Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[michaeljb]

2-parter:

1) In a solitaire game, buy a Grand Market on Turn 3, without using Vault.
I've spent a good amount of time thinking about this, and I can only think of one solution so far.

2) In a 3p (or more) game, buy a Grand Market on Turn 3, without using Vault or Masquerade.
The solitaire solution works here, but the solution I have in mind does not work for 1 or 2 players.

[kn1tt3r]

1 and 2) Open Silver/Baron and draw them together with an estate on turn 3.

[Thisisnotasmile]

1) Contraband/Secret Chamber

[michaeljb]

1 and 2) Open Silver/Baron and draw them together with an estate on turn 3.

That's the solution I thought of for (1), but I'm looking for a different solution for (2). I edited that into the main post, but that might have happened after you saw it and replied.

1) Contraband/Secret Chamber

Cool cool, there is a solution I could not find.

The multiplayer solution is definitely more complicated than these 2, and involves an opening no one would really go for.

[ehunt]

both opponents play council room and you have a secret chamber.

or, one of them attacks you instead, and you have a horse traders

[michaeljb]

both opponents play council room and you have a secret chamber.

or, one of them attacks you instead, and you have a horse traders

That's a good one, but the solution I have in mind is quite a bit less friendly. Plus, if you had Lab+Secret Chamber, only one opponent Council Room need to be played, and then it pretty much works in 2p. So it's another solution I hadn't thought of, but mine can't be tweaked to work in 2p so easily.

Horse Traders gives you $3, where do you get the other $3?

[ehunt]

The ht solution was an addendum to the other one; that is, you open ht sc and get cr'd and, say, sea hagged

[michaeljb]

The ht solution was an addendum to the other one; that is, you open ht sc and get cr'd and, say, sea hagged

Oh, I got it now. I misunderstood at first, I thought you were saying you would play the Horse Traders for +$3, rather than use it only for the reactionary draw to get Secret Chamber to $6. Clever, but still not what I'm looking for.

[Elyv]

2) Going second, open Fishing Village/watchtower. Opponent opens ambassador/secret chamber. Turn 3, opponent ambassadors his secret chamber, watchtower it to the top of your deck. On your turn, play fv, watchtower, then sc.

Also works in a 2p game, though.

Edit: some more solutions: 3p+: Open tribute/nothing, hit copper/silver from both opponents.

2p: Open tribute/secret chamber, hit great hall/island + any other green or treasure, then secret chamber.

[ARTjoMS]

There are some variations with mining village.

[Buttons]

Another: in a 3-player game, your opponents open Estate-Duchy and Great Hall-Gardens, while you open Trade Route-Silver.

[michaeljb]

So turns out there are quite a few solutions I hadn't come across 

@Elyv: In your solution, it looks like you have Tribute interacting with all opponents, but it only interacts with the opponent to your left, so only the solution you listed for 2p works (but of course it will work for any number of players)

@ARTjoMS: With Mining Village, I know Secret Chamber would work, but I'm not seeing any other variations. Am I missing something here as well?

Here's a hint for the 3p solution I thought of...you have to go third, and one of your opening buys is a Menagerie. This solution has no friendly interaction (help from Masquerade/Ambassador/Council Room/Trade Route/etc).

[Elyv]

@Elyv: In your solution, it looks like you have Tribute interacting with all opponents, but it only interacts with the opponent to your left, so only the solution you listed for 2p works (but of course it will work for any number of players)

Oops, I've never actually played with Tribute in a 3+ player game.

@ARTjoMS: With Mining Village, I know Secret Chamber would work, but I'm not seeing any other variations. Am I missing something here as well?

It can replace FV in my first solution and it can replace silver in Buttons' solution, if nothing else.

[ehunt]

Good hint!


open secret chamber menagerie. Turn three draw copper copper estate sc menagerie. Both opponents play sea hag; when the second does, use sc to make your hand

Copper estate curse sc menagerie. Reveal menagerie and discard six to the secret chamber.

[Anon79]

Why is it Contraband            gets mentioned, but not Quarry                ?

[Davio]

Opening Quarry/Secret Chamber and drawing them with whatever works.

[lefaiison]

Open Trade Route + Silver / Quarry.

Opponents buy Island/Garden/Great Hall/Estate making your Trade Route worth $4.

[RobF]

Open Trade Route + Silver / Quarry.

Opponents buy Island/Garden/Great Hall/Estate making your Trade Route worth $4.

I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Trade Route / Quarry, going last.  Let your many other opponents all 8 other special VP cards (Duke, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Great Hall, Harem, Island, Nobles, and Vineyard), together with the 3 regular ones (Esate, Duchy, Province), making your TR worth $11 - plenty with only 2 buys.

[Deadlock39]

I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Trade Route / Quarry, going last.  Let your many other opponents all 8 other special VP cards (Duke, Fairgrounds, Gardens, Great Hall, Harem, Island, Nobles, and Vineyard), together with the 3 regular ones (Esate, Duchy, Province), making your TR worth $11 - plenty with only 2 buys.

Okay, I think this is the ultimate.  It requires a 6 player game.


The kingdom is:
Great Hall
Island
Gardens
Duke
Fairgrounds
Harem
Nobles
Throne Room
Trade Route
Grand Market

Player 1 opens: Gardens/Trade Route                                   (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 2 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route                             (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 3 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route                             (Trade Route worth $1)
Player 4 opens: Island/Great Hall                                         (Trade Route worth $3)
Player 5 opens: Duchy/Estate                                             (Trade Route worth $5)
Player 6 opens: Duke/Nothing                                              (Trade Route worth $6)

Turn 3:
P1 plays Trade Route and buys Fairgrounds                            (Trade Route worth $7)
P2 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys Nobles/Harem     (Trade Route worth $9)
P3 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys 3 Grand Markets

[theory]

That is ultra-win.

[Deadlock39]

If I lift the Masquerade restriction from the OP, I can get 4 Grand Markets on Turn 3 in a 5 player game.

I can also get 5 Grand Markets on turn 3 in a 6 player game.

It is really close on being able to get 6 in a 6 player game, but it just isn't quite working out.  I think it might still be possible.

I am going to refrain from posting these two for now and see if anyone else wants to try first.

Edit: Okay I can do 6 Grand Markets in a 6 player game, but it requires an 1113 card kingdom set.  Without that little rule tweak I don't think it is possible.  It is almost too perfect how a few of the turns workout in this solution.   I'll work on writing these up at some point and post them after a while.

Edit 2: I just realized I actually used 13 cards in that kingdom.  Also, I may have used more than 10 in the 5 Grand Market 6 player game. Nope, that one is good.  It actually only needs 9 specific kingdom cards.

Edit 3:  I can't keep my crap straight.  The 5 player game that buys 4 Grand Markets does need 10 specific kingdom cards.

[michaeljb]

ehunt got the solution I was thinking of! When I said no Masquerade, what I should have said was no helpful interaction at all (like Trade Route or Council Room), but that's ok, because these other solutions are awesome.

Why is it Contraband            gets mentioned, but not Quarry                ?

Because you hadn't mentioned it yet, I suppose.

@Deadlock39: That Trade Route solution is awesome. Without thinking about it much, does your Masquerade solution involve passing Quarries and Talismans? (Talismen?)

[RobF]

I see you one GM and raise you another in 3+ player:

Okay, I think this is the ultimate.  It requires a 6 player game.

P3 plays Throne Room->Trade Route and buys 3 Grand Markets

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.

[Deadlock39]

@Deadlock39: That Trade Route solution is awesome. Without thinking about it much, does your Masquerade solution involve passing Quarries and Talismans? (Talismen?)

It does not, but I think that is a working alternate solution, and I think it might make 6 possible without the 13 (just realized it was 13 and not 11) card kingdom.  I am also thinking there might be a way to get all the way up to 8, but I would have to work it out.

[Deadlock39]

Looks like I had too much tunnel vision.  If you use the cards mentioned by michaeljb with my 5 player solution, you can get 6 Grand Markets.  It requires one additional tweak because I only had one open spot in the kingdom.

Edit: I actually needed all 10 kingdom cards for that solution, so I don't think you can do the solution that gets 6 with less than 11.  There is an alternate solution that gets 4 with those cards.

I will still need to post my 6 player solution that doesn't use those two cards because it is cool.  (Also, by a literal interpretation of the original rules, Talisman isn't allowed because he said "buy" and you don't actually buy the extra cards you get with it.

Edit: With those cards I can also push my 6 player solution up to 8 Grand Markets.  (It also bumps the required kingdom cards further past the correct rules from 13 to 15.)

[Deadlock39]

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.

I don't think the Black market can help out here.  I don't think there would be Trade Route tokens on victory cards in the BM deck, and you can't get Kingdom cards out of the BM until turn 3 when it is too late.

[RobF]

If you add Black Market to get the full 12 green cards into play, you can afford the 4th GM in multiplayer but I don't know if you can get 4 buys though.

I don't think the Black market can help out here.  I don't think there would be Trade Route tokens on victory cards in the BM deck, and you can't get Kingdom cards out of the BM until turn 3 when it is too late.

Hmm, seems you're right - Isotropic at least doesn't increase the TR count for BM buys.  In a multiplayer game, you could get the Kingdom cards out on an earlier person's turn 3 in time for your turn 3 later on.

[Deadlock39]

Hmm, seems you're right - Isotropic at least doesn't increase the TR count for BM buys.  In a multiplayer game, you could get the Kingdom cards out on an earlier person's turn 3 in time for your turn 3 later on.

You could get them on a previous players turn three, but they would be in their discard, and you wouldn't be able to get them even though Masquerade.  I am pretty sure there isn't anyway to get card into the Grand Market players hand even if you Watchtower-ed it because it would always be one hand behind on the Masquerade (and I am pretty sure there is no good solution where the GM buyer plays Masq).

Also, most of the kingdom cards are required in multiples, so Black Market wouldn't be good enough anyway.

I do have my 5 player 4 Grand Market buy solution written up, so I will try to post it sometime tomorrow.

[Deadlock39]

I think I might be the only one still interested here, but I am having fun, so no harm there I suppose.

Before I started throwing solutions up I just wanted to see if anyone thought any of these would be worth a blog post.  I have had a lot of fun with these, and think it is complicated enough and interesting enough to put out there, but I don't know if anyone agrees, or if Theory even has time to deal with puzzle responses right now.

Here is a long list of puzzles/solutions I have found:
One player gains 6 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 4 player game.
One player gains 8 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game. 
(I think michaeljb may have come up with these first two before me, but I was too focused on the method I was using and thought these would take more than 10 Kingdom cards.)
One player buys (no direct gains) 4 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 5 player game.
 
If you allow more than 10 Kingdom cards you can also do:
One player gains 9 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game.
One player buys (no direct gains) 6 Grand Markets on turn 3 of a 6 player game.

I have yet to find a way to pull off gaining all 10 without exceeding 6 players.

Again, I just thought I would see what people think.  If anyone thinks it is worth a post, I can send solutions to an Admin, and if not, I'll just post the crazy Grand Market buying up here.

[Elyv]

I would love to see all the answers, but I don't really care whether or not they go on the blog.

[LetsGame]

Do these two cards combine? If so, here's a solution for solo:
Quarry/Workshop

[shark_bait]

Do these two cards combine? If so, here's a solution for solo:
Quarry/Workshop

Sorry, they don't.  You play your workshop in your action phase, thus before quarries effect goes into play.  However, if you played a black market, you could play a quarry during your action phase, then play workshop and gain a grand market.  This required the use of a village though.

[michaeljb]

(I think michaeljb may have come up with these first two before me, but I was too focused on the method I was using and thought these would take more than 10 Kingdom cards.)

Actually, nope. When you mentioned Masquerade and a large number of players Quarry and Talisman were jus the first cards that came to mind, but I haven't done any more work on maximizing number of Grand Markets on Turn 3.

To cover a couple things that have been pointed out in regards to the "original rules" of the puzzle, I was really just looking at ways to buy a Grand Market with no friendly interaction from other players (of course my Menagerie solution requires both players to play Sea Hag--or at least the first plays Sea Hag then the second plays an attack card that won't mess with your hand size--so that is sort of helpful interaction but not friendly in the same sense as buffing the Trade Route mat or Masquerading you useful cards).

I'm definitely a fan of the turn the discussion has taken towards getting gaining a whole bunch of GMs on Turn 3, regardless of helpful interaction--that's just awesome! So don't worry, you're not still the only one interested. I might even try to work on my own solutions now...

[michaeljb]

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game 

[Deadlock39]

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game 

Hmmm, well I am still stumped on that at this point.  Is this a solution with more than 10 Kingdom cards, or no?

[michaeljb]

I just got one player gaining all 10 Grand Markets on Turn 3 of a 6 player game 

Hmmm, well I am still stumped on that at this point.  Is this a solution with more than 10 Kingdom cards, or no?

No. In fact, it does not need even 10 Kingdom cards. I can post the exact number if you'd like.

[Deadlock39]

I think I just have to be on the wrong path because I can't make it work.

With 6 players, I can get 6 cards into the 6th players 3rd turn, 5 of which can cost up to $4, and one can only be up to $3.  If I could find a way around that $3 card to make it $4 I have a solution, but I am not seeing a way to do that.

I know I need +4(5) buys and 1 Talisman, or 3/2, 2/3, 1/4.  However, I also need enough money to buy 5, 4, 3 or 2 Grand Markets.  Basically, every card I use has to either be a Talisman or give a +buy except one, which only leaves me one slot for a Quarry, but that leaves the GMs at $4 (unless I Bridge them, but that isn't getting me there either), and I haven't generated nearly enough coins to buy them.

I guess my main curiosity would be if you are using more than 6 cards, or if you are using 6 $4 cards, because that would mean I am missing something from my main setup, or it is completely wrong.  Also, if you are pulling any crazy shenanigans like what went on in the "buy all the Colonies on turn 5" puzzle, feel free to just post the solution because I am not interested in going there. :-)

[michaeljb]

In my solution Player 6 plays 1 Action card, then has 6 cards in hand, 5 of which cost $4. You need only one slot for Quarry.* My Kingdom requires 6 cards--well, 5 and Grand Market--4 of which cost $4 or less. As a final hint, something you were pretty sure of in an earlier post is wrong.

*it's a spoiler within a spoiler!

[lefaiison]

I'll take a stab at it...


You are Player 6.  Player 1 buys Council Room/X.  Player 2-5 buy Talisman/Masquerade.  You buy Quarry/Masquerade.

P1 plays Council Room giving everyone 6 cards and buys a Contraband (You have Q/M/c/c/c/c)
P2 plays Masquerade, everyone passes their Talisman down (P1 passes their Contraband). (You have Q/M/T/c/c/c)
P3 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/c/c)
P4 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/T/c)
P5 does the same. (You have Q/M/T/T/T/T),
You play Masquerade, getting the Contraband, and with Q/C/T/T/T/T, you buy two Grand Markets and gain the remaining 8.

[michaeljb]

I'll take a stab at it...

Looks like that works, but I didn't use Council Room. Our solutions do end with "You"/Player 6 playing the same Treasures.

[lefaiison]

Without Council Room I'm not sure how to get that Contraband into P6's hands.

[michaeljb]

Without Council Room I'm not sure how to get that Contraband into P6's hands.

With Council Room, P6 plays Masquerade then has 1 Copper and those other Treasures in hand, but that Copper obviously doesn't need to be there, so one way to look at it is that Council Room gave P6 an extra slot in hand that eventually went to a Copper instead of something useful.

[Deadlock39]

Hmmm, I guess that's why I was only pretty sure. 


I totally missed pulling something into the last players hand with Masquerade, but I also had totally overlooked the treasure tricks in my first attempts. 

lefaiison,
I think the detail you missed might be that the last player does not start with his Quarry in hand.  He just has Masq and 4 Coppers.  He then receives the 4 Talisman to replace his Coppers, plays his Masq, draws Quarry and a Copper, passes the Copper and receives the Contraband.

[michaeljb]

Hmmm, I guess that's why I was only pretty sure. 


I totally missed pulling something into the last players hand with Masquerade, but I also had totally overlooked the treasure tricks in my first attempts. 

lefaiison,
I think the detail you missed might be that the last player does not start with his Quarry in hand.  He just has Masq and 4 Coppers.  He then receives the 4 Talisman to replace his Coppers, plays his Masq, draws Quarry and a Copper, passes the Copper and receives the Contraband.

And this means all P1 has to do is buy a Contraband (instead of a Council Room) and pass it on down...

My original solution had Players 1-4 opening Talisman/Masquerade, Player 5 Contraband/Herbalist, and Player 6 Quarry Masquerade. Players pass the Talismans on down, and when it gets to Player 5's turn, he just puts Talisman back on his deck so he can pass it to Player 6, but having Player 1 buy Contraband eliminates the need for Herbalist.

[Deadlock39]

Okay, so it took a while to back to this, but I am still going to find time to post some of the more amusing attempts I made at this one.  Some of them are now inferior since michaeljb found the ultimate solution that can grab all 10, but I am still intrigued by a number of the things that fell out of my attempts.

Here is my best solution to the problem if you are restricted to literally buying the Grand Markets and aren't allowed to gain them with Talisman (or Ironworks or Workshop, though I doubt either of those would be useful).


5 Player "Buy" 4 Grand Markets Turn 3

10 Kingdom Cards:
Council Room
Island
Great Hall
Throne Room
Masquerade
Trade Route
Harem
Nobles
Fairgrounds
Grand Market

Player 1 opens: Council Room/Estate(1)
Player 2 opens: Island(2)/Great Hall(3)
Player 3 opens: Throne Room/Masquerade
Player 4 opens: Trade Route/Masquerade
Player 5 opens: Throne Room/Trade Route

                       Player 1                  Player 2            Player 3             Player 4             Player 5
Turn 3 draw:    CR/C/C/C/C             C/C/C/C/C        ThR/M/C/C/C      TR/M/X/x/X        TR/ThR/X/X/X

Player 1 plays Council Room   
New hands:      C/C/C/C/C/C/X/X     C/C/C/C/C/C    ThR/M/C/C/C/C    TR/M/X/X/X/X    TR/ThR/X/X/X/X
Player 1 buys Harem(4)

Player 2 buys Nobles(5)

Player 3 plays Masquerade
Passes:            X->                         X->                 (+C/C) ThR->      TR->                  X->
New Hands:     X/X/X/X/X                X/X/X/X/X        C/C/C/C/C/C/X    ThR/M/X/X/X/X   TR/TR/ThR/X/X/X
Player 3 buys Fairgrounds(6)

Player 4 plays Masquerade   
Passes:            X->                         X->                 X->                     (+X/X) ThR->     X->
New Hands:     X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X    X/X/X/X/X/X    TR/TR/ThR/ThR/X/X
Player 4 Buys Nothing.

Player 5 plays Throne Room.
and...    plays Throne Room
            and...    plays Trade Route Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  Trashing X
                         and plays Trade Route again, Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  Trashing X
             and plays Throne Room again
             and...    plays Trade Route Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  No cards left in hand.         
                          and plays Trade Route again Gaining +$6 and +1 buy.  No cards left in hand.

Player 5 had $24 and 5 buys.
Player 5 buys 4 Grand Markets


Random notes:
Player 4 could by a Duchy, but it wouldn't get us enough for another GM. 
One of the $6 VP cards could also be swapped out for Duchy to reduce the Kingdom set to 9.


This one I actually think feels a bit unoptimized and doesn't do anything too interesting, but it is the only solution like this that stays at or under 10 Kingdom cards.  The real fun begins when you go over 10, and I will put them up when I find time.  They include buying 6 Grand Markets with 6 players (just an extension of this one, but with some very interesting turns), and my best attempt at a solution that gains some of their GMs, which got to 9. That one gets a bit crazy, and is really just a monument to the time I wasted on this.

[Blooki]

Who says going last is a disadvantage?