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Author Topic: Cache as an Opener  (Read 9517 times)

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Young Nick

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Cache as an Opener
« on: April 18, 2012, 01:44:17 pm »
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Could someone kindly run a quick simulation to see exactly how much Cache/- (or with any $2, like Embargo, for that matter) sucks as an opener. I imagine it would be pretty poor, seeing as opening Cache/-  gives you $12/13 cards, which is definitely worse than Silver/Silver. There was some discussion in the "Cache Use" thread, but without any numbers, I don't know what to think. Obviously, the game is more important than turns 3 and 4, but I am curious, nonetheless.
Related thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2186.25

Also, I am sure the associated combinatorics aren't too difficult for someone to do without simulating, but I am no good at that. Beyond the fact that there are 13!/9!3! different ways to arrange your newly shuffled deck, I am unsure.

While on the topic of asking for simulations, would anyone be willing to do the Potion/Silver vs. Potion/Warehouse for me? I already asked in this thread: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2271.new#new

Thanks a bunch in advance!
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 01:56:59 pm »
+2

I imagine it would be pretty poor, seeing as opening Cache/-  gives you $12/13 cards, which is definitely worse than Silver/Silver.
12/13>11/12

DG

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 02:08:05 pm »
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The basic simulator script for cache opening 5/2 beats the big money script opening 3/3. For a cache deck, opening with a silver on 5/2 is worse than opening cache on 5/2. Opening silver/silver then buying caches is still better if you're  lucky enough to open 4/3.

Warehouse/potion is certainly superior. It's probably a question of buying silver then warehouse, or warehouse then silver, and the early warehouse will come out better unless there's a good 5 cost card you need to buy early.
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Young Nick

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 02:43:02 pm »
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WW: *facepalm* And I consider math my strong point...
DG: This is as I would have assumed. What I was looking for, and would like to know (or learn how to do for my own) is the expected coinage on turns 3 and 4, like for the openings that were shown on the Dominion Strategy blog.

Like those found at the following links: http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/03/09/basic-opening-probabilities/
http://dominionstrategy.com/2011/06/21/opening-probabilities-part-ii/

Thankya.
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jotheonah

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 05:20:59 pm »
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What about Cache/Chapel on a 5/2? Chapelling away your whole starting deck tends to be a 3-turn process anyway; adding a Gold's worth of buying power before the reshuffle seems like an even tradeoff for a slightly slower Chapel process.

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Cache

Council Room confirms that it's at the very least the best bad opening with Cache. And that Cache-Nothing is among the worst.
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blueblimp

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 05:54:52 pm »
+1

What about Cache/Chapel on a 5/2? Chapelling away your whole starting deck tends to be a 3-turn process anyway; adding a Gold's worth of buying power before the reshuffle seems like an even tradeoff for a slightly slower Chapel process.

http://councilroom.com/openings?card=Cache

Council Room confirms that it's at the very least the best bad opening with Cache. And that Cache-Nothing is among the worst.

Except Silver/Chapel is rated higher, so maybe Cache/Chapel is only well-rated because Chapel is good, not because opening Cache is good.
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jotheonah

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 05:58:54 pm »
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I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying you'd open Silver/Chapel over Cache/Chapel on a 5/2? Cause I would have to be convinced that that's the optimal play.

Since Silver/Chapel is a 3/2, we're comparing a 5/2 to a 3/4 and I think that's sorta Apples and Oranges as far as Council Room is concerned.
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blueblimp

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 12:32:19 am »
+1

Sorry if I came off abrupt. I just mean that there's a common pattern on the CouncilRoom openings data: if you look at a card (such as Cache), its openings together with strong cards will be rated higher than its openings with weak cards, which could simply be coming from the merits of those other cards and not a good interaction.

For example, if you look at Horse Traders as an opener, Horse Traders/Masquerade is highly-rated at rank 3. I don't see why there should be strong combo between those two cards. If you look at Masquerade's page,  Masquerade/Silver is rank 6 while HT/Masq is rank 48. This suggests that HT/Masq is maybe actually bad and it's better just to do Masq/Silver.

So when considering Cache/Chapel, I don't feel the CouncilRoom opening data suggests there is a combo there--otherwise, I'd expect Cache/Chapel to be rated higher than Silver/Chapel. I just think it says that Chapel is a good opener.
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Tables

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 05:32:34 am »
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Correlation does not imply causation, so to speak.

Still, I'd have also expected Chapel/Cache to do better than Silver/Chapel. Perhaps it's the fact that there's 2 more cards of junk to try and clear, slowing your ability to trash everything, and also slowing your cycling, slowing your rate of trashing too, and that's further compounded as you buy new cards, which might just reduce the effectiveness of Chapel.

Actually, that might be worth simulating, just to see how much of a difference there is.
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...spin-offs are still better for all of the previously cited reasons.
But not strictly better, because the spinoff can have a different cost than the expansion.

Quadell

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 08:37:42 am »
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I can't get Dominiate to force a $5/$2 split, but I can tell it to buy Cache and Chapel on turns 1 and 2 if it does get the $5/$2 split, and play like Big Money in all other cases. (This strategy beats Big Money 54% of the time.) I can pair that strategy with a strategy that buys Chapel and Silver on a $5/$2 split, and plays big money in all other cases, and the former beats the latter 51% of the time.

So in Big Money decks, Chapel/Cache seems slightly better than Chapel/Silver. Bear in mind, though, that Chapel is not very good in Big Money, and Cache is. Conversely, of course, Chapel is quite helpful for many engines, while Cache is less likely to be. So in games with actual strategy, I still don't know if Chapel/Cache > Chapel/Silver or not.

EDIT: P.S., Big Smithy is improved by opening Cache/Nothing (rather than Smithy/Nothing) on a $5/$2 split. This is probably true for many Big-Money-plus-X strategies. Though not DoubleJack, it seems.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2012, 08:44:56 am by Quadell »
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jotheonah

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 12:09:54 pm »
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@blueblimp - Got it, makes sense. No offense taken.

I'm actually glad to see this investigated a little bit. Cache is still a card I have a hard time getting my head around, mostly because I still find it a little abstract exactly what affect 2 Coppers has on my deck.
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blueblimp

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #11 on: April 21, 2012, 12:39:08 am »
+1

Here are some possible reasons that Silver/Chapel would be rated higher than Cache/Chapel yet have nothing to do with the strength of that opening. Chapel is best on boards with good engines but poor money strategies. Since Cache is a good card for many money strategies, Chapel-enabled engines will face stronger competition when Cache is available. Also, Cache occupies a kingdom slot, leaving only 8 that could be engine components, which weakens engine possibilities (on average).

This could be controlled for by comparing the openings only on boards where Cache is available.

(Incidentally, I'm pretty sure this is why Mint/FG is rated higher than Wharf/FG even though the latter is actually better. Wharf boards may have lots of strong possibilities, some maybe better than Wharf/FG, whereas Mint/FG will often be by far the strongest strategy available.)
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dondon151

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #12 on: April 21, 2012, 03:39:38 am »
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But if you open 5/2 on a board with Wharf and FG, chances are you're not going to have other options at $2 that are better than FG... the only possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head are Hamlet and Chapel. Plus, even if you go for a drawing engine with Wharf, you need some source of money, and you only need 3 FGs to reach $16 worth in treasure in your entire deck for a double Province buy.
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blueblimp

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2012, 11:31:23 am »
+1

Openings aren't rated separately by initial draw though (if I understand correctly), so 5/2 openings are most often compared against 4/3 openings. The strength of Mint/FG against 4/3 is maybe greater than the strength of Wharf/FG against 4/3 openings.
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permanoob

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2012, 08:44:11 pm »
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Cache/Duke? Could that work?
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jotheonah

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2012, 04:05:48 pm »
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Cache/Duke would be an excellent use of a 5/5 opening.  :P
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shark_bait

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2012, 04:49:43 pm »
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Cache/Duke? Could that work?

I tried to make it work once with a great 5/2 start..... curse you embargo!
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brokoli

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2012, 03:26:08 pm »
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Cache/Duke? Could that work?

Yes, it worked more than once for me.
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Robz888

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2012, 03:30:26 pm »
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Cache/Duke? Could that work?

Yes, it worked more than once for me.

Me too. Cache/Duke is great.
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Kahryl

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2012, 05:02:55 pm »
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$5 Duke enablers make me itch because I can never tell when to break off the enabler and start buying duchies (unlike say Horse Traders which has a clear mentally soothing buy strategy). Does anyone have any rules of thumb for the switch?
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2012, 05:10:04 pm »
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$5 Duke enablers make me itch because I can never tell when to break off the enabler and start buying duchies (unlike say Horse Traders which has a clear mentally soothing buy strategy). Does anyone have any rules of thumb for the switch?
Well, it really depends. You have GOT to watch your opponent. If they're mirroring you, the duchy split is ABSOLUTELY VITAL - lose the split and you're probably dead. So you have to jump fairly quick in that case. OTOH, if they aren't mirroring, you need to be able to get to 11 duchy/duke, preferrably 12, before they pile the provinces. So build enough accordingly. So the most annoying thing is an opponent who you can't tell on. This is actually a great illustration of keeping your options. Basically, if you can keep the options open to power provinces, you can hold off a bit longer on the duchies - with the provision that if they go 'too early', then you are prepared to get those provinces. If you can't do that fast enough, that means you should be diving for those duchies.
tl;dr no, there's no quick rule of thumb.

Kahryl

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2012, 05:14:06 pm »
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Thanks. Yeah, the closest thing I have to a rule of thumb is my opponent's progress IF he's going for provinces.. one gold and I want to stop, two golds and I need to stop.
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jotheonah

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Re: Cache as an Opener
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2012, 05:14:28 pm »
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which is why Duke is probably one of the most strategically complicated cards in the game
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