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[TheMunch]

I think we might actually learn a lot of we play our cards right.  The thing is it sets a tone.  It is very dangerous for scum to hammer other scum, so yes we will see them avoid hammering someone then we found both scum, great.  BUT what I'm trying to work out is how to handle scum (if we pick them to hammer a town instead) their overeagerness to do so under the guise of "well I was just listening to IC insom" so this is something I want to talk about.

[Eevee]

Plan sounds good. I'm fine with doing whatever Ins asks me to do.

As for your reads, ughhh. I just reread the whole game yesterday and got nada. I understand why you could think mcmc is town, but I haven't gotten any scummy vibes from anyone. Galzria is in so so many games these days, him not posting that much isn't that much of a tell anymore. If you have reads though ins, that's excellent. I'm ready to sheep you whatever they are, as long as it doesn't include me self-voting.

[mcmcsalot]

I think we might actually learn a lot of we play our cards right.  The thing is it sets a tone.  It is very dangerous for scum to hammer other scum, so yes we will see them avoid hammering someone then we found both scum, great.  BUT what I'm trying to work out is how to handle scum (if we pick them to hammer a town instead) their overeagerness to do so under the guise of "well I was just listening to IC insom" so this is something I want to talk about.

Exactly an if we are wrong on the first lynch we reasses and do the same with our new #1 and #2 scum reads.

Also referring to your post above, this is why we need participating and willing town members. Town hammering town is just one mislynch town hammering scum is one mislynch. Neither of these kill us and we can recover from. Scum hammering scum is something they cannot recover from.

[jotheonah]

I'm confused - I thought that we had to do two lynches before we got a flip? And if both those hammerers get vengekilled, that's five deaths before Day 2 starts? That can't be right.

I don't really have any scum reads yet. Need to do a reread now I know what to look for.

[Insomniac]

Jo we get a flip after the first one so if actually like to get going on that

[mcmcsalot]

Plan sounds good. I'm fine with doing whatever Ins asks me to do.

As for your reads, ughhh. I just reread the whole game yesterday and got nada. I understand why you could think mcmc is town, but I haven't gotten any scummy vibes from anyone. Galzria is in so so many games these days, him not posting that much isn't that much of a tell anymore. If you have reads though ins, that's excellent. I'm ready to sheep you whatever they are, as long as it doesn't include me self-voting.

Eevee this worries me, insom has no more knowledge of the game then you do. If you are town why would you want to just sheep everything he says, he's ic this means I will never have a scum read on him, this doesn't mean I can't disagree with his reads. I think a big reason we won ZMIX is because we played robz and insom very well and the town just sheeped the ic's.

So I hope you will not sheep the ic, I hope you vocalize and argue with him, support your own reads, ic means we don't vote for him not he's god.

Infact decent scum read on you because you should've none sheeping the ic is bad to we're scum with me in ZMIX

[Insomniac]

2 mega posts and 1 post incoming.

[jotheonah]

Jo we get a flip after the first one so if actually like to get going on that

But the vengekill only happens if scum is lynched. Got it.

[jotheonah]

Plan sounds good. I'm fine with doing whatever Ins asks me to do.

As for your reads, ughhh. I just reread the whole game yesterday and got nada. I understand why you could think mcmc is town, but I haven't gotten any scummy vibes from anyone. Galzria is in so so many games these days, him not posting that much isn't that much of a tell anymore. If you have reads though ins, that's excellent. I'm ready to sheep you whatever they are, as long as it doesn't include me self-voting.

Eevee this worries me, insom has no more knowledge of the game then you do. If you are town why would you want to just sheep everything he says, he's ic this means I will never have a scum read on him, this doesn't mean I can't disagree with his reads. I think a big reason we won ZMIX is because we played robz and insom very well and the town just sheeped the ic's.

So I hope you will not sheep the ic, I hope you vocalize and argue with him, support your own reads, ic means we don't vote for him not he's god.

Infact decent scum read on you because you should've none sheeping the ic is bad to we're scum with me in ZMIX

townread on mcmc retracted.

[TheMunch]

Plan sounds good. I'm fine with doing whatever Ins asks me to do.

As for your reads, ughhh. I just reread the whole game yesterday and got nada. I understand why you could think mcmc is town, but I haven't gotten any scummy vibes from anyone. Galzria is in so so many games these days, him not posting that much isn't that much of a tell anymore. If you have reads though ins, that's excellent. I'm ready to sheep you whatever they are, as long as it doesn't include me self-voting.

Eevee this worries me, insom has no more knowledge of the game then you do. If you are town why would you want to just sheep everything he says, he's ic this means I will never have a scum read on him, this doesn't mean I can't disagree with his reads. I think a big reason we won ZMIX is because we played robz and insom very well and the town just sheeped the ic's.

So I hope you will not sheep the ic, I hope you vocalize and argue with him, support your own reads, ic means we don't vote for him not he's god.

Infact decent scum read on you because you should've none sheeping the ic is bad to we're scum with me in ZMIX

I had this exact same thought.  I'm going to answer any questions Insom asks of me and for the most part follow his commands.  But I sure as hell wont sheep his reads.  Our reads help inform Insomniacs reads.  If everyone literally did nothing but sheep Insom's reads, it would be impossible for Insomniac to find scum.

PPE: Maybe I'm swayed too much in general by people that I agree with but this gives me a stronger town read on mcmc.  Hey guys, I'm gonna do an insomniac: I got 2 scum reads!

[Insomniac]

So, conflicting. On the other hand I feel like trying to feel it out and being careful with my votes given it's a new setup. On the other hand, no games never get anywhere unless people actually commit to voting for the people they find scummy, so eh. But, the first half of day 1 should run pretty close to how it normally would, except no "lock" situation will ever be reached which never was an issue in blitz in the first place.

I would like EVERYONE to comment on this post and how it reflects on Eevee.

Responses:

This seems like innocent eevee trying to figure out the setup, and being posotive about it, I got me some towny feels goin on over here.

Pretty typical Eevee. I don't get much out of it at all though, really.

I remember way back in blitz whatever, Eevee wanted to play "Sheep the IC", and even though almost every single person in the game disagreed with him, he absolutely would not back down over why it was a good idea. He was, of course, town.

Town!Eevee comes into new setups looking for the optimal play. If he thinks he's found it, he'll pursue it relentlessly. He has complete conviction in his ideas, regardless of what others think.

Here I get more of a sense that he was testing the waters, trying to see where people stand on how to use their votes. This slightly hedgy "maybe this way... But then maybe this way..." Eevee doesn't read as the same Eevee that takes his convictions and runs with them.

So I get a slight - SLIGHT - scum vibe from it. Because honestly at the end of the day this could just as easily be Town!Eevee just being uncomfortable with a new setup. In the end, it's not worth a vote over, but it does make me more aware of him.

So, conflicting. On the other hand I feel like trying to feel it out and being careful with my votes given it's a new setup. On the other hand, no games never get anywhere unless people actually commit to voting for the people they find scummy, so eh. But, the first half of day 1 should run pretty close to how it normally would, except no "lock" situation will ever be reached which never was an issue in blitz in the first place.

I would like EVERYONE to comment on this post and how it reflects on Eevee.

It gives me a slightly scummy vibe, outside of Eevee's meta. It has the stink of IIoA.

But it could so very easily be town Eevee, I don't place much store.

I don't know what you are looking for here. It's how I feel about this new setup: I'm confused as how to best tackle it. I honestly hoped someone would start posting mad theory and I'd get to think about different strategies through posts of others. I'm bad at figuring stuff out on my own.

So this was your question, Insom?  I dont actually understand Eevees post.  "I feel we should be careful with our vote but also vote cause we cant lynch anyone if we dont vote for anyone" feels like a nothing statement to me.  Also I dont know what he means by "lock".

In answer to Insom's question, I got a nullread from Eevee's post. It's either Town wondering about the setup or scum trying to imitate his Town play, and I don't have a particular leaning one way or another.

No Response: Cuzz

[Eevee]

Oh, I didnt mean to imply I'll just sheep Ins all game. better wording: Yes, the plan is good, ill be the hammerman if ins so decides. no objections, it's protown ill follow unless it requires me to selfvote.

separate note, I regret to inform despite doing a reread, I don't have very strong reads, just the knowledge of my own towniness. so, ins having reads already is excellent, because if I have to sheep someone which would be the case if the dl was now, I'd rather have it be a smart strong town player that's also an IC.

[mcmcsalot]

Joth why do you no longer find me townie

[Insomniac]

Additionally I would like everyone to weigh in on how Robz/Mcmc/Galz all reacted to the theory that gave town a guaranteed win.

Responses:

I think all three of us reacted the only "safe" way to react... exploit the situation for maximum breaking easiness of town victory.

The only thing I gleam from robz an galz post is robz didn't suggest he stay alive, he suggested insom pick the person he trusted most. Seems like a really dumb scum slip but still get slight scum vibes because of that.

Slight town points all around, I guess.

But really, they reacted like Dominion players who just found a game breaking combo. Which is to say, with deviant glee. Damnit, that's a magic card, isn't it?

The only reason I give slight points there is that I imagine a certain sort of scum player might react by freaking out and trying to derail the idea/ keeping quiet for fear of helping town to a cheap win. But I don't really imagine any of the three of them would be that sort of shortsighted player as scum - I think they're all smart enough to go in for the free and easy towncred.

Well, I don't know mcmc as well and he is newer to the game. If anyone would have been spooked by that as town it ought to have been him, so I guess he does actually look pretty good.

I think it got to the point where it was obvious that the game needed a fix, and scum have a little more reason to want it fixed than Town do. So explicitly explaining how the game is broken and how Town can immediately win on day one could come from scum.  I mean, you could say that scum would say "Nah that wouldn't work let's not do that", but that wouldn't be very smart. So I'd say it's a pretty null read for all. Except, you know, Insom.

Meh, I mean I don't think how people react to stuff like that has got anything to do with alignments really. Didn't glean anything from it. Fwiw I would have suggested "lets not do this, at least not before ashersky gets a chance to give us a green light. Seems like a boring way to end a possibly awesome game."

No Responses: Galz, Cuzz, TheMunch

[jotheonah]

Joth why do you no longer find me townie

I still do for the most part, but that virulent reaction against Eevee sheeping the IC raised a red flag.

WHAT you were saying makes sense, but it's also the case that scum wants to reduce our trust in the IC as much as possible, and seems like you jumped right on a chance to do just that.

[Insomniac]

Post Count: EXCLUDING PRE GAME. (Including this post)

Robz888 - 13
Eevee - 11
Galzria - 2
Insomniac - 25
Jotheonah - 14
Jimmmmm - 7
TheMunch - 10
Cuzz - 0
mcmcsalot - 19

[TheMunch]

Insom, I responded to the second question.

[TheMunch]

I responded in 193.

[Insomniac]

Vote: Cuzz - Zero posts is unnacceptable
Vote: Galzria - 2 posts is also unnacceptable

[Eevee]

I don't agree that I shouldn't for the most part just sheep the IC RIGHT QT THIS MOMENT. If evenrereading the thread hasnt given me any reads I feel I can trust, what else can i do? This is what i was talking about in the "if no one votes, game never gets moving" post. thats how i feel. Obviously I look forward to Ins presenting his cases so I can evaluate and comment on them.

[Insomniac]

Scum Reads:
Galzria - Galzria responded to the Eevee question in the way I was looking for, I set that question up to see who reacted by saying he was scummy, because I expected scum to think I thought that post was scummy. Galzria did this. Additionally I did NOT like his first post about the game breaking we were attempting, I thought he was reacting a bit like scum scared to pull the trigger on an auto loss


Strong Town Reads:
Mcmc - I DID like how MCMC responded to the game breaking early, he was completely supportive of it and more so than Galz/Robz contributed to finding it.

Town Read:
Joth - I have a town read on joth just based on meta reasons.

Slight Town Read:
Munch - He seems pretty genuinely helpful this game and has contributed some good ideas to the theory.

Null: Everyone else.

[Insomniac]

At this point my intent is fully revealed, these are my honest reads

[Eevee]

I I follow, I follow you deep sea baby, etc

vote: cuzz
vote: galzria

Insomniac's justification is reasonable, agreed. Although Galzria missed the end of ds9 and cuzz wasn't around much either so both probably have had scarce access.

[Insomniac]

BTW for the first lynch I want Galz to hammer Cuzz.

[Galzria]

Scum Reads:
Galzria - Galzria responded to the Eevee question in the way I was looking for, I set that question up to see who reacted by saying he was scummy, because I expected scum to think I thought that post was scummy. Galzria did this. Additionally I did NOT like his first post about the game breaking we were attempting, I thought he was reacting a bit like scum scared to pull the trigger on an auto loss


Strong Town Reads:
Mcmc - I DID like how MCMC responded to the game breaking early, he was completely supportive of it and more so than Galz/Robz contributed to finding it.

Town Read:
Joth - I have a town read on joth just based on meta reasons.

Slight Town Read:
Munch - He seems pretty genuinely helpful this game and has contributed some good ideas to the theory.

Null: Everyone else.

Your wrong as usual Insomniac. I responded as Town trying to poke wholes in the idea because if I could find a fucking way then so could scum and guess who would look like an idiot then?

And guess what? Here's the break in your "Oh so perfect town win":

Eevee votes all.
Robz votes all.
Galz votes all.
Joth votes all.

All unvote you.

But let's assume one of those 4 is scum.

Ready for this?

Scum unvotes just ONE buddy (or all. Doesn't matter) and his buddy NOT voting votes all for the massive town hammer. And don't think for a second they can't coordinate that. They've coordinated a 15 second tri-hammer in the past. But you'll remember that well, won't you, seeing as you were the IC who set up that win for then then as well.