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Author Topic: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn  (Read 1370 times)

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Jesster

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Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« on: February 14, 2024, 04:37:35 pm »
+2

For the first several sets the best you could possibly hope for would be to buy a nice 5-cost card on your opening turn (Maybe a Lab or a Market or something).

Then Guilds came along and introduced Baker which gave everyone an extra $1 that could be used at any time (including your starting turn).  So now it was possible to buy a first turn Gold.  Neat.

Adventures added Events and included the Borrow event, which when coupled with the coffers from Baker opened up the possibility of a $7 buy on the first turn (in case you really wanted one of those 7-cost Prosperity cards).

Next up, Nocturne added Heirlooms including Pooka/Cursed Gold.  Now an opening 4 copper + Cursed Gold + Coffers + Borrow meant that not only is an opening Province possible, but you could even swing an opening Platinum.  However, the coveted first-turn Colony was still a bit out of reach.

Until Menagerie added the Desperation event.  Desperation, combined with everything else mentioned above makes an $11 Colony buy first turn a possibility if the stars align just right.  No one could expect much more than that for an opening turn, right?

Plunder says, "hold my beer".  How does an Inherited Capital in the opening turn sound? 

However, this introduces a bit of complexity to the equation.  If we are abiding by the standard rule of no more than two unbound landscapes per game, then the addition of Inherited, kicks Borrow out of the loop.  Additionally, the biggest potential single buy in the game is Dominate at $14, but that's another event, so if we're going to go for that, it kicks Desperation out of the running as well, at which point we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

So if we're not buying Dominate, we can put Desperation back in which gives us $15 to spend on an opening turn.  Add Tracker/Pouch to the mix to give us an extra buy and the question becomes, what do we spend that $15 on to get the "Biggest" opening buy? 

If we're just going for the most victory points, we can't do double province, but Colony/Island is probably better anyway for the same VP value plus the ability to get useless cards out of your way.

If we're going for biggest treasure buy, we could go Platinum/Gold for $15.

I'm sure there are a lot more strategically effective opening turns than those, so what would you do given just the right kingdom?  And did I miss some other card that could be inherited instead of Capital for a bigger effect? 

How about Masterpiece and 12 silvers?  That sounds like a great opening turn.
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scolapasta

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2024, 05:15:05 pm »
+2

Remove Desperation.
Add Shelters and Way of the Mouse as Farmer's Market.

In a 4 player game, first three players play their Necropolis as Farmers market.
your turn, hand is:
Necropolis, 1 Copper, 1 Pouch, Cursed Gold, Capital
Play Necropolis as Farmers Market for +4
+ 11 from treasures
+1 from Coffers gets you to 16 and Double Province.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2024, 05:20:41 pm »
+5

There are other threads here that show was that you can purchase every card in the supply on turn 1; here's one: https://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20233.0.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 05:23:38 pm by GendoIkari »
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scolapasta

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2024, 05:28:03 pm »
+1

Actually, we can get it 17 but only 1 buy...
Add Embassy and Pixie in the Kingdom.

Same as before, but now this has to be your 2nd turn (so no deck)
Other players do the same, but one also buys an Embassy (each other player gains a silver)
At your turn:
Necropolis, 1 Overgrown Estate, 1 Goat, Cursed Gold, Capital

Play Necropolis as Farmers Market for the +4
Then first play Goat and trash Overgrown Estate for +1 (5)
+1 card, and you draw the gained Silver +2 (7)
Remaining treasures are +9 (16)
and the Coffers for +1 (17)
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Tozar

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2024, 06:07:31 pm »
0

Remove Desperation.
Add Shelters and Way of the Mouse as Farmer's Market.

In a 4 player game, first three players play their Necropolis as Farmers market.
your turn, hand is:
Necropolis, 1 Copper, 1 Pouch, Cursed Gold, Capital
Play Necropolis as Farmers Market for +4
+ 11 from treasures
+1 from Coffers gets you to 16 and Double Province.

I think I'm missing something here.  How are we getting Capital in our opening hand?  If we're inheriting it with an Estate, that uses 1 Buy and 7 of our Coins, right?  So now I'm down to only 9 coins, right?
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scolapasta

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2024, 06:15:50 pm »
0

Inherited the Trait - changes your starting deck.

And come to think if it, in the first scenario, yoour oppoments could all buy (if they get up to 10 and +1 buy, which they can): embassy, then lost city

So then you would have your starting hand, plus 4 silvers (on your 2nd turn and with shuffle luck), no need any more even to trash, so you have:
Necropolis, 1 Copper, 1 Pouch, Cursed Gold, Capital + the 4 silvers from your draws:
+4
+19 from the treasures and you enough to double Colony.

Of course with Populate shenanigans, all this is moot, since there are ways to buy everything.
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2024, 09:21:04 am »
+1

There are other threads here that show was that you can purchase every card in the supply on turn 1; here's one: https://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=20233.0.

Just to reiterate what was said in this quote... In this thread, you're talking about getting one big buy on your first turn. Whereas the actual biggest first turn buys literally every single card in the whole supply. Like every single kingdom card, every victory card, and all the treasures.
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Jesster

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2024, 10:28:40 am »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!
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Awaclus

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2024, 10:45:11 am »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.
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Tiago

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2024, 10:55:46 am »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Or how many times you can get the VP. (It's more than 8 because of Ambassador-Changeling.)

Jesster

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2024, 07:10:41 pm »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Um... one?  If you're thinking of doing tricks with Populate, I don't think its possible with Dominate on the board.  Cursed Gold/Baker/League of Bankers gets you to $9 first turn which is one short of the 10 you need for Populate.  To buy Populate first turn, you need the help of another unbound landscape to get you to 10, and that's not possible if Populate and Dominate are taking up both slots.
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Tiago

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2024, 08:24:26 pm »
+1

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Um... one?  If you're thinking of doing tricks with Populate, I don't think its possible with Dominate on the board.  Cursed Gold/Baker/League of Bankers gets you to $9 first turn which is one short of the 10 you need for Populate.  To buy Populate first turn, you need the help of another unbound landscape to get you to 10, and that's not possible if Populate and Dominate are taking up both slots.

https://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17800.msg841171#msg841171

Awaclus

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2024, 08:40:37 pm »
+6

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Um... one?  If you're thinking of doing tricks with Populate, I don't think its possible with Dominate on the board.  Cursed Gold/Baker/League of Bankers gets you to $9 first turn which is one short of the 10 you need for Populate.  To buy Populate first turn, you need the help of another unbound landscape to get you to 10, and that's not possible if Populate and Dominate are taking up both slots.

You don't need Populate. I just bought 44 Dominates on turn 1 with this kingdom:

Fortress, Priest, Villa, Animal Fair, King's Court, Squire, Tracker, Importer, Watchtower, Cavalry, Family of Inventors, Dominate, Advance, shelters


The basic idea is to use Family of Inventors to make Cavalry cheap and KC cost $6 (for Advance), use a Squire to get started with extra +buys, reroll your starting hand until you have Necropolis in it, and use Advance and your coins to get Cavalries to draw everything in the start. Once you have a Fortress, you can get anything you want without having to pay coins for it, and once you have played some Priests, getting the stuff you want generates you coins. Watchtower in hand + Fortress can turn +buys into +cards after the Cavalries are all gone, and I used Horses a bit for draw too. Watchtower for draw is kind of annoying because it eats up Villa supply super inefficiently, but I did that too.

The game ID for my exact plays: 145365380

This was just a quick lazy attempt, I bet it can be improved massively even by just playing the exact same kingdom better and there might be a better kingdom too since this is just literally the first one that I came up with by modifying the entire-supply-gaining kingdoms a bit to make the general idea work with just one Event. I suspect the biggest improvements might be to use more Horses and fewer Watchtowers for draw, and to optimize the order in which you buy things around when you first start to have meaningful choices.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2024, 08:52:32 pm by Awaclus »
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Jesster

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2024, 05:16:38 pm »
0

You don't need Populate. I just bought 44 Dominates on turn 1 with this kingdom:

You win.  I definitely did not fully consider the potential of cards like cavalry with "Return to action phase" on-gain effects.  I guess at this point there isn't muich limit to what you can do in a single turn given just the right draw/kingdom.
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Will(ow|iam)

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2024, 03:23:55 pm »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Um... one?  If you're thinking of doing tricks with Populate, I don't think its possible with Dominate on the board.  Cursed Gold/Baker/League of Bankers gets you to $9 first turn which is one short of the 10 you need for Populate.  To buy Populate first turn, you need the help of another unbound landscape to get you to 10, and that's not possible if Populate and Dominate are taking up both slots.

You don't need Populate. I just bought 44 Dominates on turn 1 with this kingdom:

Fortress, Priest, Villa, Animal Fair, King's Court, Squire, Tracker, Importer, Watchtower, Cavalry, Family of Inventors, Dominate, Advance, shelters


The basic idea is to use Family of Inventors to make Cavalry cheap and KC cost $6 (for Advance), use a Squire to get started with extra +buys, reroll your starting hand until you have Necropolis in it, and use Advance and your coins to get Cavalries to draw everything in the start. Once you have a Fortress, you can get anything you want without having to pay coins for it, and once you have played some Priests, getting the stuff you want generates you coins. Watchtower in hand + Fortress can turn +buys into +cards after the Cavalries are all gone, and I used Horses a bit for draw too. Watchtower for draw is kind of annoying because it eats up Villa supply super inefficiently, but I did that too.

The game ID for my exact plays: 145365380

This was just a quick lazy attempt, I bet it can be improved massively even by just playing the exact same kingdom better and there might be a better kingdom too since this is just literally the first one that I came up with by modifying the entire-supply-gaining kingdoms a bit to make the general idea work with just one Event. I suspect the biggest improvements might be to use more Horses and fewer Watchtowers for draw, and to optimize the order in which you buy things around when you first start to have meaningful choices.

With WotHorse instead of Advance, you can get infinite cavalries. If you can get a Galleria in play, that means infinite buys. With 3 priests in play, buying a fortress, trashing it into your hand, buying a free cavalry, and horsing both the cavalry and the fortress, is resource-positive.

The piece missing from this is getting the Galleria and 3 priests into play.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 03:25:54 pm by Will(ow|iam) »
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Will(ow|iam)

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #15 on: June 07, 2024, 03:41:06 pm »
0

Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) = $13.  Just shy of buying Dominate (unless I missed some other mechanic that could give us 1 more coin in the opening turn without using up an event/landmark/project/way/trait slot).

Actually, I did miss such a mechanic.  Add Importer to the kingdom with the League of Bankers Ally.  Now we get:
Inherited Capital (6) + Cursed Gold (3) + Copper x3 (3) + Coffers from Baker (1) + League of Bankers w/ 4 starting favors from Importer (1) = $14.  First turn Dominate buy is possible!

The more interesting question is how many Dominates you can buy on the first turn.

Um... one?  If you're thinking of doing tricks with Populate, I don't think its possible with Dominate on the board.  Cursed Gold/Baker/League of Bankers gets you to $9 first turn which is one short of the 10 you need for Populate.  To buy Populate first turn, you need the help of another unbound landscape to get you to 10, and that's not possible if Populate and Dominate are taking up both slots.

You don't need Populate. I just bought 44 Dominates on turn 1 with this kingdom:

Fortress, Priest, Villa, Animal Fair, King's Court, Squire, Tracker, Importer, Watchtower, Cavalry, Family of Inventors, Dominate, Advance, shelters


The basic idea is to use Family of Inventors to make Cavalry cheap and KC cost $6 (for Advance), use a Squire to get started with extra +buys, reroll your starting hand until you have Necropolis in it, and use Advance and your coins to get Cavalries to draw everything in the start. Once you have a Fortress, you can get anything you want without having to pay coins for it, and once you have played some Priests, getting the stuff you want generates you coins. Watchtower in hand + Fortress can turn +buys into +cards after the Cavalries are all gone, and I used Horses a bit for draw too. Watchtower for draw is kind of annoying because it eats up Villa supply super inefficiently, but I did that too.

The game ID for my exact plays: 145365380

This was just a quick lazy attempt, I bet it can be improved massively even by just playing the exact same kingdom better and there might be a better kingdom too since this is just literally the first one that I came up with by modifying the entire-supply-gaining kingdoms a bit to make the general idea work with just one Event. I suspect the biggest improvements might be to use more Horses and fewer Watchtowers for draw, and to optimize the order in which you buy things around when you first start to have meaningful choices.

With WotHorse instead of Advance, you can get infinite cavalries. If you can get a Galleria in play, that means infinite buys. With 3 priests in play, buying a fortress, trashing it into your hand, buying a free cavalry, and horsing both the cavalry and the fortress, is resource-positive.

The piece missing from this is getting the Galleria and 3 priests into play.

Wait, galleria doesn't make that infinite buys because cavalry costs 0. Need to rethink...
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Will(ow|iam)

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2024, 04:17:28 pm »
+5

Infinite VP T1:

Kingdom:

Tracker, Importer, Cavalry, Fortress, Mill, Galleria, Groundskeeper; Family of Inventors, Way of the Horse, Advance; Shelters

Start by making cavalries cost 0.
Use Necropolis for an extra action, advance a Cavalry into a Galleria, draw it, play it.
Put the 5th favor on Galleria. Advance a cavalry into a fortress and a galleria, draw them, play them.
Get extra buys from now on by Advancing fortress to fortress. Use those buys to advance fortresses to GKs, then buy a cavalry, play all the GKs, then each buy phase:
* Advance your fortress to Mills.
* Buy a Cavalry
* Horse all your mills and the Cavalry
« Last Edit: June 07, 2024, 04:18:41 pm by Will(ow|iam) »
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Will(ow|iam)

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2024, 04:22:57 pm »
+2

Infinite VP T1:

Kingdom:

Tracker, Importer, Cavalry, Fortress, Mill, Galleria, Groundskeeper; Family of Inventors, Way of the Horse, Advance; Shelters

Start by making cavalries cost 0.
Use Necropolis for an extra action, advance a Cavalry into a Galleria, draw it, play it.
Put the 5th favor on Galleria. Advance a cavalry into a fortress and a galleria, draw them, play them.
Get extra buys from now on by Advancing fortress to fortress. Use those buys to advance fortresses to GKs, then buy a cavalry, play all the GKs, then each buy phase:
* Advance your fortress to Mills.
* Buy a Cavalry
* Horse all your mills and the Cavalry

We can shrink the kingdom by 1 card by replacing Mill and GK with Collection.
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Tiago

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2024, 07:00:35 pm »
0

Infinite VP T1:

Kingdom:

Tracker, Importer, Cavalry, Fortress, Mill, Galleria, Groundskeeper; Family of Inventors, Way of the Horse, Advance; Shelters

Start by making cavalries cost 0.
Use Necropolis for an extra action, advance a Cavalry into a Galleria, draw it, play it.
Put the 5th favor on Galleria. Advance a cavalry into a fortress and a galleria, draw them, play them.
Get extra buys from now on by Advancing fortress to fortress. Use those buys to advance fortresses to GKs, then buy a cavalry, play all the GKs, then each buy phase:
* Advance your fortress to Mills.
* Buy a Cavalry
* Horse all your mills and the Cavalry

Family of Inventors doesn't say repeat as desired. You can only make 1 thing cost $1 less per turn.

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Re: Thought Experiment: Biggest opening turn
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2024, 07:21:36 pm »
+3

Family of Inventors doesn't say repeat as desired. You can only make 1 thing cost $1 less per turn.

It wasn't mentioned directly, but Family of Inventors is usable at the start of the Buy phase, so each Cavalry purchase offers another opportunity to use it.
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