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[mxdata]

Alright, so let's predict the 9 drops, from most likely to least likely. It went pretty well for Prosperity, so lemme try this again.

1. Cache: Very weak and very outdated by design. If the community really cannot live without this card, I'm pretty sure there will be an Event that says "Gain a Gold and 2 Coppers."
2. Duchess: The concept of making Duchies come with a bonus is neat and all, but I'm pretty sure there are better ways to accomplish this than with a terminal Silver whose extra effect is more beneficial to you than your opponent.
3. Noble Brigand: It is horribly weak; even worse than Navigator according to the last Qvist rankings. The fact that it only steals Gold or Silver was originally meant to ensure it's not 100% better than Thief, but nowadays makes the card just look stupid. And if this card would stay, it'd probably need errata. As the errata-free rewording it got is quite ambiguous.
4. Mandarin: This card has the most shenanigan-heavy on-gain effect ever, and is unlikely to ever be beaten in this regard. This doesn't mean much, however, as its in-game usage is almost as narrow as Counting House. Being a terminal Gold with a mostly-detrimental onplay-effect makes it look rather sucky comparing to stuff like Treasurer, and the on-gain effect is no enough to make up for that.
5. Ill-gotten gains: This is not a poorly designed card by any means, but it is still quite obvious that it's an unwanted stepchild of the designing team. You either ignore this card, or ignore the rest of the kingdom. Which is undesired, even when it is usually not overly obvious which strategy is the best choice. (It is also considered to be too complicated, to which I disagree)
6. Margrave: This card pretty obnoxious, and is kinda in the same boat as the outtake-Attacks from Seaside and Prosperity. It is pretty annoying when your opponent has a 5/2 opening and is continuously able to attack you (thanks to the fast cycling this card provides). It also undeservingly gives +Buy, and Seaside 2E kinda prove that this is not the stuff that is going to be errata'd out.
7. Trader: Probably a textbook case of cool on paper but poor in practice. It is almost always outclassed as a trasher and against junking Attacks, hand-reactions aren't so great in general. In the end, it exclusively stands out as a Silver gainer, to which it compares pretty unfavorably to Groom.
8. Oracle: This card is underpowered and brings very little to the table that other sources of draw don't. The attacking part makes it slow to resolve, too. Didn't Donald X say that he hates this card?
9. Haggler: The development team has assigned themselves the mission to phase out the use of "while in play" and "when you buy". Among the cards that still exist, Haggler is the biggest roadblock by far - its effect shouldn't be Throneable and it obviously must be restricted to buying. My hypothesis is that this will be replaced by a variant that is restricted to a singular gain per play.

My predictions on the errata are:
Highway: Cost reduction is part of the on-play effect of the card.
Farmlands: Only the first Farmland you gain in a turn gets the Remodel effect.
Fool's Gold: Looses the Reaction part.

I'd really prefer Highway not to have the cost-reduction be on-play, but given that while-in-play is unfortunately being phased out, I wouldn't be surprised if that is the case

I'm curious why you think Fool's Gold will lose the reaction

[Gherald]

I wonder how far these second editions will go?

Alchemy will become a full-sized set

[NoMoreFun]

You're right, but just imagine the wording nightmare this is going to be:

Haggler ($5, Action)
+$2
If this is the first time you played Haggler this turn, then, when you gain a card this turn, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Ok, it's maybe not that bad

I was thinking something like

Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
This turn, when you gain a card, if you bought it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Or for something crazier,

Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
At the end of your Buy phase this turn, for each card you gained during it, gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

Or for something more toned down but still interesting,

Haggler
Action - $5
+$2
Once this turn, when you gain a card, you may gain a cheaper non-Victory card.

[NoMoreFun]

On the other hand, maybe some of the replacement cards also use exchange and it becomes the "introduce exchange" expansion, since when-buy is getting phased out for when-gain. For example, I could see a replacement IGG that lets opponents also exchange curses for coppers, to be less stifling.

Exchange goes nicely with "when gain" as it allows you to receive the when gain effect without actually gaining the card (and vice versa, though that's less fun). Sometimes you'd prefer a Silver and a $5 to a Border Village and a $5. Maybe a new card could lean into this.

If Trader is lonely, Fool's Gold's reaction could be changed to an exchange effect.

[NoMoreFun]

What on earth is the argument for getting rid of Develop?

It's very situational (like Counting House). "Top deck a $3" isn't too bad for an early game Estate trashing effect. But it's not fun to trash a $3 to gain a $4 onto your deck... and an Estate. Sometimes there isn't even a $4 in the kingdom, let alone a $7. A card that really feels like it "doesn't work properly" and I think would get some buyer's remorse (like Counting House)

When it works well it feels awesome, and I'm sure it will be more missed than Thief and Scout. But I'm sure a simpler card could capture that fun. Armory is a better topdeck gainer (better=I like the design more). Replace is a better topdeck Remodel. Procession is more fun at making use of card cost sequences in the kingdom. Dismantle is a less janky card that involves trashing a card for something cheaper and something (likely) better.

[faust]

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

[Awaclus]

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

It is interesting when you realize that it guarantees $5 on turn 3/4. It's not that interesting after you're done realizing that.

[J Reggie]

Cartographer is good and I would say interesting with conditional draw such as Wishing Well, Vagrant, Will-o-Wisp, etc. I do, however, have bad memories of trying to teach people the game and putting Cartographer, a seemingly innocent card, and the kingdom. They would play it and just sit there staring at their 4 cards for a few minutes, then do it all over again.

[spineflu]

cartographer's good for getting performance out of otherwise sloggy decks. The trick is you gotta have a couple of them.

[trivialknot]

DXV on Hinterlands in 2012:

Odds are I wasn't going to be so unhappy with this one either, given how recent it is. The one thing I can say is, I thought the set was simpler than people think it is, and I would be strongly tempted to simplify it a little given that I know people think it's complex. Basically make it a little more like the standalone it didn't end up being. To that end the obv. changes are to drop the reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader, to drop the above-line text on Duchess (just leave it +$2), and make a version of IGG that just has $1 or $2 on the top. Possibly either Inn or Mandarin could change, I like them both as-is but they would be some of the wordiest cards left at that point. Noble Brigand is wordy but it needs those words. Probably all of these changes sound awful to you, dear reader, but that's the way of the world. It's hard to see the value in the simplicity I'd gain, but there really is value there. Anyway I went with the more complex versions and it's not so bad that I did.

Well, that commentary seems fairly out of date.  And here's from 2020:

Hinterlands: The problem here is that mostly I want to tweak cards but keep them, which results in an update pack we can't really sell. So e.g.: move +Buy from Margrave to Cache; drop the Reactions from Fool's Gold and Trader; make Ill-Gotten Gains a $6 that makes $2 and Curses on-gain. There are still cards to replace too though: Noble Brigand (weak), Mandarin (weak, rare weird issues), Oracle (so slow).

And here's the 2021 Thunderminion rankings from best to worst:

Margrave
Border Village
Highway
Spice Merchant
Stables
Haggler
Inn
Scheme
Jack of All Trades
Crossroads
Fool's Gold
Ill-Gotten Gains
Develop
Oracle
Tunnel
Embassy
Oasis
Farmland
Cartographer
Nomad Camp
Trader
Silk Road
Duchess
Noble Brigand
Mandarin
Cache

[trivialknot]

The Seaside 2E rulebook seems to confirm Farmland, Crossroads, Stables, Cartographer.  So if 9 will be removed, I'm going to guess they're from among:

The bottom 7 ranked cards (by the Thunderminion list above)
Oracle (very slow to play with)
Embassy (dominant and monolithic in multiplayer)
Ill Gotten Gains (DXV could probably make a better version today)
Margrave (I guess if we're killing powerful attacks?)

Personally, I don't hate any of these cards, but some of them I'd love to see better versions of them.  I like the ideas of IGG, Silk Road, Trader, Duchess, Mandarin, Cache, but they don't see much play.  It was pointed out on Discord that a new victory card seems unlikely because that would kick the update pack from 99 to 101 cards.  If so, that's a bit disappointing to me.

[urza]

For what it's worth, I think we have pretty strong evidence that Nomad Camp is out: one of the new cards is called Nomads.  Not only would that be kind of confusing, but there's a precedent with Seaside: Pirate Ship was taken out, and we got a card that was just called Pirate.

[Commodore Chuckles]

I think Cartographer should go. It's never good or interesting. Night Watchman is what this card wanted to be.

Is Night Watchman ever good or interesting?

It is interesting when you realize that it guarantees $5 on turn 3/4. It's not that interesting after you're done realizing that.

And when you realize you can use it to top deck cards you just bought. And when you realize you can play it right after you buy it. And when you realize it's not competing with $5 cards like Cartographer is.

[Oyvind]

I think these nine are leaving:
- Cache
- Fool’s Gold
- Ill-gotten Gains
- Mandarin
- Margrave
- Noble Brigand
- Nomad Camp
- Oracle
- Trader

But to be honest with you, I hope both Silk Road and Tunnel are among the cuts. This way they can remove eight kingdom cards and add nine. 92 physical cards would then be removed and 99 will be added, meaning both the new set and the update pack would have only one blank card each.

[ems57fcva]

I wonder how far these second editions will go? Will Dark Ages get one? It'd be nice to finally see Rebuild and Cultist go, but I'm not sure there are enough other cards to be replaced. Adventures? I hope not, I'd hate to see Miser replaced. Or is Hinterlands it?

I assume that Dark Ages 2E is ready and waiting to be announced.  In past musing about second editions, DXV has listed a number of things that he would like to see changed.  So I am sure that it will be part of this binge of releases. Beyond that:

• Alchemy 2E:  No way.  DXV has made remarks like "Ideally, Alchemy would be allowed to go out of print".  He will not touch it.
• Cornucopia & Guilds: Maybe, but it is not a given that there is enough wrong with them to justify an update.  Also, Guilds is a more recent release and that may argue against doing an update at this time.
• Everything else is recent enough that doing an update probably is not a good idea.  Those sets have also benefited from the lessons learned for the past sets, but lessons have now been learned from the newer mechanics that these sets have.

[CaptainTheo]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

Cornucopia feels like a very solid set with the only card that could be potentially considered a dud being Fortune Teller.

The only one in Guilds I can think of that is considered particularly weak is Taxman and I like the art on that card.

[chipperMDW]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

Rebuild is pretty much guaranteed to go away if there is a 2E.

Cornucopia feels like a very solid set with the only card that could be potentially considered a dud being Fortune Teller.

A Cornucopia 2E could, potentially, just add cards, turning it from a small set into a normal-sized set. (If that happened, it would presumably have to be done at the same time as something similar happening to Guilds.) I'll bet some Prizes would be replaced, though.

[Oyvind]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I can see these cards leaving, as DXV has actually called them out as design mistakes, could be improved upon or bad-to-print cards:

- Band of Misfits
- Cultist
- Procession
- Rebuild
- Sage
- Storeroom
- Urchin

In addition, do we really need Beggar and Pillage? Will you really miss these cards? That’s nine cards in total, just saying.

[JW]

- Procession

You can take my Processions over my dead Fortresses.

[NoMoreFun]

I don't think Ruins add that much to the game considering how much space they take up. "Slightly less bad Curse" isn't that interesting and Charlatan opens up better ways to do that. Death Cart is a very clever design so if Ruins stay I hope there are more cards that interestingly draw on the fact that Ruins are Actions - but I wouldn't miss it that much.

Shelters are nice but they don't really impact the game that much unless Necropolis is the only village, or there's a Way.

With both of them, there's space taken up to account for 5 and 6 player games. Is it worth it?

Losing those 2 frees up 68 cards of space - 6 new cards.

In general I'd like to see non supply cards be more general (like Spoils or Horses) and less an extension of one card (like Mercenary).

500 card Dark Ages seems to add less to the game than 400 Card Menagerie, and even 300 Card Renaissance and Empires. Dark Ages is an advanced enough expansion in terms of rules to handle Landscapes.

[NoMoreFun]

Cornucopia definitely has duds (Harvest), overpowered cards (Hunting Party), and irritatingly swingy cards (Tournament - though I'd miss the "Prize" concept).

Guilds is fine. Masterpiece is weak and could be an Event but it's fine. I actually like Taxman. I just wish there was more of its core mechanics (Overpay and Coffers), especially more "fee for service" cards like Butcher, one of my favourite designs. Overpay may be awkward with phasing out "When you buy", but "When you gain, you may pay $ to..." would make Herald much more fun.

The 2 sets could be formally combined, which is an opportunity for Harvest to be replaced with a card that uses Coffers (though update packs may preclude that), or Overpay.

[Imrahil3]

There are a lot of cards that interact with Ruins in interesting ways. Most of them serve simply to nerf Looter cards (Way of the Pig, Way of the Horse, Swap), but they’re also way more interesting than Curses with cards that care about what type a card is (Courtier, Transmute).

I agree that Dark Ages in general doesn’t need a 2E.

[Commodore Chuckles]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

[NoMoreFun]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

If Rogue came out in a different set, I'd assume it was a "fixed" Knights.

But the pile named after Donald's family and friends is unlikely to be cut out.

[ehunt]

I'm wondering why Dark Ages needs a second edition. That feels like a solid set with almost no duds. I'm struggling to think of a single card in the set that feels like it needs replacing actually, despite it being a very large set.

I agree that the set is very solid but there are two outliers: Rebuild and Cultist are ridiculously overpowered.

Urchin is also OP - a very stupid and unfun card, if you ask me. And does anyone actually like the Knights?

knights are great!

re: cornucopia i think tournament could use a nerfing