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[yuma]

everything isn't knowable!!! this is one of the most unknowable games I have ever played!

Do you know what every role out there could do. I don't. Do you know what other players are going to do with the information? I don't. Do you know if it will benefit scum or town? I don't. You seem to think you know. but you don't.

I am done arguing do whatever you want. You obviously have thought this completely through and have information that I don't if you are so sure that this is the right path to go down.

Actually this reminds me of ash--who did have other information--in Ozle's game and was town. But in this setup one thing we do know is that town doesn't have any extra information to start with. I am highly, highly suspicious of you right now.

[Ozle]

Of the four things you have said people should claim, I can think of perfectly valid arguments why claiming is a bad idea!

Thats with knowing what is known in the set up and not taking into account Secrets!

[mail-mi]

Sorry about my claim town. I now think that its a bad idea, and now will zip my lips 

[Eevee]

I lean towards thinking Ash is town. it was actually a fine town strategy, I like it.

Do you also garuntee scum in (lekkit, insom, mail-mi, sudgy)

What, no, of course not! How could I? I don't even think they are necesarily more likely to be scum than an average player, guaranteeing anything at this point is only possible if you are scum yourself or hacked robz's computer.

I'm against all massclaiming as well. Claim things if you think they will help, but please try to think it through before you do. This especially applies to you, Eevee.

[sudgy]

And sorry about my claim, I didn't think about how mafia might want to kill me with that.

Anyway, liopoil's actions do seem scummy...  He, at first, could have been trying to massclaim so that he and his scumbuddies could do things at night.  And he is being pretty defensive...

[Ozle]

There's a lot of times I have seen 'being defensive' is a scum tell.
I seriously hope not or pretty much all the players will be scum by the end of the game!

its the 'style' of the defence thats the tell!


easy mistake over the Key, just think carefully about what you are going to do tonight, as scum may find out exactly where you ended the night.

Right, im off for some Sweet Dreams!

Night Night

[sparky5856]

Pat was online a couple hours ago. He already has some catching up to do, best not to end up like me in Star Trek Mafia.

In response to lio's #293... that's entirely the point of "unknowable" consequences. -_-

[liopoil]

guys, I was never trying to massclaim. I started with a more lienient claiming idea, but realized it was a bad idea and now think people should claim if they have specific types of info. Really, I don't think there is anyone who should claim anything today.

of course I don't have extra special info. But the only thing we don't know about the setup if the map and the items in it. I'm having trouble understanding how it is likely that those items could change the things that I think people should claim. I can't know if it helps town or scum more, because like you said, we don't know all the items in the map. I personally think that it is more likely that the things  I suggested help town more than scum, and if I get such information I will claim it unless circumstances change.

@ozle: of course there's reasons not to claim each of those, but there are also reasons TO claim those. and about the items, it is equally possible that there are items that make it a better idea TO claim. It's a risk, and for those four things specifically, I think they are risks worth taking.

Jorbles is right though, I think it is going to be difficult to get powers, and so this is a bit of a distraction. I can't make any of you claim anything, and you guys can't make me NOT claim anything. So let's just leave it and go scumhunting.

[Kooshie]

No time to catch up more.  Only time to sleep.  I'll post in the morning, and I'm on forum time.

[liopoil]

soft deadline? I'd suggest sooner rather than later because we'll need the time in later days.

assuming no extra-kills, doc saves, no kills or no lynches (a big assumption) the game lasts anywhere from 4-7 days. It's like a best-out-of-seven, with scum needing 4misslynches to win, and town 4 scumlynches to win.

[xeiron]

A soft deadline march 22. then.

[ashersky]

Still no pat?

Prod please.

[Kooshie]

Okay.  @Liopoil, can you explain with some hard logic why the items on your claim list are better for town than scum?  I'm having a bit of a hard time processing it.  Oh, and hmm, did you not want a massclaim?  That is what that first post about claiming you had looked like...

[liopoil]

yes, I originally did think that there were a lot of things we should claim, which would be something like a massclaim. I have been dissuaded from that because those things probably help scum more than town. Now I just want us to claim a few specific things, most of which none of us know right now. Are you all caught up? I feel like this has been hashed out it quite a bit of detail and isn't worth pursing anymore, but if you want me to reiterate my reasoning then I will.

[Kooshie]

yes, I originally did think that there were a lot of things we should claim, which would be something like a massclaim. I have been dissuaded from that because those things probably help scum more than town. Now I just want us to claim a few specific things, most of which none of us know right now. Are you all caught up? I feel like this has been hashed out it quite a bit of detail and isn't worth pursing anymore, but if you want me to reiterate my reasoning then I will.

Yes, I would like you to.  I think I'm all caught up, but I'll reread a few things.

[Kooshie]

yuma, what do you think there might be that we don't know about? he posted the role PMs... and this is a normal game, so I doubt there will be any insane roles in the bank...

You never know.  I think that the only reason this isn't role madness is because you don't start with any.  Can't role madness really have any sort of roles the mod wants?

[liopoil]

Let me stress that though this sounds a bit wild, the core gameplay will still be traditional mafia-style.

[liopoil]

my main point about the unknowns is that they are probably equally likely to make claiming some things a good idea and claiming some things a bad idea.

[Kooshie]

Let me stress that though this sounds a bit wild, the core gameplay will still be traditional mafia-style.

I don't think that means that there won't be any crazy roles.  It just means that there won't be any lying, probably no cult, and no completely unexplainable things.

[liopoil]

no, it means it will be traditional mafia-style. this means no crazy roles, because there are no crazy roles in normal mafia. I'm willing to bet that the only roles are things like cop, doc, tracker, roleblocker, vig, etc., and items give you a leg-up when it comes to the vault. It is the ones that help you with the vault that are the big unknown. It could be possible that there's an item that, gives you the alignment of a player in the same room as you at night, or something like that, which would make claiming location more interesting.

[liopoil]

-key purchases
-location of items that only town would want (like doctor, or cop). to some extent also tracker/watch-like roles
-valuable investigative info (getting a scum result on a player)
-location of platinum, poorhouse, garden, or unknown rooms, unless you are in this room.

So these are the four things I think should be claimed. Key purchases help town in these ways:
-town knows that they can enter a room for a cheaper cost
-if the claimer is scum and someone enters that type room at the normal price then scum is caught.
-if claimer is town and someone enters a room at the cheaper cost then the claimer is IC.
-unknown?

helps scum:
-knows town can enter those rooms for cheaper.
-knows player X bought key, and so likely doesn't have much else (at least at this early stage)
-unknown?

I don't THINK scum killing a player who bought a key takes away the bonus from the rest of the faction. this is from the OP, where it says "Cost to enter a gold room: 5$, 2$ if gold key purchase by your faction" which seems to suggest that it just matters that is has been purchased. I PMed robz to make sure.

I feel like here the things that help town outweigh the things that help scum, because making ICs and catching scum is very very powerful. Yes, it is possible that there is an unknown that makes it a bad idea, but I believe it is worth the risk.

I'm not so sure about the claiming locations of items that town would want more than scum anymore. This is because, if you know where such an item is, then you are likely very nearby and should just buy it yourself.

valuable investigative info: this one is obvious. If you got a cop item and found scum, of course you should claim that at some point in the day. Same is true for anything similar to that.

About claiming the location of rooms: this is probably only a good idea if you aren't going to be entering that room. In general, the location of a room being public info is good, because there are more town than scum, and so town will more likely be able to get there first. There is also a good chance that all four scum already know where the room is because if just one of them was adjacent to it then they all saw it. However, it isn't a good idea to say "hey guys, there's a silver room in the upper-left corner!" because that gives away that you are in the upper left corner. That's why I only think it is a good idea to claim where a room is if it is a very good room and one that you won't be buying anything from. This doesn't take into account the unknown items, but like I said, it is also possible that the unknown makes it an even better idea to claim some things.

[liopoil]

That was in response to kooshie btw. I know most of you have already heard all that.

Vote: xeiron. He says he's here and all caught up, but hasn't said much. He suggested no lynch, and suggested a soft deadline of March 22nd, but that's just about it. FOS kooshie too for the same reason, but I chose to vote xeiron instead of her because she said she will contribute today. And of course, still waiting for patpatppat to post.

oh, and soft deadline of the 22nd sounds good to me.

[Ozle]

Ok, fed up with this now.

You try to give people hints and they just wont listen. You have probably already damaged town a slight bit, do not compound the error

Vote: Lipoli

You're wrong. I know this, Yuma knows this.

You do not know what the effects of saying those things are, trying to convince other people when they should claim is bad.

People need to claim based on what they know, NOT based on your assumptions.

"It could be possible that there's an item that, gives you the alignment of a player in the same room as you at night, or something like that, which would make claiming location more interesting."

See, this is the sort of thing I am talking about. If there IS such an item, you have now alerted the Mafia to the possibility of such an item and they will be twice as careful if they think somebody might have one of these things and now have extra information to mislead people!

Town need to be smart, if they find a way to catch out a Mafia, do it. Until they know they are going to catch out a Mafia they should NOT talk about how they are going to catch out mafia.

Im not expanding any further examples, but please please please stop discussing items and keys and keep that info Close to You unless you can use that knowledge to catch scum with it today!!

[liopoil]

Look, I was ready to drop it. kooshie wanted to hear my reasoning, so I gave it to her. I know I'm not convincing anybody.

I understand that each case is unique, and people should make that decision for them self.

Ozle, mafia know that there could be all types of items, that wasn't any new info for them.

Vote me if you think I'm scum, not because you disagree with what I'm saying.

[Ozle]

The vote was to hammer home the point. I will absolutely put it back there if I think you are hurting town .

Unvote

Right, much as I hate to kill an Absolute Beginner on Day 1, I have always been in the actually lynch lurkers camp.

Vote: patpatpat