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Author Topic: Grand Market  (Read 14147 times)

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michaeljb

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Grand Market
« on: July 17, 2011, 02:13:43 pm »
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2-parter:

1) In a solitaire game, buy a Grand Market on Turn 3, without using Vault.
I've spent a good amount of time thinking about this, and I can only think of one solution so far.

2) In a 3p (or more) game, buy a Grand Market on Turn 3, without using Vault or Masquerade.
The solitaire solution works here, but the solution I have in mind does not work for 1 or 2 players.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 02:19:32 pm by michaeljb »
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kn1tt3r

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 02:21:07 pm »
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1 and 2) Open Silver/Baron and draw them together with an estate on turn 3.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2011, 02:21:43 pm »
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1) Contraband/Secret Chamber
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michaeljb

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2011, 02:29:50 pm »
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1 and 2) Open Silver/Baron and draw them together with an estate on turn 3.
That's the solution I thought of for (1), but I'm looking for a different solution for (2). I edited that into the main post, but that might have happened after you saw it and replied.

1) Contraband/Secret Chamber
Cool cool, there is a solution I could not find. :)

The multiplayer solution is definitely more complicated than these 2, and involves an opening no one would really go for.
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ehunt

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2011, 02:37:36 pm »
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both opponents play council room and you have a secret chamber.

or, one of them attacks you instead, and you have a horse traders



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michaeljb

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #5 on: July 17, 2011, 02:45:15 pm »
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both opponents play council room and you have a secret chamber.

or, one of them attacks you instead, and you have a horse traders


That's a good one, but the solution I have in mind is quite a bit less friendly. Plus, if you had Lab+Secret Chamber, only one opponent Council Room need to be played, and then it pretty much works in 2p. So it's another solution I hadn't thought of, but mine can't be tweaked to work in 2p so easily.

Horse Traders gives you $3, where do you get the other $3?
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ehunt

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #6 on: July 17, 2011, 02:50:58 pm »
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The ht solution was an addendum to the other one; that is, you open ht sc and get cr'd and, say, sea hagged
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michaeljb

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #7 on: July 17, 2011, 02:55:15 pm »
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The ht solution was an addendum to the other one; that is, you open ht sc and get cr'd and, say, sea hagged
Oh, I got it now. I misunderstood at first, I thought you were saying you would play the Horse Traders for +$3, rather than use it only for the reactionary draw to get Secret Chamber to $6. Clever, but still not what I'm looking for.
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Elyv

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2011, 03:15:07 pm »
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2) Going second, open Fishing Village/watchtower. Opponent opens ambassador/secret chamber. Turn 3, opponent ambassadors his secret chamber, watchtower it to the top of your deck. On your turn, play fv, watchtower, then sc.

Also works in a 2p game, though.

Edit: some more solutions: 3p+: Open tribute/nothing, hit copper/silver from both opponents.

2p: Open tribute/secret chamber, hit great hall/island + any other green or treasure, then secret chamber.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 03:42:21 pm by Elyv »
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ARTjoMS

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2011, 04:50:52 pm »
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There are some variations with mining village.
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Buttons

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2011, 11:15:38 pm »
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Another: in a 3-player game, your opponents open Estate-Duchy and Great Hall-Gardens, while you open Trade Route-Silver.
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michaeljb

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2011, 12:50:08 am »
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So turns out there are quite a few solutions I hadn't come across  ::)

@Elyv: In your solution, it looks like you have Tribute interacting with all opponents, but it only interacts with the opponent to your left, so only the solution you listed for 2p works (but of course it will work for any number of players)

@ARTjoMS: With Mining Village, I know Secret Chamber would work, but I'm not seeing any other variations. Am I missing something here as well?

Here's a hint for the 3p solution I thought of...you have to go third, and one of your opening buys is a Menagerie. This solution has no friendly interaction (help from Masquerade/Ambassador/Council Room/Trade Route/etc).
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Elyv

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2011, 12:57:45 am »
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@Elyv: In your solution, it looks like you have Tribute interacting with all opponents, but it only interacts with the opponent to your left, so only the solution you listed for 2p works (but of course it will work for any number of players)
Oops, I've never actually played with Tribute in a 3+ player game.

Quote
@ARTjoMS: With Mining Village, I know Secret Chamber would work, but I'm not seeing any other variations. Am I missing something here as well?
It can replace FV in my first solution and it can replace silver in Buttons' solution, if nothing else.
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ehunt

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2011, 01:01:25 am »
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Good hint!


open secret chamber menagerie. Turn three draw copper copper estate sc menagerie. Both opponents play sea hag; when the second does, use sc to make your hand

Copper estate curse sc menagerie. Reveal menagerie and discard six to the secret chamber.
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Anon79

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2011, 02:08:25 am »
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Why is it Contraband            gets mentioned, but not Quarry                ?
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Davio

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2011, 05:32:52 am »
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Opening Quarry/Secret Chamber and drawing them with whatever works.
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lefaiison

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2011, 01:36:26 pm »
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Open Trade Route + Silver / Quarry.

Opponents buy Island/Garden/Great Hall/Estate making your Trade Route worth $4.
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RobF

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 02:11:57 pm »
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Open Trade Route + Silver / Quarry.

Opponents buy Island/Garden/Great Hall/Estate making your Trade Route worth $4.

I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Trade Route / Quarry, going last.  Let your many other opponents all 8 other special VP cards (Duke, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Great Hall, Harem, Island, Nobles, and Vineyard), together with the 3 regular ones (Esate, Duchy, Province), making your TR worth $11 - plenty with only 2 buys.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 02:40:00 pm »
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I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Trade Route / Quarry, going last.  Let your many other opponents all 8 other special VP cards (Duke, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Great Hall, Harem, Island, Nobles, and Vineyard), together with the 3 regular ones (Esate, Duchy, Province), making your TR worth $11 - plenty with only 2 buys.

Okay, I think this is the ultimate.  It requires a 6 player game.


The kingdom is:
Great Hall
Island
Gardens
Duke
Fairgrounds
Harem
Nobles
Throne Room
Trade Route
Grand Market

Player 1 opens: Gardens/Trade Route                                   (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 2 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route                             (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 3 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route                             (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 4 opens: Island/Great Hall                                         (Trade Route worth $3)
Player 5 opens: Duchy/Estate                                             (Trade Route worth $5)
Player 6 opens: Duke/Nothing                                              (Trade Route worth $6)

Turn 3:
P1 plays Trade Route and buys Fairgrounds                            (Trade Route worth $7)
P2 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys Nobles/Harem     (Trade Route worth $9)
P3 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys 3 Grand Markets

theory

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 03:14:45 pm »
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That is ultra-win.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 04:15:24 pm »
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If I lift the Masquerade restriction from the OP, I can get 4 Grand Markets on Turn 3 in a 5 player game.

I can also get 5 Grand Markets on turn 3 in a 6 player game.

It is really close on being able to get 6 in a 6 player game, but it just isn't quite working out.  I think it might still be possible.

I am going to refrain from posting these two for now and see if anyone else wants to try first.

Edit: Okay I can do 6 Grand Markets in a 6 player game, but it requires an 1113 card kingdom set.  Without that little rule tweak I don't think it is possible.  It is almost too perfect how a few of the turns workout in this solution.   I'll work on writing these up at some point and post them after a while.

Edit 2: I just realized I actually used 13 cards in that kingdom.  Also, I may have used more than 10 in the 5 Grand Market 6 player game. Nope, that one is good.  It actually only needs 9 specific kingdom cards.

Edit 3:  I can't keep my crap straight.  The 5 player game that buys 4 Grand Markets does need 10 specific kingdom cards.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 06:10:21 pm by Deadlock39 »
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michaeljb

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 04:28:54 pm »
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ehunt got the solution I was thinking of! When I said no Masquerade, what I should have said was no helpful interaction at all (like Trade Route or Council Room), but that's ok, because these other solutions are awesome.

Why is it Contraband            gets mentioned, but not Quarry                ?
Because you hadn't mentioned it yet, I suppose. :)

@Deadlock39: That Trade Route solution is awesome. Without thinking about it much, does your Masquerade solution involve passing Quarries and Talismans? (Talismen?)
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RobF

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2011, 04:50:34 pm »
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I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Okay, I think this is the ultimate.  It requires a 6 player game.

P3 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys 3 Grand Markets

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2011, 05:02:25 pm »
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@Deadlock39: That Trade Route solution is awesome. Without thinking about it much, does your Masquerade solution involve passing Quarries and Talismans? (Talismen?)

It does not, but I think that is a working alternate solution, and I think it might make 6 possible without the 13 (just realized it was 13 and not 11) card kingdom.  I am also thinking there might be a way to get all the way up to 8, but I would have to work it out.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 05:05:37 pm by Deadlock39 »
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Deadlock39

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Re: Grand Market
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2011, 05:26:18 pm »
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Looks like I had too much tunnel vision.  If you use the cards mentioned by michaeljb with my 5 player solution, you can get 6 Grand Markets.  It requires one additional tweak because I only had one open spot in the kingdom.

Edit: I actually needed all 10 kingdom cards for that solution, so I don't think you can do the solution that gets 6 with less than 11.  There is an alternate solution that gets 4 with those cards.

I will still need to post my 6 player solution that doesn't use those two cards because it is cool.  (Also, by a literal interpretation of the original rules, Talisman isn't allowed because he said "buy" and you don't actually buy the extra cards you get with it.

Edit: With those cards I can also push my 6 player solution up to 8 Grand Markets.  (It also bumps the required kingdom cards further past the correct rules from 13 to 15.)
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 06:13:35 pm by Deadlock39 »
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