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[Donald X.]

Rats is my favorite Dominion card. Now you know that about me. You give your kingdom a rat problem. Sure, you get rid of some garbage, but now you've got Rats, and they don't get rid of themselves. Isn't the solution worse than the problem? Plus, let's not forget, there are twenty Rats, rather than the usual ten. That's right: today, you didn't get the whole story just looking at the pictures. Twenty Rats, even in two-player games. Just chewing your deck to pieces. Well secretly there's probably something you can do with them. Looking over the cards spoiled so far, they seem to be a combo with most of them, what's up with that.

Pillage is a more conventional attack, in that it attacks your opponents. It's a one-shot. There haven't been very many but this is one. You make everyone else discard their best card, which is bound to hurt them, and you get two Spoils, which sounds good at least. It's a pretty rude attack, but at least it only happens once per copy bought, barring Graverobbers or something. The thing being Pillaged in the art is of course a Village. I remember when that was a peaceful place, with a guy on a horse.

Spoils is a one-shot Gold. That makes Pillage a one-shot that gets you two one-shots. You can't buy Spoils; there are three different ways to get it, and the other two get you them repeatedly. A one-shot Gold is pretty good if you were only drawing it once anyway, or if you didn't really want Gold in the long run, and if those things aren't true well hey it's still something.

There are 15 Spoils. I have seen them run out (temporarily of course) but it's rare. A little math reveals that there must therefore be only one victory card pile. Dark Ages has 35 kingdom cards, adding up to 352 cards, and 35 randomizers; 50 Ruins; 10 extra Rats; 10 Madmen and 10 of some other card you upgrade into; 15 Spoils; and 18 Shelters.

[Wolphmaniac]

first!

User was warned for this post

[GendoIkari]

Ok, just yesterday in my "rules" thread, someone pointed out that we've never seen a targeted discard. I think that Donald reads through our posts talking about what cards would never happen, and then makes up new cards on the spot to prove us wrong.

[Kuildeous]

Spoils and Madmen are setting up a trend of one-shot cards. I can't say I dislike that. Sounds like fun.

Rats looks to be like a huge trap, but if you have trashers, they could be astounding.

[Grujah]

And he just broke another rule - there must be 10 cards in a non-victory pile 

[Wolphmaniac]

Rats is the perfect name for the card.  They just multiply and eat stuff.  They might be good early on to tear through copper and estates, but they could get out of hand quickly.  Seems like it should be a $2 or $3 card, but we'll have to see I guess.  There better be some other trashing available or your deck could turn into all rats pretty easily!

Think Watchtower and Trader with Rats to either trash or Silver-ize the incoming rats.

[Schneau]

I was just thinking this morning that there would probably be another cantrip trasher in this expansion! It seemed like Dominion needed one besides Upgrade. Oh Rats!

I also sort of called the strong one-shot attack card. I thought it would be a curser, but hey, I like this one too!

[Grujah]

Good thing about Rats is that they cost 4 so they can be remodeled into something useful when they become a pest.

@Wolph - yeah, really great name for the card. It's like introducing a new specie to a foreign biosystem - it gets rid of the problem, but become the problem. 

[Kuildeous]

I pity the fool who reveals a hand of all Rats. That means that if he plays them, he will trash N cards, where N is the number of Rats in his hand. Unless you're certain that your next N cards are Curses, Coppers, and Estates, you are better off throwing your hand away. Looks like it could become a very dangerous card. Not newbie-friendly at all!

[werothegreat]

Based on the tidbits at the end, I think we can safely say that everyone starts with 3 Shelters in their deck when they're called for, instead of Estates, and that Donald X (contrary to what I believe he said about a month ago) has provided enough Ruins and Shelters to support a 6-player game.

[Davio]

Only one Victory card (Feodum) makes me sad.

I LOVE alt VPs!

[Ferrouswheel]

If there are 18 shelters, then that's 1 each for a 6 player game (assuming that you want to leave 12 for the normal pile).

Also, I'm thinking Rats is going to be a trap card without another trasher present, but that it will be useful with another trasher.

[Turambar]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

[jsh357]

Wow, so Feodum was the lone victory card of the set.   Rats is a great concept, though I imagine it doesn't pan out so well in a generic Dominion game we're used to.  Then again, I could be wrong about that for sure.  My wife and I have a custom attack we use sometimes called 'Pillager,' but this one is better than ours.  In fact, yeesh, it seems pretty brutal indeed.  Even at a single shot, it may rival some of the best attacks.

[timchen]

Rats!

Well... very very interesting thing that Donald said this is his favorite card.

I cannot really think about this card in the new setting. Let me ask the "conventional" question: is this card any good with 9 other kingdom cards that are from hinterlands or before?

[Grujah]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

No, once you play a treasure it gives you money, doesn't matter if it is picked up later.

Like, if you buy mandarin and your treasures goes back on deck, you still have all the money it provided if you have more buys.

[GendoIkari]

If there are 18 shelters, then that's 1 each for a 6 player game (assuming that you want to leave 12 for the normal pile).

Also, I'm thinking Rats is going to be a trap card without another trasher present, but that it will be useful with another trasher.

pretty sure there won't be a pile of 12. they replace starting estates, that's it.

[Grujah]

Wow, so Feodum was the lone victory card of the set.   Rats is a great concept, though I imagine it doesn't pan out so well in a generic Dominion game we're used to.  Then again, I could be wrong about that for sure.  My wife and I have a custom attack we use sometimes called 'Pillager,' but this one is better than ours.  In fact, yeesh, it seems pretty brutal indeed.  Even at a single shot, it may rival some of the best attacks.

Just though of something.

These rats are going to actually be good with these trash for benefit cards. Like, Cultists, Squire and so on.
Eat Squires get Cultists, give Ruins, Eat Cultists, get Cards, eat cards!

[Vampyroteuthis Infernalis]

Rats = Tribbles. Now we really need an official Star Trek themed version.
Catan did it.

[jsh357]

Wow, so Feodum was the lone victory card of the set.   Rats is a great concept, though I imagine it doesn't pan out so well in a generic Dominion game we're used to.  Then again, I could be wrong about that for sure.  My wife and I have a custom attack we use sometimes called 'Pillager,' but this one is better than ours.  In fact, yeesh, it seems pretty brutal indeed.  Even at a single shot, it may rival some of the best attacks.

Just though of something.

These rats are going to actually be good with these trash for benefit cards. Like, Cultists, Squire and so on.
Eat Squires get Cultists, give Ruins, Eat Cultists, get Cards, eat cards!

Oh, definitely.  In fact, with any other trasher in play they're probably an amazing accelerator.  Remake + Rats just has to rule.  I'd be very wary of playing them in a set with no other trashing, though.  Even if you were just trying to run out the Rats pile, you could always end up with a 4 Rats - Province hand...

[GendoIkari]

the fact that rats costs 4 makes me think that they discovered that rats/rats was too strong an opening... but I have a hard time seeing how that would be a good opening.

[jsh357]

the fact that rats costs 4 makes me think that they discovered that rats/rats was too strong an opening... but I have a hard time seeing how that would be a good opening.

Yeah.  They don't even begin to compare with stuff like Scout. 

Speaking of which, we're all waiting, Robz.

[GendoIkari]

rats + watchtower is awesome!!

[Drab Emordnilap]

I was just thinking this morning that there would probably be another cantrip trasher in this expansion! It seemed like Dominion needed one besides Upgrade. Oh Rats!

Lookout is a cantrip trasher. Well, as much as Upgrade is anyways. They both leave you with an action and a 4 card hand after you play them.

[yudantaiteki]

I just want to say I love the phrase "Or reveal a hand of all rats" though I don't know why.

[Grujah]

Opponent plays Pillage. You reveal a hand of all rats.
Is that a good or a bad thing?

[Wolphmaniac]

Rules question:  The first thing on Rats is +1card, +1 action.  So I do that first before gaining another Rats, yes?  So if the card I draw is my Watchtower, I can then reveal the Watchtower to trash the incoming Rats.  Is that correct?

[mharris717]

I was just thinking this morning that there would probably be another cantrip trasher in this expansion! It seemed like Dominion needed one besides Upgrade. Oh Rats!

Lookout is a cantrip trasher. Well, as much as Upgrade is anyways. They both leave you with an action and a 4 card hand after you play them.

Not really, you don't get to replace a bad card in your hand with a random card.  Your deck velocity is lower with lookout. 

[GendoIkari]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

[Turambar]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

No, once you play a treasure it gives you money, doesn't matter if it is picked up later.

Like, if you buy mandarin and your treasures goes back on deck, you still have all the money it provided if you have more buys.

Well, yeah if you read my entire post you see I agree with you. My point was mainly that it is a bit confusing (especially to noobs) having to remember how many spoils you have played, and it seems more clean to just return in discard phase. Hence the question, is it that important to avoid combo with herbalist and bank? (And potenially other cards I don't think of now).

[jsh357]

Somehow I just realized that Spoils are likely to be a common Pillage target

[yudantaiteki]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

No, once you play a treasure it gives you money, doesn't matter if it is picked up later.

This seems to be one of the most misunderstood rules in the game, probably because it doesn't matter pre-Prosperity (I think?)  Many people get into the habit of thinking that a Silver is "worth 2" rather than the correct rule, which is that Silver gives you +2$ when you play it (which is no different from the +2$ you get from a Militia or whatever).

[GendoIkari]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

No, once you play a treasure it gives you money, doesn't matter if it is picked up later.

Like, if you buy mandarin and your treasures goes back on deck, you still have all the money it provided if you have more buys.

Well, yeah if you read my entire post you see I agree with you. My point was mainly that it is a bit confusing (especially to noobs) having to remember how many spoils you have played, and it seems more clean to just return in discard phase. Hence the question, is it that important to avoid combo with herbalist and bank? (And potenially other cards I don't think of now).

no different than remembering how many mining villages you trashed, or how many pawns you played for +$1.

[AJD]

Ehm, when you play Spoils you have to return it to the supply pile. So I'll play a spoils and 4 coppers, but before buying anything I have to return the Spoils. So that seems to leave me with 4 money to buy with.

Naturally this isn't the correct interpretation, but it seems the obvious one from the wording. Why not say "When you discard this in clean-up phase"? To avoid combo with herbalist and bank?

No, once you play a treasure it gives you money, doesn't matter if it is picked up later.

Like, if you buy mandarin and your treasures goes back on deck, you still have all the money it provided if you have more buys.

Well, yeah if you read my entire post you see I agree with you. My point was mainly that it is a bit confusing (especially to noobs) having to remember how many spoils you have played, and it seems more clean to just return in discard phase. Hence the question, is it that important to avoid combo with herbalist and bank? (And potenially other cards I don't think of now).

no different than remembering how many mining villages you trashed, or how many pawns you played for +$1.

(which are both also kind of annoying....)

[wrathofmine]

So if you have Rats problems... call an Hermit

[Cuzz]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

KC-KC-Council Room-Pillage-Militia. Leave opponent with 3rd--5th best of 8 cards. And gain 6 one-shot golds.

[GendoIkari]

Rats should be called Relentless Rats.

And they should give +x cards, +x actions, where x is the number of Relentless Rats you have played this turn.

[GendoIkari]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

KC-KC-Council Room-Pillage-Militia. Leave opponent with 3rd--5th best of 8 cards. And gain 6 one-shot golds.

4th-6th best, actually!

[KMueller]

Somehow I just realized that Spoils are likely to be a common Pillage target

Other than the fact that they are always on the board together, why would Spoils be more common to discard than gold, bank, powerful attack cards, etc?

[Cuzz]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

KC-KC-Council Room-Pillage-Militia. Leave opponent with 3rd--5th best of 8 cards. And gain 6 one-shot golds.

4th-6th best, actually!

Ah, but of course. It's still early 'round these parts.

[KMueller]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

Are we sure about this interpretation?

[lespeutere]

Rules question:  The first thing on Rats is +1card, +1 action.  So I do that first before gaining another Rats, yes?  So if the card I draw is my Watchtower, I can then reveal the Watchtower to trash the incoming Rats.  Is that correct?

I'd say yes. Meaning that you can draw another card cause you just trashed a rats, right?

[carstimon]

I want to play with rats really badly!  It seems really hard to balance in your deck.  Especially because you want lots of trashing early, but little trashing late... and rats does exactly the opposite.

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

Are we sure about this interpretation?

Yes.

[michaeljb]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

Are we sure about this interpretation?

Yes. It's the same as Throne Rooming a Feast and picking up 2 5-costers.

[GendoIkari]

also, pillage doesn't have "if you do". so you can throne room it! governor for cards, throne room pillage, each opponent discards there best 2 of 6 cards, you get 4 spoils. kc option too, of course.

Are we sure about this interpretation?

I don't see a whole lot of room for question. Look at Feast.

*NINJA'D*

[Donald X.]

Rules question:  The first thing on Rats is +1card, +1 action.  So I do that first before gaining another Rats, yes?  So if the card I draw is my Watchtower, I can then reveal the Watchtower to trash the incoming Rats.  Is that correct?

I'd say yes. Meaning that you can draw another card cause you just trashed a rats, right?

Yes and yes.

Pillage does not say "if you do," the only thing holding Throne etc. in check there is that it only hits opponents with 5+ cards in hand.

[GendoIkari]

Rules question:  The first thing on Rats is +1card, +1 action.  So I do that first before gaining another Rats, yes?  So if the card I draw is my Watchtower, I can then reveal the Watchtower to trash the incoming Rats.  Is that correct?

I'd say yes. Meaning that you can draw another card cause you just trashed a rats, right?

Yes and yes. Thus why Rats + Watchtower is awesome.

*Ninja'd by Donald X; with identical wording!*

[Tombolo]

Rats looks fun, but I'm having trouble thinking of boards where I would WANT to start that domino effect.  Upgrade?  Watchtower?  Bishop?  Apprentice?

Also I gotta say that I really enjoy the tone Donald X. uses for these. 

[Schneau]

I was just thinking this morning that there would probably be another cantrip trasher in this expansion! It seemed like Dominion needed one besides Upgrade. Oh Rats!

Lookout is a cantrip trasher. Well, as much as Upgrade is anyways. They both leave you with an action and a 4 card hand after you play them.

From the Dominion Lingo Dictionary:

Cantrip:  Any card that gives at least +1 Card, +1 Action; it costs no action to spend it and it replaces itself in the hand.  Can technically refer to Villages, but in practice usually refers to cards like Spy.

Lookout doesn't replace itself with +1 Card.

[lespeutere]

Rats looks fun, but I'm having trouble thinking of boards where I would WANT to start that domino effect.  Upgrade?  Watchtower?  Bishop?  Apprentice?

Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion. However, if it's something like chapel, you won't need rats for trashing, right? So I'd add salvager, develop, trader (?)

Rats with gardens is lovely, btw..

[GendoIkari]

Rats with gardens is lovely, btw..

Rats with gardens is a terrible nombo! You don't gain an extra card from playing rats; unless every card in your hand is a rats.

[lespeutere]

Rats with gardens is lovely, btw..

Rats with gardens is a terrible nombo! You don't gain an extra card from playing rats; unless every card in your hand is a rats.

-1 for me

[WanderingWinder]

So, since Robz hasn't posted yet... I feel this urge to ask and answer "But how do these cards combo with scout?"
Well, Rats is easy - they trash all of those ugly treasures and actions, so your scouts will draw all of your delicious victory cards for you.
Pillage, well that lets you get rid of your opponents' scouts from their hands, so at least it's good in the mirror.
And spoils don't sit around clogging your deck up, so once you use them once, they won't interfere with your scouts grabbing that green for you. Also, since you only use them once, they encourage you to buy green right now, so go scout! Better than gold!

[AdamH]

I wonder if having rats around would be useful in a cursing game. Use rats to get curses out of your deck. Sure, they become dead cards in the endgame when you're afraid to play them without a curse to trash, but they're no deader than the curses you had in the first place, and they aren't worth -1VP.

Either that, or I'm totally wrong. Probably that one.

[mnavratil]

Rats maybe is an actual combo with scout. Either draw that estate into hand for prompt rat trashing, or re-arrange your cards to draw that card you want to trash. Okay, maybe a stretch there, but it is scout afterall.

EDIT: Oh, and of course rats love to eat scouts. So there's that.

[Kuildeous]

It seems that Pillage is not an effective counter to Possession.

"I'll just play your hand. Oh, look, a Pillage. I guess I'll choose this Estate to discard. And you may keep Pillage after this hand, but I get two Spoils, thankyouverymuch."

[Ventura Highway]

Pillage-->Spoils is probably NOT a great move on a possession board - since Spoils get returned to the Spoils pile rather than trashed after their one-off use, a possessor could rob you of your Spoils (and get the benefit!) in an Ambassador-esque fashion.

[ashersky]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

[rinkworks]

Rats intrigues me, largely because I don't understand why you'd want it.  You only want it on boards with other trashing, right?  Or eventually you'll have tons of Curse-equivalents in your deck.  But if you have other trashing, why do you want Rats?  Seems like the +1 Card on-trash bonus of Rats isn't really enough.  I'm not saying it isn't, just that it seems like it isn't.  Very definitely looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

[ashersky]

Rats intrigues me, largely because I don't understand why you'd want it.  You only want it on boards with other trashing, right?  Or eventually you'll have tons of Curse-equivalents in your deck.  But if you have other trashing, why do you want Rats?  Seems like the +1 Card on-trash bonus of Rats isn't really enough.  I'm not saying it isn't, just that it seems like it isn't.  Very definitely looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

I might buy it to Ambassador/Masquerade to people.  It's like a 0VP, self-propagating Estate.

New sport: Rats Tennis.

[lespeutere]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

[DG]

Curses seem to have taken a downgrade with the cards revealed so far. I'll suggest forge and rats as the most promising combo, although you still need to careful how you find 7 coins for that forge before the rats eat your deck.

[werothegreat]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!

Rats with gardens is lovely, btw..

Rats with gardens is a terrible nombo! You don't gain an extra card from playing rats; unless every card in your hand is a rats.

The Rats will eat your Gardens.  Nom nom nom.

[Cuzz]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

This is a good question. Certainly you can't gain a Diadem with Mint, but there's only one of those...

[ashersky]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

This is a good question. Certainly you can't gain a Diadem with Mint, but there's only one of those...

While we're at it, could we Mine copper into Spoils?  Mine doesn't mention the supply either...!

[mnavratil]

Didn't we decide that 'Gain' implicitly means 'Gain from the supply' which would mean that Mint/Mine wouldn't work?

[AJD]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

This is a good question. Certainly you can't gain a Diadem with Mint, but there's only one of those...

This came up when we were talking about Madman yesterday. If a card says to gain something, it means from the supply unless otherwise specified; and Mint just says "gain", so if it's not in the supply you can't mint it.

[ashersky]

Possible non-combo: Venture + Spoils.  I imagine there are times you'd want to save that Spoils for later.

[WanderingWinder]

Rats intrigues me, largely because I don't understand why you'd want it.  You only want it on boards with other trashing, right?  Or eventually you'll have tons of Curse-equivalents in your deck.  But if you have other trashing, why do you want Rats?  Seems like the +1 Card on-trash bonus of Rats isn't really enough.  I'm not saying it isn't, just that it seems like it isn't.  Very definitely looking forward to seeing how this plays out.

The only thing that comes to mind is if you have some kind of TFB, a la remodel, salvager, forge, apprentice, expand, graverobber, upgrade, possibly remake, etc., where rats can mow through your deck faster, and then you turn these into something. Though, I guess I say mow through your deck quicker, but on each play of rats, you are just replacing a card with a rats (rather than thinning), and gee, I don't know how good a trade that is.

[werothegreat]

Island/Gardens rush, hiding all your Gardens away on Islands, then just keep Ratting it up.  If you empty the whole pile, each Gardens will be...  2 VP each...  but it seems like a sensible rush.

[WanderingWinder]

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!

Maybe this is another 'joke', but workshop doesn't mention the supply either, and you can't gain followers with it, or a not-in-the-kingdom fishing village, or....

[Kuildeous]

Didn't we decide that 'Gain' implicitly means 'Gain from the supply' which would mean that Mint/Mine wouldn't work?

Otherwise, you could Mint a Hoard that you bought from the Black Market. Or get two copies of Ambassador from the Black Market when you play your Talisman. And so on.

[Malaprop]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

[lespeutere]

Didn't we decide that 'Gain' implicitly means 'Gain from the supply' which would mean that Mint/Mine wouldn't work?

That's what I was referring to. Same for squire: you shouldn't be able to gain followers.

[WanderingWinder]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

[joel88s]

Mint + Spoils would be another way to gain them, if you really wanted them.

I'm also guessing that simulators will like Pillage/Spoils + BMU a lot.

I'd say it needs to be in the supply (which it isn't) to be gainable with mint.

This is a good question. Certainly you can't gain a Diadem with Mint, but there's only one of those...

This came up when we were talking about Madman yesterday. If a card says to gain something, it means from the supply unless otherwise specified; and Mint just says "gain", so if it's not in the supply you can't mint it.

Too bad. Nothing like the smell of freshly minted spoils.

[lespeutere]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

Well, it's trash - discard - put on top. As it reads.

[mnavratil]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

[DrFlux]

Rats!

Well... very very interesting thing that Donald said this is his favorite card.

I cannot really think about this card in the new setting. Let me ask the "conventional" question: is this card any good with 9 other kingdom cards that are from hinterlands or before?

I think rats is VERY good with upgrade or apprentice. With either, the rats eat up the chaff, and the additional card eats the rats AND provides some good other benefits. Other trashing cards could work as well, but since rats give you cards when trashed, cantrip ones are better (or you could add a village to say... remake, but in that case I might just buy remake and not mess with rats).

[Malaprop]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I guess what I'm saying is is that if you have to trash first, because Lookout is "look at" and not "reveal," there is no accountability on what that second card was meaning that if you trashed the Rats and got a +1 card, there is nothing but honesty stopping the player from just picking the better of the next two cards to draw immediately.  Because of that inherent problem I feel like the trash, discard, and place on top must either be simulataneous or player's choice.

[RiemannZetaJones]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

[PSGarak]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

So the question is, are "revealed" cards still in your deck, or do they live in a separate pocket dimension while being operated on? Personally I'm a fan of pocket dimensions, so I'm going to go with drawing a card other than the ones being Looked Out.

[Varsinor]

Rats intrigues me, largely because I don't understand why you'd want it.  You only want it on boards with other trashing, right?  Or eventually you'll have tons of Curse-equivalents in your deck.  But if you have other trashing, why do you want Rats?

I think that you don't want Rats unless there there is a trash-for-benefit card. Or a Watchtower.
So Rats should be (or at least could be) good with (in no particular order):
Graverobber
Watchtower
Apprentice
Salvager
Develop
Trader
Upgrade
Remake
Remodel
Expand
Bishop
Forge
further cards along these lines in Dark Ages

When there is a curser *and* a looter, you might want to get Rats even in spite of the the abscence of one of these cards.
But I don't think you'll want them in other cases!
You most certainly don't want them for trashing your Coppers if you don't have any way to get rid of them again...

EDIT: Forgot Forge

[AJD]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

[WanderingWinder]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

So the question is, are "revealed" cards still in your deck, or do they live in a separate pocket dimension while being operated on? Personally I'm a fan of pocket dimensions, so I'm going to go with drawing a card other than the ones being Looked Out.

This comes up every day. You, the player whose card it is, trashes the thing.

Each other player trashes the top card of his deck and gains a card with the same cost that you choose.

See, the dude whose rats it is trashes it. Donald thought of everything.

[AJD]

presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land"

(Lewis Carroll's little-known sequel, Alice in Looking-At-Cards Land)

[Grujah]

You would think Pillage would be a looter.. 

[joel88s]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

The final instruction to put the third card on top of your deck would seem to imply that they are not on your deck while you're looking at them.

[Drab Emordnilap]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

[AJD]

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

The final instruction to put the third card on top of your deck would seem to imply that they are not on your deck while you're looking at them.

True! But it's not like the rules tell you to put them anywhere else (while you're looking at them). Pearl Diver says "You may put it on top" without saying "If you don't put it on top, put it back on the bottom"—so "looking at" a card doesn't automatically change its location.

But I do totally agree with you; it would be madness to consider that the looked-at cards are still in some sense all still on your deck until you decide what to do with them. Cf <a href="http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/758960/golem-and-revealing-cards">this BGG thread about Golem</a>. And <a href="http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/555659/where-are-actions-revealed-by-golem">this one</a>.

[Varsinor]

Island/Gardens rush, hiding all your Gardens away on Islands, then just keep Ratting it up.  If you empty the whole pile, each Gardens will be...  2 VP each...  but it seems like a sensible rush.

Doesn't sound sensible to me without support. The Rats should interfere with your ability to buy $4 cards pretty quickly.

[Donald X.]

I am wondering what the iteractionn of Rats is with Lookout.  Lookout says "+1 Action, Look at the top
3 cards of your deck. Trash one of them. Discard one of them. Put the other one on top of your deck."
Because of the "look at" function there is no accountability on what you do first: trash, discard, place.
Is there supposed to be an order to those three?  If not I guess Lookout + Rats in one of the 3 top cards
would make Lookout function as a cantrip with you actually getting the card you place on top.

I am not understanding what you mean there, but if it helps, you do things in the order the card tells you to. So trash, then discard, then place.

I think this gets confusing because if you trash the rats you draw a card. Which card do you draw? Do you finish the lookout discard/top deck action and then immediately draw the card (this is my interpretation) or do you draw the card that is below the 3 lookout cards?

My guess is that the card-draw for Rats happens at the same speed as a reaction, that is it happens immediately before the Lookout has finished resolving. So the card drawn would be the one below the three cards being looked at.

This is a confusing issue because "Look at the top 3 cards of your deck" doesn't state that they're not still "the top 3 cards in your deck" while they're being looked at. But to consider them as still being on top of your deck while you're resolving Lookout would be madness—presumably they're just in "Looking-At-Cards Land". A similar question came up with regard to Golem a while ago.

Yes, the three cards for Lookout are in being-looked-at land, and trashing Rats draws you the top card of your deck, not one of those cards.

[Varsinor]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

[mnavratil]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.

[WanderingWinder]

Island/Gardens rush, hiding all your Gardens away on Islands, then just keep Ratting it up.  If you empty the whole pile, each Gardens will be...  2 VP each...  but it seems like a sensible rush.

Doesn't sound sensible to me without support. The Rats should interfere with your ability to buy $4 cards pretty quickly.

And it doesn't sound like a RUSH to me at all. It will take you a zillion turns to get all those gardens and islands, and by a zillion, I mean at least 17, and more likely somewhere around 20, at least if you want to get the things islanded away. And you need at least one more turn to get a rats, and probably several more really, because you can't actually start getting rats until late, because they'll choke you to death. Though your gardens are going to be worth 3 there, so hey, that's something. But not near enough to beat, say, BMU+island, I would guess (even though that speeds you up).

Though, hey, it is sorta cool, if you get 2 rats and no cards in your deck (i.e. you've drawn them all), you CAN gain the whole pile at once: play a rats, draw nothing, get an action, gain a rats, (can't trash a rats, so at least you still have that); play a rats, draw the rats, get an action, gain a rats, can't trash rats, rinse and repeat.

[WanderingWinder]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.

I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

[Varsinor]

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!

Actually, Mint does say that the gained copy must be from the supply (just as Smugglers and some other gainers by the way) - although only in the additional kingdom card descriptions.

Mine doesn't say it anywhere as far as I can see, though.

As for the general rule people have been mentioning many times here that gained cards must always come from the supply - fair enough of course, I suppose Donald X. has stated that somewhere. But I haven't read it from him and as far as I know it is not in the rulebooks accompanying the expansions. Therefore I would vote for including that rule in the Dark Ages rulebook so that it is not some obscure rules knowledge that you can only have when going through forum postings from Donald X.

[mnavratil]

So what happens if you trash someone else's rats, say with Swindler? Who draws the extra card?

I don't think there's ever been a card that lets someone else trash one of your cards.

Well, sure - Swindler (which you already cited) and Saboteur (and also Posession, but it doesn't usually matter there).

I think he's being pedantic. Swindler and Saboteur have you trash a card because your opponent played them. They don't allow your opponent to trash a card.

I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

Now who's being pedantic? (Sorry couldn't resist).

[Fangz]

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.

[Qvist]

Rats
Cool theme, but it seems terrible at first glance. You have to gain a Rats if you trash a card and you can't trash Rats with Rats. So you definitely need another trasher if you want Rats. But with another trasher, why buy Rats in the first place?? I'm still not understanding this card, especially for the high cost of $4. Again there's a combo with Watchtower. You can trash a card with a Laboratory. This will be great.
$4 #43 out of 45

Pillage / Spoils
A one-shot attack for targetted discarding. And you get 2 one-sot Golds from that. That's of course the strongest dicarding attack, but it's only a one-shot. Very hard to evaluate.
I think the attack is weak in the beginning: Basically a one-shot Cutpurse, but it gains you two early Golds. Later in the game the attack gets stronger, but you maybe won't be able to see those Golds again. I think this a decent attack, but no power $5. Maybe a Pillage rush is possible where you pick up Pillages to gain Spoils and buy Provinces as fast as you can.
$5 #26 out of 51

Crosspost. I boosted Graverobber a little bit because of all those one-shots and trash-for-benefit abilities.

Haha, Watchtower will be a power card after this expansion will be released.
So far I have a hard time evaluating the new cards, especially one-shots like Pillage/Spoils and Hermit/Madman.

[Varsinor]

I wouldn't say that it's pedantic (anymore), since it actually makes a difference in what happens in gameplay scenarios.

I agree, Drab Emordnilap was right actually - I just wasn't exact enough in my reply.

[Ferrouswheel]

I may have missed it, but what happens when you trash a cultist or a rats when you are possessing someone?

You still get the benefits, I assume?

[lespeutere]

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.

Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

[Fangz]

Cool theme, but it seems terrible at first glance. You have to gain a Rats if you trash a card and you can't trash Rats with Rats. So you definitely need another trasher if you want Rats. But with another trasher, why buy Rats in the first place?? I'm still not understanding this card, especially for the high cost of $4. Again there's a combo with Watchtower. You can trash a card with a Laboratory. This will be great.

I think you are misunderstanding the cost issue - if anything else, the high cost helps Rats, because it means the cards have more value, since it can be upgraded or remade into a $5, as a potentially fast way of increasing the value of a deck. If Rats were $3, they would be much worse.

[Donald X.]

Actually, Mint does say that the gained copy must be from the supply (just as Smugglers and some other gainers by the way) - although only in the additional kingdom card descriptions.

Mine doesn't say it anywhere as far as I can see, though.

You are correct, Mine's FAQ is missing this rule. That is a mistake; Mine can only gain cards from the supply.

When you make someone trash a Cultist when you are Possessing them, they draw the three cards.

[jsimantov]

I may have missed it, but what happens when you trash a cultist or a rats when you are possessing someone?

You still get the benefits, I assume?

Possession is pretty clear if you read the rules. Remember that the other player is the one taking a turn, and you are just making their decisions for them and gaining cards they would gain. So if you make them trash a trash-for-benefit card, and the benefit is to gain a card, you gain it instead. But if the benefit is to draw cards, they draw them (of course, you are controlling them at the time, so it indirectly benefits you).

Also, of course, when you make a Possessed player trash a card, it's set aside and returned to their discard after Clean-up -- but that doesn't mean it isn't "trashed" for an instant first, so the benefit is still triggered.

[mnavratil]

True, playing a rats and trashing a copper instantly adds $4 worth of 'value' to your deck for the purpose of most TFB cards. Even so, it still seems like any combo involving rats will be tricky to pull off (or just too slow to be worthwhile).

[eHalcyon]

Cross-posting!

Batch 4

Rats

This is the next DA design rule breaker -- no more than 10 cards in a supply pile.  Well, I don't know if it was really a rule, though I was always against cards that took up extra supply space.  But Rats definitely works better with 20!

So Rats is actually quite a liability.  If you don't have a way to get rid of them, they will destroy your deck from the inside.  Watchtower is useful, of course -- stop Rats as they come in.  Other TFB would also be helped by all the fodder.  I can't think of situations where you want Rats unless there is another trasher available.  Maybe something will come up in a future preview.

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pillage/Spoils

My first thought -- awesome wordplay.  The attack doesn't benefit your current turn.  In that, it is like Sea Hag and Saboteur.  Hag is amazing, Sab is not so much.  Pillage costs $5 like Sab.  But the attack is likely to hurt a LOT, especially after the early game.  No wonder it's a one-shot.

The Spoils are a nice little prize too.  That they are also one-shot... hm.  The wording on the card means that Pillage is throneable/KC-able, giving you much more Spoils than usual.

Since everything about Pillage and Spoils disappears after use, it might be a very nice way to kickstart a treasureless deck.  Spoils can provide the cash you need for your first Grand Market or Goons, and then you're off to the races.  This is further facilitated by Squire, in that Squire can get you to Pillage without treasure as well!

[RiemannZetaJones]

An important feature of Rats is going to be how fast you can run down the Rat pile to end the game with an engine deck.

[Robz888]

So, since Robz hasn't posted yet... I feel this urge to ask and answer "But how do these cards combo with scout?"
Well, Rats is easy - they trash all of those ugly treasures and actions, so your scouts will draw all of your delicious victory cards for you.
Pillage, well that lets you get rid of your opponents' scouts from their hands, so at least it's good in the mirror.
And spoils don't sit around clogging your deck up, so once you use them once, they won't interfere with your scouts grabbing that green for you. Also, since you only use them once, they encourage you to buy green right now, so go scout! Better than gold!

Good work, but this is really just scratching the surface of how the new Dark Ages cards combo with Scout, or as I'm now calling Scout, Double Wharfebank (It's like a Wharf and a Mountebank times 2).

How They Combo With Scout, Part 4

Rats: Okay, first you play Scout, so now you know what all your next cards are, and you put the one you want on top. Then you play Rats, and you get that card! And you can play it. This combo is basically a little stronger than Hamlet/Library.

Pillage: Okay, you just keep buying Scout. Scout, Scout, Scout (or Double Wharfebank, Double Wharfebank, Double Wharfebank). And hey, you and the other players are Pillaging each other. Well, now when you get Pillaged, they make you discard a Scout, it's no big deal! Because you have 4 other Scouts in hand. This is a rush strategy.

Spoils: Since you can't buy this Treasure, you can buy Scout instead.

[werothegreat]

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pied Piper
Action - $3

Reveal a card from your hand.  Reveal cards from your deck until you've revealed four duplicates of the card from your hand.  Trash all the duplicates, trash the revealed card from your hand, and discard the rest of the revealed cards.

[Fangz]

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.

Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

Yes, but not any old trasher will combo effectively - the trasher must derive effective value from the fact that you have a rats there, and not an estate or a copper, and the trasher must be inexpensive enough to be picked up despite having a deck with many non-self replacing cards.

Hermit, for instance would be just as effective trashing estates for silvers directly. And buying a rat, then a hermit, to have a poor man's Mine would probably be a bad idea. Forge would probably only be effective in a very rare sort of engine, because it'll be difficult to afford in time. Graverobber or expand might work, but without a strong $7, would function identically to a more expensive, less flexible remodel.

[mnavratil]

An important feature of Rats is going to be how fast you can run down the Rat pile to end the game with an engine deck.

Short of buying them, I don't see how any deck could run out the rats with any points leftover (okay, VP token decks could do this, since they don't care about victory cards). In order to secure all 20 rats, you need to have 20 cards to replace in your engine, or meticulously setup your deck so that rats will only ever draw other rats and don't have to trash anything. Neither of these seem likely.

[werothegreat]

I feel like rats are going to be very situational, and dependent on there being a trash for benefit card. Rats + salvager, remake, apprentice, upgrade or remodel would rule. Rats with anything else would be almost as bad as a curse.

Just counted: technically, there were 21 cards that may trash action cards before dark ages, + graverobber and hermit from this expansion.

Yes, but not any old trasher will combo effectively - the trasher must derive effective value from the fact that you have a rats there, and not an estate or a copper, and the trasher must be inexpensive enough to be picked up despite having a deck with many non-self replacing cards.

Hermit, for instance would be just as effective trashing estates for silvers directly. And buying a rat, then a hermit, to have a poor man's Mine would probably be a bad idea. Forge would probably only be effective in a very rare sort of engine, because it'll be difficult to afford in time. Graverobber might work, but without a strong $7, would function identically to a more expensive, less flexible remodel.

I think Apprentice would be best here.  Use the Rats to get rid of your Estates and Coppers, then Apprentice the Rats for +5 cards.

[WanderingWinder]

Ways in which your engine running out the rats pile can help you win, even though you have to trash, like, everything:
1. Your opponent is on a negative score.
2. You have VP on mats (haven, native village, most notably island) that gives you the lead
3. You have VP in play (great hall, nobles, and with black market, harem)
4. You have VP chips
5. You have enough money and buys left over to buy enough vp to give you the lead anyway.


Oh, I guess you could just have even more cards than that, too.

[Schneau]

Mint does not mention the supply.  I'd say Mint those Spoils!

Maybe this is another 'joke', but workshop doesn't mention the supply either, and you can't gain followers with it, or a not-in-the-kingdom fishing village, or....

... a Jack of (all) Spades.

[Serialian]

Seems like rats, hamlet and poor house would combo well enough together. Extra buys, extra actions and a deck o crap.

[Fangz]

Re: Pillage...

I think that actually, in some sense, what you are *really* buying with this card are the two spoils. Because the attack is one time, it (in most cases, without Graverobber shenanigans) only works to offset your tempo loss from buying the pillage - in most cases, the damage you do by discarding one card of theirs would be, in my mind, pretty similar (or perhaps, even inferior) to the price to you of soaking a $5 turn on it and then playing it with an action.

Seems like rats, hamlet and poor house would combo well enough together. Extra buys, extra actions and a deck o crap.

Surely hamlet/poor house would be the combo here.

[chwhite]

Day 4:

Rats: A cantrip trasher for $4.  Pretty nice, huh.  Except if it's your only source of trashing it really is just going to spread through your deck like a plague (har har), and you'll be left with either a lot of dead cards or trashing everything good.  There's probably a way you can play with fire here- Bishop is the first thing that comes to mind- but my first impression is that you're likely to get burned pretty often if you go Rats.  Definitely looks like it needs some other source of trashing to be viable, and if you have other trashing that makes it less attractive in the first place. My first impression is therefore that this is probably really weak, but it could infrequently usable be part of a coordinated trashing strategy with something that doesn't hit Copper, say (Hermit!), and then ends up spending most of its Actions keeping the rat problem in check.  Which could work, but also could be more trouble than it's worth.

Pillage: Targeted discard!  And the way to balance it is to make it a one-shot, that's actually kind of brilliant.  At this point Donald is just pretty clearly f***ing with us.  Tomorrow's preview is goin g to include a cantrip Moat, you heard it here first.  Now, a one-shot $5 is hard to go for even if the shot is nasty, so it seems to include Spoils as a way to rebalance it.  The combined effect of one-shot targeted discard, with an aftereffect of two Golds in your next pass through, is that this looks like something that's going to be great for Big Money decks playing versus an engine.  Knock out your opponents' key card, and get a one-time cash infusion sure to be good for a Province or two. 

But it does nothing for you the turn you play it, which is more often than not the hallmark of a weak attack (Saboetur, Bureaucrat).  A nasty, nasty card whose power level I am very unsure of.

Spoils: Now, see, it would've been great if Feodums counted Spoils.  Though you'd have to store them up and not use them then.  I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.  That might make it easier to run this pile out.  Obviously most decks will be thrilled to add some Spoils to their warchest, but relying on Spoils as your primary source of income could lead to nasty over-greening problems after they're gone. 

Now to see what others have said.

[werothegreat]

Spoils: I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.

Donald X says explicitly in the preview paragraphs that there will be non-one-shot Spoils-giving kingdom cards.

[chwhite]

Spoils: I wonder if all the Spoils-giving cards are one-shots that give Spoils to provide recompense for their fleeting nature, or if one of them gets you a Spoils and sticks around.

Donald X says explicitly in the preview paragraphs that there will be non-one-shot Spoils-giving kingdom cards.

Ah, duh.  I should read more closely.

[jotheonah]

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?

[AJD]

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?

True. Spoils gets returns to its stack when you play it, and Herbalist's power activates during cleanup.

[Willvon]

I believe it was Wandering Winder in yesterday's preview forum that mentioned that this expansion is shaping up to be much more tactical than previous expansions.  And just think, we have only seen 9 of the 35 kingdom cards so far.  And we are still yet to see Shelters and the upgrade card.  If these few cards are changing our whole approach to the game, what else does Donald have up his sleeve?  Whatever it is, it is going to be great!

[sherwinpr]

I believe it was Wandering Winder in yesterday's preview forum that mentioned that this expansion is shaping up to be much more tactical than previous expansions.  And just think, we have only seen 9 of the 35 kingdom cards so far.  And we are still yet to see Shelters and the upgrade card.  If these few cards are changing our whole approach to the game, what else does Donald have up his sleeve?  Whatever it is, it is going to be great!

At 26 kingdom cards left, it means there's a whole Seaside or Hinterlands worth of Kingdom cards remaining (plus the aforementioned upgraded card and Shelters, and the non-obvious Ruin).

[jotheonah]

Apologies if this has been asked (didn't have time to read four pages) but Herbalist doesn't "break" Spoils, right? Like you can't use your Herbalist powers to gank a Spoils back, because the Spoils doesn't even make it to your clean-up phase?

True. Spoils gets returns to its stack when you play it, and Herbalist's power activates during cleanup.

Kinda too bad. That would be a nice little boost to Herbalist. But I guess it might be a little bit game-breaking.

[CaptainNevada]

With Rats, you have to wonder if the cure is worse than the disease, particularly with junk-infested decks.  It can probably end up eating the junk from a plaque of Montebanks in multiplayer games - but without a way to control the Rats... you get the idea.  I have no doubt it can be a really fast trasher of a deck of junk, but I think it is only going to be useful when it is in play with another trasher (to control the Rats). 

Since Dark Ages has some love for silver Develop is probably a useful card to turn Rats into silver and a good $5 card (opening Rats / Develop may be a pretty fast start).  Remake is already a good fast trasher at the same price point, and with Poor House at $1 it isn't the deck thinner it can be if that is on the table.  The extra helping of Rats in the supply almost seems towards balancing out a fast three pile ending (with only 10 Rats the Curses become a viable buy pile with the Rats eating the curses while the Rats breed). 

I shudder to think of the combos with Pillage.  All the tricks that go with Governor (or Council Room) and a handsize reduction attack can be expanded (with a bit of help) to get rid of the best card of an opponent before they lose most of the rest of their hands.  Plus the Pillager gets the Spoils. 

[werothegreat]

Hermit + Scheme = Yes!

Spoils + Herbalist = No!

I mean, you can't Scheme a Madman, either.

[GendoIkari]

but on each play of rats, you are just replacing a card with a rats (rather than thinning), and gee, I don't know how good a trade that is.

This is the big thing for me... Rats don't really "trash" a card... they just replace a card with a Rats. I too am quite confused as to how Rats is a good card; but I'm also willing to bet that there's a whole bunch of combos out there that we haven't thought of yet (or combos with cards we haven't seen yet) that will make Rats pretty awesome.

[Mister Alex]

Rats + Vineyard = 

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

[Willvon]

My thoughts on Shelters:

First of all, I apologize if I unintentionally semi-plagiarize an idea someone else had in previous threads when people were expressing ideas about Shelters.  I do recall that most everyone felt it would provide some sort of victory point, even if it was negative.  I have been thinking about the name "Shelters".  That suggests something different to me.

No one has problems with living in an Estate.  And if it is your Duchy, Province, or Colony, obviously you are going to have a place to live, and a nice one at that.  But a Shelter implies a pretty low budget residence, maybe even somewhere below a tent in some cases, though a tent could certainly be considered a shelter.  On the other hand, if you have a choice between a Ruins and a Shelter, I think the choice would be pretty obvious.  So I feel with the name "Shelter" and the fact that they will only be in your starting hand, not in the supply (since there are only 18 of them), it will not have any victory point value.  Rather, I believe its main function will be to exist in games that have Ruins, and thus it will serve as some sort of Shelter from the Ruins.  Unfortunately, they still take up space in your hand, like a starting Estate.  And we know how quickly we try to get rid of those Estates.  So now the choice will be whether to get rid of the Shelter and face living in a Ruin, or stick with the Shelter, which will slow down your upgrade to a better place of dwelling.

Consider the names of the other Alt-Victory Cards we have.  They pretty much all imply something positive.  Who doesn't want to be a Duke or a Noble?  Every good Castle needs a Great Hall and a nice Garden, and of course, a Harem.  And isn't it a good thing to have a Vineyard to make some good wine along with some Farmland to grow some good food to go with the wine?  Also, who wouldn't want to have their own Island?  Having a Fairgrounds suggests a happy occasion, and sending someone down the Silk Road with goods to trade means you are going to get some pretty nice stuff in return.  Of course, there is Tunnel - not the greatest place to live, but this Tunnel is a mining tunnel that gives a rich reward.  Shelters just doesn't evoke any positive images to me like these others do.

I may be totally off on this idea, but the name of the card just seemed to fit that concept.  If they are as I suggest, then I could see Donald explaining their purpose in a similar way.

[jotheonah]

Rats + Vineyard = 

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.

[WanderingWinder]

Rats + Vineyard = 

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.

You can do it with two.

[Whitecrow]

I'd like to try Rats+Oasis+Vineyard.

Rush for Vineyard and Oasis (or any cantrip money), then buy out Rats pool to finish the game!

I figure that If you draw whole deck and have all rats hand, you can gain all remaining rats in one turn.
(let's say you have one rats in hand, one rats in discard pile, and empty draw pile.)

[popsofctown]

It seems like you can just pick up Rats late in a deck that has not started trashing yet, and it will function kind of like a 1/3 warehouse that gains other 1/3 warehouses and helps you filter and buy the last couple Provinces

[jotheonah]

Rats + Vineyard = 

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.

You can do it with two.

So
Step 1. Somehow purchase all the Vineyards while NVing your starting cards and Vineyards as fast as possible.
Step 2. Buy a Rats (or 2)
Step 3. Eat everything, including the Potions and the final NV, gaining all the Rats.
Step 4. Hope that somehow you emptied a third pile in the process, because good luck ending the game with a deck of 20 Rats and no buying power.
Step 5. End the game with most of the Vineyards and 21 action cards (assuming at least one NV made it to the NV mat and avoided being eaten)

Step 1 is really the problem. It would be a very cool stunt deck if you could make it happen though.

[jotheonah]

I'd like to try Rats+Oasis+Vineyard.

Rush for Vineyard and Oasis (or any cantrip money), then buy out Rats pool to finish the game!

I figure that If you draw whole deck and have all rats hand, you can gain all remaining rats in one turn.
(let's say you have one rats in hand, one rats in discard pile, and empty draw pile.)

I guess having the actions in play is a much more obvious (and elegant) solution for getting them out of the way.

[WanderingWinder]

It seems like you can just pick up Rats late in a deck that has not started trashing yet, and it will function kind of like a 1/3 warehouse that gains other 1/3 warehouses and helps you filter and buy the last couple Provinces

This seems terrible. 1/3 warehouse is bad enough, because you are getting to choose 4 of 5, rather than 4 of 7, which is a huge deal, but that you actually have to trash the thing hurts more, because you can't use it to whip past VP so readily, particularly in your late-game scenario.
It also costs 4.

[Fuu]

I am chuffed to see a self-duplicating card. Never thought it would be a trashing card, but it's nicely thematic this way. Seriously considering getting this set, mostly because of Rats... I wonder if there will be a reaction in this set that helps against Rats, e.g., when you trash a card, you may reveal this; if you do, draw up to n>5. Or even, if you do, you may gain a copy of that card (ok that wording doesn't work, but something similar). So many possibilities.

Still, a shame that there isn't going to be an alternative victory card (at least in this set) that counts something to do with the trash pile - maybe it wouldn't have worked for some reason? REALLY looking forward to reading the secret history behind this set - so many design decisions I want to hear about.

[popsofctown]

Oasis doesn't really work, you'd trash your vineyards.  Joth's rat rush works though, and I think it'd be the only way to play the board the combo shows up on.

[Grujah]

Best Rats Tactics:

Open Masq/Rats.
Give Rats to your opponent.

[WanderingWinder]

Rats + Vineyard = 

I'm imagining a game where on your last run through your deck, you embark on some mammoth KC-Rats rampage, replacing all money, potions, etc with Rats so as to heavily cash in on Vineyards.  Along the way you play some +Buy cards and at the end of this crazy turn, clear out the Ruins pile (since you have no money left).

"But wait!" your flabbergasted opponent might say.  "What if the Rats devour your Vineyards?  Who will keep them safe?"

"Why, the most crucial, lynchpin card of all," you reply with a knowing wink. "The Scout."

I'm very intrigued by Rats-Vineyards, though I don't see it working that well.

If you have nothing in your deck but a single Rats, do you get to immediately draw the Rats you gain? Could you therefore gain all the Rats in one turn? Because if that's the case, Vineyards-Native Village into a Rats rush MIGHT be feasible.

But since +1 Card happens first, I assume that's a bad interpretation.

You can do it with two.

So
Step 1. Somehow purchase all the Vineyards while NVing your starting cards and Vineyards as fast as possible.
Step 2. Buy a Rats (or 2)
Step 3. Eat everything, including the Potions and the final NV, gaining all the Rats.
Step 4. Hope that somehow you emptied a third pile in the process, because good luck ending the game with a deck of 20 Rats and no buying power.
Step 5. End the game with most of the Vineyards and 21 action cards (assuming at least one NV made it to the NV mat and avoided being eaten)

Step 1 is really the problem. It would be a very cool stunt deck if you could make it happen though.

Scout! (and some kind of discarder.... warehouse or something)

[Grujah]

I mean, all Rats scenarios start like a good idea and seem to be just a wild dream. I mean, your just replacing things with Rats, and that's the main problem.

Next Card Preview:
Plague
$6
Reveal your hand, cards in play, deck and discard pile. If all cards are named either Rats or Plague, you win the game.
----
Setup: Add Rats to the supply.

[gamesou]

You should go to the black market. They have sterilized their rats.

[GendoIkari]

I mean, all Rats scenarios start like a good idea and seem to be just a wild dream. I mean, your just replacing things with Rats, and that's the main problem.

Next Card Preview:
Plague
$6
Reveal your hand, cards in play, deck and discard pile. If all cards are named either Rats or Plague, you win the game.
----
Setup: Add Rats to the supply.

Probably far too easy to pull off...

[Schneau]

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).

[popsofctown]

You should go to the black market. They have sterilized their rats.

Oh I get it now!

[GendoIkari]

I'm disappointed that none of these cards were described as "the ____ you always knew I'd make." I found those to be quite funny for the last 3 days.

"Rats is the self-replicating, deck-eating, insane action card you always knew I'd make."

[GendoIkari]

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).

Indeed, it's possible that Rats will be similar to Tunnel, in that when there's no TFB card, you just completely ignore it (or get 1 or 2 at the end to try and clear out a couple curses for the extra VP). But I really hope that new combos are discovered where it just turns out to be an awesome buy at least a fair amount of the time.

[Powerman]

[Squeek]

Imagine if shelters was an action that read "place this shelter on a pile in the supply.  It must be gained before gaining any cards beneath it." with a cost of 2.

The implication would be tremendous, although games may never end.

[joel88s]

Also, I really, really hope that there is some sort of Pied Piper card.

Pied Piper
Action - $3

Reveal a card from your hand.  Reveal cards from your deck until you've revealed four duplicates of the card from your hand.  Trash all the duplicates, trash the revealed card from your hand, and discard the rest of the revealed cards.

In this context that card sounds like 'Exterminator'.

[eHalcyon]

Pied Piper
$4 - Victory-Action

You may gain a Rats in hand.  Reveal any number of Rats from your hand.  Return them to the supply; each other player gains that number of Rats.

This is worth 1 VP for every 2 Rats in another player's deck.

[LastFootnote]

Rats might be worse than Scout, but I'll have to play hundreds of game to know for sure.

Why does that make you sad? Sounds like fun times to me!

[werothegreat]

I'd like to see what Lord Bottington does with Rats.  Better yet, I want Robz to write a diary entry about it.

[zahlman]

Though, hey, it is sorta cool, if you get 2 rats and no cards in your deck (i.e. you've drawn them all), you CAN gain the whole pile at once: play a rats, draw nothing, get an action, gain a rats, (can't trash a rats, so at least you still have that); play a rats, draw the rats, get an action, gain a rats, can't trash rats, rinse and repeat.

You'll end up trashing probably everything else in your hand, though. And then what are you going to do with them all? I guess this is just something you do in order to pile out?

[CaptainNevada]

Rats is stronger at $4 than it would be at $2. It's main strength will be turning your Coppers, Estates, and Curses into Rats, and then using trash-for-benefit cards to trash the Rats. Since Rats cost more than Coppers and Estates, the benefit will be greater (plus you get +1 Card).

Rats almost certainly are far more attractive on a trash for benefit board.  I wonder if it would be possible to Duchy / Duke rush with Rats and Remake.

[shMerker]

Combo Rats with Trader to make a rat ranch. Whenever a new rat is born trade it for silver. Then trade the adults for four silvers a piece. See how awesome the trader is? He can even sell Rats.

Rats could help grease a scrying pool deck by replacing your starting cards with actions.

And they turn upgrade into essentially +2 Cards +1 Action. Gain a card costing $5. That's pretty cool.

[shMerker]

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.

[CaptainNevada]

Somewhere in Dominion there has to be a variant on the old proposition about cat skins being worth money, so they'll breed cats.  And feed them rats, which breed rats.  To feed the cats they'll feed them the rats, and the rats will eat the cats (minus the skins) so they'll get the cat skins for nothing.

Perhaps Develop is that scheme.  You get Rats and the Rats multiply.  So you Develop the rats into a Duchy (profit!) and a cost costing $3.  What do you feed the Rats?  Why the card costing $3 you got for free when you killed the Rat and went along with your profit (Duchy). 

[werothegreat]

Somewhere in Dominion there has to be a variant on the old proposition about cat skins being worth money, so they'll breed cats.  And feed them rats, which breed rats.  To feed the cats they'll feed them the rats, and the rats will eat the cats (minus the skins) so they'll get the cat skins for nothing.

Perhaps Develop is that scheme.  You get Rats and the Rats multiply.  So you Develop the rats into a Duchy (profit!) and a cost costing $3.  What do you feed the Rats?  Why the card costing $3 you got for free when you killed the Rat and went along with your profit (Duchy).

Develop!  Now the best $3, thanks to Dark Ages!

[dondon151]

The rats are so adorable

[engineer]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

[zahlman]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal.

I second the previous suggestion for Apprentice.

[Grujah]

Squire/Pillage.

Nice.

[LastFootnote]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal.

Except that if you're doing this, you may be forced to trash the trasher as soon as you draw it.

[werothegreat]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal.

Except that if you're doing this, you may be forced to trash the trasher as soon as you draw it.

That's if you let your deck clog up with Rats.  If you draw a hand with 5 rats, you may as well resign.

[Insomniac]

Isn't this how you summon Robz?

[Squeek]

Rules question:  when you use a trash for benefit on a card that has a benefit when trashed,  which benefit happens first?

Eg: your hand contains a rat, a remodel, and a watch tower.  You remodel the rat into a gold and reveal the watch tower to put it on your deck.  Do you get the +1 card for trashing the rat before or after gaining the gold?

[werothegreat]

Rules question:  when you use a trash for benefit on a card that has a benefit when trashed,  which benefit happens first?

Eg: your hand contains a rat, a remodel, and a watch tower.  You remodel the rat into a gold and reveal the watch tower to put it on your deck.  Do you get the +1 card for trashing the rat before or after gaining the gold?

Remodel has two steps:
1) Trash a card.
2) Gain a card.

The +1 Card effect from Rats is simultaneous with step 1) from Remodel.

So, you Remodel the Rats.  Rats is trashed, draw 1 card.  Gain a Gold, Watchtower it to your deck.

[Insomniac]

Looking forward to

Remodeling a rats, drawing a card, gaining a border village, gaining a cultist

[GendoIkari]

And they turn upgrade into essentially +2 Cards +1 Action. Gain a card costing $5. That's pretty cool.

Actually Upgrade becomes +1 Card +1 Action Gain a card costing $5. After you play Upgrade, draw a card for it, trash a Rats from hand, and draw a card for that, you are left with 5 cards in hand, not 6.

[WanderingWinder]

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.

People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

[ftl]

Rats won't be worse than scout. At the very least, Rat/Trash-for-benefit will be a powerful combo, with a few different TFBs fitting pretty well into that slot.

[werothegreat]

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.

People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

Swindler to give them Rats is a fair point, though.

[clb]

Develop!  Now the best $3, thanks to Dark Ages!

I think I might put Develop as #2 (also depending on yet-to-be-revealed cards), but the card that keeps standing out in my mind with many of these strategies is Watchtower. It has become a must-buy with so many of the self-trashing benefits. But, yes, Develop looks pretty nice with a lot of these new cards.

[werothegreat]

Develop!  Now the best $3, thanks to Dark Ages!

I think I might put Develop as #2 (also depending on yet-to-be-revealed cards), but the card that keeps standing out in my mind with many of these strategies is Watchtower. It has become a must-buy with so many of the self-trashing benefits. But, yes, Develop looks pretty nice with a lot of these new cards.

Well, Watchtower was always good.  Develop went from "Oooh cool 2 cards for 1!" to "Ew it topdecks them and it's slow and trashers are supposed to make your deck SMALLER" to "Hmm this combos well with Dark Ages..."

Maybe Develop should have come out in this set...

[HiveMindEmulator]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.

[GendoIkari]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

[Davio]

I think we are getting more and more of the big picture in Dark Ages.

We have to remember that Donald created most if not all cards before even the base set came out.
And he had to fiddle a lot with the sets and expansions, placing cards from later expansions in earlier expansions and vice versa and even coming out with Alchemy way ahead of schedule because the publisher wanted an extra small expansion.

Can you imagine Alchemy coming out at this stage? Maybe it would receive more credit than it has had when it came out so early. A Potion? Who wants that!? What a weird expansion! With Dark Ages we see that nothing is impossible and nothing is off limits. Messing with the trash, $1 cards, extra supply piles, he's throwing everything but the kitchen sink at us.

After the final epxansion (Guilds???) has come out, we will finally be able to look at the Dominion landscape as a whole and understand what he wanted to achieve with every card. Scout may finally take its rightful place as the top $4 card and Develop is already getting an extra life with Dark Ages.

[GendoIkari]

Scout may finally take its rightful place as the top $4 card

+1 for the post as a whole, but especially this.

The very last card previewed for Guilds (after we have seen every Dominion card ever to exist except just this last one) is going to be:

Scoutmaster
$0 - Action
Reveal your hand. If you reveal a Scout, gain all remaining Victory Cards.

Setup: If Scout is not in the Kingdom, add it to the Kingdom.

[ftl]

Oh, and I think Pillage/Graverobber is going to be a pretty brutal combo in an engine. Endless targeted discard attacks which also give you money!

[HiveMindEmulator]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

[GendoIkari]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

[CaptainNevada]

That's if you let your deck clog up with Rats.  If you draw a hand with 5 rats, you may as well resign.

That is part of the trick with Rats.  It may be very very easy to cross the tipping point where Rats benefit your deck to where they drag it down.  That's why Rats is almost certainly going to be better with another trasher, and shine with a good trash for benefit card. 

Rats is certainly at home in Dark Ages where the theme is trashing.  It trashes well and provides a benefit for trashing itself.  Plus it works best with other trashing cards, particularly trash for benefit. 

[shMerker]

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.

People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

I know they can choose not to play them. That's why I brought up throne room and golem. Anyway I wasn't suggesting that you would buy rats (actually buy one, gain the rest) just to throw them at your opponent. I was saying that, depending on the situation, pawning them off on another player could be a good way to get rid of them once they've outlived their usefulness.

[CaptainNevada]

It may depend on who got the short end of the Masquerades.  If your opponent did, then sending him a Rat might help him clear the junk you sent to him.  Of course, if you are preying on a weak player passing him a Rat to "help" with clearing out the junk could give him an entirely different problem by which time you've won the game.

I think part of the idea of rats is that they can be used as weapons too. Use Masquerade or Ambassador to hand them over to another player, preferably one who is using Throne Room or Golem and may end up being forced to play them. Or swindle their $4s into Rats.

People say this, but guys, realize you can choose to NOT play the rats. In which case, they're slightly better confusions. And nobody buys CURSES to masq over, let alone these, and as for ambassador - well, gee, if you've already done the curses, have 4 money and a buy to spend on one of these, I guess you can do that, but uh, well, shouldn't you be busy winning the game instead?

I know they can choose not to play them. That's why I brought up throne room and golem. Anyway I wasn't suggesting that you would buy rats (actually buy one, gain the rest) just to throw them at your opponent. I was saying that, depending on the situation, pawning them off on another player could be a good way to get rid of them once they've outlived their usefulness.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

[Insomniac]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

Hey now, Scout+Estate+Vault/secret chamber may just be the best combo out there. </sarcasm>

[werothegreat]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

[GendoIkari]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

I don't know; in a deck without any TFB, buying a rats really seems exactly like buying an Estate. Playing it adds 0 value to your deck, and quite often you would rather just hold in it your hand than play it.

[werothegreat]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

Hey now, Scout+Tunnel+Vault/secret chamber may just be the best combo out there. </not sarcasm>

FTFY

[engineer]

Ok, someone out there is going to know this off the top of their head, probably:

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

Well, we still don't have a consensus on how often Tunnel is worth it, do we? Some people still insist it's worth getting almost all the time, while others (like me) think it's probably worth it less than 30% of the time. I imagine Rats can easily exceed the 30% number. We also still don't know how many TfBs there are going to be among the 26 yet-to-be-revealed Dark Ages cards...

Well sure, but what I meant wasn't so much how often is it a good idea to buy, but rather how often is it not just a completely dead card? Spy / Tunnel is probably a really crappy combo, but I would still count that as a time that Tunnel is a playable card. If there is nothing on the board that has potential to discard, then buying a Tunnel is like buying an Estate. Same with Rats. Rats/Forge may or may not be a good combo, but at least if Forge is on the board, Rats is technically an option.

Well if you consider Spy/Tunnel playable, Rats is always "playable", just like Scout/Estate....

I think his point is that there is no reason to buy rats if there is no other trasher on the table.  Rats are even worse than an estate in that case -- you don't get the 1 VP!

(I still don't consider rats a real trasher because it replaces your trash with rats, which are basically trash unless some other card can trash them.)

[Grujah]

Nah, you guys are missing the beauty of rats.  Rats are not really trashers -- every card that's trashed is replaced with a rat.  But rats do temporarily turn all your trash cards into cantrips, at least until you start to run low on trash targets.  But even if it's only for a couple of shuffles, having cantrips instead of dead cards could be exactly the help you need to get to your real trasher.  And, as a bonus, when you do trash the rats, you get some cards, though you'll probably be drawing dead since most trashers are terminals.

The point is, you obviously need an actual trasher in conjunction with rats, but rats grease the wheels for you: they cycle your deck, putting that trasher in your hand more often.  I think this will allow you to clear garbage from your deck much faster than normal. 

It's not really a cantrip either, because when you play it, you have to trash something. So it decreases your hand size while not decreasing your deck size (though I guess it makes it move faster since the Rats cycle a little). This actually seems pretty horrible on its own. It seems like the point of Rats is to turn all your cheap cards into Rats so you get more out of your other TfB cards. It's just fuel generation. Bishoping a Copper gets +$1 +1 VP. Bishoping a Rats gets you +$1 +3 VP +1 Card. Copper remodels into at best a $2 card, but Rats goes up to $6, while drawing a card. It seems like the plan should be:
1. Buy Rats and TfB card
2. Turn everything into Rats
3. Trash the Rats for good stuff

It's not immediately obvious how fast this is, but since Rats are non-terminal, you can play a lot per turn once you get going, so it's probably good. I'm not sure Apprentice is the best combo, since you have to actually have something you want to draw, and it's going to be hard to buy that without money, since your Rats eat everything. Probably Upgrading or Remodeling cards are going to be the better combos.

This is what I said in prediction thread as well:
"  GIANT TRAP. It sounds fun and cool, but unless you can really get read of them fast and even get something good out of it they dominate your deck and you lose. Their only use will be free, 4$ food for your trash-for-benefits, like Savager, Upgrade, Bishop and the likes."


Well, maybe not only, but main. (Watchtower seems ok too).
Bishop is great, Forge is great, Upgrade is great (non-terminal), Remodel is good, and so are salvager and remake. Aprentice is ok, so is Develop and Expand, and Farmland is.. usable, so is Transmute. Did I miss any?

[engineer]

Bishop is great, Forge is great, Upgrade is great (non-terminal), Remodel is good, and so are salvager and remake. Aprentice is ok, so is Develop and Expand, and Farmland is.. usable, so is Transmute. Did I miss any?

Remake!  Gain 2 $5 cards, and get +2 cards!

[GendoIkari]

the fact that rats costs 4 makes me think that they discovered that rats/rats was too strong an opening... but I have a hard time seeing how that would be a good opening.

Man I'm an idiot... I've realized now that Rats cost $4 instead of $3 because they are a much better card at $4! If they were $3, you would want them a lot less often than you will want them at $4 (because of TFB).

[AJD]

It just occurred to me that the right comparison point for Rats might be Transmute. They've both got this "trash a card, gain another copy of the trasher" thing going on, but Rats has the advantage of being nonterminal, and Transmute has the advantage of being able to give you something other than just more Transmutes. (But since the most plentiful thing you usually want to trash is Copper, it's a useful comparison, I think.) Rats probably comes out looking better because being non-terminal is really useful, and because Transmute's awkward potion cost makes it poor fodder for other trashers, which seems like Rats' big selling point. But I think Transmute's the most similar existing card to Rats, so that might be a handy comparison point for how to think about it.

Transmute : Rats :: Remodel : Upgrade?

[CaptainNevada]

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 

How many TFB cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Rats)?
vs
How many Discarding cards are there (anything that would make you consider buying Tunnel)?

Basically, what I want to know is, if we assume that Rats is only good for the TFB thing, will it be a completely dead Kingdom card more or less often than Tunnel? (Discounting the 2VP instead of 1VP for an Estate in the end-game).

[Insomniac]

It just occurred to me that the right comparison point for Rats might be Transmute. They've both got this "trash a card, gain another copy of the trasher" thing going on, but Rats has the advantage of being nonterminal, and Transmute has the advantage of being able to give you something other than just more Transmutes. (But since the most plentiful thing you usually want to trash is Copper, it's a useful comparison, I think.) Rats probably comes out looking better because being non-terminal is really useful, and because Transmute's awkward potion cost makes it poor fodder for other trashers, which seems like Rats' big selling point. But I think Transmute's the most similar existing card to Rats, so that might be a handy comparison point for how to think about it.

Transmute : Rats :: Remodel : Upgrade?

Ill run out the rats pile with rats, the transmute pile with my buys (eating all non potions with rats), and then Ill transmute all my rats to run out the rats, transmute and duchy piles! </bad dominion player>

[engineer]

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 

Technically, if you use the reaction element of Trader, you don't trash the incoming rat -- you just never gain it, gaining a silver instead.  So you don't get the +1 card for that.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Bishop is great, Forge is great, Upgrade is great (non-terminal), Remodel is good, and so are salvager and remake. Aprentice is ok, so is Develop and Expand, and Farmland is.. usable, so is Transmute. Did I miss any?

Graverobber and Trader possibly.

[tlloyd]

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).

Of course, it might be simpler just to use Trader/Watchtower on those coppers, so I'm not sure Rats is really adding anything here.

I think all the comments so far have assumed - as we usually do - a two-player game. But with three or four players the rat pile could empty quite quickly, and once the rat pile is empty Rats becomes merely a non-terminal trasher. The interesting part will be the strategy about who buys a Rats first, because if only one player does then he likely won't be able to play Rats (without some other trashing card available) without the rats consuming his whole deck.

[clb]

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 

Technically, if you use the reaction element of Trader, you don't trash the incoming rat -- you just never gain it, gaining a silver instead.  So you don't get the +1 card for that.

You forgot your blue dog reference.

[UltimaPenguin]

I don't know; in a deck without any TFB, buying a rats really seems exactly like buying an Estate. Playing it adds 0 value to your deck, and quite often you would rather just hold in it your hand than play it.

I'm not sure. Its a tricky card to evaluate for sure.

So, the first one you buy seems questionable. It's a cantrip, plus you have to trash a card from your hand (hopefully an estate). So the first time you play it, it doesn't do anything meaningful to your hand (estate wasn't helping and if you hadn't bought the rats, you'd have the next card in your hand anyway), and its only impact on your deck is swapping an estate for a Rats, which doesn't seem useful without TFB cards.

But next, consider the possiblity that you draw a hand that would have been EECCC. BUT, instead you've replaced that first estate with a Rats "for free" (didn't spend a buy on it). So now you get to play that Rats and draw a legitimate extra card to your hand. As a side effect, you have to replace the second estate with a Rats, but the point is the initial Rats purchase made the first hand it appeared in no worse, and now actually made this hand better. And if you're getting hit by curses or ruins, this kind of process can continue, giving you a cycling benefit as long as you have junk cards to turn into rats. Plus, its obviously extra good if you're trashing curses, since it actually nets you points. And at some point, sure, you want to stop playing your rats and just treat them as junk in their own right, but hopefully by that point they've already helped you.

I guess the point is that buying cantrips is a waste of a buy, since it doesn't do anything. But a single rats purchase can replace your junk with essentially limited-use cantrips (as soon as they would force you to trash something good they themselves are just junk), which could have a non-negligible and low-risk deck acceleration effect. I'm not sure if this would be helpful with trashing coppers though, since that seems like it would be hurting your deck, but against cursers or looters... maybe it would be worthwhile. Again, its hard to really visualize how helpful or not-helpful any of this would be in practice, but while we're theory-crafting I think there's a case to be made for properly played Rats having a positive impact on some decks even without TFB cards.

Really looking forward to seeing what simulators have to say...

[engineer]

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).  There are probably more examples I can't think of offhand. 

Technically, if you use the reaction element of Trader, you don't trash the incoming rat -- you just never gain it, gaining a silver instead.  So you don't get the +1 card for that.

You forgot your blue dog reference.

I know I'm gonna get roasted for this one...but could somebody explain the blue dog meme to me?

[Thisisnotasmile]

Common Forum References and In-Jokes:

Blue Dog: In this BGG post, DXV attempts to explain the interaction between Ironworks and Trader, using a strange analogy to a blue dog.  Not only does the blue dog confuse the issue, he later changes his mind about the ruling.

[HiveMindEmulator]

I don't know; in a deck without any TFB, buying a rats really seems exactly like buying an Estate. Playing it adds 0 value to your deck, and quite often you would rather just hold in it your hand than play it.

I'm not sure. Its a tricky card to evaluate for sure.

So, the first one you buy seems questionable. It's a cantrip, plus you have to trash a card from your hand (hopefully an estate). So the first time you play it, it doesn't do anything meaningful to your hand (estate wasn't helping and if you hadn't bought the rats, you'd have the next card in your hand anyway), and its only impact on your deck is swapping an estate for a Rats, which doesn't seem useful without TFB cards.

But next, consider the possiblity that you draw a hand that would have been EECCC. BUT, instead you've replaced that first estate with a Rats "for free" (didn't spend a buy on it). So now you get to play that Rats and draw a legitimate extra card to your hand. As a side effect, you have to replace the second estate with a Rats, but the point is the initial Rats purchase made the first hand it appeared in no worse, and now actually made this hand better. And if you're getting hit by curses or ruins, this kind of process can continue, giving you a cycling benefit as long as you have junk cards to turn into rats. Plus, its obviously extra good if you're trashing curses, since it actually nets you points. And at some point, sure, you want to stop playing your rats and just treat them as junk in their own right, but hopefully by that point they've already helped you.

I guess the point is that buying cantrips is a waste of a buy, since it doesn't do anything. But a single rats purchase can replace your junk with essentially limited-use cantrips (as soon as they would force you to trash something good they themselves are just junk), which could have a non-negligible and low-risk deck acceleration effect. I'm not sure if this would be helpful with trashing coppers though, since that seems like it would be hurting your deck, but against cursers or looters... maybe it would be worthwhile. Again, its hard to really visualize how helpful or not-helpful any of this would be in practice, but while we're theory-crafting I think there's a case to be made for properly played Rats having a positive impact on some decks even without TFB cards.

Really looking forward to seeing what simulators have to say...

Yeah, the single-card "warehouse" effect makes it slightly less bad than a Confusion, but that's probably at the same level as the Spy/Tunnel combo. It might get you something useful at some point, but probably not worth adding a dead $4 card most of the time.

[engineer]

I still think it will only be useful with other strong trashers, but it will definitely be useful in those cases, especially when ruins or curses are getting thrown around.  That's my theorycraft and I'm sticking to it.  I think that turning your trash into temporary accelerators will be a big benefit, and as everybody has pointed out, the TFB advantages are enormous.

Besides, this card is so thematically strong, it has to be useful.  It's too cool not to be!

[david707]

I'm starting to think any card that has an effect when trashed (inc Rats) shouldn't be fully judged until shelter is revealed. There is so much in this this set that does something when trashed and you want to trash ruins. At this stage, I'd be really surprised if Shelter didn't trash and I suspect it'll replace starting Estates whenever playing with Dark Aged (possibly the condition will be a looter instead).

[ftl]

Heh. I suspect that the simulators will be quite bad with Dark Ages. There's really a lot of combos that have to be done right. You can't just trash bad cards anymore, you have to know when to trash good cards.

[clb]

Which makes it an incredibly skill-baesd set, with little opportunity to improve outside of playing it tons and a generally good intuition (from having played tons previously).
I'm good with that.

[engineer]

Speaking of shelters...

Does anybody get why 18 shelters make sense?

I mean, if you have a 4-player game, and shelters actually replace the 3 starting estates, you only have 6 shelters left over for the supply.  On the other hand, if shelters replace estates in the deck but not in the supply, then why would you need 18 shelters?

The only explanation I can come up with is that you use 18 provinces in the super-multiball 6-player game which is discussed in Intrigue.  Inductively, if we assume that we get 18 shelters for the same reason, then we must still stuff our actual starting decks with estates.  However, we don't use 18 duchies in the supply, even in 6 player games.  So what gives?

Edit: as a possible answer to my own question, the prevailing theory is that there is no pile of shelters available.  The shelters only replace the starting estates, and we get 18 to support 6-player games.

[clb]

I think there are still 2 options - 1 shelter per person (up to 6) with a 12-card pile, or 3 copies per person (up to 6) with no supply pile.

[GendoIkari]

I think there are still 2 options - 1 shelter per person (up to 6) with a 12-card pile, or 3 copies per person (up to 6) with no supply pile.

It makes so much more sense to me that there is no Supply pile. The fact that there are 50 Ruins basically tells us that it supports 6 player; and the only thing we know about Shelters is that "they replace starting Estates." That sounds like a pretty strong implication that they would replace all 3... no need for an extra supply pile.

[engineer]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

[GendoIkari]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

I did a long time ago... I think the general feel that people have is that it becomes more of a "party game" and less of a "strategy game." Still fun, but not for serious gamers. Do remember that when playing wit 6 people, the game goes until 4 piles run out.

[CaptainNevada]

You're stopping the Rat population from overwhelming your deck, though I suppose Watchtower trashes what you don't want and Trader is a trash for benefit of a sorts (not only the reaction but the regular action makes it a trash for benefit).  Hinterlands and Dark Ages are sort of a ying-yang that was (particularly Feodum thrives on silver which many Hinterlands cards make it easier to get; Trader, Border Village, Embassy, Haggler, Noble Brigand, Jack of All Trades).  There is probably a good combo with Rat / Trader / Feodum allowing you to breed Rats to change into silver to buy Feodums which get more powerful with the more silver you have.

Rats also feeds on enemy cursing attacks (making them less powerful though possibly giving you a Rat problem).

I would actually be interested in the secret history of Rat.  $4 seems to be the right price point as it would be less useful at $3 and more powerful at $5 (particularly with trash for benefit on the board). 

It's not even that simple. On the copper front, Cache gives you some, Ill Gotten Gains can get you some, and Goons engines often result in using the extra buys to get copper.  The copper becomes Rat food.  Trader can turn the Rat you would have gotten into silver and Watchtower can trash the Rat (both giving you the kicker for trashing a Rat).

Of course, it might be simpler just to use Trader/Watchtower on those coppers, so I'm not sure Rats is really adding anything here.

I think all the comments so far have assumed - as we usually do - a two-player game. But with three or four players the rat pile could empty quite quickly, and once the rat pile is empty Rats becomes merely a non-terminal trasher. The interesting part will be the strategy about who buys a Rats first, because if only one player does then he likely won't be able to play Rats (without some other trashing card available) without the rats consuming his whole deck.

[eHalcyon]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Well, then it's 4 piles instead of 3.

Even bad Attacks can become essential in such a big game though.

[Insomniac]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Well, then it's 4 piles instead of 3.

Even bad Attacks can become essential in such a big game though.

Saboteur, anyone?

[eHalcyon]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Well, then it's 4 piles instead of 3.

Even bad Attacks can become essential in such a big game though.

Saboteur, anyone?

Is it supposed to be a counter example, or proving the point?  If even two other players pick up Sab, you might not be able to keep up with the attack. :\

[Insomniac]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Well, then it's 4 piles instead of 3.

Even bad Attacks can become essential in such a big game though.

Saboteur, anyone?

Is it supposed to be a counter example, or proving the point?  If even two other players pick up Sab, you might not be able to keep up with the attack. :\

proving the point, I've played a 6 player game with saboteur...it was disgusting

[Beyond Awesome]

I play 6 player in IRL often because that is the size of our group. Yes, Sab is strong in 6 player. Yes, you often run out piles even though you need to empty out 4 piles. And, no BM is not always prevalent. Sometimes, an engine can take off if other players ignore cards, but that doesn't happen too often. Attacks dominate in 6 player. I would also say things are more random in 6 player, and it isn't as skill dependent as two player. You can be a great player and get screwed over by circumstances beyond your control.

[tlloyd]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Well, then it's 4 piles instead of 3.

Even bad Attacks can become essential in such a big game though.

Saboteur, anyone?

Is it supposed to be a counter example, or proving the point?  If even two other players pick up Sab, you might not be able to keep up with the attack. :\

proving the point, I've played a 6 player game with saboteur...it was disgusting

And swindler can deplete four piles in no time in a six-player game.

[dan11295]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats. As mentioned above, I would not buy this with no other trasher available, particularly one that gives a sizable benefit from trashing, like Apprentice or Salvager. Steward isn't going to cut it. If Chapel is on the board and i need to trash, I will just buy Chapel instead.

[Saucery]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

[CaptainNevada]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

The trick is sustaining a Pillage attack as the card trashes upon use and unless you pump up your opponents hands (Governor, Council Room, Torturer if they take the curse) it only hits their hands once. 

[engineer]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

Well, probably not a wharf engine, because you only usually get a couple of wharfs due to the terminal nature of the card itself.  I think that any engine which results in a very high action density would be ok: if I have two villages, two smithys and (say) a copper in my hand, I still have a chance at a big turn no matter what card you make me drop.  Minion decks would be another example: as long as I have sufficient density to draw 2 minions in my initial 5-card hand, I'll be ok.

I think this attack could lead to a bit of AP, though: if I have two alchemists and a potion in hand, what do you make me discard?  One of the alchemists or the potion?

[werothegreat]

I believe in Pillage we finally have a time where Council Room is strictly better than Margrave. 

[chwhite]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

Well, probably not a wharf engine, because you only usually get a couple of wharfs due to the terminal nature of the card itself.  I think that any engine which results in a very high action density would be ok: if I have two villages, two smithys and (say) a copper in my hand, I still have a chance at a big turn no matter what card you make me drop.  Minion decks would be another example: as long as I have sufficient density to draw 2 minions in my initial 5-card hand, I'll be ok.

I think this attack could lead to a bit of AP, though: if I have two alchemists and a potion in hand, what do you make me discard?  One of the alchemists or the potion?

Double-Tactician would be likely to survive even constant Pillaging relatively unscathed.  I could imagine overbought, dense stacks of Scrying Pool or Hunting Party doing the job too.  Lab-style engines are probably going to have a far easier time of it than +Action/+Card-style engines in general; if one card gives you both draw and +1 Action, then two of them in hand means you won't necessarily be sunk by Pillage.


...Oh, huh.  You know what engine card gives you +Action and can draw lots of cards?  That's right, Scout.  Scout is gonna be boss against Pillage.

[werothegreat]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

Well, probably not a wharf engine, because you only usually get a couple of wharfs due to the terminal nature of the card itself.  I think that any engine which results in a very high action density would be ok: if I have two villages, two smithys and (say) a copper in my hand, I still have a chance at a big turn no matter what card you make me drop.  Minion decks would be another example: as long as I have sufficient density to draw 2 minions in my initial 5-card hand, I'll be ok.

I think this attack could lead to a bit of AP, though: if I have two alchemists and a potion in hand, what do you make me discard?  One of the alchemists or the potion?

Double-Tactician would be likely to survive even constant Pillaging relatively unscathed.  I could imagine overbought, dense stacks of Scrying Pool or Hunting Party doing the job too.  Lab-style engines are probably going to have a far easier time of it than +Action/+Card-style engines in general; if one card gives you both draw and +1 Action, then two of them in hand means you won't necessarily be sunk by Pillage.


...Oh, huh.  You know what engine card gives you +Action and can draw lots of cards?  That's right, Scout.  Scout is gonna be boss against Pillage.

Too bad Dark Ages doesn't have any Action/Victory cards.

[Loschmidt]

Has anybody actually tried dominion with 6 people?  I have no idea what that would be like.  It seems like the game would be over on piles really quickly, at least if anybody was trying to build an engine.  Is BM the dominant strat with 6 people?

Tried it with 5, I would NOT recommend it to a friend. It may have been the fact that we coupled it with the idea that an all attack game would be hilarious. It was back with only dominion + intrigue, and we at least had the kindness to add moat to the mix. With 5 people before your turn you've been militiad, tortured, swindled and witched. Saboteur was actually painful too because that silver it just trashed was most of your bloody economy. My girlfriend won because she had the forethought to open moat/moat/moat/moat untill the pile ran out. <i>My</i> first moat was hit by an early swindler. <i>shudder</i>

[Loschmidt]

Upon seeing Pillage my first thought was, "wow, this card has come a long way",

You can almost see the progression. I bet a targeted discard card was one of the first attacks, it was there with the only +buy market. It was a complete powerhouse so he made it a one-shot. But then no one liked it, "you only get to use it once, whats the point?". So then he made it also gain a gold. That was probably a bit too strong, so now it gains you 2 one-shot golds.

It shows you how hard it is to judge the power of a card by just looking at it. I'm excited to try this one out. Also can't wait to Pillage someone's Pillage

[dondon151]

I believe in Pillage we finally have a time where Council Room is strictly better than Margrave. 

Except there are already a lot of times where CR is strictly better than Margrave...

[ehunt]

I think Rats/Vineyard is probably pretty strong. It's a lot like transmute/vineyard (which is one of the best/only uses of transmute in 2p) - yeah, you're going to be sad sometimes cause you can't play the rat cause your hand is full of vineyards and your potion - but because it's a vineyards game, you're happy to be sad sometimes.

[michaeljb]

1. buy Rats
2. play Rats, gaining more
3. ????
4. PROFIT!!

[jotheonah]

If you could ever sustain a pillage attack (such as with a +buys draw engine), you will completely shut down most decks i think. What type of deck could survive it? Maybe a wharf engine?

Well, probably not a wharf engine, because you only usually get a couple of wharfs due to the terminal nature of the card itself.  I think that any engine which results in a very high action density would be ok: if I have two villages, two smithys and (say) a copper in my hand, I still have a chance at a big turn no matter what card you make me drop.  Minion decks would be another example: as long as I have sufficient density to draw 2 minions in my initial 5-card hand, I'll be ok.

I think this attack could lead to a bit of AP, though: if I have two alchemists and a potion in hand, what do you make me discard?  One of the alchemists or the potion?

It's similar to an Envoy drawing engine, right? My opponent keeps making me discard the best of the 4, but I just keep playing Envoys and it doesn't matter.

[eHalcyon]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

[papaHav]

People keep talking about "rats + another trasher"

Rats doesn't combo with chapel btw... its the same speed as just opening chapel/-

You go rats when you can trash a $4 card for bonus benefit e.g. apprentice bonus damage, or remodel into GM, or reach peddlers really fast then remodel those into plats etc.etc.etc.

[papaHav]

is there some kind of scout joke im not aware of?

[eHalcyon]

is there some kind of scout joke im not aware of?

Scout is one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Players who know this tend to make jokes about how it is mediocre at best; some even suggest that it is terrible!  It's hilarious when newbies take it to heart, and later get crushed by a giant Scout mega-turn engine that buys out Provinces on turn 9.

[werothegreat]

is there some kind of scout joke im not aware of?

Scout is one of the most powerful cards in the game.  Players who know this tend to make jokes about how it is mediocre at best; some even suggest that it is terrible!  It's hilarious when newbies take it to heart, and later get crushed by a giant Scout mega-turn engine that buys out Provinces on turn 9.

Yes, I bought the last Province using the other four Provinces Scout made me draw.  (Because I have Secret Chamber)

Actually, now that I've said that, I'm thinking Donald X has probably made a card that does something like that (without doing the Secret Chamber thing)...

[Loschmidt]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

[werothegreat]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

Maybe Sage, if any.  Poor House or Feodum would be stretching it.

[Beyond Awesome]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

I don't think I've seen a single newbie friendly card in this expansion, yet. Okay, I guess Feodum counts, but it's an alt VP card. That would be like me saying that because this set has a Village, it's newbie friendly. Speaking of Villages, I wonder what kind of Village effect we will get. I'm sure Ruined Village won't be the only Village in the set. I'm also wondering what the Curser will be like. My guess is a curser that gives you the choice to give a curse from the trash pile if a curse is in the pile.

[werothegreat]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

I don't think I've seen a single newbie friendly card in this expansion, yet. Okay, I guess Feodum counts, but it's an alt VP card. That would be like me saying that because this set has a Village, it's newbie friendly. Speaking of Villages, I wonder what kind of Village effect we will get. I'm sure Ruined Village won't be the only Village in the set. I'm also wondering what the Curser will be like. My guess is a curser that gives you the choice to give a curse from the trash pile if a curse is in the pile.

Madman?  Squire?  What more do you need?  Something explicitly called a Village?

[michaeljb]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

I don't think I've seen a single newbie friendly card in this expansion, yet. Okay, I guess Feodum counts, but it's an alt VP card. That would be like me saying that because this set has a Village, it's newbie friendly. Speaking of Villages, I wonder what kind of Village effect we will get. I'm sure Ruined Village won't be the only Village in the set. I'm also wondering what the Curser will be like. My guess is a curser that gives you the choice to give a curse from the trash pile if a curse is in the pile.

Madman?  Squire?  What more do you need?  Something explicitly called a Village?

Well, obviously

[Beyond Awesome]

Rats is a card that a newbie sees and thinks "oh cool a cantrip that multiplies and lets me trash" and it is cool..at first..until you have trashed all your bad cards and have a hand full of Rats.

No way.  Newbies think, "Why in the world would I want to trash Coppers?  That's money!  Why would I want to trash Estates?  Those are points!!"

You're right. Most of these cards are not newbie friendly, this expansion is definitely not coming out when I teach new players.

I don't think I've seen a single newbie friendly card in this expansion, yet. Okay, I guess Feodum counts, but it's an alt VP card. That would be like me saying that because this set has a Village, it's newbie friendly. Speaking of Villages, I wonder what kind of Village effect we will get. I'm sure Ruined Village won't be the only Village in the set. I'm also wondering what the Curser will be like. My guess is a curser that gives you the choice to give a curse from the trash pile if a curse is in the pile.

Madman?  Squire?  What more do you need?  Something explicitly called a Village?

Okay, I will give you Squire. Madman is kind of newbie friendly, especially since it comes from a Workshop variant and most newbies like Workshop.

[Morgrim7]

Pillage looks sooooo cool

[PigFiend]

It's not so hard to imagine Rats playing decently. How about opening Rats/Hermit?
Turn 3: Rat an Estate and gain a Rats. Buy a Conspirator.
Turn 4: Hermit a Rats out of the discard for +1 Card. Gain a Sage. Buy a Sage. (0 cards left in deck for fresh reshuffle.)

Or how about Rats and Jacks as a deck type? Play a Rat and decrease your hand size, then Jack for more cards and trash a Rats for +1 more Card. Your deck might become very dense on Silvers yet very light on Coppers.

Maybe start Rats/(non-terminal)Silver, going big money until you hit $7 for Forge and then being very aggressive with it. Some turns you Forge two Rats for a Province and with the +2 Cards afford a Gold, Duchy, or second Province.

[eHalcyon]

It's not so hard to imagine Rats playing decently. How about opening Rats/Hermit?
Turn 3: Rat an Estate and gain a Rats. Buy a Conspirator.
Turn 4: Hermit a Rats out of the discard for +1 Card. Gain a Sage. Buy a Sage. (0 cards left in deck for fresh reshuffle.)

Or how about Rats and Jacks as a deck type? Play a Rat and decrease your hand size, then Jack for more cards and trash a Rats for +1 more Card. Your deck might become very dense on Silvers yet very light on Coppers.

Maybe start Rats/(non-terminal)Silver, going big money until you hit $7 for Forge and then being very aggressive with it. Some turns you Forge two Rats for a Province and with the +2 Cards afford a Gold, Duchy, or second Province.

I doubt the first plan would work well.  You're just going to get a lot of Rats.

I like the Rats-Jack idea, though I wonder if the Silver gain will outpace the Rats gain.  Hopefully Jack keeps Rats in check, but it's hard to say.  Jack might just draw you back up to a full hand of Rats.  It probably works though.

Forge has been brought up.  Hard to say if it can get going.

[ftl]

is there some kind of scout joke im not aware of?

Yes.

Scout was recently voted the worst $4 card in the latest iteration of Qvist's list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3435.0) , and second-worst in the previous one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1465.0). Some people like scout and have latched on to the joke of talking about it as if it's a super-powerful card; I'm not sure quite where this started, but it did. Hence, you find Robz constantly discussing how all the new Dark Ages cards "combo" with scout, and so on.

[eHalcyon]

is there some kind of scout joke im not aware of?

Yes.

Scout was recently voted the worst $4 card in the latest iteration of Qvist's list (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3435.0) , and second-worst in the previous one (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1465.0). Some people like scout and have latched on to the joke of talking about it as if it's a super-powerful card; I'm not sure quite where this started, but it did. Hence, you find Robz constantly discussing how all the new Dark Ages cards "combo" with scout, and so on.

Oh you, going on with the joke even though I've blown the cover on Scout's amazing power.

Qvist's list is just a very elaborate prank designed to make people underestimate the explosive Scout-enabled engine.  It's so obvious!

[PigFiend]

It's not so hard to imagine Rats playing decently. How about opening Rats/Hermit?
Turn 3: Rat an Estate and gain a Rats. Buy a Conspirator.
Turn 4: Hermit a Rats out of the discard for +1 Card. Gain a Sage. Buy a Sage. (0 cards left in deck for fresh reshuffle.)

I doubt the first plan would work well.  You're just going to get a lot of Rats.

If you draw Rats before or in the same hand as Hermit after reshuffles, you'll have no more than 1 in the following reshuffle. And the Sages would likely keep that Rat population to 1 by finding either piece of Rats or Hermit. Luck might turn against you at some point, but I'm betting such a Conspirator deck would be fast enough to put the game in doubt before that happens.

[eHalcyon]

It's not so hard to imagine Rats playing decently. How about opening Rats/Hermit?
Turn 3: Rat an Estate and gain a Rats. Buy a Conspirator.
Turn 4: Hermit a Rats out of the discard for +1 Card. Gain a Sage. Buy a Sage. (0 cards left in deck for fresh reshuffle.)

I doubt the first plan would work well.  You're just going to get a lot of Rats.

If you draw Rats before or in the same hand as Hermit after reshuffles, you'll have no more than 1 in the following reshuffle. And the Sages would likely keep that Rat population to 1 by finding either piece of Rats or Hermit. Luck might turn against you at some point, but I'm betting such a Conspirator deck would be fast enough to put the game in doubt before that happens.

I'm not sure what you mean to do with Sage and Hermit.  Rats will get in the way of Sage.  Hermit could shoot rats, I guess!  Or do you mean to play Rats only a couple of times and then stop?  Seems strange.

Sage+Conspirator might work better; skip Rats altogether?

[PigFiend]

I'm not sure what you mean to do with Sage and Hermit.  Rats will get in the way of Sage.  Hermit could shoot rats, I guess!  Or do you mean to play Rats only a couple of times and then stop?  Seems strange.
Sage+Conspirator might work better; skip Rats altogether?

The deck ought to be pretty trim, so if a Sage finds a Rats, it's a fair likelihood it's adding it to a hand that has Hermit or is before a hand with Hermit. Rats acts as a non-term trasher that can energize Conspirator in a pinch. Hermit's inability to trash Coppers is thwarted by keeping Rats in check (which also makes the ability read more like +1 Card which should help in reshuffle management). The Workshop effect helps amass Sages faster.
If you stall, lapse Hermit for an endgame Madman. Near endgame, don't be afraid to play two Rats to activate Conspirator.

I'll try this out and report what it's like after a small sample.

[eHalcyon]

I'm not sure what you mean to do with Sage and Hermit.  Rats will get in the way of Sage.  Hermit could shoot rats, I guess!  Or do you mean to play Rats only a couple of times and then stop?  Seems strange.
Sage+Conspirator might work better; skip Rats altogether?

The deck ought to be pretty trim, so if a Sage finds a Rats, it's a fair likelihood it's adding it to a hand that has Hermit or is before a hand with Hermit. Rats acts as a non-term trasher that can energize Conspirator in a pinch. Hermit's inability to trash Coppers is thwarted by keeping Rats in check (which also makes the ability read more like +1 Card which should help in reshuffle management). The Workshop effect helps amass Sages faster.
If you stall, lapse Hermit for an endgame Madman. Near endgame, don't be afraid to play two Rats to activate Conspirator.

I'll try this out and report what it's like after a small sample.

Well, it's an interesting idea for sure.  I still think Sage+Conspirator alone would be better.  Maybe throw in a Hermit too, to clear Estates and amass Sages.  I just don't think it would be necessary to clear the Coppers.  When trying to use Sages, I expect Rats are more detrimental than Copper that gets skipped over.

[CaptainNevada]

Madman?  Squire?  What more do you need?  Something explicitly called a Village?

Shunned Village  (Action) $3
+2 Actions
Gain a Card from the Trash Costing $3 or less.

The idea being they live off the refuse of others.

[joel88s]

The fairly extensive skepticism thus far as to Rats being an effective card makes me think there will almost certainly be other cards in the set that react with them somehow to make them more viable, who knows maybe some mid-late game extermination-for-benefit procedure or something.

One thing I haven't noticed mentioned about Pillage: while the targeted discard is obviously the guts of the attack, the very fact of forcing everyone to reveal their hand could sometimes be really significant too. I know I've heard people at times wishing there was an effective late game card (i.e. not Beaurocrat) that could make others reveal their hands at a key moment. A Pillage at the end could not only impede your opponents from buying that last province, but also show you whether they have any chance of buying it anyway, which would obviously hugely improve your endgame decision making and could be the difference between winning and losing.

[grep]

Cats
$5 - Action
Trash any number of Rats from your hand. For each trashed Rats, +1 card and +1 action.
Any other player may reveal Cats from his hand. Is some of them do, gain Cats.

[joel88s]

So they're letting their Cats out to come mate with yours?! Nice.

[Loschmidt]

Rats is my favorite Dominion card. Now you know that about me. You give your kingdom a rat problem. Sure, you get rid of some garbage, but now you've got Rats, and they don't get rid of themselves. Isn't the solution worse than the problem? Plus, let's not forget, there are twenty Rats, rather than the usual ten. That's right: today, you didn't get the whole story just looking at the pictures. Twenty Rats, even in two-player games. Just chewing your deck to pieces. Well secretly there's probably something you can do with them. Looking over the cards spoiled so far, they seem to be a combo with most of them, what's up with that.

Rats is the card I'm most excited about. And not just because Donald says its his favourite.

One of best parts of Dominion to me is the feel of your deck as the game progresses. Feeling it get heavy and bloated when you play a gardens game. Picking up the thin, light, crisp deck that has been well trimmed. That why I like things like things like sifters and diggers. I still remember back playing the original expansion-less Dominion, and the joy of playing an Adventurer and flipping over card over card digging for those precious treasures. How you physically manipulate and interact your deck corresponds to what kind of deck you're trying to build.

I can't wait for the first time I try to play Rats. I just know its going to be horrible! There are going to be Rats everywhere getting in the way of everything. I'm going to constantly be drawing Rats and getting nowhere and I'll absolutely love it

[eHalcyon]

Cats
$5 - Action
Trash any number of Rats from your hand. For each trashed Rats, +1 card and +1 action.
Any other player may reveal Cats from his hand. Is some of them do, gain Cats.

Hm.  Now I want the Rats to be replaced with Pigeons (which are Rats with wings, anyway).  Then Cats could, instead, be Bolivian Tree Lizards.  When those get out of control, you could introduce Chinese Needle Snakes to your deck.  And if those become a problem, get some Snake-Eating Gorillas.  SEGs can be trashed using Winter.

[HiveMindEmulator]

Cats
$5 - Action
Trash any number of Rats from your hand. For each trashed Rats, +1 card and +1 action.
Any other player may reveal Cats from his hand. Is some of them do, gain Cats.

Hm.  Now I want the Rats to be replaced with Pigeons (which are Rats with wings, anyway).  Then Cats could, instead, be Bolivian Tree Lizards.  When those get out of control, you could introduce Chinese Needle Snakes to your deck.  And if those become a problem, get some Snake-Eating Gorillas.  SEGs can be trashed using Winter.

I can't believe it took 11 pages for this simpsons reference to show up...

[HiveMindEmulator]

Pillage: ...looks like something that's going to be great for Big Money decks playing versus an engine.  Knock out your opponents' key card, and get a one-time cash infusion sure to be good for a Province or two. 

Sorry to quote something from way in the past, but I was too caught up in the Rats discussion to really mention this before. I had exactly the opposite reaction to reading Pillage. I thought (and still think) it will be better for engine vs BM. Engine can play the Pillage every turn, get the money right away, and replace the Pillage. BM can maybe play 2 Pillages? And since your money disappears, you choke way harder when greening.

[PitzerMike]

Coolio. With rats on the board strategies centered around cards from the remodel family might finally be fast enough to compete.

Also I believe I am the first caravan on the forums - at least until I move on.

[axlemn]

I like Rats a lot for the same reasons I like IGG.  But I don't hate Rats because it doesn't seem like it will turn every game into a Duchy rush.

Simply: you don't have to play Rats when you draw it.  And not playing your action is perfectly fine.  If you replaced a curse with a Rats, that's great! 

Here are some cards people missed that combo well with Rats:
Haven
Native Village

Islands isn't the only way to get cards out of your deck, hand, and discard. 

Megaturn strategies that can play all their actions before playing Rats. 

Also Scrying Pool, maybe. 

Can someone figure out how to go from a deck with 1 upgrade and 2 rats to a deck of exactly 10 upgrades next turn?  I'm not sure it's doable, but it seems like it.  I'm going to sleep, though. 

[Loschmidt]

Rules clarification. If you play rats and you reveal a hand of all rats, do you trash a rat?

[Asklepios]

Agree with the rats = tribbles comment. In fact, I recall on the worst card ideas thread someone proposed a tribbles card that was damn similar to rats, in that it self propagated like crazy.

I have to say, without the other cards in this set, it'd be hard to say rats are any good. +1 card just isn't a good enough trash for benefit to play the card with just a plain old trasher, I reckon. Even if you start using trash-for-benefit like Bishop and Apprentice and Trader, I still think you're slowing your tempo too much by committing to rats.

As for mixing it in with cards that have inbuilt trash for benefit, I'm still dubious. Gain the one-shot golds? You've still got to get them in your hand in a deck thats mostly rats. Gain an attack from Squire? Ok, you're attacking now, but you've still slowed yourself more than your opponent. Trash a Feodum? You've spent two $4 buys on gaining three silvers. Trash a Squire to gain a Cultist and then trash the Cultist to draw... more Rats? While you're messing around with this, three piles run out, and your opponent wins on estates.

No, so far, Rats is just a trap, as far as I can tell. Its a worse card than Scout.

Despite being 99% sure, however, there's a nagging voice at the back of my head telling me that Develop / Rats would be awesome...

No, no... it wouldn't.

But would it?

[DStu]

Again back to the rats:

It's discussed enough that they pretty much are no trashers in the sense, as they don't help you to clear up your deck, beside turning other cards into rats, and thus are very sitautional depending on e.g. trash for benefit. So in which situations could they be usefull?

a) Trash for benefit.
b) Watchtower to trash them as they come in.
c) Cursers:
Cursers with no trashing often turn into 3pile ending with Duchies. Spending $4 to turn Curses into Rats will give you maybe 3-5 VPs in the end, for a game on Duchies that can be usefull.
d) Scrying Pool. Actions>Coppers,Estates
e) Library. Actions>Copper, Estates when you draw them with Lib. If there's some way to maybe also get rid of the rats you don't need anymore from your hand (Oasis, Warehouse etc), I could see me preparing my deck for Library with rats.
f) Adventurer, Venture Actions>Copper,Estates.
g) Vineyards. Even if you maybe don't go for the mega-rats gain zillion of rats strategy, but if you gain 3 or 4 rats in the endgame, for Potions and some treasures you don't need anymore.. This could be a endgame move that might happen.  Or you have extra buys for Coppers that you can turn into rats.
h) "when you trash"-cards. I've heard there are some of them in Dark Ages.

I think that are enough potential interactions so that Rats might be usefull on boards that not necessarily have TFB cards...

[ehunt]

Rules clarification. If you play rats and you reveal a hand of all rats, do you trash a rat?

No, I don't think so. You do as much of the card as you can. You can't trash a card that's not a rat, so you don't. The reason the "reveal" line is included in the card is to make cheating impossible (presumably).

[Squidd]

It occurs to me... We already have JoaT, who won't trash treasure. The other trashers we've seen from the new set are Hermit, who won't trash treasure, and Graverobber, who will only trash actions. And maybe in some games that just means you're stuck with your Coppers, but maybe sometimes you decide to risk Rats as a go-between? Or maybe the only other trasher is Swindler, and you decide you'd rather be swindled Rats-for-Rats (plus card) than Curse-for-Copper?

I'm not saying yet that these are good decisions, but they're decisions you might make.

[WanderingWinder]

Pillage: ...looks like something that's going to be great for Big Money decks playing versus an engine.  Knock out your opponents' key card, and get a one-time cash infusion sure to be good for a Province or two. 

Sorry to quote something from way in the past, but I was too caught up in the Rats discussion to really mention this before. I had exactly the opposite reaction to reading Pillage. I thought (and still think) it will be better for engine vs BM. Engine can play the Pillage every turn, get the money right away, and replace the Pillage. BM can maybe play 2 Pillages? And since your money disappears, you choke way harder when greening.

Well, it's a one-shot, so it's not like the engine can play it ALL the time. I agree with you, though, that this will hurt big money quite a bit too. Well, I mean, what does it do to a BM hand? Probably nails either the one action or the best treasure. Now, almost no hand is going to be able to province in the face of that, but you probably grab, like, another support card (silver or another action, whatever), or a duchy or something. Engines, if you can nail that one +actions, then this is probably even a better effect. Or if you can get their only drawing card. But on the whole, I would guess this is somewhat less beneficial, perhaps, except.... Well, BM tends to be less dependent on a single turn than an engine, and engines, because they are slower to get up, are more dependent on the later turns than BM is, so even though pillage hurts your one BM turn more, on average, than your one Engine turn, it might still do more to harm the engine deck. Does that make sense? Also, the spoils are probably a little better for BM, and the using a terminal action with no benefit.... I'm not sure on that bit. But I think, and this might be totally wrong, but I think it's actually roughly balanced between the two, but a touch better for BM.

[jotheonah]

BTW, I think I finally have a name for my Dominion-themed cover band: "Reveal A Hand of All Rats"

[werothegreat]

BTW, I think I finally have a name for my Dominion-themed cover band: "Reveal A Hand of All Rats"

i.e.  "Just Resign Already"

[rinkworks]

One of best parts of Dominion to me is the feel of your deck as the game progresses. Feeling it get heavy and bloated when you play a gardens game. Picking up the thin, light, crisp deck that has been well trimmed. That why I like things like things like sifters and diggers. I still remember back playing the original expansion-less Dominion, and the joy of playing an Adventurer and flipping over card over card digging for those precious treasures. How you physically manipulate and interact your deck corresponds to what kind of deck you're trying to build.

So, so true.  I've often thought that the therapeutic effect of manipulating cards in the way Dominion requires is a large part of what makes it addicting.  The strategic component is larger (especially recently rather than with Base only), or iso wouldn't have been a success.  But it's a large part just the same, and I think that inherent joy gets lost when we focus too much on power.  Good call on Adventurer.  Golem is similarly a joy for me.

[Grujah]

Hmm...

Rats/Remake/IGG?

[Stealth Tomato]

One thing I really like about this set is that it introduces the mechanic of "I don't want to play this card yet, it could help me more later" that takes a lot of players a long time to get. It's a much more intuitive step to go from "I don't want to play Spoils yet, it could help me more on my next shuffle" to "I don't want to play Smithy yet, it will trigger a reshuffle".

[LastFootnote]

One thing I really like about this set is that it introduces the mechanic of "I don't want to play this card yet, it could help me more later" that takes a lot of players a long time to get. It's a much more intuitive step to go from "I don't want to play Spoils yet, it could help me more on my next shuffle" to "I don't want to play Smithy yet, it will trigger a reshuffle".

Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm guessing the frequency of situations in which you don't want to play Spoils is vanishingly small, whereas the frequency of situations in which you don't want to play Smithy is small, but significant. I doubt Spoils is a good teacher of this mechanic.

EDIT: OK, I'll take that back. If you have, say $8 without playing Spoils and Colony is not available, then yeah, save the Spoils. Whoops.

[platykurtic]

Rats/Venture actually sounds really neat. Play rats on your coppers, balancing it so that you have some decent money and a bunch of ventures. Then your ventures are always hitting silver/gold or other ventures and you don't need too many in your hand to reach province level. Definitely a balance though - with 8 unplayable rats, estates, and an increasing number of provinces, what's the right ratio of ventures/treasure?

[zahlman]

I really can't approve of any strategy that is based on turning your starting cards into Rats and then not having a way to trash them for benefit later. If you don't get a benefit beyond the +1 Card of the Rats, then you might as well have used the other trasher on your starting cards directly. If you don't trash them at all, well, you've very quickly... turned them all into Confusions, in effect. Compared to the starting cards, with very few special cases, that's worse for your economy and your immediate point total (if you used them on the Estates).

The Venture idea is actually interesting, if you can get 8 Ventures and not bother with other treasure (except maybe using Silver to help get Venture more often). And yeah, you'd keep the starting Estates this way. Then you get a Province whenever you draw a Venture, and even with basically 10 + # provinces dead cards in your deck, that should be practically guaranteed. It doesn't seem terribly fast, though, and I don't see great tricks for enabling it, either.

[Grujah]

Rats' synergizer:

Hivemind
$6 Victory
Worth 1VP per 2 copies of card that you have most in your deck.

(or, "At the end of the game, name a card. Worth 1VP per 2 copies of the card in your deck").

This was in game, at one point, IIRC.

[PigFiend]

I ran a handful of tests pre-Shelter reveal. Each was a solitaire mini-game of small kingdoms and to a 12 turn limit in order to get a microcosm view of some strategies. Part of the algorithm was greening duchies in turns 11 and 12 (when falling short of Province).

I tried five games of a Rats/Hermit opener, with the intent to pick up Conspirators and Sages, the latter largely via Hermit. The first game was ultra smooth, Hermit keeping the Rat population to 1. The trash pile was full of Rats, Coppers, and Estates. It achieved 3 Provinces and looked like it would keep grabbing one a turn.
The following results were mixed. Inside the small sampling, there were two 2 Copper turn 3s. All in all, it was not so great, but the inclusion of Sage was probably a mistake. I did it to add more DA flavour, but it's really cost for cost as good a sifter as Hunting Party or Golem, so trashing was made pretty irrelevant. The initiative to run a Rats/Hermit test was really the notion that your deck size would seldom increase; each two turns you'd have only 1 card left in your deck. (Of course, Sage makes shuffle control difficult, so another test might be in order with a different strategy).

For a control, I played a game starting Sage/Conspirator with no Rats. It collected 3 Provinces and a Duchy (and had all 3 Estates) though the game might have been anomalous, doing it more with Golds than powered Conspirators. I hit $6 turn 3 and often afterward.

Next was a Conspirator/Hermit combo... no Rats, Hermit to grab Sages. It hit 3 Provinces by the end, and it felt like it'd be consistent.

I tried a couple games with Forge and Laboratory available, starting Rats/Silver. The first game was stagnant, getting $4 in turns 3 and 4, Rats coming up in the 5th turn. I gave it a redo, added a Conspirator to the mix, and it smoked! A turn 6 purchase of Forge powered it to 4 Provinces by the end of turn 12 though not much else in deck besides a couple Rats, a Copper, and a Silver (and enough $ on the 12th turn to buy another Silver.) I think this was darned lucky, but it was interesting to see.

Lastly, I varied it up, going Remodel/Village with Rats to trim Coppers. The goal here was to instead see how many Grand Markets could be gained by turn 12. The first attempt was a disaster, Remodel coming turn 5. I still managed to get 3 GMs. The second was much more efficient, getting 4 GMs.

EDIT: Emboldened openers

[zahlman]

Rats' synergizer:

Hivemind
$6 Victory
Worth 1VP per 2 copies of card that you have most in your deck.

(or, "At the end of the game, name a card. Worth 1VP per 2 copies of the card in your deck").

This was in game, at one point, IIRC.

That's fine. You can always make a fan card.

You know, emulate it.

[Loschmidt]

One of best parts of Dominion to me is the feel of your deck as the game progresses. Feeling it get heavy and bloated when you play a gardens game. Picking up the thin, light, crisp deck that has been well trimmed. That why I like things like things like sifters and diggers. I still remember back playing the original expansion-less Dominion, and the joy of playing an Adventurer and flipping over card over card digging for those precious treasures. How you physically manipulate and interact your deck corresponds to what kind of deck you're trying to build.

So, so true.  I've often thought that the therapeutic effect of manipulating cards in the way Dominion requires is a large part of what makes it addicting.  The strategic component is larger (especially recently rather than with Base only), or iso wouldn't have been a success.  But it's a large part just the same, and I think that inherent joy gets lost when we focus too much on power.  Good call on Adventurer.  Golem is similarly a joy for me.

Obviously the strategic part of the game is enormous or this site wouldn't be so popular And I think the only reason that i ever get any work done is that Iso just isn't as satisfying as playing dominion in person.

Golem is such a joy, digging away industriously to find my actions. And I imagine i'm gonna like Sage too, finding me something nice in a ruins clogged deck. I think Graverobber has the potential to be really fun in this sense too. Sometimes the trash pile is huge and has goodies floating in it, now you get the joy of sifting through and taking something nice.

Lets never forget that Dominion is fun

[Loschmidt]

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

[AJD]

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)

[Loschmidt]

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know ). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

[eHalcyon]

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know ). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

I prefer using Upgrade to turn Estates into Silver.

[AJD]

Wait a minute....Rats is a remodel variant.

It's a cantrip that will remodel any (non-Rats) card into a Rats.

This seems simpler in my head than self propogating cantrip, trasher, gainer thingy.

<a href="http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=3909.msg81811;topicseen#msg81811">Back here</a> I suggested that Rats is sort of a Transmute variant, and since Transmute is a Remodel variant, I agree with you. (I think roughly Rats:Transmute :: Upgrade:Remodel.)

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

True true. It's certainly not quite perfect. What I was thinking was that in each case the terminal gives you a little more flexibility in what you gain ('costing up to' vs. 'costing exactly'; 'Transmute, Duchy, or Gold' vs. 'Rats only')

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know ). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

Yeah, I agree with that—Rats is definitely the more basic implementation of the concept. (Kind of like how I described Mine as an "Expand variant" the other day.)

[Loschmidt]

That is a good point. I like the Upgrade:Remodel comparison, but i don't think its quite perfect. People love using Upgrade as a cantrip copper trasher, whereas all the other cards don't let you get away without gaining something.

If we just reorganise based on abilites rather than chronology I'd argue that Transmute is a Rats variant (semantics I know ). It seems a more specialsed case self-gainer, whereas Rats is now the definitive self-gainer.

I prefer using Upgrade to turn Estates into Silver.

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

True true. It's certainly not quite perfect. What I was thinking was that in each case the terminal gives you a little more flexibility in what you gain ('costing up to' vs. 'costing exactly'; 'Transmute, Duchy, or Gold' vs. 'Rats only')

Its a good comparison. I was just being pedantic. It made me think about the big difference between upgrade and remodel and at the moment i'm sitting here working on a classifcation system for trashers/remodels/gainers and cards that fit into multiple catergories (like develop). I'll have to make a diagram and post it

[eHalcyon]

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

[Loschmidt]

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6

[eHalcyon]

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6

No, because it can still happen on the last turn in 2p!

[LastFootnote]

So I played a few games with some other cards proxying for the Dark Ages cards, and if there's one thing I've learned it's that Rats are really hard to manage. It's so, so tempting to play a Rats. "I want to draw my next card and I also have a card in my hand that I wouldn't mind trashing. Surely one more Rats in my deck can't hurt!" Oh yes, yes it can.

[Loschmidt]

My argument was that cards in the "Remodel" family don't let you end up with less cards, you're forced to gain something. Card in the "Upgrade" family (eg. remake) can either be net neutral or lose you a card/s. They're more flexible in that regard.

Technically, Rats will let you end up with less cards once Rats are piled out.  Transmute is similar if the Gold/Duchy/Transmute pile is gone when you Transmute the respective piles.

It can even happen with Remodel, though it would be really rare.  In a Kingdom where there are no $1 cards and Estate is the only $2, remodel a Curse or Copper when Curse, Copper and Estate piles are all empty.  Can happen in bigger games where the rule is 4 piles to end, or it could happen in a smaller game on the very last turn.

Yay edge cases!

Haha, you're right. A fantastic edge case though. We can ignore that one by assuming that all real dominion players never play with 5 or 6

No, because it can still happen on the last turn in 2p!

! Of course it can. Even more edge. I love dominion fans, can't sneak anything past them

[Aeek]

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

[kn1tt3r]

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

This sounds inherently impossible.

[jotheonah]

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

Perhaps what was meant was "Consider a set of Dark Ages cards with on-trash abilities and the only trasher is rats"

[Aeek]

Consider a set of trash-for-benefits cards and the only trasher is Rats.

Perhaps what was meant was "Consider a set of Dark Ages cards with on-trash abilities and the only trasher is rats"

Well spotted, that is indeed what I meant. Not sure if Cultists would make it better or worse.

[axlemn]

I think I was unclear when I said that megaturn decks are great places for a few rats.  If you play all your other cards, don't rely on money, and haven't bought VP yet, when you have 2 Rats in hand, you can immediately wipe out a pile. 

Sounds like such a play might help give double Tactician a bit more strength to try to 3-pile.