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[spineflu]

https://www.riograndegames.com/2022/01/dominion-seaside-2nd-edition-announced/

Seaside is getting a second edition. Hooray! There will be 9 new cards and an update pack for those customers who already own the first edition of Seaside. A few cards will also get minor errata, but will not appear in the update pack.

It’s been a long time coming! At first, I thought Seaside 2E would follow soon after Intrigue 2E, then for years, it didn’t happen. It came about really from a wave of work on Dominion during the pandemic, that started with the upcoming Allies expansion. I gradually warmed to the idea and now it’s, well, not that far off.

So far we expect Seaside 2E in people’s hands in April (in English; we don’t know about other languages, but German, Japanese, and Dutch will probably not be far behind). I will update everyone if the date changes or becomes more pinned down. And I expect to do previews just before the release.

So until then, you do at least get to speculate: what cards are leaving?

[spineflu]

nine cards out, my guess is:
(for weakness)
Haven
Navigator
Lookout

(extra component rebalance - cost goes down if you don't have to include mats, coins)
PShip (maybe replaced)
Island (replaced with a version that just does "set aside")
Native Village (maybe replaced)
Embargo (replaced with a version that uses the card itself as the embargo token, which emphasizes 'you don't get to place multiples of these for throne stuff')

(other)
Wharf (too centralizing/automatic)
Merchant Ship (replaced with a 'Now and Next turn, +$2 +1 Buy' card)

[Eran of Arcadia]

Seaside was the first expansion I got, for Christmas 2012, and along with Dark Ages the one whose cards I've played the most, so I'm excited to see what's new.

[J Reggie]

I was just thinking about the idea that the +buy should be moved from Wharf to Merchant Ship for balance, but I highly doubt that's going to happen. I'd say Sea Hag is likely to be removed for the same reasons as Saboteur. Maybe Explorer will be taken out and replaced with the best $5 ever.

[spineflu]

its really weird that seaside had 12 blanks, per the wiki. could just full on add a kingdom pile, no removals.

[SirSlugma]

Hoping Lookout survives somehow; it's still one of my favorite Seaside cards.

[GendoIkari]

We don't know that 9 cards will be removed; right? The other sets each had 6 removed and 7 added.

[spineflu]

We don't know that 9 cards will be removed; right? The other sets each had 6 removed and 7 added.

correct

[JW]

Fantastic news! I predict 8 removals. The first seven seem clear to me: Embargo, Pearl Diver, Lookout, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Sea Hag, Explorer.

Donald seems to have recognized that Distant Lands is what Islands should have been, but that doesn't mean he'll cut Island. Merchant Ship might be cut to make room for a stronger and more interesting card. The suspense!

[silverspawn]

nine cards out, my guess is:
(for weakness)
Lookout

[spineflu]

nine cards out, my guess is:
(for weakness)
Lookout

i mean like, "feelsbadness" more than weakness with lookout, especially for the newer/casual player who gets prov-prov-gold with it

[GendoIkari]

We all know that Lookout is hands down the best 3-4$ trasher.

[Erick648]

Fantastic news! I predict 8 removals. The first seven seem clear to me: Embargo, Pearl Diver, Lookout, Navigator, Pirate Ship, Sea Hag, Explorer.

Donald seems to have recognized that Distant Lands is what Islands should have been, but that doesn't mean he'll cut Island. Merchant Ship might be cut to make room for a stronger and more interesting card. The suspense!

This list makes a lot of sense to me.  Lookout isn’t weak, but it could be replaced with something less scary to new players, just like how some of the other removed cards got similar replacements.

For the eighth removal, I’m guessing Native Village.  It’s not a bad card, but if he’s getting rid of Pirate Ship and replacing Island’s mat with a simple “set this aside with another card,” getting rid of the last remaining mat seems like it would be too tempting.  And unlike Island, Native Village can’t really work without its mat, although we would likely see a replacement with the same general functionality that didn’t require a mat.

EDIT: It just occurred to me that Pearl Diver and Navigator may be immune for the same reason as Harem: They depict real people.

[silverspawn]

unIronically, lookout will definitely be cut. Would bet on it over any other card. Donald described it as the dud of the expansion if I remember right, and his take is what matters

[ClouduHieh]

I remember getting a lot of grief when I said lookout was a horrible card, and now it’s most likely one of the cards being replaced. I also think that navigator, haven, sea hag, explorer, merchant ship, pearl diver, and cutpurse will be on the chopping block too. As for embargo I doubt he would cut that, because then what would we do with the embargo tokens that only work with the one card, just like island, what would we do with the island mat.

And if lookout does get replaced, you guys need to turn all your grief on the designer and not me, because if the designer is replacing a dud, you shouldn’t be giving me grief when I say it’s a horrible card. Because it clearly is! We all have cards we like and hate and we’re all entitled to hate certain cards. If you still think lookout is a great card then good for you.

And I can understand why it’s a good idea to replace some cards from seaside, it’s mostly for those who haven’t bought it yet. Seaside is kind of near the bottom of barrel for me, all the cards I think that might get replaced, I’d rather not play with. And I’m sure I’m not the only that sees that seaside doesn’t offer much. I mean alchemy doesn’t offer much, but mostly because it’s too small to play alone. But seaside is the second expansion I would rather not play with if we’re not playing with other expansions. I don’t bother playing these expansions alone: prosperity, seaside, guilds and alchemy. The rest of the expansions offer lots of stuff and I still enjoy playing them separately.
So It makes sense to make seaside more worth getting. There’s still plenty of people who haven’t bought seaside yet. And even though it’s the expansion that introduced us to durations, most people get encouraged to buy one of the expansions like adventures or empires over seaside. So it would make sense to make some more interesting durations too. Dominion players who are looking for more simplistic expansions still have hinterlands and intrigue which have more variety going for them. And obviously intrigue got the upgrade a long time ago.

[silverspawn]

One problem is that language by default conflates design and power level. "Good" and "best" is used for both; you could only say "strong" and "weak" for power, but people don't. Lookout is (ironic but unironically true) quite strong, but it's arguably a bad design, especially for beginners. The part where you trash your good cards sometimes is irks, and will be overrated by beginners relative to the trashing, and the part where you trash a card from your deck will be underrated by beginners because it's a sort of hidden card draw. So it will look much weaker than it really is, and they will refuse to play it when they should, and sometimes they will play it and feel bad as a result.

[Awaclus]

I remember getting a lot of grief when I said lookout was a horrible card, and now it’s most likely one of the cards being replaced.

Well, you got one post politely explaining why it's considered a powerful card by competitive players, and another post going into less detail complementing the former. Perhaps you've gotten a lot of grief over that somewhere else.

[chipperMDW]

I wonder how the removed cards will be handled on dominion.games. It doesn't have the removed Base Set and Intrigue cards, but if I remember correctly, they had already been removed before it launched, so they were just never in.

I just noticed that the Steam page for the other (Temple Gates) electronic Dominion apparently has DLC for the removed Base Set and Intrigue cards.

[grrgrrgrr]

I'm gonna be honest, I have mixed feelings about this shift. 8 cuts is pretty drastic. In Base and Intrigue, there were a lot more obvious examples of complete duds and guess what, both sets had at least one worthless card that survived the cut (Base had Bureaucrat, Intrigue had Harem). And 2E Base even has Harbinger, which I think now qualifies as a complete dud.

And in all honestness, I hope Sea Hag stays. Attacks doing something for the user is not a one-size-fits-all rule, and Sea Hag is also less automatic than Witch or most other Cursers. And if we were to get rid of an Attack, I'd rather see Cutpurse go, as that feels like a poor man's Militia in 99% of the cases.

If I were to rank Seaside cards by how badly they deserve to be cut, I'd probably get:

S: Navigator, Pearl Diver
A: Embargo, Pirate Ship, Explorer, Cutpurse
B: Merchant Ship, Island, Haven
C: Sea Hag, Lookout, Treasure Map
D: Treasury, Smugglers, Lighthouse, Native Village
E: Rest

EDIT: Can't resist the urge to relook at this tierlist, and reposition some cards. And the poster below me is completely right about Harbinger lol.

[Jack Rudd]

Harbinger is fine. They can't all be the best $3 card ever.

[LastFootnote]

I'm gonna be honest, I have mixed feelings about this shift. 8 cuts is pretty drastic. In Base and Intrigue, there were a lot more obvious examples of complete duds and guess what, both sets had at least one worthless card that survived the cut (Base had Bureaucrat, Intrigue had Harem). And 2E Base even has Harbinger, which I think now qualifies as a complete dud.

The question is, are those sets now a lot better than they used to be? And I think the answer is pretty clearly yes.

[brokoli]

Honestly I'm excited but really worried at the same time. In my opinion, the only cards that deserve to leave are : Pirate Ship, Pearl Diver, Navigator.
I'm fine about cutting Embargo if it is replaced by a better designed card on this mechanism (for example putting the embargo token or whatever it is on-buy).

Otherwise I enjoy all the other cards, Island is one of my all-time favorites and I still haven't mourned the Coppersmith.

[Cuzz]

Navigator is weak powerwise and sifting isn’t something that other cards don’t do.

Trash at the risk of blowing up good stuff isn’t something any other card does (well, Junk Dealer and Upgrade technically do but then you are actively gambling, having no junk in hand and only hoping to draw into junk) so Lookout is unique to some degree.

Coppersmith also did something no other card does 

[anordinaryman]

Honestly wharf should be removed. It’s too strong and does everything. If it didn’t have the +buy it would still be super strong and worth it. It just gives too much, and if I had a time machine it’s definitely one of 7 seaside cards I’d rethink. And the second edition is kind of a time machine.

Also, I have a feeling 7 cards will be replaced and we get 2 extra— for a few reasons: seaside already has more blank cards, and if any of NV, island, or pirate ship are removed (incredibly likely that pirate ship is removed) the lack of Mats adds room for more new cards. We might even only lose 6 cards.

[silverspawn]

Navigator is weak powerwise and sifting isn’t something that other cards don’t do.

Trash at the risk of blowing up good stuff isn’t something any other card does (well, Junk Dealer and Upgrade technically do but then you are actively gambling, having no junk in hand and only hoping to draw into junk) so Lookout is unique to some degree.

Coppersmith also did something no other card does 

Not really though after Bank. And Bank has a more reasonable power level, too.