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[mcmcsalot]

Guys, I just realized something. If I'm alive tomorrow, I'm not scum. Scum sees the perfect mis lunch in me and is not going to kill me. Just saying.

Where is everyone?! This day needs to end!

ugh, its called wifom!!!! Arguments like these are made null and void. I'll explain wifom if your not familiar with it and why it is like this.
Mail-mi is alive on day 3. He must be scum because scum would have killed him! But wait, scum would know that and leave him alive so we will mislynch him! But wait scum!mail-mi would have thought of that and used that argument to clear himself! But wait scum!mail-mi would know we would come to that conclusion and wouldn't have said it at all, its a never ending cycle of who thought of what first and therefor cannot be used as an argument toward or against you.

The fact that it was bad play can be used. That was bad play whether you are town or scum, usually we say bad play is scummy, I was making the argument that in your case bad play is towny(I don't think you are a bad player, just that you are a bit jumpy and would legitimately be afraid of getting lynched with such little suspicion on you. I think as scum you would be more calm and collected)

[liopoil]

mail-mi likely will survive the night. It will not mean much regarding his alignment, but if anything it will be a bit on the scummy side (because WIFOM aside, scum wants to kill PRs.)

[Ozle]

From Jimmms long post

" This room did contain a Watchtower, which let you see who else was in the same room, as well as a Treasure Map, "

Now this is strange, as I have seen another item that does EXACTLY the same thing with a DIFFERENT name.

Now, either Robz ran out of ideas, or this is a lie.

A) Now, its possible Robz did run out of ideas and did two cards do the exact same thing to fill up rooms
B)  Or Scum Jimm has changed what the Watchtower does because he knows it helps teammates and doesnt want to give away what they had (I dont believe Town jimmm would lie about this, what would he gain if he thought he was being lynched)

Now, I'm leaning towards A) because it does fit the theme of the card slightly, however it doesnt fit exactly. However, thinking further, Watchtower is a defense card (So why would Scum want it?) And I cant see how the top decking would fit in anyways.

Just to be clear, I dont want anyone to own up to buying it unless they know it doesn't do what Jimm says it does.

[liopoil]

ashersky's first 18 posts include a "tell" on someone, but not a single post of his after that has a tell in it. Not neccessarily scummy or towny... just worth note. I just read ash and found him on the scummy side for his sudden vote on kooshie, and a post shortly after which seemed like last-minute-bussing to me:

So many people!  I get them confused when I try to put into words what I think of them, but I'll try my best on who I can call to mind.  Maybe do a few rereads, even.

Jimm: Contributing, giving opinions, no reads, really, but otherwise very towny.  Actually, not many people have put in reads.  So, Lekkit, why point at me?
Raerae: Not much of a read, kinda towny.  Is Jimm's vote still on her?  I can't remember the reason.  At one point he voted her just because she said not to, if they were voting because of lurking.
Ashersky: Right now all I can think of is his tells.  He's pretty much stopped doing that, but it might take a little before something more solid enters my mind.
Liopoil: ahhh, him.  Don't like how he's tunneling and won't say for a second that I might possibly be town.  How can he be so sure?  Oh, yeah, if I get lynched and flip town, he's in a teensy bit of trouble.  He seems surer than he should be, though.
Jorbles: town vibes, but a bit of sheeping might have been in there.  Nothing serious, though.
Mail-mi: Sheeeeeeeeeeeepy.
Lekkit: also rather sheeping liopoil.  When he said he like liopoil's case on me and defended it, he still didn't vote for me.  He did soon after, but why not then?

I think you are first time scum this game, based on posts like this.  These are harder to do as scum, and this doesn't read like a town list.

I'm good with a Kooshie lynch.

[Ozle]

Ok, thought this through, I seriously doubt Jimm would lie about that, far too easy for someone to have walked through that room and find out that he was lying.

So got to believe he is telling the truth. Darn, thought I was onto something there.

Damn you Robz!

[liopoil]

ozle, you're saying you have seen an item which lets you see everyone in the same room as you that isn't named watchtower?

[mcmcsalot]

I don't think Jimmmmm will flip scum, so I won't contribute to his lynch.

I think Jorbles, mcmc, Ozle (same case on him as on Yuma), and Yuma are better lynches.  With those, even mislynches tell us more than Jimmmmm-easy-lynch.

I don't buy it. Clearly this is not Jimmmm-easy-lynch. There are more interaction surrounding the jimm wagon and lynch than you claim.

Okay I read you case on jorbles, sorry I don't think it is good as he was on kooshiewagon and tons of people have been jumping votes on jimm, I don't think its that scummy.

You make no case on ozzle, but say same case as yuma so I'm just going to address the yuma case.
hmm, seems i lost track before I reread yuma gosh that frustrates me. I will do that in a second I'm sorry. Pre re-read my gut says yuma has been posting enough and contributing that I don't think he is a good lynch.

So, I guess I still want a better reason from you, do you refuse to lynch Jimmm? even with him at L-1, at least 4 town members think hes a good lynch. I don't think you will get a lynch on ozzle/yuma, just seeing how hard it is for us to do anything with the crazy lurkers/vla's we have going on.

[Ozle]

ozle, you're saying you have seen an item which lets you see everyone in the same room as you that isn't named watchtower?

Please ignore that, was a dead end. Thought I was onto something but wasn't

[liopoil]

I understand that, and don't find Jimmmmm scummy for that. I'm just very curious if you have seen such an item. You don't have to tell me if you don't think it is a good idea for town. Jimmmmm's wording wasn't terribly clear, so it is possible that you are reffering to different items.

[ashersky]

I don't think Jimmmmm will flip scum, so I won't contribute to his lynch.

I think Jorbles, mcmc, Ozle (same case on him as on Yuma), and Yuma are better lynches.  With those, even mislynches tell us more than Jimmmmm-easy-lynch.

I don't buy it. Clearly this is not Jimmmm-easy-lynch. There are more interaction surrounding the jimm wagon and lynch than you claim.

Okay I read you case on jorbles, sorry I don't think it is good as he was on kooshiewagon and tons of people have been jumping votes on jimm, I don't think its that scummy.

You make no case on ozzle, but say same case as yuma so I'm just going to address the yuma case.
hmm, seems i lost track before I reread yuma gosh that frustrates me. I will do that in a second I'm sorry. Pre re-read my gut says yuma has been posting enough and contributing that I don't think he is a good lynch.

So, I guess I still want a better reason from you, do you refuse to lynch Jimmm? even with him at L-1, at least 4 town members think hes a good lynch. I don't think you will get a lynch on ozzle/yuma, just seeing how hard it is for us to do anything with the crazy lurkers/vla's we have going on.

I think mcmc is town now, btw.  My scum read on him has evaporated as he's begun his townspeak.  I think scum!mcmc doesn't argue like this, because he doesn't want the attention.

I agree that, since Jorbles was on wagon, we can leave him out of the conversation for D2.  That leaves Ozle and yuma (along with Jimmmmm) off wagon.  And yet no one will consider Ozle/yuma, both masterminds of f.ds, as scum?  Does that not strike anyone as odd?

[Eevee]

My reason for not wanting to lynch Jimmm is that I dont think he would have played like this as scum. It's not a game of lynching the worst townie, it's game of finding mafia. It is wifom, but I dont think Jimm is the most likely player to flip scum today. The problem with Ozle and yuma (who we DEFINITELY should be scutinizing more) is that building cases against them is hard as they are good at refuting them. Makes them hard to lynch. Jimmm is easier to lynch. Ozle and yuma are more likely to be scum.

[Ozle]

I agree that, since Jorbles was on wagon, we can leave him out of the conversation for D2.  That leaves Ozle and yuma (along with Jimmmmm) off wagon.  And yet no one will consider Ozle/yuma, both masterminds of f.ds, as scum?  Does that not strike anyone as odd?

First off, im a mastermind at scum? Where did that come from?! This is like my 3rd or 4th game of serious mafia!

And I have been considered, i had a few votes on me earlier, but I think people considered me and dint consider me particulrily scummy, thats why yours and eevees last vote push for me didnt work!

If Jimmmm turns up at Mafia then you are going to look soooooo scummy! Scum would have a hard time convincing themselves to bus a second member of thier team, because they know with 2 mafia down then it will be VERY hard for them to win

Thats why I feel more confident the longer it takes to lynch Jimmmm.....

[ashersky]

I agree that, since Jorbles was on wagon, we can leave him out of the conversation for D2.  That leaves Ozle and yuma (along with Jimmmmm) off wagon.  And yet no one will consider Ozle/yuma, both masterminds of f.ds, as scum?  Does that not strike anyone as odd?

First off, im a mastermind at scum? Where did that come from?! This is like my 3rd or 4th game of serious mafia!

And I have been considered, i had a few votes on me earlier, but I think people considered me and dint consider me particulrily scummy, thats why yours and eevees last vote push for me didnt work!

If Jimmmm turns up at Mafia then you are going to look soooooo scummy! Scum would have a hard time convincing themselves to bus a second member of thier team, because they know with 2 mafia down then it will be VERY hard for them to win

Thats why I feel more confident the longer it takes to lynch Jimmmm.....

Way to twist my words, Mr. Ozle.  I say "mastermind(s) of f.ds", not mastermind at scum.  Reread, man.

Take out the masterminds clause and the sentence says "And yet no one will consider Ozle/yuma as scum."  If you prefer, reword it to say "And yet no one will consider the f.ds masterminds Ozle/yuma as scum."

[ashersky]

I agree that, since Jorbles was on wagon, we can leave him out of the conversation for D2.  That leaves Ozle and yuma (along with Jimmmmm) off wagon.  And yet no one will consider Ozle/yuma, both masterminds of f.ds, as scum?  Does that not strike anyone as odd?

First off, im a mastermind at scum? Where did that come from?! This is like my 3rd or 4th game of serious mafia!

And I have been considered, i had a few votes on me earlier, but I think people considered me and dint consider me particulrily scummy, thats why yours and eevees last vote push for me didnt work!

If Jimmmm turns up at Mafia then you are going to look soooooo scummy! Scum would have a hard time convincing themselves to bus a second member of thier team, because they know with 2 mafia down then it will be VERY hard for them to win

Thats why I feel more confident the longer it takes to lynch Jimmmm.....

Also, twisting someone's words to paint them badly is a scummy thing to do.

[liopoil]

I've considered them, as have most other people... they just aren't scummy!

[yuma]

soft deadline... do we have one? seriously. We need one. This is getting stupid. And the players that aren't participating need to. we desperately need you to participate. Arch, Lekkit and Insomniac are all on VLA and it is killing us. It is understandable, but it is killing us.

Those of you not on Jimmmm. Here is the biggest questions I have.

1. Do you honestly think we can get another lynch today?

2. Do you honestly think that Jimmmm isn't that scummy? I'll get to this in a bit.

3. Do you honestly think that not lynching Jimmmm is in town's best interest at this point? How long is it going to take to get another lynch option going and get a consensus. You are going to have a terribly hard time convincing people off the Jimmmm wagon, not to mention the people that aren't participating...

The biggest defense that I have heard is thus:

Jimmmm wouldn't play scum so badly (this is mostly at you eevee). I have said this before and will say this again, but this is a horrible argument. It is horrible because it is totally dependent on the availability of Jimmmmm. Look, Jimmmm is super busy in RL. I get that. It doesn't make him scummy. But it also doesn't make him town. It is independent of his alignment. So if Jimmmm is scum, it is unfortunate for him that he has been so busy he hasn't been able to play a solid game like you would except. It is also unfortunate that if he is scum, his scum buddy left him in such a crappy spot. If I were Jimmmm at that point and after getting the criticism I would play on my business. I would try to prolong day as long as possible, I would delay my rereads and defenses. I would make it seem like I didn't care. Because if he is as busy as he says he is. He doesn't have time to put effort into this game that is necessary to get out of such an obvious lynch.

I don't think I have seen any other compelling arguments. Just gut reads which are worthless to me.

[liopoil]

we HAD one, but it's long gone. Jorbles has expressed potential willingness to hammer. He should do that now.

[sudgy]

Jorbles, as others have said, you need to hammer.

[Eevee]

What do you want me to do yuma? Hammer someone I dont think is scum?

[Eevee]

What do you want me to do yuma? Hammer someone I dont think is scum?

Not that I would if you did.

[ashersky]

What do you want me to do yuma? Hammer someone I dont think is scum?

Not that I would if you did.

I did once.  Arch in MnM.  We saw how that worked out...with a win for yuma.

[ashersky]

soft deadline... do we have one? seriously. We need one. This is getting stupid. And the players that aren't participating need to. we desperately need you to participate. Arch, Lekkit and Insomniac are all on VLA and it is killing us. It is understandable, but it is killing us.

Those of you not on Jimmmm. Here is the biggest questions I have.

1. Do you honestly think we can get another lynch today?

2. Do you honestly think that Jimmmm isn't that scummy? I'll get to this in a bit.

3. Do you honestly think that not lynching Jimmmm is in town's best interest at this point? How long is it going to take to get another lynch option going and get a consensus. You are going to have a terribly hard time convincing people off the Jimmmm wagon, not to mention the people that aren't participating...

The biggest defense that I have heard is thus:

Jimmmm wouldn't play scum so badly (this is mostly at you eevee). I have said this before and will say this again, but this is a horrible argument. It is horrible because it is totally dependent on the availability of Jimmmmm. Look, Jimmmm is super busy in RL. I get that. It doesn't make him scummy. But it also doesn't make him town. It is independent of his alignment. So if Jimmmm is scum, it is unfortunate for him that he has been so busy he hasn't been able to play a solid game like you would except. It is also unfortunate that if he is scum, his scum buddy left him in such a crappy spot. If I were Jimmmm at that point and after getting the criticism I would play on my business. I would try to prolong day as long as possible, I would delay my rereads and defenses. I would make it seem like I didn't care. Because if he is as busy as he says he is. He doesn't have time to put effort into this game that is necessary to get out of such an obvious lynch.

I don't think I have seen any other compelling arguments. Just gut reads which are worthless to me.

Yuma, the problem with this is it just sounds like "man, day is getting long, let's lynch the easiest."  That just feels like we're being lazy.

You are absolutely right that the lurkers/VLAers are killing us here.  If we're going to lynch someone solely to get the day ended, better to policy lynch LALL-style, I think.

[raerae]

Okay this is raerae, her stance on jimm is a bit inconsistent quite a bit.
She starts out saying it is a better lynch than insom, but goes on to say jimm is towny because she expects if he was scum to have done a 180 and started posting lots of content because kooshie was lynched for being lurky. My issue with this is that she is giving town jimm a pass for not contributing but saying scum jimm wouldn't still be a non contributor therefor jimm can't be scum. She does want him to give reads and is suprised when mail-mi finds jimm towny before jimm came in and posted reads. Next thing raerae posts is that she doesn't want to vote for jimm. Personally I still don't think jimm has given reads and contributed, but raerae you seem to just not want to vote for him, is your reason still only that you don't think scum jimm would lurk after his partner died from lurking?

At first glance, yes, jimmmmmm was the better lynch.  That was also without a read and I'm not going to throw a vote down without doing my homework.  I read jimmmmmm and I don't buy it.  Scum would not get caught twice for doing the same thing.  That isn't logical.  It's like Lekkit going after me (scum vs IC) in Buffy.  It didn't work D1 so his scum friends sure as hell weren't going to try it D2.  Yes, I know this is an extreme example but I still think it fits.  I won't vote for somebody I don't think is scum and I'm sorry you disagree with my reasons but my vote is on mail-mi and that's where it will stay until somebody gives me a logical reason for scum to lurk themselves in half two days into the game.

Also, it was a holiday weekend, guys, cut some slack.

[Eevee]

For once I 100% agree with ashersky, couldnt have said it better myself.

..then again I always seem to disagree with town ashersky.. 

[ashersky]

For once I 100% agree with ashersky, couldnt have said it better myself.

..then again I always seem to disagree with town ashersky.. 

So maybe you are scum?