  Repeatedly refuses to give sudgy towncred based on the gold key thing even after it was all but mod-confirmed.

7.  Yuma explained the case on Arch (#1731), Ash ignored it for the remainder of the day and continued to push other lynches, namely Lekkit and mcmc. 

This is enough for me.

Vote: Ashersky

They might not lie though, I was thinking more of sins of omission or working extra hard to make someone look scummy (or not working very hard so their partner looks towny).

I think the bolded part is the most likely negative from this exercise.

See?

vote: raerae

[Jimmmmm]

ash, are you deliberately being unhelpful? You say you're convinced raerae is scum, but won't say why, then you imply that she's working extra hard to make you look scummy, but again won't give details.

[raerae]

Ash, I promised to come in with the results of a reread and you call you me scummy but didn't say why.  I post said results and you call me scummy and the best reason you can come up with is reposting something that came after I said I'd post reread results.  Is there anything I could do that you wouldn't call scummy right now? 

[ashersky]

Ash, I promised to come in with the results of a reread and you call you me scummy but didn't say why.  I post said results and you call me scummy and the best reason you can come up with is reposting something that came after I said I'd post reread results.  Is there anything I could do that you wouldn't call scummy right now?

This post isn't scummy.  There's plenty you can do that isn't scummy.

I think my point was lost in the way I decided to present it.

When you first posted that you "noticed" something about me in relation to Arch and Kooshie, I immediately got the sense that you were scum deciding to help push my mislynch through.  But I didn't want to write it right then, because it may have affected what you actually put together, so I was vague.

Then, there was the unrelated discussion of assigning re-reads, and the possible negatives of that plan.  When Jorbles made his point about forced scum reads, he hit exactly on something I had already thought about your post.  So I boldedly agreed.

Then you came in with, what seems to me, a very weak case on me.  So I pointed out what had already been said that I already agreed with.

[Jimmmmm]

raerae's post is longer than average sure, but it's pretty short for a case. In what sense is she "working extra hard"?

[Eevee]

Raerae's case is also the best one presented today.

[ashersky]

4.  His analysis of the Xerion kill, first saying newbie scum would be the only ones fool enough to kill such an easy lynch target, then completely contradicting himself by again going after yuma, saying he's the only player advanced enough to make that kill.  Below are the contradictions.

Scum quick hammer to keep from more info getting out is a possibility.

except our quick hammerer is dead.

Terrible scum play, that.

I think we're looking for more newbie scum.

FoS: Yuma

He's too good to trust, was off-wagon, and has been pushing an off-wagon lynch in a pro-town way.  He's successfully deflected any attention away from him by driving the convo.  See MnM for textbook Yuma scum.

then vote for me. But really do you think that the evidence points more greatly to me than say mcmc or Jimmmm where there are obvious interactions with Kooshie (Jimmmm being Kooshie's biggest town read, and mcmc blatantly defending the Kooshie lynch)?

Do you have any actual evidence? Or are you just saying this because your scum buddy (buddies) are under pressure?

Just because I am good at portraying town when I am scum, doesn't mean I am scum when I am town.

Ok.  vote: yuma

Reasons:

You are probably the only player on f.ds advanced enough to kill Xeiron on purpose knowing we would push a newbie scum theory based on that.

You are leading town in circles, concentric ones spiraling away from you, specifically.

You haven't been consistent on D2: the latest three or so posts before you started responding to me were back and forth on Jimmmmm, for example.

You are ignoring possible scum play from Ozle happening right before your eyes.

Note, these are all D2 reasons, because scum!yuma doesn't give clues on D1.  Most scum don't.

I went ahead and fixed your quotes to includes the posts you were including.

I disagree with your Point #4 that my analysis of the X kill is scummy, and that I contradicted myself.  Note that you quoted posts that are 8 days apart, with plenty of conversations ongoing in-between.  8 days is a lot of time to continue to think/analyse/discuss/etc.

In my first post quoted, I posit that killing the derphammerer was terrible scum play, and that only newbie scum would do that.  I think this was a valid reaction to the kill.  It's a fair statement.

In the second post, where my "contradiction" sits, I vote yuma, who as we can see now, was actually town.  None of us knew that at the time though.  And the first point I list is that yuma is smart enough to pull off the newbie scum mistake on purpose to throw us off.  That's not a contradiction, that's saying yuma could have come to the same conclusion as I did and used it as a reason to kill X.

[ashersky]

raerae's post is longer than average sure, but it's pretty short for a case. In what sense is she "working extra hard"?

By presenting contradicting quotes (but including only links, which most folks won't click) that don't actually contradict each other, for one.

Digging up miniscule quotes with little context or substance to make me look scummy.  Context is important--why did someone say something at a certain time can change the meaning of a line or word immensely.

Using personality traits and turning them into scum traits (hypocrite, etc.).

[ashersky]

7.  Yuma explained the case on Arch (#1731), Ash ignored it for the remainder of the day and continued to push other lynches, namely Lekkit and mcmc. 

Ignores the fact that I was in agreement on the scumslip and was working to get him lynched.

[Eevee]

I think newbie scum never was a sufficient argument, with a team that big someone was bound to realize xeiron would get heat for the hammer. I think they just thought hammer on scum would give a lot of coins or something.