Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[raerae]

OK, so post #126 is where lio suggests map claim but the pros he lists are painfully outweighed by the cons.  In what world is it ever a good idea to point scum in the direction of either town or good stuff?  I certainly don't want scum to know room I'm in, where I have been, how much money I have, or what I have or haven't purchased.  Beyond that, D1 claiming just gets right under my skin because it creates a lot of unnecessary chatter and only helps scum.  In later days, cool, let's talk about it, but it only gives scum fuel this early into the game.

He continues to push this in #133 and #136.  Also interesting is #136 is how he's in favor of a lurker lynch if nobody super scummy pops up but he is currently trying to stop a lynch on a lurker. 

#144 - again bringing up map claiming.  Then in #153, after ash accused him of a scum slip for knowing how many night kills there can be, he got super defensive.  His post didn't indicate anything the rest of the world doesn't already know, ash was clearly pointing fingers at him to get a reaction and it worked.  Lio then tried to play off being called out for being defensive in post #156.

#180 is the one that really got me thinking.  He says a semi-map claim will help scum with pillaging but that's "a small price to pay."  I disagree.  If scum are consistently pillaging and getting a good return on that, how on earth is town supposed to get any really helpful or powerful roles?  Pillaging only helps scum so to suggest that it's no big deal is very scummy in my eyes.

#271, finally gets enough heat for pushing claiming and starts to back off but then is back at it at #281. 

To avoid this getting too long (as I'm afraid it may already be), basically this boils down to me feeling like lio has been trying to lead town down a very bad path.  I don't see claiming, this early, as being any sort of helpful to town and all sorts of helpful to scum.  I understand he's backed off that now but pushed it very hard and then back off really quick.  Beyond that, when he gets kick back on his ideas, he's just been soooooo defensive and then tried to play down that defensiveness.  Also, when his ideas get shot down, he seems perfectly content to just go with the flow of traffic.  For example, #279 he will not vote no lynch today, then #331, after the conversation is back on this topic, he's totally cool with it and doesn't know why it shouldn't be considered. 

[Robz888]

Vote Count 1.6

mail-mi (1) -- mcmcsalot
liopoil (1)  -- yuma
ashersky (2) -- Lekkit, Insomniac
raerae (1) -- Jimm
mcmcsalot (1) -- ashersky
Kooshie (1) -- liopoil
Insomniac (3) -- Ozle, sudgy, mail-mi
No Lynch (1) -- xeiron

Not Voting (5) -- raerae, Eevee, sparky5856, Kooshie, Jorbles

[raerae]

Raerae has replaed patpatppat.

Sad that pats out, however...Raerae!!!!! Hello there, can't wait for your insight. Hopefully you do what I expect and ignore the ridicuous claim/non-claim arguments and start some good old fashion scum hunting. I suggest taking a look at yuma, kooshie, and mail-mi.

Why these three?

Because yuma is different than I expected him to be so have other reads I respect on him would help, mail-mi and kooshie I find somewhat scummy and you played very closely with them as well as me so I was wondering if you agreed.

Yuma is always a mystery to me.  The man is good so, sorry, but can't help you out much with this one.

Mail-mi seems to be basically typical mail-mi, nothing too concerning so far.  At least nothing out of the ordinary of him always seeming a little off.

Kooshie has been quieter than I would normally expect but she hasn't done anything I find particularly offensive.  I don't know if I'd call this scummy but I do find it odd so I've got my eye on her.

Also, forgot to do this in the last post...

Vote: liopoil

[liopoil]

OK, so post #126 is where lio suggests map claim but the pros he lists are painfully outweighed by the cons.  In what world is it ever a good idea to point scum in the direction of either town or good stuff?  I certainly don't want scum to know room I'm in, where I have been, how much money I have, or what I have or haven't purchased.  Beyond that, D1 claiming just gets right under my skin because it creates a lot of unnecessary chatter and only helps scum.  In later days, cool, let's talk about it, but it only gives scum fuel this early into the game.

He continues to push this in #133 and #136.  Also interesting is #136 is how he's in favor of a lurker lynch if nobody super scummy pops up but he is currently trying to stop a lynch on a lurker. 

#144 - again bringing up map claiming.  Then in #153, after ash accused him of a scum slip for knowing how many night kills there can be, he got super defensive.  His post didn't indicate anything the rest of the world doesn't already know, ash was clearly pointing fingers at him to get a reaction and it worked.  Lio then tried to play off being called out for being defensive in post #156.

#180 is the one that really got me thinking.  He says a semi-map claim will help scum with pillaging but that's "a small price to pay."  I disagree.  If scum are consistently pillaging and getting a good return on that, how on earth is town supposed to get any really helpful or powerful roles?  Pillaging only helps scum so to suggest that it's no big deal is very scummy in my eyes.

#271, finally gets enough heat for pushing claiming and starts to back off but then is back at it at #281. 

To avoid this getting too long (as I'm afraid it may already be), basically this boils down to me feeling like lio has been trying to lead town down a very bad path.  I don't see claiming, this early, as being any sort of helpful to town and all sorts of helpful to scum.  I understand he's backed off that now but pushed it very hard and then back off really quick.  Beyond that, when he gets kick back on his ideas, he's just been soooooo defensive and then tried to play down that defensiveness.  Also, when his ideas get shot down, he seems perfectly content to just go with the flow of traffic.  For example, #279 he will not vote no lynch today, then #331, after the conversation is back on this topic, he's totally cool with it and doesn't know why it shouldn't be considered.

At risk of sounding even more defensive, I'll try to respond to this. The main reason I've for the most part backed off the claiming thing is because I recognized that I was wrong about a lot of it. Yuma, ozle, and others convinced me. Another reason is that the discussion was obviously going nowhere and is now a waste of time.

I am in favor of a lurker lynch. I was not trying to derail the insomniac lynch, I just thought it was a bit early to be voting based on that. Insomniac still has time to come back and post lots. When it comes time to decide on who to lynch I will most likely be voting for the biggest lurker, unless there is a very good case on someone else. For now I think our time is best spent looking for a very good case on someone else (a non-lurker), which is exactly what raerae is doing.

I was never totally cool with a no lynch. I voiced disapproval and Yuma's unwillingness to consider it. when Xeiron said why he thinks we should no lynch I looked at what he said, considered it, and decided that it's probably best for a later day. I believe that anything that is potentially pro-town should be considered.

I don't understand why everyone thinks defensiveness is a scumtell. Nobody wants to be lynched, so defending yourself is always a good idea. I'd be more suspicious of people who don't defend them self. Some of you have said that it's in the way that you defend yourself that is scummy. What defense have I made that was scummy, and why?

Raerae is stretching my words in many of these points, which seems similar to me as what I did to Kooshie D1 of newbie mafia, (as scum)

[sudgy]

Actually, Liopoil is acting differently than I remember when he was scum...  This makes me think he's town.  This could change later though.

I voted for Insomniac because I'm trying to get him to post.  I don't like LaLL that much, while it can be useful sometimes (and lurking is scummy), I would rather lynch someone else.  If Insomniac suddenly was at L-1 or something, I would unvote.

[raerae]

I'm against a no lynch today.

Stretching his words?

[liopoil]

I'm against a no lynch today.

Stretching his words?

This is not stretching, my words, this is:

#331, after the conversation is back on this topic, he's totally cool with it and doesn't know why it shouldn't be considered.

my #331:

I don't know why we shouldn't even consider nolynch... if it's good for town we should do it. But I'm not so sure that it is good for town. where do you get those numbers xeiron? I guess the whole idea is it doesn't lower our misslynch number...

I'm still not sold on the idea, but willing to consider it. I considered, but think it is best for a later day. I am most certainly not "totally cool with it"

[raerae]

I'm against a no lynch today.

Stretching his words?

Balls, realize I read that wrong.  I read never in favor of a no lynch.  And on the reread of #331, I concede, he isn't as in favor as I originally read.  May have been a bit of tunneling on my part.  I retract the no lynch argument from my case but stand firm behind that rest of is.

[Ozle]

Actually, Liopoil is acting differently than I remember when he was scum...  This makes me think he's town.  This could change later though.

I voted for Insomniac because I'm trying to get him to post.  I don't like LaLL that much, while it can be useful sometimes (and lurking is scummy), I would rather lynch someone else.  If Insomniac suddenly was at L-1 or something, I would unvote.

Then whats the point of voting for him if your not intending to lynch him? Especially publically stating you would unvote. Your vote counts for nothing now.

All your doing is help build a wagon that could get him lynched then hopping off at the right opportunity.
i am voting for Insomniac because if he continues to lurk then I fully intend him to try and lynch him. I will not give lurkers a free pass.

I personally think lipoli is just wrong rather than scummy over the map thing, I dont think I have ever managed to catch a scum actively rolefishing. And in the games I have run and watched with over complicated settings, i dont think any of the scum have come out to try and get information like that in Day 1. Day 3 or 4 is another matter completely. One Way or Another we'll find out eventually...

However, getting worried about the Insomniac lynch does seem a little scummy, but not enough for my to switch, its only minor. Unless of course Insom does turn out to be scum, then it becomes a major scum tell.

[yuma]

My point about lio at this point is thus:

1. in the past few games there has been a movement toward townie members suggesting "plans." regardless of whether or not they are taken up or not. And it has become established as a fds meta of sorts that these plans are created by town. See ash in Ozle's game and in MXX, eevee to an extent in Galz' RMMM, etc, etc.

2. in the past few games there has also been a movement of scum toward the top of the posting board. See Robz in MXIX, myself in MXIX and in MXX. Scum just isn't lurking as much anymore!!! And that is great! Here is why, and is something I have said from the very beginning. It is hard to post as scum. It really, really is. As scum in multiple previous games I can attest to this. It is super, super hard. To come up with stuff to say that isn't incriminating, that doesn't have slips, that you are able to maintain throughout a game is very very difficult. And eventually, if--and this is the catch!!--you post enough, you will slip up. You will make a mistake somewhere ala Frisk in MVIII or sparky in MIX.

3. but because of this meta, players who have high post numbers are often given town leading status and are basically lynch free the entire game. again see ash and myself and robz in previous, recent games.

4. lio I believe fits the bill of a player who is coming into this game knowing that 1. crazy idea people don't get lynched, 2. high posters don't get lynch and 3. town leaders don't get lynch and tries to establish himself as all three by doing the above, but not really doing much true scumhunting--because that is where having high post counts is difficult. It really, truly is.

Now again, I may be suffering from the be suspicious of the most active player syndrome. That happens to me sometimes. And yes LALL can be successful--although to be honest for it to be successful town often has to spend an excruciating amount of time to get to that point (MXI and MXVII for Grujah and Lekkit respectively) which requires using up a large amount of our bankable time--but I think it is too early to even consider LALL. For now I am focusing on who I think is most likely to be scum and for now I think it is lio. If everyone had ~33% of being scum, I would put lio at 40%.

[raerae]

Soft-deadline suggestion: Wednesday at 8pm forum time?

[Ozle]

Soft-deadline suggestion: Wednesday at 8pm forum time?

Did I miss where the actual details on bankable details are?
Not in the first post.

Obviously if Time is Running Out then we need to get a move on....

[liopoil]

If I remember correctly it is 3 free days per mafia day, with 40 bankable days for the whole game. Average game should take ~5.8 days. average of 57.4 days total for the game. 57.4/5.8 is about 9.89 days per mafia day. First day should probably be shorter. the game started on the 14th. So I'd suggest a soft deadline of the 21st.

[raerae]

Soft-deadline suggestion: Wednesday at 8pm forum time?

Did I miss where the actual details on bankable details are?
Not in the first post.

Obviously if Time is Running Out then we need to get a move on....

No clue but there's been discussion so I made a suggestion.

[mcmcsalot]

If I remember correctly it is 3 free days per mafia day, with 40 bankable days for the whole game. Average game should take ~5.8 days. average of 57.4 days total for the game. 57.4/5.8 is about 9.89 days per mafia day. First day should probably be shorter. the game started on the 14th. So I'd suggest a soft deadline of the 21st.

This is correct, soft deadlines are rarely adhered too so I think Wednesday at 8pm forum time sounds good.

[Lekkit]

I've had a super busy weekend. Don't know if I'll be able to post much tomorrow either. Should be back at tuesday, if nothing else happens. I think lio looks pretty bad, but I'm not totally convinced he's scum.

[Jorbles]

Hey sorry, I've had other forum obligations that have been taking my time. I'm opposed to xeiron's no lynch plan. It deprives us of too much information. We can't analyze lynch wagons. I'm not opposed to a lurker lynch (as long as it's not me!), but so far here's my reads:

raerae seems to be playing pretty well since she joined up and replaced pat. slightly towny
liopoil pushing the claim argument seems kinda scummy, like he's fishing for more info, slightly scummy.
xeiron's plan to no lynch seems like bad town play rather than scum play, I don't think scum would try to push a plan like that. slightly towny, though misguded.

Ozle and yuma seem towny to me based on their strong opinions.

I have a vague memory of mcmc seeming scummy to me when I read some of his posts so I will reread him.

I guess my biggest scum read right now is liopoil though so, vote: liopoil.

[liopoil]

okay, so Yuma says I'm not scumhunting enough. this is probably true, but is primarily because I've had to defend myself so much. So I'll explain my vote on Kooshie in more detail. Yeah, I know I made a D1 case on kooshie in another dinner party that was wrong, but I was scum there. I'm town here, though many of you may disagree with that. Anyway, since kooshie has so few posts (13) I'll go over each one.

1) RVS votes me.
2) says she will say stuff soon and is busy right now. unvotes because her vote was RVS
3) criticizes ash's play, but doesn't think it is scummy. says she will be gone again, but will catch up on the weekend
4) says she'll post the following morning
5) asks me to re-explain my claiming arguement
6) says she is all caught up
7) says there might be crazy roles in the bank
says there might be crazy roles in the bank
9) asks for prod on pat instead of voting for him. re-explains her absence. Questions my FOS on her. I had explained the FOS on her previously, saying that it was because she said she was all caught up and there but not providing content.
10) asks if xeiron took town deaths into account in his calculation of town's win chances
11) I don't totally understand this one. It is in response to xeiron saying that of course he took into account town deaths, but what she says is "I meant NKs... but you did"
12) says that scum gets more benefit from walking around at night
13) Accepts that she hasn't said much, but that was because everything had already been said. Offers to post thoughts. This is her most recent post, which was over 24hrs ago.

None of these posts are more than a couple lines long. She doesn't post a single scumread or townread. many of these posts are just about how she will post later. She asks a lot of questions. she asks me to re-explain the claiming thing, to explain my FOS more, if xeiron counted NKs, and asks for a prod on pat. She states exactly two of her beliefs. One is that she doesn't like ash's play, but that it isn't neccessarily scummy. the other is that she thinks scum gets more benefit from walking around at night.

So the reason I have such a scumread on her isn't just the lack of content. There are others who haven't posted much, like insomniac. My reason is that she doesn't have an excuse or whatever anymore. in the first few days of the game she said she was busy and stuff, and this is reasonable. However, she said she would catch up and post on the weekend! In fact, she has also said that she is all caught up now! If this is so and she is town, there are tons of things for her to say. The only explanation for me is that she is scum. Since there are lots of other lurkers, she could probably get away with lurking, as long as there are a couple people below her in the post counts. I can understand everyone else's lurking, because they have sited RL thing, or at least might be busy. People are generally busy on the weekend. Kooshie however has said that she has MORE time on the weekend, and that she would post about stuff then. This is why I am actually fairly confident in this scum read. My vote is already on Kooshie.

If anyone would like the quotes to some of her posts I could do that.

Also interested to see Kooshie's response, so don't defend her if you think she's town until she's defended herself.

[sudgy]

This is turning into MXXI...  I'm starting to think either liopoil or kooshie is scum...  Right after liopoil makes a big case on kooshie...

[liopoil]

I am also thinking either liopoil or kooshie is scum.

[Eevee]

vote: kooshie

I think liopoil's case is a decent one for day 1. I'm leaning towards town on him regardless of kooshies alignment.

[liopoil]

For a second I was like "oh cool, Eevee must be town!" But then I remembered:

ummm, everyone defends themself when accused... especially when they think it is a somewhat ridiculous accusation. I think you're just trying to see how I react to this...

I think so too.  A little bit of FoS to ashersky (but I know it could be trying to see how he would respond).

Buddying.  Eevee tell.

[Jimmmmm]

Another question regarding lynch ws no lynch
Who will benefit most from wandering around in the bank?
There are more town players and if only one of us acquire something that can point out mafia we are in business. I am also inclined to think that items i general is more useful for town than for mafia.
Mafia, on the other hand, have more information and pillage makes it easier for them to afford expensive stuff earlier.
I am not sure what weights most. Do anybody have any thoughts.

Now if town benfits most, that would push probabilities in a direction favoring a no lynch
If it is the mafia, we should go lynching right away hoping to get them before they grows too strong.

Anyways, I think I have convinced myself enough to vote: no lynch

The problem with no-lynching is that it doesn't help us find scum. Even if we mislynch, it forces scum to come up with opinions, or not come up with opinions, and gives us interactions etc that we can look at for future lynches.

[Kooshie]

Honestly, I don't think that liopoil's scum.  Many people have said, "Ooh, defensiveness.  Ooh, massclaim.  Ohh, ooh, ooh."  On the defensiveness, I think that he's the kind of person that when questioned on things like that, would get a little defensive.  he came up with this idea, and thought it might actually worked.  People criticized it and questioned it in a way he probably didn't like.  He got a teensy bit offended, and when people called him scummy, he felt the need to defend himself in the way that he did.  That's what I think about his defensiveness. 
On his massclaim idea, it ties into the defensiveness.  At first it was an idea, he got a bit miffed, and then when people were toppling it and it was clear it wasn't going to work, he realized he might be lynched, and like any town player, didn't like that.  He still wanted his idea to be considered, though, so he slimmed it down, in the process realizing that it really needed slimming down.

[Kooshie]

okay, so Yuma says I'm not scumhunting enough. this is probably true, but is primarily because I've had to defend myself so much. So I'll explain my vote on Kooshie in more detail. Yeah, I know I made a D1 case on kooshie in another dinner party that was wrong, but I was scum there. I'm town here, though many of you may disagree with that. Anyway, since kooshie has so few posts (13) I'll go over each one.

1) RVS votes me.
2) says she will say stuff soon and is busy right now. unvotes because her vote was RVS
3) criticizes ash's play, but doesn't think it is scummy. says she will be gone again, but will catch up on the weekend
4) says she'll post the following morning
5) asks me to re-explain my claiming arguement
6) says she is all caught up
7) says there might be crazy roles in the bank
says there might be crazy roles in the bank
9) asks for prod on pat instead of voting for him. re-explains her absence. Questions my FOS on her. I had explained the FOS on her previously, saying that it was because she said she was all caught up and there but not providing content.
10) asks if xeiron took town deaths into account in his calculation of town's win chances
11) I don't totally understand this one. It is in response to xeiron saying that of course he took into account town deaths, but what she says is "I meant NKs... but you did"
12) says that scum gets more benefit from walking around at night
13) Accepts that she hasn't said much, but that was because everything had already been said. Offers to post thoughts. This is her most recent post, which was over 24hrs ago.

None of these posts are more than a couple lines long. She doesn't post a single scumread or townread. many of these posts are just about how she will post later. She asks a lot of questions. she asks me to re-explain the claiming thing, to explain my FOS more, if xeiron counted NKs, and asks for a prod on pat. She states exactly two of her beliefs. One is that she doesn't like ash's play, but that it isn't neccessarily scummy. the other is that she thinks scum gets more benefit from walking around at night.

So the reason I have such a scumread on her isn't just the lack of content. There are others who haven't posted much, like insomniac. My reason is that she doesn't have an excuse or whatever anymore. in the first few days of the game she said she was busy and stuff, and this is reasonable. However, she said she would catch up and post on the weekend! In fact, she has also said that she is all caught up now! If this is so and she is town, there are tons of things for her to say. The only explanation for me is that she is scum. Since there are lots of other lurkers, she could probably get away with lurking, as long as there are a couple people below her in the post counts. I can understand everyone else's lurking, because they have sited RL thing, or at least might be busy. People are generally busy on the weekend. Kooshie however has said that she has MORE time on the weekend, and that she would post about stuff then. This is why I am actually fairly confident in this scum read. My vote is already on Kooshie.

If anyone would like the quotes to some of her posts I could do that.

Also interested to see Kooshie's response, so don't defend her if you think she's town until she's defended herself.

Can you pull up the quotes?  Then I'll be able to say something. I will say I'm sorry, though, for not posting so much, while saying I would.