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Author Topic: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils  (Read 177882 times)

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clb

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #175 on: August 09, 2012, 03:41:21 pm »
0

Develop!  Now the best $3, thanks to Dark Ages!

I think I might put Develop as #2 (also depending on yet-to-be-revealed cards), but the card that keeps standing out in my mind with many of these strategies is Watchtower. It has become a must-buy with so many of the self-trashing benefits. But, yes, Develop looks pretty nice with a lot of these new cards.
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werothegreat

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #176 on: August 09, 2012, 03:43:40 pm »
+1

Develop!  Now the best $3, thanks to Dark Ages!

I think I might put Develop as #2 (also depending on yet-to-be-revealed cards), but the card that keeps standing out in my mind with many of these strategies is Watchtower. It has become a must-buy with so many of the self-trashing benefits. But, yes, Develop looks pretty nice with a lot of these new cards.

Well, Watchtower was always good.  Develop went from "Oooh cool 2 cards for 1!" to "Ew it topdecks them and it's slow and trashers are supposed to make your deck SMALLER" to "Hmm this combos well with Dark Ages..."

Maybe Develop should have come out in this set...
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #177 on: August 09, 2012, 04:11:48 pm »
0

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #178 on: August 09, 2012, 04:23:21 pm »
0

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #179 on: August 09, 2012, 04:24:17 pm »
+4

I think we are getting more and more of the big picture in Dark Ages.

We have to remember that Donald created most if not all cards before even the base set came out.
And he had to fiddle a lot with the sets and expansions, placing cards from later expansions in earlier expansions and vice versa and even coming out with Alchemy way ahead of schedule because the publisher wanted an extra small expansion.

Can you imagine Alchemy coming out at this stage? Maybe it would receive more credit than it has had when it came out so early. A Potion? Who wants that!? What a weird expansion! With Dark Ages we see that nothing is impossible and nothing is off limits. Messing with the trash, $1 cards, extra supply piles, he's throwing everything but the kitchen sink at us.

After the final epxansion (Guilds???) has come out, we will finally be able to look at the Dominion landscape as a whole and understand what he wanted to achieve with every card. Scout may finally take its rightful place as the top $4 card and Develop is already getting an extra life with Dark Ages.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #180 on: August 09, 2012, 04:31:10 pm »
0

Scout may finally take its rightful place as the top $4 card

+1 for the post as a whole, but especially this.

The very last card previewed for Guilds (after we have seen every Dominion card ever to exist except just this last one) is going to be:

Scoutmaster
$0 - Action
Reveal your hand. If you reveal a Scout, gain all remaining Victory Cards.

Setup: If Scout is not in the Kingdom, add it to the Kingdom.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #181 on: August 09, 2012, 04:33:56 pm »
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Oh, and I think Pillage/Graverobber is going to be a pretty brutal combo in an engine. Endless targeted discard attacks which also give you money!
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #182 on: August 09, 2012, 04:39:12 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #183 on: August 09, 2012, 04:44:03 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 04:47:21 pm by GendoIkari »
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CaptainNevada

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #184 on: August 09, 2012, 04:46:47 pm »
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That's if you let your deck clog up with Rats.  If you draw a hand with 5 rats, you may as well resign.

That is part of the trick with Rats.  It may be very very easy to cross the tipping point where Rats benefit your deck to where they drag it down.  That's why Rats is almost certainly going to be better with another trasher, and shine with a good trash for benefit card. 

Rats is certainly at home in Dark Ages where the theme is trashing.  It trashes well and provides a benefit for trashing itself.  Plus it works best with other trashing cards, particularly trash for benefit. 

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #185 on: August 09, 2012, 04:47:19 pm »
0

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.
People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

I know they can choose not to play them. That's why I brought up throne room and golem. Anyway I wasn't suggesting that you would buy rats (actually buy one, gain the rest) just to throw them at your opponent. I was saying that, depending on the situation, pawning them off on another player could be a good way to get rid of them once they've outlived their usefulness.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #186 on: August 09, 2012, 04:52:02 pm »
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It may depend on who got the short end of the Masquerades.  If your opponent did, then sending him a Rat might help him clear the junk you sent to him.  Of course, if you are preying on a weak player passing him a Rat to "help" with clearing out the junk could give him an entirely different problem by which time you've won the game.

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.
People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

I know they can choose not to play them. That's why I brought up throne room and golem. Anyway I wasn't suggesting that you would buy rats (actually buy one, gain the rest) just to throw them at your opponent. I was saying that, depending on the situation, pawning them off on another player could be a good way to get rid of them once they've outlived their usefulness.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #187 on: August 09, 2012, 04:52:53 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #188 on: August 09, 2012, 04:54:13 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

Hey now, Scout+Estate+Vault/secret chamber may just be the best combo out there. </sarcasm>
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #189 on: August 09, 2012, 04:54:37 pm »
+2

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2012, 04:56:06 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

I don't know; in a deck without any TFB, buying a rats really seems exactly like buying an Estate. Playing it adds 0 value to your deck, and quite often you would rather just hold in it your hand than play it.
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #191 on: August 09, 2012, 04:57:03 pm »
+2

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

Hey now, Scout+Tunnel+Vault/secret chamber may just be the best combo out there. </not sarcasm>

FTFY
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2012, 04:57:35 pm »
0

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...
Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

I think his point is that there is no reason to buy rats if there is no other trasher on the table.  Rats are even worse than an estate in that case -- you don't get the 1 VP!

(I still don't consider rats a real trasher because it replaces your trash with rats, which are basically trash unless some other card can trash them.)
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2012, 04:57:51 pm »
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Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.

This is what I said in prediction thread as well:
"  GIANT TRAP. It sounds fun and cool, but unless you can really get read of them fast and even get something good out of it they dominate your deck and you lose. Their only use will be free, 4$ food for your trash-for-benefits, like Savager, Upgrade, Bishop and the likes."


Well, maybe not only, but main. (Watchtower seems ok too).
Bishop is great, Forge is great, Upgrade is great (non-terminal), Remodel is good, and so are salvager and remake. Aprentice is ok, so is Develop and Expand, and Farmland is.. usable, so is Transmute. Did I miss any?

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engineer

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2012, 04:59:44 pm »
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Bishop is great, Forge is great, Upgrade is great (non-terminal), Remodel is good, and so are salvager and remake. Aprentice is ok, so is Develop and Expand, and Farmland is.. usable, so is Transmute. Did I miss any?

Remake!  Gain 2 $5 cards, and get +2 cards!
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GendoIkari

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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #195 on: August 09, 2012, 05:00:49 pm »
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the fact that rats costs 4 makes me think that they discovered that rats/rats was too strong an opening... but I have a hard time seeing how that would be a good opening.

Man I'm an idiot... I've realized now that Rats cost $4 instead of $3 because they are a much better card at $4! If they were $3, you would want them a lot less often than you will want them at $4 (because of TFB).
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #196 on: August 09, 2012, 05:02:41 pm »
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It just occurred to me that the right comparison point for Rats might be Transmute. They've both got this "trash a card, gain another copy of the trasher" thing going on, but Rats has the advantage of being nonterminal, and Transmute has the advantage of being able to give you something other than just more Transmutes. (But since the most plentiful thing you usually want to trash is Copper, it's a useful comparison, I think.) Rats probably comes out looking better because being non-terminal is really useful, and because Transmute's awkward potion cost makes it poor fodder for other trashers, which seems like Rats' big selling point. But I think Transmute's the most similar existing card to Rats, so that might be a handy comparison point for how to think about it.

Transmute : Rats :: Remodel : Upgrade?
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #197 on: August 09, 2012, 05:04:05 pm »
+1

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 


How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #198 on: August 09, 2012, 05:05:29 pm »
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It just occurred to me that the right comparison point for Rats might be Transmute. They've both got this "trash a card, gain another copy of the trasher" thing going on, but Rats has the advantage of being nonterminal, and Transmute has the advantage of being able to give you something other than just more Transmutes. (But since the most plentiful thing you usually want to trash is Copper, it's a useful comparison, I think.) Rats probably comes out looking better because being non-terminal is really useful, and because Transmute's awkward potion cost makes it poor fodder for other trashers, which seems like Rats' big selling point. But I think Transmute's the most similar existing card to Rats, so that might be a handy comparison point for how to think about it.

Transmute : Rats :: Remodel : Upgrade?

Ill run out the rats pile with rats, the transmute pile with my buys (eating all non potions with rats), and then Ill transmute all my rats to run out the rats, transmute and duchy piles! </bad dominion player>
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Re: Dark Ages Preview #4: Rats, Pillage, Spoils
« Reply #199 on: August 09, 2012, 05:12:58 pm »
+2

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 


Technically, if you use the reaction element of Trader, you don't trash the incoming rat -- you just never gain it, gaining a silver instead.  So you don't get the +1 card for that.
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