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[shraeye]

Ok so let me rehash my Galz case that shraeye incorrectly attributed to being lurky.


Day 2 Galz had all of one post up until I called him a lurker, at which point he showed up and posted abunch before disappearing again (that said we all disappeared for the weekend so I'll shrug that off)

Day 1 he was one of the 4 that got our cop lynched. This consists of Grujah, Voltgloss, Galzria and Eevee. Without these 4 the lynch wouldn't have happened.

Looking at only those 4 we have the knowledge that Voltgloss is town. Grujah (you) have been relatively townie today so I don't really feel like the lynch would properly be directed at you, this doesn't mean I have a town read on you, I still have you high up on my scum list (#3) I just don't find you as good a lynch as Eevee/Galz

I still don't get your insistence about what happened Day2.  This is the "lurker" bit I was talking about.  I don't think Galz was ever lurking, you just saw he hadn't posted in a day, called him out, and then got suspicious when he started posting.  It still sounds to me like somebody who was busy one day, and then not busy after that.
The deal with him lynching the cop is reason for suspicion.  I don't have a townread on him, but Galz is far from my scummiest read.

[Galzria]

Well, let me help you to another town lynch then Insomniac. Vote: Galzria.

That's L-1. Someone feel free to hammer.

[Insomniac]

Well, let me help you to another town lynch then Insomniac. Vote: Galzria.

That's L-1. Someone feel free to hammer.

...Umm Unvote

We aren't just doing that because I think we should people have 'hammered' ashersky and if he is town we have a flip to go on.


@shraeye also his defenses have felt scummy.

[shraeye]

Galz perhaps pushed the lynch harder after he saw it was a roleclaim but after he pushed it he completely disappeared from the conversation even though he was online the entire time the deadline creeped up. He gave Grujah town credit where I don't think any was deserved however others disagree here, and when I tried to get myself lynched in place of the cop he also gave me town credit which probably didn't help me trying to get myself lynched.

This is a good summary of the only bit I find scummy about Galzria.  I do recall now that he was the person who pointed out Robz made a "different claim before" and pushed super hard for "LYNCH ALL LIARS!"  Even though we had talked about town PRs being super careful not to claim needlessly.  Robz tried to follow our advice, and then changed his mind.  That's not something I want to policy-lynch over.  The fact that there was no counterclaim, yet you were pushing really hard to lynch does come off as terrible.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well, let me help you to another town lynch then Insomniac. Vote: Galzria.

That's L-1. Someone feel free to hammer.

Morgrim, is that you?

[Insomniac]

@shraeye he claimed PR, if we had let him live then either

a) Mafia NK'd him -- problem solved
b) He had to explicit claim day 2, if he's counter claimed we have a 1-1 or 2-1 scenario which is awesome for town both ways. And if it was 1-1 town is laughing because we ALSO have a cop read on another scum or a confirmed town.

[Galzria]

Galz perhaps pushed the lynch harder after he saw it was a roleclaim but after he pushed it he completely disappeared from the conversation even though he was online the entire time the deadline creeped up. He gave Grujah town credit where I don't think any was deserved however others disagree here, and when I tried to get myself lynched in place of the cop he also gave me town credit which probably didn't help me trying to get myself lynched.

This is a good summary of the only bit I find scummy about Galzria.  I do recall now that he was the person who pointed out Robz made a "different claim before" and pushed super hard for "LYNCH ALL LIARS!"  Even though we had talked about town PRs being super careful not to claim needlessly.  Robz tried to follow our advice, and then changed his mind.  That's not something I want to policy-lynch over.  The fact that there was no counterclaim, yet you were pushing really hard to lynch does come off as terrible.

/shrug

Whatever. I've explained myself. If you don't want to listen that's your problem and you can enjoy another town flip when you lynch me.

[Grujah]

Well, let me help you to another town lynch then Insomniac. Vote: Galzria.

That's L-1. Someone feel free to hammer.

WTH with this game and selfvoting... argh.

Close to voting for you for trying this, seems like a scumbluff. I did consider you town, but Ins's lurk-accusations have merrits, and at least that post sounds honest. Maybe we can agree on ash daykill and galz daylynch.

[shraeye]

regarding Eevee, there is a lot I don't like.

Eevee has been acting differently this game than normal and hammered the cop after hedging for the entire lynch deadline. He hasn't given me any reason to change this and has in fact appealed to emotions to get people to unvote as opposed to logic.

His hammer of a claimed cop was ridiculous.  He hasn't really defended himself with logic and has used emotional appeals, which sounded scummy to me.  This is another reason I have town-leanings on Galzria, because of Eevee's willingness to lynch him.

Ins is still a semi-townread for me. Grujah is a BIG one. Still like my galZ vote!

Also, Eevee ducked this question from me

Also, the case on Archetype is not good in my opinion, and I have zero suspicion of him.  Where does your suspicion come from, Eevee?

I'm willing to vote: eevee.  I still am ok with the ashersky lynch, I just want us to find possible alternatives so that we could allow day-vig to hit ashersky.

[shraeye]

@shraeye he claimed PR, if we had let him live then either

a) Mafia NK'd him -- problem solved
b) He had to explicit claim day 2, if he's counter claimed we have a 1-1 or 2-1 scenario which is awesome for town both ways. And if it was 1-1 town is laughing because we ALSO have a cop read on another scum or a confirmed town.

I don't entirely understand what you mean by this.  Are you saying it was bad for Robz to explicitly claim cop?  I agree.  Are you saying it was bad for us to lynch a claimed PR on Day1? I agree.  It feels like you're trying to correct a misconception I'm having, but I'm not clear what that could be.

[Cuzz]

Hmm, I had a townish read on Galz that is rapidly disintegrating with each new post.

[Insomniac]

Robz888 (7): ashersky, Galzria, Voltgloss, jotheonah, Grujah, Captain_Frisk, Eevee

Ok so here is the lynch of Robz.

Ash - First on, not a scummy position traditionally as your starting a wagon with no one else on it, that doesn't mean he didn't do it and just wasn't super successful, however he pretty much stayed on since RVS (I think I haven't checked but I think thats the case on him?)

Galz - See my previous posts for this case.

Volt - Confirmed Town

jotheonah - has been lurkier than normal claimed new job, claimed new job hadn't started till this week, somewhat scummy

Grujah - See above posts for case on Grujah

Captian_Frisk - I don't like that he lynched Robz but I have a town read on Friskies this game.

Eevee - Herp derp hammer with hedges see my above posts for the actual case..




So looking at that 7 (6 because Volt is town). We can pretty much assume at least one scum would have lynched Robz, probably 2. Whom do you think is scum from it.




Additional comment on Galzria - as scum he likes to shoot people in the same group as him (Volt was in the same group as him) because it gives him WIFOM opportunities. Additionally Volt/Robz/Jo probably can read Galz the best due to the large number of games played with him and Volt died. Volt seems like a best of both worlds NK for Galz.

[Insomniac]

@shraeye he claimed PR, if we had let him live then either

a) Mafia NK'd him -- problem solved
b) He had to explicit claim day 2, if he's counter claimed we have a 1-1 or 2-1 scenario which is awesome for town both ways. And if it was 1-1 town is laughing because we ALSO have a cop read on another scum or a confirmed town.

I don't entirely understand what you mean by this.  Are you saying it was bad for Robz to explicitly claim cop?  I agree.  Are you saying it was bad for us to lynch a claimed PR on Day1? I agree.  It feels like you're trying to correct a misconception I'm having, but I'm not clear what that could be.

Robz did NOT claim cop, he claimed GENERIC POWER ROLE.  So we wouldn't have a real claim chance for counterclaims unless he lived to day 2

[Galzria]

And yet here's another magical WIFOM case for you Insomniac:

I'm scum who planned on killing Volt and using WIFOM to claim "I wouldn't kill in my own grouping"! BUT, KNOWING you would think I would say that, I choose to NOT make that argument at all!

...

Or, you know, I could simply just be town who had nothing to do with NK's whatsoever, so haven't made any cases regarding them because they're irrelevant to me.

[Insomniac]

And yet here's another magical WIFOM case for you Insomniac:

I'm scum who planned on killing Volt and using WIFOM to claim "I wouldn't kill in my own grouping"! BUT, KNOWING you would think I would say that, I choose to NOT make that argument at all!

...

Or, you know, I could simply just be town who had nothing to do with NK's whatsoever, so haven't made any cases regarding them because they're irrelevant to me.

I agree you absolutely could be town, you're my number 1 scumread this game and I NORMALLY read you as town so it's weird to have a scum read on you. I just can't get behind how you've defended yourself this game. Would you mind giving a rundown of your feelings on ALL other players, if you're town and lynched/killed then it'll be useful tomorrow.

[shraeye]

@shraeye he claimed PR, if we had let him live then either

a) Mafia NK'd him -- problem solved
b) He had to explicit claim day 2, if he's counter claimed we have a 1-1 or 2-1 scenario which is awesome for town both ways. And if it was 1-1 town is laughing because we ALSO have a cop read on another scum or a confirmed town.

I don't entirely understand what you mean by this.  Are you saying it was bad for Robz to explicitly claim cop?  I agree.  Are you saying it was bad for us to lynch a claimed PR on Day1? I agree.  It feels like you're trying to correct a misconception I'm having, but I'm not clear what that could be.

Robz did NOT claim cop, he claimed GENERIC POWER ROLE.  So we wouldn't have a real claim chance for counterclaims unless he lived to day 2

Ah, thanks I did misrecall that.  I remember now.

[Galzria]

And yet here's another magical WIFOM case for you Insomniac:

I'm scum who planned on killing Volt and using WIFOM to claim "I wouldn't kill in my own grouping"! BUT, KNOWING you would think I would say that, I choose to NOT make that argument at all!

...

Or, you know, I could simply just be town who had nothing to do with NK's whatsoever, so haven't made any cases regarding them because they're irrelevant to me.

I agree you absolutely could be town, you're my number 1 scumread this game and I NORMALLY read you as town so it's weird to have a scum read on you. I just can't get behind how you've defended yourself this game. Would you mind giving a rundown of your feelings on ALL other players, if you're town and lynched/killed then it'll be useful tomorrow.

I've already said what I wanted to. It's all there in my super-lurking posts today. You know the ones - the ones I didn't make until you called me out for only posting once during the first real life day of Day 2.

[shraeye]

Robz888 (7): ashersky, Galzria, Voltgloss, jotheonah, Grujah, Captain_Frisk, Eevee

So looking at that 7 (6 because Volt is town). We can pretty much assume at least one scum would have lynched Robz, probably 2. Whom do you think is scum from it.

ashersky--i find scummy, case stated before.  would lynch

galzria--his extra push to lynch robz after he claimed PR was odd.  His lurking day 2 was not an issue.  A very neutral read with minor suspicion cancelling out minor town-reads.

joth--don't have much of a feel for him in this game.  Normally that jumps out to me as something suspicious, but for somereason, I have a pleasant town-feel from him, though I'd be really hardpressed to quote the posts that make me feel this way.

grujah--fairly neutral on this dude too.

Frisk--Frisk I am suspicious of.  His late-comer status to the wagon is suspicious (I don't recall if he voted before/after the claim shenanigans, but if it was after I would increase this factor in his overall read).  He did try to send some suspicion at Archetype after I thought Arch made a reasonable case on Frisk.  Frisk's defense didn't sound bad as well though, outside of the suspicion he gave Archetype simply for making it.  But I'm not feeling the contributions from him, and am in general getting a slight scum-read.

eevee--eevee is very suspicious, as I'vepointed out before.

[Galzria]

Here ya go Insomniac, since going back 5 pages might be too difficult and all, I've pulled the quotes for you:

Eh, I hate being wrong, but there you have it. I stand by my vote 100% - Had Robz actually given us an opportunity to believe his claim was anything more than a last minute ploy at desperation 1 hour before the deadline to sow confusion, then it would've made sense to back down. As it was, it looked like an attempt to throw the town into disarray, causing no lynch or the lynch of a townie.

I still think Grujah is town. I still think insomniac is town. I think we need to refocus on some of the people who weren't around for the deadline and see where they stand now. I'm fairly suspicious of Eevee, for the reasons stated before the lynch. Everybody else I'm mostly neutral on.

Insomniac, as hard as it might be for you to accept, I am NOT scum. I'm as capable as anybody of making bad reads (See: Volt, M-XIV), and in the case of Robz, c'est la vie. Had he actually claimed PR (didn't even have to say which) back when there was still any semblance of reasonability to the amount of time that was left in the day, he would've been much more credible. But he didn't, and I felt forced to disbelieve his claim. I was wrong. There's not much else I can say about that.

Being wrong on D1 doesn't ruin a game for town. It sucks (omgobvscumslip!), but it's not the end of the world. Focusing in and tunneling like you're doing now on a SECOND bad read would put us in a deep, deep hole.

Even IF you want to assume (wrongly) that I'm scum, then I would ask you to find my "partners" first, because anybody you look to that isn't named "Galzria" will have an infinitely higher chance of being scum than someone who IS named "Galzria".

From my perspective: I think that you're town. I'm almost certain that Grujah is. Eevee is my biggest scum read. If I were to make a list from townie to scummy, it would be as follows:

Galzria
Grujah
Insomniac
Joth
Cuzz
Yuma
Shraeye
Frisk
Ashersky
Archetype
Eevee

Vote: Eevee

I would be willing to lynch any of the top 3. I would lynch but not like the middle 4. I don't like at all lynches on the bottom 3. And I know for a fact that I'm town.

I haven't been posting a lot ANYWHERE Insomniac, this game isn't special. What I called Grujah on in the other game was being FORUM active, but THREAD lurking. The fact is:

A) I'm busy as hell.
B) When I am online, I'm checking 1001 different things.
C) Yeah, I'm a bit put off by Robz' flip, and really don't feel like coming out playing "follow the leader" after the events of D1.

Now, like I said, I simply will not apologize for lynching Robz. It sucked hardcore, but I don't feel unjustified given the way three last ~6 hours went down. I was freaking wrong, but I can't change that. Maybe you think it was stupid of me, and maybe you're right. But I would absolutely play it exactly the same if events unfolded in the same way in a future game.

I think you're absolutely right that the wagon wasn't driven by all town. I've made it clear my top scum read is Eevee. It's where my vote is, and I'm not honestly sure I like much of anyone nearly as much. I absolutely promise you however that lynching me will result in a second town lynch. So I would advise you to have a DAMN good plan going into D3 after I flip and reveal. My lynch is one that very, very easily could be driven by town, so a wagon against me wouldn't be terribly informative. Put another way, if I'm lynched, I would  (A) Lynch Eevee, and (B) look at the cross-section of those NOT on my wagon against those ON Robz.

And yes, I realize that your belief that I'm scum will taint anything I say NOW - but once I flip, I want you to have something concrete to go back and review. To you especially Insomniac - if I'm lynched, read what I've said carefully, and think how best to apply it.

Other than all that however, I don't know how much more there is for me to say. I put myself and town in a bad way. But I can't change that, nor do I have the same desire to push like hell today. So... Yeah.

[Insomniac]

@Galz. It's not too hard to go back 5 pages. It's that in 5 pages your reads might change its not like there hasn't been any real conversation in these 5 pages. I don't think I've ever seen you be hostile under pressure. Not sure what to make of it

[Insomniac]

Vote: Eevee

Galz is hostile which I've never seen from a town Galz under pressure before but I could see it as he doesn't like the lurk point on him. I would have voted him without the lurk point but it was something curious to me.

Also Eevee was in here and didn't say anything. There is definetly things to talk about

[Cuzz]

Does anyone not voting for ashersky want to comment on my case here?

This reads really really suspicious to me but I'm not sure if anyone noticed it. Am I crazy or is this something? I think ashersky chickenposted that I was misinterpreting him, but of course that's the only way for scum to defend a perceived scumslip.

[Galzria]

Actually Insomniac, I was just as hostile in M-III, M-IV, and M-VI, although I'll admit you got NK'd N1 in most of those,  so you probably wouldn't have noticed.

More to logic though: Look, I've rolled scum twice so far on these forums in normal games. Both of those games I took MVP and led my team to victory. How? By playing a behind-the-scenes manipulative scum. I cared about my image and how people perceived me in the game.

As town, I don't give a ****. I play my game, make my reads, and push my cases. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Yeah, it's frustrating as hell to be seen as scummy for pushing bad cases because I KNOW that if I'm lynched in turn for it, town is even worse off than they were, being then down 2 lynches. Honestly, what it comes down to, is that for me to be scum, you'd have to believe I played a piss poor game, drawing that amount of attention to myself D1. And if my record means ANYTHING at all, you should know that I'm not that bloody terrible. Town Galz makes mistakes. Scum Galz is flawless.

[Cuzz]

Actually Insomniac, I was just as hostile in M-III, M-IV, and M-VI, although I'll admit you got NK'd N1 in most of those,  so you probably wouldn't have noticed.

More to logic though: Look, I've rolled scum twice so far on these forums in normal games. Both of those games I took MVP and led my team to victory. How? By playing a behind-the-scenes manipulative scum. I cared about my image and how people perceived me in the game.

As town, I don't give a ****. I play my game, make my reads, and push my cases. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Yeah, it's frustrating as hell to be seen as scummy for pushing bad cases because I KNOW that if I'm lynched in turn for it, town is even worse off than they were, being then down 2 lynches. Honestly, what it comes down to, is that for me to be scum, you'd have to believe I played a piss poor game, drawing that amount of attention to myself D1. And if my record means ANYTHING at all, you should know that I'm not that bloody terrible. Town Galz makes mistakes. Scum Galz is flawless.

Man I hate hate hate defenses like this. "I play like X as scum. I'm currently playing like Y. Ergo I cannot be scum." If you have what you feel is an established scum meta, why would scum-you continue to play that way? Scum-you probably wouldn't; he would probably shake up his style a bit and try to throw people off.

I'm not trying to use that "meta is useless because anyone can completely change their style at any time" argument. That's not what I believe. But the argument that someone under suspicion cannot be scum because they act differently as scum is worthless when that argument comes from that person himself.

[Galzria]

Actually Insomniac, I was just as hostile in M-III, M-IV, and M-VI, although I'll admit you got NK'd N1 in most of those,  so you probably wouldn't have noticed.

More to logic though: Look, I've rolled scum twice so far on these forums in normal games. Both of those games I took MVP and led my team to victory. How? By playing a behind-the-scenes manipulative scum. I cared about my image and how people perceived me in the game.

As town, I don't give a ****. I play my game, make my reads, and push my cases. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. Yeah, it's frustrating as hell to be seen as scummy for pushing bad cases because I KNOW that if I'm lynched in turn for it, town is even worse off than they were, being then down 2 lynches. Honestly, what it comes down to, is that for me to be scum, you'd have to believe I played a piss poor game, drawing that amount of attention to myself D1. And if my record means ANYTHING at all, you should know that I'm not that bloody terrible. Town Galz makes mistakes. Scum Galz is flawless.

Man I hate hate hate defenses like this. "I play like X as scum. I'm currently playing like Y. Ergo I cannot be scum." If you have what you feel is an established scum meta, why would scum-you continue to play that way? Scum-you probably wouldn't; he would probably shake up his style a bit and try to throw people off.

I'm not trying to use that "meta is useless because anyone can completely change their style at any time" argument. That's not what I believe. But the argument that someone under suspicion cannot be scum because they act differently as scum is worthless when that argument comes from that person himself.

That's nice that you think that and all, but you're wrong.