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[faust]

"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

Maybe I'm simply trying to engineer a sensible solution, but a central difference between "when-trash" and "when-discard" is that "when-trash" does something while the card is not yours. You should clearly only be able to react with a Reaction if the Reaction is actually yours, so in this view it make sense to have "when-discard" be a Reaction but "when-trash" not.

[Donald X.]

It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.

The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.

[GendoIkari]

It was a question back when, should I color when-gain and when-trash.

The key thing for me is to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to. Moat isn't involved in anything when you get attacked; it has to draw your attention. Well. Gaining a card means you're already paying attention to it. You can argue that you're also paying attention to the card you're discarding, but it can be e.g. "your hand" due to Minion.

But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.

[Jeebus]

But now someone like me is going to point out that Count can trash "your hand", and if Fortress is in it, you still have to know to deal with that.

And me, in my previous post. 

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.

Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.

[joefarebrother]

right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

[grrgrrgrr]

"When you discard this" is a reaction so that it works when the card could be otherwise hidden (if something else was discarded on top of it) as well as to remind players about it (same as with patron)

How does it help that it's blue if it's hidden?

Patron is presumably blue because it's easy to miss the below-the-line stuff when you're just revealing it. "When-gain" is not so easy to miss, because you would usually look more closely at a card you're gaining. But discarding and trashing seem pretty similar; both could involve several cards at once.

Another thing to consider is that on-gain effects are already depleted by the first time you have the card in hand, so the blue color would be misleading.

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so. Especially Tunnel as that is a Victory card. And on top of that, the trash effect only occurs once, while the discard effect could occur every shuffle.

But it is also just historically determined.

[GendoIkari]

And with regards to trashing, well, trashing already mandates paying big attention to the card as you loose it. Discarding less so.

I'm pretty sure I remember Donald basically saying this exact thing about why Fortress wasn't a reaction; that trashing is already something you pay close attention to.

[pate]

So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet?  If so when?

[Jeebus]

Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.

Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.

right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.

[faust]

Fair point about cards you pay attention to. (You pay more attention to cards you're trashing than cards you're discarding maybe.) But the following is still not a valid point, although people seem to think so:

There's also something of a consistent explanation about public vs non-public locations. A card being trashed is moved to a public place. A card being gained is moving from a public place. A card being discarded may be going from a private place to another private place.

Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them.

right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone

And you're trashing cards from a private zone; you're most often trashing cards from your hand. Both discarding and trashing can be from your hand or from somewhere else, and both are pretty normal for both.

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?

[Jeebus]

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?

Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

[Holger]

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?

Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

[Jeebus]

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?

Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.
Ok, so now we're back to revealing discarding to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."

[AJD]

But by the time the when-trash effect takes place, the card is in the (public) trash, no?

Yes, we discussed that already in the posts you're quoting. You're moving a card being trashed to a public place, but that is also the case for a card being discarded.

GendoIkari is right, not all discards happen publicly: e.g. discarding your hand to Minion, where other players only see the top card you discarded. So the other hand cards go from a private place (hand) to a completely hidden place (discard pile), without being revealed before discarding.
Same with Cartographer from this expansion when you discard several cards - though in this case, since you have carefully chosen which cards to discard, you'll rarely miss a discard reaction anyway.

I guess you're agreeing that "revealing from a private zone" is not a valid argument.

No? The discard pile (other than the top card) is a private zone. If you discard a few cards, no one will ever know what the third one from the top is unless you reveal it. If you reveal that the third one is a Tunnel, you're revealing it from a private zone. Similarly, if you have a bunch of cards in your hand, no one will know that the third one is a Moat unless you reveal it. I'm not sure what you're objecting to in that analysis.

Ok, so now we're back to revealing to a private zone. As I said: "Not really, since all the when-discard cards have rules saying that you have to reveal them."

The reason you have to reveal them is because the discard pile is a private zone. Catacombs doesn't say "when you trash this, reveal it and gain a cheaper card"; you don't have to reveal it because the trash is already visible. Tunnel doesn't say "when you discard this, you may gain a Gold"; you have to reveal it, for the same reason Trader doesn't say "while this is in your hand, when you gain a card, you may exchange the gained card for a Silver."

[Jeebus]

Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p

So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.

[Donald X.]

So has any one got a physical copy of hinterlands yet?  If so when?

Mine showed up Saturday.

[Holger]

Sorry! I've been reading and writing the wrong verb several times.
When Joefarebrother wrote "right but you're revealing them *from* a private zone" I misread and thought he was talking about discarding, not revealing. (The emphasis on "from" confused me.) And then in my last post, I even wrote "reveal" when I meant "discard". :p

So I have to start again. Yes, now the argument makes more sense. Hmmm. I guess I was thinking that there's a special rule for when-discard cards that you have to reveal them, even Village Green, Weaver and Trail, which are moved to play for all to see. There's no such rule for Sheepdog etc.

Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it, since they already become public by being played/set aside when you use their "when discard" ability, just like Fortress becomes public when trashed (for a single moment).

So discarding in general is different from gaining/trashing in terms of "publicness",  though it's debatable whether this is a good reason for deciding what should be a Reaction - as discussed, all "when discard" Reactions specifically make themselves public while reacting. There's also the case of Patron's "when reveal" - it's triggered from a public position by definition, yet it is a Reaction.
 
I do think that without the colouring, it would be easier to miss e.g. Weaver's ability with a Minion discard, than to miss Fortress' ability when trashing it. But that's unrelated to public/private information; like Donald said, the point is "to draw your attention to a card you're not paying attention to".

FWIW, I wish Scheme was a Reaction, for that same reason. In RL games, I forget to use its clean-up ability about half the time I've played it...

[Jeebus]

Actually, Tunnel is the only "when discard" card with an explicit "reveal", for accountability reasons. The other "when discard" cards (Trail, Weaver, Village Green and Faithful Hound) do not have it

It's in the Hinterlands rulebook.

[Spookyverse]

All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.

Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?

[Donald X.]

All together, the three update packs amount to 27 new cards - a full expansion, out of nowhere.

Thanks for the new cards and the explanations. If those 27 cards really were a full expansion by themselves, then there would be recommended kingdoms containing the new cards from across Seaside, Prosperity and Hinterlands, right? So any chance for some recommended kingdoms containing more than 2 expansions?

Making recommended sets is work I am not especially interested in doing. Other people make them though, for example Kieran Millar has a site with a bunch, and the Dominion Reddit has a kingdom of the week.

[sffc]

Just got a copy of Hinterlands v2 upgrade pack today. The new cards look super cool. Hinterlands was already my favorite expansion. But I wanted to +1 the lamenting of the loss of Silk Road. It's the only Alt-VP in Hinterlands that is big enough for you to develop a strategy around it (you can win the game with Silk Road, mostly ignoring Province, but you can't do that with Tunnel or Farmland). I like Silk Road better than Gardens because you can make it build faster, and having a fat deck is not a prerequisite for Silk Road being really valuable. Silk Road is strong by itself if there's any good filter card in play (like Stables), and it's often the dominant strategy on boards with Tunnel, Great Hall / Mill, Nobles, Island, etc., which can't be said of Gardens. Another nice thing about Silk Road is the dynamic where a player rushing Silk Road forces other big money / engine players to bite the bullet and buy a few themselves since getting all 12 Silk Roads is really strong (that's automatically a 36-point deck and can easily grow to a 60+ deck). I hope Silk Road returns in another set or as a standalone promo card for folks not fortunate enough to own a copy of Hinterlands v1.

[grrgrrgrr]

Just got a copy of Hinterlands v2 upgrade pack today. The new cards look super cool. Hinterlands was already my favorite expansion. But I wanted to +1 the lamenting of the loss of Silk Road. It's the only Alt-VP in Hinterlands that is big enough for you to develop a strategy around it (you can win the game with Silk Road, mostly ignoring Province, but you can't do that with Tunnel or Farmland). I like Silk Road better than Gardens because you can make it build faster, and having a fat deck is not a prerequisite for Silk Road being really valuable. Silk Road is strong by itself if there's any good filter card in play (like Stables), and it's often the dominant strategy on boards with Tunnel, Great Hall / Mill, Nobles, Island, etc., which can't be said of Gardens. Another nice thing about Silk Road is the dynamic where a player rushing Silk Road forces other big money / engine players to bite the bullet and buy a few themselves since getting all 12 Silk Roads is really strong (that's automatically a 36-point deck and can easily grow to a 60+ deck). I hope Silk Road returns in another set or as a standalone promo card for folks not fortunate enough to own a copy of Hinterlands v1.

It is also WanderWinder's favorite card. And while beating him is already a tall order, it becomes downright impossible when Silk Road is on the board.

[sffc]

Just to follow up on this, our wishes have been granted and a Silk Road replacement was announced as a promo card, Marchland! Thanks, Donald X!

https://www.reddit.com/r/dominion/comments/1agg1mm/new_promo_card_marchland/

https://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Marchland

Hoping I can get one at Gen Con this year…