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[Lekkit]

I am back but going to bed now. I've finished catching up and will be posting more thoughts tomorrow. I think Jimmm is the best lynch today.

[liopoil]

So hammer him!!!! ...well at least he's back.

[yuma]

What do you want me to do yuma? Hammer someone I dont think is scum?

No all I wanted you to do was answer the questions I posed and then if you thought it was the correct decision to hammer. That is all.

[yuma]

soft deadline... do we have one? seriously. We need one. This is getting stupid. And the players that aren't participating need to. we desperately need you to participate. Arch, Lekkit and Insomniac are all on VLA and it is killing us. It is understandable, but it is killing us.

Those of you not on Jimmmm. Here is the biggest questions I have.

1. Do you honestly think we can get another lynch today?

2. Do you honestly think that Jimmmm isn't that scummy? I'll get to this in a bit.

3. Do you honestly think that not lynching Jimmmm is in town's best interest at this point? How long is it going to take to get another lynch option going and get a consensus. You are going to have a terribly hard time convincing people off the Jimmmm wagon, not to mention the people that aren't participating...

The biggest defense that I have heard is thus:

Jimmmm wouldn't play scum so badly (this is mostly at you eevee). I have said this before and will say this again, but this is a horrible argument. It is horrible because it is totally dependent on the availability of Jimmmmm. Look, Jimmmm is super busy in RL. I get that. It doesn't make him scummy. But it also doesn't make him town. It is independent of his alignment. So if Jimmmm is scum, it is unfortunate for him that he has been so busy he hasn't been able to play a solid game like you would except. It is also unfortunate that if he is scum, his scum buddy left him in such a crappy spot. If I were Jimmmm at that point and after getting the criticism I would play on my business. I would try to prolong day as long as possible, I would delay my rereads and defenses. I would make it seem like I didn't care. Because if he is as busy as he says he is. He doesn't have time to put effort into this game that is necessary to get out of such an obvious lynch.

I don't think I have seen any other compelling arguments. Just gut reads which are worthless to me.

Yuma, the problem with this is it just sounds like "man, day is getting long, let's lynch the easiest."  That just feels like we're being lazy.

You are absolutely right that the lurkers/VLAers are killing us here.  If we're going to lynch someone solely to get the day ended, better to policy lynch LALL-style, I think.

But you only address point three. And I still say it is a good point. Because where does it end? Maybe it is lazy... but in this sort of a game sometimes you just need a lynch. This is so unlike you! You are normally all for saving banked time and pushing a lynch through as town. What gives?

[Eevee]

What do you want me to do yuma? Hammer someone I dont think is scum?

No all I wanted you to do was answer the questions I posed and then if you thought it was the correct decision to hammer. That is all.

We disagree in that Jimm would see this as a valid scum strategy. I think he plays scum much like you do, appears very pro town and no one sees it coming.

[yuma]

I guess my other frustration is that the people not voting for Jimmm aren't doing a very good job of presenting other options. Or rather they present other options, but those wagons just die off... maybe this is also a critique against people on the Jimmm wagon not being willing to look elsewhere, but there hasn't been a wagon with more than 2 votes beside Jimmm basically all day. If the off-Jimmmm players think Jimmmm isn't scum they need to come together and find a better option and present it to town and see if they can get more than 2 votes. If that doesn't happen--and it hasn't yet... nothing but jimmm getting lynched is going to happen.

I guess that is just it. The non-Jimmmm voters seem only interested in not getting Jimmmm lynched. They talk about other people being suspicious, but aren't willing to do the leg work to present solid cases on others to attract other voters. I have tried. I tried to present a case on mail-mi and ashersky, but no one joined.

If not Jimmmm (non-Jimmm voters) find another option, present it to us and we will see what happens. Do that or vote for Jimmmm.

[liopoil]

agreed, with non-Jimmmmm voters not presenting other options. I'm willing to lynch someone else, like ashersky, or maybe a lurker.

[ashersky]

soft deadline... do we have one? seriously. We need one. This is getting stupid. And the players that aren't participating need to. we desperately need you to participate. Arch, Lekkit and Insomniac are all on VLA and it is killing us. It is understandable, but it is killing us.

Those of you not on Jimmmm. Here is the biggest questions I have.

1. Do you honestly think we can get another lynch today?

2. Do you honestly think that Jimmmm isn't that scummy? I'll get to this in a bit.

3. Do you honestly think that not lynching Jimmmm is in town's best interest at this point? How long is it going to take to get another lynch option going and get a consensus. You are going to have a terribly hard time convincing people off the Jimmmm wagon, not to mention the people that aren't participating...

The biggest defense that I have heard is thus:

Jimmmm wouldn't play scum so badly (this is mostly at you eevee). I have said this before and will say this again, but this is a horrible argument. It is horrible because it is totally dependent on the availability of Jimmmmm. Look, Jimmmm is super busy in RL. I get that. It doesn't make him scummy. But it also doesn't make him town. It is independent of his alignment. So if Jimmmm is scum, it is unfortunate for him that he has been so busy he hasn't been able to play a solid game like you would except. It is also unfortunate that if he is scum, his scum buddy left him in such a crappy spot. If I were Jimmmm at that point and after getting the criticism I would play on my business. I would try to prolong day as long as possible, I would delay my rereads and defenses. I would make it seem like I didn't care. Because if he is as busy as he says he is. He doesn't have time to put effort into this game that is necessary to get out of such an obvious lynch.

I don't think I have seen any other compelling arguments. Just gut reads which are worthless to me.

Yuma, the problem with this is it just sounds like "man, day is getting long, let's lynch the easiest."  That just feels like we're being lazy.

You are absolutely right that the lurkers/VLAers are killing us here.  If we're going to lynch someone solely to get the day ended, better to policy lynch LALL-style, I think.

But you only address point three. And I still say it is a good point. Because where does it end? Maybe it is lazy... but in this sort of a game sometimes you just need a lynch. This is so unlike you! You are normally all for saving banked time and pushing a lynch through as town. What gives?

Fair enough.  On the other points:

Point 1: Do I think we can get another lynch through?  Honestly, I think someone will hammer Jimmmmm before that happens.  I think with a full town playing, we could get a different lynch (heck, someone could get my lynch through, I'm sure), but with the current under-activity, it would be difficult.  But really, I think you'll get your Jimmmmm mislynch through.

Point 2: I guess I just don't see that much scumminess there.  I know you aren't a big gut/meta guy, and that's okay.  If we're ever on a team together, I think we'll complement each others' strengths.  But in response to that, I'd point this out: your experience playing with and modding over people has helped you develop your ability to read them, right?  I think that's a fact for your reads on me, at least.  (And you just did that in the post I quote, btw.)  As I've gotten more experience on f.ds, my play style has changed (less whine, for example), and my reads on people have developed.  So I get a townish read on Jimmmmm, based on meta/past.  Maybe it's time for a recap on his Kooshie interactions, but they just don't stand out to me as that strong (not as strong as mcmc's, for example).


I have in the past pushed to lynch just to end the day.  You are correct.  But they've always been town, and we've not benefited from it.  So I'm thinking maybe that isn't the best course of action.

[ashersky]

I guess my other frustration is that the people not voting for Jimmm aren't doing a very good job of presenting other options. Or rather they present other options, but those wagons just die off... maybe this is also a critique against people on the Jimmm wagon not being willing to look elsewhere, but there hasn't been a wagon with more than 2 votes beside Jimmm basically all day. If the off-Jimmmm players think Jimmmm isn't scum they need to come together and find a better option and present it to town and see if they can get more than 2 votes. If that doesn't happen--and it hasn't yet... nothing but jimmm getting lynched is going to happen.

I guess that is just it. The non-Jimmmm voters seem only interested in not getting Jimmmm lynched. They talk about other people being suspicious, but aren't willing to do the leg work to present solid cases on others to attract other voters. I have tried. I tried to present a case on mail-mi and ashersky, but no one joined.

If not Jimmmm (non-Jimmm voters) find another option, present it to us and we will see what happens. Do that or vote for Jimmmm.

That's a fair criticism, I guess.  Although to be fair to me (and Eevee, at least), we don't usually do posts of cases that resemble yours.  I'll try to get a re-read in and present a stronger case on Ozle.

agreed, with non-Jimmmmm voters not presenting other options. I'm willing to lynch someone else, like ashersky, or maybe a lurker.

I will not be building a case on me.

[yuma]

I will not be building a case on me.

but that is my favorite kind of case... and remember! an easy way to get me to not vote for Jimmmm anymore is to self vote!

[raerae]

Ummmm...lio, yuma, my mail-mi case doesn't count as presenting another lynch option?  Why isn't it good enough?  Did you have questions on it I didn't see?  I'd be happy to answer them.

[yuma]

Ummmm...lio, yuma, my mail-mi case doesn't count as presenting another lynch option?  Why isn't it good enough?  Did you have questions on it I didn't see?  I'd be happy to answer them.

I think the fact that I can't remember it at all has something to do with it... Like I said, there have been cases presented, but none have been joined upon by people not voting for Jimmmm. There hasn't been any real movement as a group, no leg work to attract other voters to it (part of this is the real life constraints of a holiday weekend, I get that and don't criticize because of that). I was voting for mail-mi at one point, but no one joined in so I abandoned it.

I might be willing to vote mail-mi if I thought it was a lynch that would go through. But at this point it won't go through. There isn't enough support off the Jimmm wagon for it. If there isn't enough there to convince non-Jimmmm voters, how is there going to be enough to convince Jimmmm voters to leave the only viable wagon at this point.

Do you see what I mean?

[raerae]

So moral of the story is that we're all too stubborn to do anything other than what we're doing?

[yuma]

So moral of the story is that we're all too stubborn to do anything other than what we're doing?

Maybe? I think it more has to do with the train of thought of people on the Jimmm wagon in being, "hey! we likely found scum! Why would I join your wagon that doesn't seem as promising as this one and has less people and probably isn't going to result in a lynch."

That is how mafia is, especially in large groups where large numbers of people are needed for a lynch to go through. How I wish Axxle was here with his double vote... I promise I wouldn't find him scummy for it!

[raerae]

Well, I don't know what to do.  Wait for Lekkit?  Wait for Arch?  I'm going to point people back in this direction, even if you think it's crap let's at least discuss it rather than just making angry faces at each other for either being or not being on jimmmmm's wagon.

[raerae]

mail-mi is very scummy, and #793 is awful. However, #793 makes it a bad idea to lynch him today. If he is town, we definatly don't want to lynch someone who has access to a PR, and is town. If he is scum, then he is super scummy tommorow because he won't be NKed, and can be considered for a lynch more then.

Lio, sorry, I didn't see this at first.  What makes you think he has a PR?

[ashersky]

Okay, just finished a re-read of D1.  Here are my thoughts:

--I had town reads early to mid D1 on yuma and Ozle.  That's funny to me, given how I feel about them now.
--I had a scum reads on Jimmmmm and mcmc all day.
--I think liopoil is town.  He started the Kooshie wagon and kept it going all day.  That isn't a scum!liopoil move.
--Insom REALLY lurked his way through D1 (and now D2).
--Eevee has not been suspected much at all, even though he contributed very little on D1.

Here are some interesting quotes:

Honestly, I don't think that liopoil's scum.  Many people have said, "Ooh, defensiveness.  Ooh, massclaim.  Ohh, ooh, ooh."  On the defensiveness, I think that he's the kind of person that when questioned on things like that, would get a little defensive.  he came up with this idea, and thought it might actually worked.  People criticized it and questioned it in a way he probably didn't like.  He got a teensy bit offended, and when people called him scummy, he felt the need to defend himself in the way that he did.  That's what I think about his defensiveness. 
On his massclaim idea, it ties into the defensiveness.  At first it was an idea, he got a bit miffed, and then when people were toppling it and it was clear it wasn't going to work, he realized he might be lynched, and like any town player, didn't like that.  He still wanted his idea to be considered, though, so he slimmed it down, in the process realizing that it really needed slimming down.

I think this has been quoted before, but it's Kooshie's response to liopoil.  I think it helps solidify a town read on lio.

For a second I was like "oh cool, Eevee must be town!" But then I remembered:

of course I don't think people who agree with me must be town, that's ridiculous! I assumed people would know that...

How is that ridiculous, you said it!
And then you explained how your initial thinking was wrong by pointing out out Eevee likes to buddy.

If it was sarcasm, then why feel the need to justify it?

It just feels so staged....

Im still Waiting for the Man Insomniac and the other lurkers to come before we even decide to lynch anybody surely?

Here is Ozle attacking someone I think, in retrospect, is most probably town.  So, attacking probtown, and if you read the context around the post, deflecting from a Kooshie wagon that may or may not pick up steam at that point to Eevee.

ins, do you then disagree with robz in that lurking is what I'd do as scum?

With Robz?

I think you'd lurk as scum or be active as scum, I don't think you have a set meta for how you play scum.

Robz thinks I wouldn't lurk as scum (I think he is right), ozle apparwntly thinks everyone knows I lurk as scum. Well, I don't think I'll prove my towniness with this particular self-meta argument either way.

I think what Lekkit is saying about kooshie makes sense too.

Lekkit is just sheeping Lipoli though. And you are sheeping Lekkit.

The case is not strong.
One of the arguments is that kooshie has been busy defending, well thats a plus point in my book! When people are accused before they have hardly said anything they SHOULD post a defense to those things if they are town to help shift the attention on someone who might not be town!

Lekkit says that Kooshie has not posted any thing of substance, well the same applies to you Lekkit, I dont remember anything of substance you have said this game apart from agree with Lipoli.
You may have said something, but none of it has stuck in my mind.

I* think Lipoli is more wrong than scummy, the only thing that lipoli has done that is scummy is get unnecessarily worried about the Insomniac lynch, and that only becomes scummy if Insomniac is scummy.[

Robz thinks I wouldn't lurk as scum (I think he is right), ozle apparwntly thinks everyone knows I lurk as scum. Well, I don't think I'll prove my towniness with this particular self-meta argument either way.

ok, this has even more convinced me that Eevee is dodgy. You know you have lurked as scum, you actively toned down your activity as scum in my last game. I know you dont actively post as much as scum, and more importantly you know that I know that,

Good Enough for me to keep my vote on Eevee to be honest! Its not a massive thing, but its better than nothing at the moment.

Its day 1, im not adverse to lynching anyone to be honest, but I REALLY dislike people claiming they have good or strong cases based on such flimsy flimsy stuff.

Actually I take that back, I dont want to lynch Sudgy because he knows where a gold key is, and if he can buy that somehow then we will know he is town AND have cheaper access to Gold Rooms. Of course he might be scum, but its a null read on that for him, so the fact he may get us good stuff later makes him less of a good lynch candidate than anyone else.

Another Ozle post on Kooshie, defending Kooshie by calling the case "not strong" and trying to deflect to Eevee again.

just coming in to start on my reread and we reached a lynch...

however, before this gets locked... if I die tonight my advice is to not just jump into an immediate xeirion lynch tomorrow. hammering like that wasn't pro-town, but it doesn't automatically make him scum either. I could easily see a newbie scum doing it. Goodness, I have derp-hammered as town before.

I do think we need to hear from him before the thread is locked... and lio. DON'T TALK ABOUT THAT STUFF EVER! I completely agree with Ozle. There are always going to be potential ramifications to the things you say about claiming, setup info, etc that you can't think about. It is just better to not say anything unless you are in the process of outing scum.

I noted this when he posted it, but I do think this is a scum!yuma type of post.  Smart to use the "if I get killed tonight..." thing when you are scum.

[liopoil]

mail-mi is very scummy, and #793 is awful. However, #793 makes it a bad idea to lynch him today. If he is town, we definatly don't want to lynch someone who has access to a PR, and is town. If he is scum, then he is super scummy tommorow because he won't be NKed, and can be considered for a lynch more then.

Lio, sorry, I didn't see this at first.  What makes you think he has a PR?

Did you miss this? This is why we're very hesitant to lynch mail-mi today...

Don't lynch me because I have access to something that could really help town.

[Eevee]

I wonder if Vote: Ozle would pick on. Only reason it hasn't is because he has been posting smart stuff that's just as easy to post as scum (theory posts). His actual in-game contributions (deflecting from Kooshie to me and not ending up in the wagon) strike to me as scummy.

[ashersky]

- I almost posted this in the tabula rasa thread...

mail-mi (1) -- mcmcsalot
liopoil (1)  -- yuma
raerae (1) -- Jimm
Kooshie (9) -- liopoil, Eevee, Jorbles, sudgy, Lekkit, mail-mi, ashersky, raerae, xeiron
sudgy (1) -- Insomniac
Eevee (1) -- Ozle

Not Voting (2) -- sparky5856, Kooshie

so the to take a very close look at list includes: mcmc, Jimmmm, Insomniac, Ozle and sparky and yuma (if you aren't me). Now I remember and we will want to verify this... but I remember both Ozle and sparky being very willing to vote kooshie and only not doing so because wanting to give town a chance to talk more.

But the point remains that they didn't vote before either (by that before Kooshie was at L-1 or L-2, etc).

I would suggest everyone that is inclined to do a reread of these players specifically and see what can be found.

After that I think it is best to look at the late wagon joiners (raerae, ash and mail-mi)

This was yuma's first post of the day talking about who we should look at.  I will point out that he knew Ozle was off-wagon at that point, even though he "forgot" the rest of the day until I pointed it out.

Also worth noting that mega-D1-lurker Insom is off-wagon.  Sparky didn't contribute much either.  Really, a lot of good choices off wagon.

[raerae]

mail-mi is very scummy, and #793 is awful. However, #793 makes it a bad idea to lynch him today. If he is town, we definatly don't want to lynch someone who has access to a PR, and is town. If he is scum, then he is super scummy tommorow because he won't be NKed, and can be considered for a lynch more then.

Lio, sorry, I didn't see this at first.  What makes you think he has a PR?

Did you miss this? This is why we're very hesitant to lynch mail-mi today...

Don't lynch me because I have access to something that could really help town.

But why jump straight to PR is my question.  There are obviously other things running around these woods or are we counting those things (like the Watchtower jimmmmmm mentioned) as PRs?  PR is just stuck in my head as "cop" and "jailkeeper" not "can see stuff in rooms."

[ashersky]

Continuing case on Ozle:

This came AFTER he fished for spawning points from us ("anyone from a hallway")...

PPE: Also, I think I saw someone commenting earlier that if they went down to 0 money that would help prove thier town status. No it doesnt unfortunately.

...How do you know this?

....how do you know this isnt the case?
Have you seen all the bank?

Seriously, are people STILL asking these sorts of fishing questions for absolutely no gain??!

I'll repeat it again, One Last Time.......unless you have a picture of everything that's in the bank you CANNOT say for sure that something (For example there is only one way to lose money and thats the scum Pillage ability) is the case. You simply have no idea whats in the bank and what they do!


Say for example there is an item that lets you take money off a player. That person thinks they have been pillages, claims. And then another town player also claims they have been pillaged. Following the absolute stated above, we would probably lynch one, they woudl turn out town. Then lynch the other one, which would also turn out town. Boom, Scum probably won now. Well done

This isn't an edge case or a weird scenario, this is a PERFECTLY valid situation, and why you should not speculate or fish about items, map locations UNLESS YOU HAVE A REAL GOOD CASE OF CATCHING SCUM OR SAVING TOWN.


By asking questions like you did, you have made me defend myself or look scummy, which means I have possibly let out information to scum. Well done.

[ashersky]

So, I reread and added on to my overly meta case.  No responses...

[Eevee]

So, I reread and added on to my overly meta case.  No responses...

If it's any consolation, no one is online.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, thank you for that ash, I don't know how I manage to not read ozzle or yuma, I think I just did jimm/insom first and was so upset I got stuck.
So the ozzle case does have merit, that deflection from kooshie is very scummy especially with how he changed his mind and wanted hammer but not till the very last minute. I didn't think kooshie was scum and felt the case was weak but as I was busy with exams during that time, I hadn't really read the case to argue it, and therefor didn't have a chance to find the case more credible than I thought. At no point did I change my mind because at no point did I do any rereading of that particular case and person. I don't feel like ozzle did either but he did change his opinion. So while I do like this case, I still think the case on jimm is better.