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[Eevee]

The one who sticks out to me most atm is Grujah; his "blah" attitude reminds me of scum-Grujah. Where did your initial scum vibe on Frisk come from Eevee? He was the one who proposed the mason debate. It's a possibility that scum is trying to out the masons early, but the opposite scenario is plausible as well.

Mason talk came kind of fast, which could meant that he had already been planning this in the QT before posting. Not a lot, I know. Also I got the impression he was ready to be here to talk about sports with SfS without really giving any comments to any other issues, but reread proved that to be a false statement.

So, just to be clear, I'm totally neutral on Frisk's alignment this far. Hasn't played townier or scummier than average, I don't think.

[sparky5856]

The one who sticks out to me most atm is Grujah; his "blah" attitude reminds me of scum-Grujah. Where did your initial scum vibe on Frisk come from Eevee? He was the one who proposed the mason debate. It's a possibility that scum is trying to out the masons early, but the opposite scenario is plausible as well.

Mason talk came kind of fast, which could meant that he had already been planning this in the QT before posting. Not a lot, I know. Also I got the impression he was ready to be here to talk about sports with SfS without really giving any comments to any other issues, but reread proved that to be a false statement.

So, just to be clear, I'm totally neutral on Frisk's alignment this far. Hasn't played townier or scummier than average, I don't think.

He could be scum, or he could be a mason himself, by the logic of the first sentence. Or he's just quick to act. We were given this setup days beforehand, so that's actually a lot of time to think about the masons. It's not a lot to go on, I agree.

[Eevee]

I like to post what I think. Especially on a blitz setup I think it's important to keep things moving.

If I ever get spammy though, just tell me and I'll start to self-filter.

[Jimmmmm]

This. But also if Mason dies before first mafia than they are useless. Maybe reveal at first deadline (that is, just as first guy dies?)

This seems silly to me. I think the point of not claiming is so that scum won't necessarily hit a Mason with their vengekill. If they're going to claim before night 1, it should either be early enough that we don't have to worry about suspecting them, or in order to save themselves.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

49er's look awesome, Patriots look like St. Louis, so I gave up.  I'm caught up to 103.  This is my first game with Masons, so I don't really have an opinion on what is best.  I see the advantages and disadvantages to both sides.

I do have two observations:

FoS: Robz.

Consider this progression:
First in #61

Okay. Then... I think Masons should just claim, and we play this like the previous game, expect [sic] our ICs can talk in private. Which I am guessing is a HUGE benefit.

Robz wouldn't have to guess what sort of value daychat has.  He was mafia in ZM5, and had daychat.

Then immediately in #62, a stronger opinion:

Yeah. I'm like almost positive that's what we should do. Or else we could waste half this day building cases on people that should just be acquitted.

But in #71, in response to Eevee, we get this:

There seem to be differing opinions on the subject. I personally think it's close / don't know, so I would prefer if the actual masons hashed it out in their QT and decided themselves. That way it at least won't be scum-affected. Thoughts?

Yeah. I hope the Masons do discuss this, and if they agree with me that coming forward is best, they should do it (and I might be one of these masons!).

This seems like a) an effort to agree with Eevee; b) a bit of distancing from the strength of his earlier opinion, and c) a half-hearted 'the Masons should make up their own minds' and c) .  But it's the weird last add-on that strikes me most oddly.  It seems... folksy? in a really disingenuous way.  It also subtly echoes (through reversal) Eevee's "Not saying whether I'm a mason or not obviously, despite the use of the word "they"" from #47.  It stood out.  I also remember the way Robz outed himself D1 in the blitz game where he was the doctor (ZM4?)
discussing the 'lawman should claim, and doc protect him' plan.  Because of that, I don't think Robz would push a plan for Masons to claim if he were a Mason.

Only one other thing has stood out so far, so FoS: Grujah

In #51, he states:

Just a reminder, this was a ninja start, so don't expect all fellow players to be aware the game is ongoing yet.  That's part of the reason for the 48-hour Day 1.  Subsequent days will be 24 hours.

Also, a quick reminder that unique votes will start to be counted at some point by mods.

Ugh, didn't know about that tiebreaker, should have read rules more carefully.

What if there is a tie of unique votes too?

I'm always disappointed when someone hasn't read the rules - look at all the recent problems with folks not reading the rules in various games, mafia and otherwise.  In fairness, Grujah stated in another post he hasn't been around much lately, so he may not know what has transpired lately.  Also in fairness, not reading the rules may make one foolish, but it doesn't make one scummy, in and of itself.  But #66 also stood out:

Yeah. I'm like almost positive that's what we should do. Or else we could waste half this day building cases on people that should just be acquitted.

Hmm.. or you might be right, we are actually tight on time, and wasting is more of an issue than normal..

I checked, and Grujah has played one blitz game here, ZM1.  That game had 24 hour days, and 12 hour nights, so he knows what can be accomplished in 24 hours.  Here (for Day 1) we have 48 hours, double the time.  If he had only ever played non-blitz, I can see him feeling rushed, but such is not the case.  The comment just rings a little false to me, and it's juxtaposed with a bit of a hedge on his original position (see#66), which was that it's better for the masons to stay hidden.

I'm off to bed.  Have fun all.  I've got stuff to do in the AM, so may not be on until afternoon.

[Jimmmmm]

FoS: Robz.

Consider this progression:
First in #61

Okay. Then... I think Masons should just claim, and we play this like the previous game, expect [sic] our ICs can talk in private. Which I am guessing is a HUGE benefit.

Robz wouldn't have to guess what sort of value daychat has.  He was mafia in ZM5, and had daychat.

I don't know, I didn't really see anything scummy about this. I guess daychat between ICs is probably quite different to daychat between scum. I took this to mean "I'm guessing it would have been helpful last game when we were ICs." And I agree, it would have.

Then immediately in #62, a stronger opinion:

Yeah. I'm like almost positive that's what we should do. Or else we could waste half this day building cases on people that should just be acquitted.

But in #71, in response to Eevee, we get this:

There seem to be differing opinions on the subject. I personally think it's close / don't know, so I would prefer if the actual masons hashed it out in their QT and decided themselves. That way it at least won't be scum-affected. Thoughts?

Yeah. I hope the Masons do discuss this, and if they agree with me that coming forward is best, they should do it (and I might be one of these masons!).

This seems like a) an effort to agree with Eevee; b) a bit of distancing from the strength of his earlier opinion, and c) a half-hearted 'the Masons should make up their own minds' and c) .  But it's the weird last add-on that strikes me most oddly.  It seems... folksy? in a really disingenuous way.  It also subtly echoes (through reversal) Eevee's "Not saying whether I'm a mason or not obviously, despite the use of the word "they"" from #47.  It stood out.  I also remember the way Robz outed himself D1 in the blitz game where he was the doctor (ZM4?)
discussing the 'lawman should claim, and doc protect him' plan.  Because of that, I don't think Robz would push a plan for Masons to claim if he were a Mason.

Yeah I'm in a little more agreement here. From playing with Robz, he's generally not afraid to speak his mind on theory and assume he's right: "I thought this wasn't a controversial opinion?" The "Actually yes, Masons should decide" seems like it could be a bit of a backflip, or not wanting to come across like he's pushy or something? I don't know. Maybe he's just not as sure about this as he has been about other things.

[Jimmmmm]

Only one other thing has stood out so far, so FoS: Grujah

[...]

But #66 also stood out:

Yeah. I'm like almost positive that's what we should do. Or else we could waste half this day building cases on people that should just be acquitted.

Hmm.. or you might be right, we are actually tight on time, and wasting is more of an issue than normal..

I checked, and Grujah has played one blitz game here, ZM1.  That game had 24 hour days, and 12 hour nights, so he knows what can be accomplished in 24 hours.  Here (for Day 1) we have 48 hours, double the time.  If he had only ever played non-blitz, I can see him feeling rushed, but such is not the case.  The comment just rings a little false to me, and it's juxtaposed with a bit of a hedge on his original position (see#66), which was that it's better for the masons to stay hidden.

I'm off to bed.  Have fun all.  I've got stuff to do in the AM, so may not be on until afternoon.

I don't really see the difference between what Robz said and Grujah agreeing that it might be true.  I mean, Robz has played a bunch of Blitz games (read: all of them), so if Grujah should know what we can achieve in 24 hours, surely Robz should too. On the other hand I kind of feel like your "nah we have plenty of time" was a bit of an overcompensation. We don't have plenty of time. We have enough time. Of course, what we shouldn't do is wait until deadline and then pile the votes on someone. We need to give ourselves time for the claim, which is fairly obvious.

Of course, I disagree with Grujah's Mason point in #66 entirely, so I'll agree with the FoS.

[Eevee]

I don't think theory issues like this are a great way to catch scum. In my experience people don't make up opinions, and even if they did it would be very hard to tell because so many people disagree anyways.

[Grujah]

This seems like a) an effort to agree with Eevee; b) a bit of distancing from the strength of his earlier opinion, and c) a half-hearted 'the Masons should make up their own minds' and c) .  But it's the weird last add-on that strikes me most oddly.  It seems... folksy? in a really disingenuous way.  It also subtly echoes (through reversal) Eevee's "Not saying whether I'm a mason or not obviously, despite the use of the word "they"" from #47.  It stood out.  I also remember the way Robz outed himself D1 in the blitz game where he was the doctor (ZM4?)
discussing the 'lawman should claim, and doc protect him' plan.  Because of that, I don't think Robz would push a plan for Masons to claim if he were a Mason.

Only one other thing has stood out so far, so FoS: Grujah

Should vote Robz everytime than, he almost never reads the setup completely

Thing is, even though I did read it and do know that there is no night, whenever I try to theorycraft I cannot shift into "no-night" mode, I even made this error in-thread. Similar with Blitz mode, with which I have no experience as last time I died D1.

So far, no real reads, but SFS seems townish. Sparky seems scummy i guess, also is going for semantics.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

This seems like a) an effort to agree with Eevee; b) a bit of distancing from the strength of his earlier opinion, and c) a half-hearted 'the Masons should make up their own minds' and c) .  But it's the weird last add-on that strikes me most oddly.  It seems... folksy? in a really disingenuous way.  It also subtly echoes (through reversal) Eevee's "Not saying whether I'm a mason or not obviously, despite the use of the word "they"" from #47.  It stood out.  I also remember the way Robz outed himself D1 in the blitz game where he was the doctor (ZM4?)
discussing the 'lawman should claim, and doc protect him' plan.  Because of that, I don't think Robz would push a plan for Masons to claim if he were a Mason.

Only one other thing has stood out so far, so FoS: Grujah

Should vote Robz everytime than, he almost never reads the setup completely

Thing is, even though I did read it and do know that there is no night, whenever I try to theorycraft I cannot shift into "no-night" mode, I even made this error in-thread. Similar with Blitz mode, with which I have no experience as last time I died D1.

So far, no real reads, but SFS seems townish. Sparky seems scummy i guess, also is going for semantics.

My comment wasn't related to the no night part of this setup.  It was about the fact that you have played in a game with 24-hour deadlines. And yes, you died D1 in ZM1, and were town, but you didn't post very much at all, so to express concern about time here (when we have twice as much as we did there), when you didn't maximize your use of it there, seems off.

This entire response seems measuredly cool(or to use Sparky's word in #99 "blah").  You seem studiously unconcerned.  You feel comfortable ending your quote of me with my bolded FoS of you, but open with a humorous comment about Robz that deflects my notice of you not reading the rules back onto Robz.

@Sparky: tell me more about your experience with scum-Grujah

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Out for about an hour.

[Eevee]

Building elaborate cases out of virtually nothing is a trait I'd attribute mostly to scum-SfS. He is the guy I'm most suspicious at the moment.

[Captain_Frisk]

So do we have positions for everyone on the mason claiming issue?

For:
RobZ
Frisk

Against:
Eevee

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm hoping that someone else can do the work while I try to restore some databases.

[Jimmmmm]

So do we have positions for everyone on the mason claiming issue?

For:
RobZ
Frisk

Against:
Eevee

I think that they should claim only to save themselves, in the hope that we lynch scum and still have two "ICs" in day 2.

[Eevee]

My position is "IC's should decide themselves, I don't know".

[Jimmmmm]

My position is "IC's should decide themselves, I don't know".

Well yeah, there's that. I think regardless of what we say, they will decide between them what they think their best option is.

[Grujah]

I'm against claiming, as usual.

[Grujah]

Now that I read it again, SFS seems to have went out and FoSed people while completely ignoring the question at hand himself. (IC claiming)

Thoughts?

[Captain_Frisk]

I originally thought that having 1 of the masons die due to vengekill be a bad idea, but further reflection indicates that my concerns were unwarranted.

[Jimmmmm]

Now that I read it again, SFS seems to have went out and FoSed people while completely ignoring the question at hand himself. (IC claiming)

Thoughts?

I don't think the issue is THAT important. I think it's something we should mention, and give some opinions on, but really it's not up to us all to decide what to do, it's up to the Masons. I think by now they're well enough informed.

Was there something in particular about his FOSing you found suspicious?

[Jimmmmm]

I originally thought that having 1 of the masons die due to vengekill be a bad idea, but further reflection indicates that my concerns were unwarranted.

That seems unhelpful. Care to expand?

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

So do we have positions for everyone on the mason claiming issue?

For:
RobZ
Frisk

Against:
Eevee

Undecided.  Can the more experienced players give me more info on how to balance the added worth of hidden Masons going into day 2, versus the potential added effectiveness of D1 scumhunting, but an almost guaranteed loss of one of the pair (and the value of the attached daychat) if the D1 scumhunting is maximally effective?

I'm not avoiding a decision, and am leaning claim, but all I've heard is the 'here is what happens if we do, here is what happens if we don't'.  There's been no real meat to the discussion of the relative merits of those sets of outcomes.

[Captain_Frisk]

I originally thought that having 1 of the masons die due to vengekill be a bad idea, but further reflection indicates that my concerns were unwarranted.

That seems unhelpful. Care to expand?

I don't think I'm going to. 

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

Now that I read it again, SFS seems to have went out and FoSed people while completely ignoring the question at hand himself. (IC claiming)

Thoughts?

My thought are that the words "completely ignoring" are a gross misrepresentation:

I'm caught up to 103.  This is my first game with Masons, so I don't really have an opinion on what is best.  I see the advantages and disadvantages to both sides.
-snip

It's the very first thing I addressed in my first post (not counting the post that acknowledged the game starting). 

I'm gonna like this game.