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[mcmcsalot]

vote: mcmcsalot

That one is real.

Inflating my post count?  Hilarious.  Check the post counts of the games I've been in recently.  I've been the top poster in three or four, without silly posting.  So your accusation reeks of scum building a bad case on a good lynch.

Yes, I am a fine lynch for D1.  We all are.  I created a situation where it is easy to vote for me.  Now, all of town has a number of interactions/opinions to look at when I flip town.

I guarantee scum is currently voting for me.  Mcmc is scummiest, mail-mi's most recent vote is terrible.  There have also been some towny reactions, too.

Also, I am the king of crazy claim ideas, and I think map claiming is bad on D1.

Oh ash, your so good at reading me...defensiveness to the extent you have exerted is a scum tell. Also I meant that you are inflating your post count because you saw in previouse games that a high post count has spared you from the lynching block despite scum reads on you.

Oh and sorry if your plan of "create a situation where it is easy to vote for me(LOOK SCUMMY)" doesn't convince me scum has to be voting for you.

[Jorbles]

Pacific time.

No lynch in this situation would give us a bit of extra time to explore, but as I said I think the night game is a bit of a distraction.

I don't really have reads on anyone yet. This game is big.  Oh hey I voted in RVS. Unvote.

Hmmm. Ozle seems to be taking the game seriously, which is relatively towny I guess. ashersky's mucking about with his style of posting seemed useful to provoke some response, but I'm not sure I agree with his interpretation of his results, but I'm getting a town vibe from him. No scummy vibes yet, but I'll do a more serious reread probably near the end of the weekend.

[Kooshie]

I don't really like Ash's playing.  Yes, there are reasons for all his "tells" but they distract me from what ever else he posted, if anything else.  It isn't scummy play, but please, Ashersky, do it a bit less.

I'm going to be gone for another 3 or so hours, proabably more.  I will post a lot on the weekend to make up for this.

[liopoil]

I will say this:  I'm in the room with the gold key.  It costs $6.  Unfortunately, I have no money.

Probably a bad claim. A townie shouldn't claim this, they should claim it AFTER they've bought the key. I'm fairly certain that anyone who buys a key should claim this the next day, because it can create ICs/catch scum easily, and gives town very helpful info that isn't worth much to scum.

Theres a silver room kinda close to me, but thats all I got.

Also worthless, because we don't know where mail-mi is. If he's town, all he did was tell scum that he has access to a silver room, and not much else, which helps them consider NKs

vote: liopoil

he suggests lynching someone that is scummy (ie, not pro-town) as he proposes something that he esteems to be pro-town, all the while knowing that fds meta establishes people who come up with these crazy ideas as always town.

he then suggests if that doesn't work, that we lynch someone who is lurking as he continues to post far more than he has in any other game i have seen.

Maybe this is a situation where I am concentrating on the player who is most active... but at this point, and it is very early in the game, I think lio is my biggest scum read at this juncture in that he is trying to come out and establish himself as town with high post counts and a "pro-town" plan.

PS: I am against any sort of mass claim. It is bad. Always bad until like day4 when it can be organized by someone with implicit town trust. Anytime I have ever entertained the idea was 1. for flavor purposes in Ozle's game--where I think it turned out to be bad--or 2. I was scum.

I am not trying to inflate my post count, I am trying to contribute as much as I can. Town wants to be as pro-town as possible, so of course I suggest a plan I think is pro-town. And yes, I don't want to be lynched, because being lynch is almost always bad for the lynched player, which you should know Yuma, being so against self-voting... and I really do think LALL is a very good idea in general D1. Not only are lurkers more often scum than non-lurkers (see-robz's last game), but lynching a town-lurker is better than lynching a town-not lurker. Similarly, it is better to lynch a lurker-scum than a non-lurker scum, because lurking scum are very hard to catch unless we lynch them for lurking. lynching for lurking happens less in later days because of better cases, and so it is best to lynch them early. It also saves lots of time (we have bankable deadlines), and is one of the better cases against a player D1.

note about pillage: I PMed robz some questions about how night actions are resolved, and from his response it seems that the following is true:

night has two phases. first there's all the moving and buying. after this has been resolved there's all of the night actions, including powers bought, pillage, and the scum NK. This means that even if scum knows a player's exact location, to be able to pillage them they need to A) guess correctly where they moved to, or way they stayed, or have an item which lets them see other players, and B) actually have a scum player in the same room as them. seems unlikely.

[liopoil]

I'm against a no lynch today.

[Eevee]

I lean towards thinking Ash is town. it was actually a fine town strategy, I like it.

[liopoil]

claiming:

I don't think a townie giving away their location is terrible, if they have useful info. This is because it is still unlikely that they will be successfully pillaged, as I showed a couple posts earlier. Also, if a townie who can see other people is pillaged for all their cash then they caught scum! It doesn't give scum info about what items a player might have, because if they've bought an item then it no longer shows up on the map. It would however give scum info about what they have if they bought it from a room that scum had already been to. claiming where items are does tell scum where the items are, so they can get there first potentially. however, there are more town than scum, so town has a better chance of getting there first. so here's where I stand on what to claim and what not to claim:

Do NOT claim:
-exact location
-bought items
-location of items that scum might purchase
-amount of money owned

Claim:
-key purchases
-location of items that only town would want (like doctor, or cop). to some extent also tracker/watch-like roles
-valuable investigative info (getting a scum result on a player)
-location of platinum, poorhouse, garden, or unknown rooms, unless you are in this room.

my reasoning behind claiming location of those types of rooms:

I think that public info of the location of ANY room is good for town, because there are more town than scum. However, the only way  for the location of a room to become public info is for a player to reveal what area of the bank they are in. I think it is only worth it to do this for these types of rooms, because they are likely the best types of rooms.

Now that sudgy claimed what he did, we should make the most of it. We should decide if sudgy, if he has at least 6$ at the beginning of this night, should buy the gold key. I think that he should, and I remember mcmc also saying that he thinks sudgy should. If he doesn't have 6$ then I think he should probably leave the key behind. (it costs 2 after night 3 anyway, so buying it N2 would only help for one day.)

[ashersky]

Dude.  Items only town would want like doc and cop?  What are you saying?

Mafia want to take those roles out of our hands, at the very least.

[liopoil]

well, yes, they would. However, those roles are likely quite expensive. I think mafia would rather go find a roleblocking device or vig or something.

[ashersky]

well, yes, they would. However, those roles are likely quite expensive. I think mafia would rather go find a roleblocking device or vig or something.

If they buy the cop card, they don't need to worry about figuring out who has it to try to Roleblock.

[liopoil]

there's a good chance nobody will buy the cop card for another night or two if they just leave it there.

[mcmcsalot]

I am very against claiming anything related to purchased items or location of items.
Keys and rooms up for debate.

[ashersky]

I am very against claiming anything related to purchased items or location of items.
Keys and rooms up for debate.

Like, if someone got a crap load of info last night, or something that helped the whole town, let us know.  Otherwise, this is clearly a point in the game where we do not want to share details that only we know.  Scum knows too much already.

[mcmcsalot]

I lean towards thinking Ash is town. it was actually a fine town strategy, I like it.

Do you also garuntee scum in (lekkit, insom, mail-mi, sudgy)

@ashersky: just informing you incase you didn't realize I haven't voted for you. So either your vote on me is wrong or congrats you've narrowed down 50% of the scum team to a pool of 5 people.

[mcmcsalot]

I am very against claiming anything related to purchased items or location of items.
Keys and rooms up for debate.

Like, if someone got a crap load of info last night, or something that helped the whole town, let us know.  Otherwise, this is clearly a point in the game where we do not want to share details that only we know.  Scum knows too much already.

I agree with this.

[yuma]

claiming:

I don't think a townie giving away their location is terrible, if they have useful info. This is because it is still unlikely that they will be successfully pillaged, as I showed a couple posts earlier. Also, if a townie who can see other people is pillaged for all their cash then they caught scum! It doesn't give scum info about what items a player might have, because if they've bought an item then it no longer shows up on the map. It would however give scum info about what they have if they bought it from a room that scum had already been to. claiming where items are does tell scum where the items are, so they can get there first potentially. however, there are more town than scum, so town has a better chance of getting there first. so here's where I stand on what to claim and what not to claim:

Do NOT claim:
-exact location
-bought items
-location of items that scum might purchase
-amount of money owned

Claim:
-key purchases
-location of items that only town would want (like doctor, or cop). to some extent also tracker/watch-like roles
-valuable investigative info (getting a scum result on a player)
-location of platinum, poorhouse, garden, or unknown rooms, unless you are in this room.

my reasoning behind claiming location of those types of rooms:

I think that public info of the location of ANY room is good for town, because there are more town than scum. However, the only way  for the location of a room to become public info is for a player to reveal what area of the bank they are in. I think it is only worth it to do this for these types of rooms, because they are likely the best types of rooms.

Now that sudgy claimed what he did, we should make the most of it. We should decide if sudgy, if he has at least 6$ at the beginning of this night, should buy the gold key. I think that he should, and I remember mcmc also saying that he thinks sudgy should. If he doesn't have 6$ then I think he should probably leave the key behind. (it costs 2 after night 3 anyway, so buying it N2 would only help for one day.)

regardless of whether or not I agree with any of the above you are missing the biggest point and that is not taking into account the unaccountable, the unknowables. So often when a mass claim of any type comes about something happens that is unpredictable--and generally that unpredictable part is bad, very bad. You are also going to far in assuming that the good things will actually be good and that the bad things won't be as bad.

Claim = bad.

But like I said before--and it has already been proven by your post--I can't control what town does in regard to claiming. You all will do what ever you want. But my opinion on the subject is to say absolutely nothing and you will get absolutely nothing from me.

[yuma]

oh and I continue to vote: lio

[sudgy]

Pat needs to come here.  Vote: patpatppat

[liopoil]

yuma, what do you think there might be that we don't know about? he posted the role PMs... and this is a normal game, so I doubt there will be any insane roles in the bank...

[ashersky]

I lean towards thinking Ash is town. it was actually a fine town strategy, I like it.

Do you also garuntee scum in (lekkit, insom, mail-mi, sudgy)

@ashersky: just informing you incase you didn't realize I haven't voted for you. So either your vote on me is wrong or congrats you've narrowed down 50% of the scum team to a pool of 5 people.

I voted you for the "he is inflating his post count" argument.  I saw you hadn't voted.

[Ozle]

yuma, what do you think there might be that we don't know about? he posted the role PMs... and this is a normal game, so I doubt there will be any insane roles in the bank...

Are you still pushing for giving away info?
Stop Right Now.
thanks.

Dont give away anything until we need too. Especially not day 1! Lets get the lay of the land first

[yuma]

yuma, what do you think there might be that we don't know about? he posted the role PMs... and this is a normal game, so I doubt there will be any insane roles in the bank...

I don't know! Did you catch the part where I said unknowable.

But for an example... town could lie. How many times has that happened in a mass claim. Now you say, well then town shouldn't lie. Yes, they shouldn't. But town does lie sometimes. I dont' know why, sometimes it is a good reason, sometimes it isn't... All I know is that you are putting forward this plan thinking that you know all of the intangibles. But in fact you don't, because you can't.

Even plans that seem to be straightforward... like ash's plan from XX could have unintended consequences down the road. And try as hard as you might to come up with all of those potentials you can't predict them all.

I guess this is my real beef with mass claims this early.

They are always an attempt to give town--or at least pretend that is the purpose--an advantage over scum. This implies that the setup is designed in a way in which mass claiming gain be benefcial to scum. But most mods--and in this case Robz--are very aware of this and take it into consideration when planning out a game. So either they prevent mass claiming in someway, limit it or create a setup that punishes mass claiming. I think it is very rare that mass claiming actually helps town this early, but every game some new genius thinks he found a way to gain that elusive advantage. This is another situation. You think it will help town. But I am willing to bet that it will actually hurt.

SO STOP!

[Ozle]

I can think of several ways scum could already have benefitted from the information given!

Ive already explained the most obvious one, im not doing anymore!

[ashersky]

I can think of several ways scum could already have benefitted from the information given!

Ive already explained the most obvious one, im not doing anymore!

Agreed.

[liopoil]

look, guys, did you read my most recent post on claiming? I mentioned several things that shouldn't be claimed, which includes the things mail-mi and sudgy claimed. I am not claiming anything today because I don't have anything I think is worth claiming. In fact, at this point very few people probably do have anything worse claiming. I am not suggesting everyone claim anything, I am saying that there are some things that some people might know that is probably worth claiming. and just because something can help town doesn't mean it can't help town more. I agree that the setup takes into account for massclaiming with things like pillage. Of the four things I think are worth claiming, I doubt anyone has made any key purchases, seen any PRs which town cares about more than scum, or has any investigative info.

well, when you said unknowable, that's a bit confusing because this setup is 100% open except for the map. so are you saying that there might be an item that changes everything?