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[AJD]

If someone playing IRL only owns, for example, Guilds and Cornucopia plus the Base Cards product, they only have access to seven Kingdom cards costing $2 or $3. If they deal out a random kingdom containing those seven cards plus Young Witch, there isn't an additional card to add to be the Bane. What should they do in that case? Add an eleventh card, and select one of the $2–$3 cards they do have to be the Bane, I assume?

[chipperMDW]

Grabbing a suitable pile from the Kingdom and randomly selecting a new eleventh Kingdom card (like you said) is the most sensible, I think. Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

If you do disallow stealing Black Market from the Kingdom as the Bane, you can end up with the case where the kingdom initially has Black Market, no Young Witch, and no other suitable bane piles, but then you select Young Witch and (cards from) all suitable bane piles to be in the Black Market. Then, you also have to be willing to steal the Bane pile out of the Black Market. (Of course, Donald's suggestion of not using setup cards in the Black Market would also solve this.)

Way of the Mouse is also in this, but it's pretty similar to Young Witch.

[LibraryAdventurer]

Buy another expansion or two.
and/or make a cheap fan card.

[GendoIkari]

Why was this not asked back when Cornucopia first came out?

[AJD]

Why was this not asked back when Cornucopia first came out?

Cornucopia first came out before the Base Cards product, and so in order to play a game with Young Witch you would have to have at least Cornucopia plus Dominion or Intrigue, which would give you a total of 10 or more $2–$3 cards, so if you had a Kingdom of Young Witch plus nine cards there would always be at least one more $2–$3 card to add.

Also, I didn't think of it till today.

[Erick648]

For this to happen, you would need 8 specific cards to be in the kingdom: Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Masterpiece, Menagerie, Stonemason, and Young Witch.  There are 25 possible cards you can choose from.  By my calculations, this places the odds of not having a suitable bane at 1 in 24,035, and that’s if you only own Cornucopia & Guilds and the Base Cards (and play full random), which is likely rare to begin with. 

How many players have decided to start their collections with just the Base Cards and Cornucopia & Guilds, and how many random-kingdom games have they played while only owning those sets?  I’m not sure this situation has ever arisen or will ever arise.

[AJD]

Here in the Rules Questions subforum, we do not concern ourselves with whether the scenarios we discuss will ever actually arise!

[spineflu]

Here in the Rules Questions subforum, we do not concern ourselves with whether the scenarios he discuss will ever actually arise!

thats right, We mostly seek closure

[mxdata]

For this to happen, you would need 8 specific cards to be in the kingdom: Candlestick Maker, Doctor, Fortune Teller, Hamlet, Masterpiece, Menagerie, Stonemason, and Young Witch.  There are 25 possible cards you can choose from.  By my calculations, this places the odds of not having a suitable bane at 1 in 24,035, and that’s if you only own Cornucopia & Guilds and the Base Cards (and play full random), which is likely rare to begin with. 

How many players have decided to start their collections with just the Base Cards and Cornucopia & Guilds, and how many random-kingdom games have they played while only owning those sets?  I’m not sure this situation has ever arisen or will ever arise.

Sure, but that's still a non-zero probability, and this forum thrives on debating extremely improbable edge cases

[Donald X.]

Why was this not asked back when Cornucopia first came out?

Or, why has it ever been asked?

[GendoIkari]

Why was this not asked back when Cornucopia first came out?

Or, why has it ever been asked?

We mostly seek closure

[Donald X.]

Why was this not asked back when Cornucopia first came out?

Or, why has it ever been asked?

We mostly seek closure

It was a rhetorical question. They supply their own edgy kind of closure.

[NoMoreFun]

There must be some kind of pleasure in being the person to find a fault that will immortalise you in errata.

Also clarifying whether official cards work a certain way can help with fan card design.

[chipperMDW]

Well, this particular question would come up when writing something like a kingdom generator.

[AJD]

If you roll up to game night with just Cornucopia and Alchemy, the probability of this happening is about 1 in 200.

[Oyvind]

What am I missing? No matter which sets you own, you will probably own at least Cornucopia, if you own Young Witch. If so, you’ll always be able to play with at least one bane pile:

In the rare event you draw Hamlet, Fortune Teller, Menagerie and Young Witch among the first ten cards, and you only own Cornucopia, your remaining collection will contain exactly zero 2 of 3 cost cards.

If that’s the case, draw an eleventh kingdom pile randomly (which will not cost 2 or 3), and make the last drawn 2 or 3 cost card among the first ten you drew the bane pile.

[Oyvind]

Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

Why is this apparently impossible? The Black Market DECK is not considered a kingdom card pile, and as such can’t be chosen as a bane pile. The Black Market PILE is a kingdom card pile, and could therefore be chosen. I don’t see any potential problems arising from Black Market being the bane pile. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to learn.

[infangthief]

Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

Why is this apparently impossible? The Black Market DECK is not considered a kingdom card pile, and as such can’t be chosen as a bane pile. The Black Market PILE is a kingdom card pile, and could therefore be chosen. I don’t see any potential problems arising from Black Market being the bane pile. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to learn.

It is certainly possible for the Black Market pile to be the Bane pile.
What chipperMDW is saying is normally impossible is the combination of Black Market as the Bane pile AND Young Witch in the Black Market deck. Normally you'd only get one or the other, or neither.

[Oyvind]

Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

Why is this apparently impossible? The Black Market DECK is not considered a kingdom card pile, and as such can’t be chosen as a bane pile. The Black Market PILE is a kingdom card pile, and could therefore be chosen. I don’t see any potential problems arising from Black Market being the bane pile. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to learn.

It is certainly possible for the Black Market pile to be the Bane pile.

Exactly as I stated. 

Why is it normally impossible to have Young Witch in the Black Market deck and the Black Market pile being the bane pile? Why would you normally only have one or the other? Because it’s not recommended to have cards with setup instructions in the Black Market deck? I think it’s not recommended because it can potentially be confusing. I don’t see how this example can be confusing, though. Maybe it’s just me…

Do you mean that the Black Market deck will be constructed after Black Market is selected, and that the bane pile should be selected after Young Witch is selected? If so, and you’re feeling compelled to follow the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, there’s no way for Black Market to be selected as the bane, so the question is not applicable.

If you’re not following the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, the Black Market pile could definitely be a bane pile, and if so, where is the problem? If I draw Young Witch as one of my ten first randomizer cards for a specific kingdom, I always draw eleven randomizer cards and choose the last 2 or 3 cost card drawn to be the bane. This could very well be Black Market.

[infangthief]

Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

Why is this apparently impossible? The Black Market DECK is not considered a kingdom card pile, and as such can’t be chosen as a bane pile. The Black Market PILE is a kingdom card pile, and could therefore be chosen. I don’t see any potential problems arising from Black Market being the bane pile. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to learn.

It is certainly possible for the Black Market pile to be the Bane pile.

Exactly as I stated. 

Why is it normally impossible to have Young Witch in the Black Market deck and the Black Market pile being the bane pile? Why would you normally only have one or the other? Because it’s not recommended to have cards with setup instructions in the Black Market deck? I think it’s not recommended because it can potentially be confusing. I don’t see how this example can be confusing, though. Maybe it’s just me…

In normal circumstances, Young Witch causes you to add a new kingdom pile, to be the Bane pile.
So if you have Young Witch in the Black Market deck, it causes you to add a new kingdom pile, which can't be Black Market, because Black Market is already in the kingdom.

[Oyvind]

Note that this can allow for the paradoxical case of Young Witch being in the game due to Black Market, but Black Market then being selected for the Bane, so you might want to disallow that case by special exception (or not; it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible).

Why is this apparently impossible? The Black Market DECK is not considered a kingdom card pile, and as such can’t be chosen as a bane pile. The Black Market PILE is a kingdom card pile, and could therefore be chosen. I don’t see any potential problems arising from Black Market being the bane pile. Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d love to learn.

It is certainly possible for the Black Market pile to be the Bane pile.

Exactly as I stated. 

Why is it normally impossible to have Young Witch in the Black Market deck and the Black Market pile being the bane pile? Why would you normally only have one or the other? Because it’s not recommended to have cards with setup instructions in the Black Market deck? I think it’s not recommended because it can potentially be confusing. I don’t see how this example can be confusing, though. Maybe it’s just me…

In normal circumstances, Young Witch causes you to add a new kingdom pile, to be the Bane pile.
So if you have Young Witch in the Black Market deck, it causes you to add a new kingdom pile, which can't be Black Market, because Black Market is already in the kingdom.

Thanks, it was as I expected, then. My point is that if you have a situation like they proposed, with Black Market being selected as the bane, nothing except setup is affected by this fact (which is already «compromised» if you find yourself in that situation), and therefore, I don’t see why it should matter at all once you start playing. Because of this, I find the issue a moot point.

[chipperMDW]

Do you mean that the Black Market deck will be constructed after Black Market is selected, and that the bane pile should be selected after Young Witch is selected? If so, and you’re feeling compelled to follow the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, there’s no way for Black Market to be selected as the bane, so the question is not applicable.

Yes, that's why I said it was "apparently impossible": because it's not possible for it to be generated by following the setup rules as written. We appear to agree, right?

If you’re not following the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, the Black Market pile could definitely be a bane pile, and if so, where is the problem? If I draw Young Witch as one of my ten first randomizer cards for a specific kingdom, I always draw eleven randomizer cards and choose the last 2 or 3 cost card drawn to be the bane. This could very well be Black Market.

Just because someone's following a non-standard setup procedure (especially if they're doing so out of necessity because they encountered an "error") doesn't necessarily mean they're ok with ending up with a kingdom that would have been impossible to generate under normal circumstances. I was just pointing out a case where AJD's proposed solution could result in such an "impossible" kingdom. Some people would balk at that; others would be fine with it.

Thanks, it was as I expected, then. My point is that if you have a situation like they proposed, with Black Market being selected as the bane, nothing except setup is affected by this fact (which is already «compromised» if you find yourself in that situation), and therefore, I don’t see why it should matter at all once you start playing. Because of this, I find the issue a moot point.

Indeed, such a kingdom would work fine if you wanted to play it. I even pointed that out, saying "it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible." I wonder if you thought I meant "impossible to play" rather than "impossible to generate."


Mostly, I just thought the edge case was amusing (hey, look, a paradox) and wanted to point it out. I wasn't suggesting there was an actual issue or problem anywhere.

[Oyvind]

Do you mean that the Black Market deck will be constructed after Black Market is selected, and that the bane pile should be selected after Young Witch is selected? If so, and you’re feeling compelled to follow the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, there’s no way for Black Market to be selected as the bane, so the question is not applicable.

Yes, that's why I said it was "apparently impossible": because it's not possible for it to be generated by following the setup rules as written. We appear to agree, right?

If you’re not following the setup rules for Young Witch exactly as written, the Black Market pile could definitely be a bane pile, and if so, where is the problem? If I draw Young Witch as one of my ten first randomizer cards for a specific kingdom, I always draw eleven randomizer cards and choose the last 2 or 3 cost card drawn to be the bane. This could very well be Black Market.

Just because someone's following a non-standard setup procedure (especially if they're doing so out of necessity because they encountered an "error") doesn't necessarily mean they're ok with ending up with a kingdom that would have been impossible to generate under normal circumstances. I was just pointing out a case where AJD's proposed solution could result in such an "impossible" kingdom. Some people would balk at that; others would be fine with it.

Thanks, it was as I expected, then. My point is that if you have a situation like they proposed, with Black Market being selected as the bane, nothing except setup is affected by this fact (which is already «compromised» if you find yourself in that situation), and therefore, I don’t see why it should matter at all once you start playing. Because of this, I find the issue a moot point.

Indeed, such a kingdom would work fine if you wanted to play it. I even pointed that out, saying "it doesn't hurt anything aside from being apparently impossible." I wonder if you thought I meant "impossible to play" rather than "impossible to generate."


Mostly, I just thought the edge case was amusing (hey, look, a paradox) and wanted to point it out. I wasn't suggesting there was an actual issue or problem anywhere.

I see. Yes, we’re very much in agreement.