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[faust]

This is a mess. We need to consolidate.

Agreed. Let's lynch Dylan.

[scolapasta]

Hi all, sorry things got busy in the last couple of days - let me try to catch up tonight.

[hypercube]

Truth be told, I've been watching these posts with interest but not had a lot of time to post. I find it laughable that I have even a nugget of suspicion laid upon me for congratulating cayvie on an excellent question and for assigning cayvie townpoints for it. I'm not expecting townpoints myself, but to call me scum based on "Oh man, I hadn't thought to ask that question that Town REALLY NEEDS AN ANSWER TO" being a reason (that is, in my mind, entirely logical) for townpoints is kind of silly.

Why does Town really need an answer to this question?

[hypercube]

I don't want to comment on things related to Eddie before Eddie does, but rereading the part of the game where Dylan claimed made him look a lot worse than I remembered.

He seems uninterested in the benefits of identifying a potential scum Dustbringer or inhibiting their ability to use their powers, like here:

As there can be multiple people in a given order, no one else should claim Dustbringer or not. Then if someone claims it later, use the spheres to use reporter to prove it. A Dustbringers claim without reporter is scum.

I think that if a town!Dustbringer claimed here they would be more likely to want to force a claim from any other Dustbringers. They'd understand that the Dustbringer powers are pretty scum-sided and that since they're town an other Dustbringer is more likely to be scum.

Here he says he didn't considered the possibility of a scum Dustbringer at all:

Ooh, good point. Yeah, I think it would work that way. However, this is assuming that scum could roll this order. A scum with extra vig power does seem maybe unbalanced. And looking back, I don't see anything that says whether the alignment of individuals in a given order is random or assigned or random in limited fashion, only that the numbers in each are random.

He explains this oversight with a misunderstanding of the setup, which doesn't say that the numbers are random, just that they aren't uniform across the orders. It's certainly possible for someone to misread the setup, but less likely that they'd misread it again after going back to correct themself.

I also don't think that there was a pressing force for him to claim when he did; less than half of everyone had claimed at that point. If he had serious objections to claiming he had time to bring them up and be convinced that a scum Dustbringer could exist. I think it's more likely that he's scum and claimed in hopes that that would make him look towny.

vote: Dylan

Also, I think cayvie's reaction to Dylan's claim was kind of strange, they bring up some good questions about how and why Dylan claimed but don't scumread him for it because of the use of spheres to make the mod-posted message. I admit I also found the claim more towny than maybe I should have because of that message, though.

[WestCoastDidds]

So it's an issue for you when I change my townreads on people, and you also accuse me of confirmation bias... Kinda sounds like a double bind, no?

It not an issue if you change reads. I use lists of towny people to narrow the lynchpool in large games like this, and then I kind of don't look back too much on the people I already excluded I think from context it's now clear that you were not doing that, but then I'm not sure I see the value of posting those reads at all.

tbh i'm trying to do what you describe because mafiauniverse really pushes towncoring hard and im trying to practice it. but uh i'm not used to thinking about the game this way and i'm still getting a handle on it.

What is towncoring?

Towncoring is establishing a bunch of townreads, around 1/3th of the game, publicly, and never considering they're scum for the rest of D1 in hopes that a lot of people do this so you find a group of players that everyone, including themselves, are townreading. That group becomes "town core", and now they can talk about other players among themselves and vote as a group, etc without risking being the lynch. It's a way to sort players by towniest instead of scummiest. It also seperates scum into "powerwolves", which is trying and being in the town core, and the rest, which can be useful.

It's not very useful, as starting from scumreads is better than from townreads. Overall it makes it pretty clear which scum are being lynched in order: you lynch low effort first. Our system's much better.

So, who's the Awaclus we're mislynching this game?

I think that is an interesting concept, if for no other reason than my town reads are stronger and more correct than my scum reads. In ADK's recent game, having a town core totally won us the day.

Sure seems like GHS or Dylan is the new Awa, although neither are Awaclusian. (also, Awa, come back. I miss you!)

[WestCoastDidds]

This is a mess. We need to consolidate.

We have three days, yeah?

[cayvie]

So it's an issue for you when I change my townreads on people, and you also accuse me of confirmation bias... Kinda sounds like a double bind, no?

It not an issue if you change reads. I use lists of towny people to narrow the lynchpool in large games like this, and then I kind of don't look back too much on the people I already excluded I think from context it's now clear that you were not doing that, but then I'm not sure I see the value of posting those reads at all.

tbh i'm trying to do what you describe because mafiauniverse really pushes towncoring hard and im trying to practice it. but uh i'm not used to thinking about the game this way and i'm still getting a handle on it.

What is towncoring?

MiX said it wrong.

Towncoring is a game-long strategy and outlook. It involves searching for mutual strong townreads, and using those to find a towncore of people who all mutually townread each other. Once you have that, everyone outside the core is considered the "Process of Elimination" or POE group and you lynch inside the POE.

The towncore's goal is to expand (by forming consensus that more and more players are town). There is a point at which the towncore reaches a certain size that, if it is accurate, victory becomes inevitable: the entire POE can be lynched one day at a time, and wolves are among it.

The issue is that so-called "deep wolves" can sneak into the towncore and stay there. So the issue can be, at some point, the towncore may start to doubt itself. And the decision becomes whether to stick to their guns and continue lynching the POE, or to reconsider the validity of the existing towncore.

[cayvie]

Also, I think cayvie's reaction to Dylan's claim was kind of strange, they bring up some good questions about how and why Dylan claimed but don't scumread him for it because of the use of spheres to make the mod-posted message. I admit I also found the claim more towny than maybe I should have because of that message, though.

What's strange about my reaction?

I identified that future use of the Dustbringer Reporter ability could be used amongst a scumteam to fakeclaim Dustbringer if they wanted to for some reason. But I find it exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened with Dylan, today. That would take some intense scum planning for dubious benefit.

[WestCoastDidds]

So it's an issue for you when I change my townreads on people, and you also accuse me of confirmation bias... Kinda sounds like a double bind, no?

It not an issue if you change reads. I use lists of towny people to narrow the lynchpool in large games like this, and then I kind of don't look back too much on the people I already excluded I think from context it's now clear that you were not doing that, but then I'm not sure I see the value of posting those reads at all.

tbh i'm trying to do what you describe because mafiauniverse really pushes towncoring hard and im trying to practice it. but uh i'm not used to thinking about the game this way and i'm still getting a handle on it.

What is towncoring?

MiX said it wrong.

Towncoring is a game-long strategy and outlook. It involves searching for mutual strong townreads, and using those to find a towncore of people who all mutually townread each other. Once you have that, everyone outside the core is considered the "Process of Elimination" or POE group and you lynch inside the POE.

The towncore's goal is to expand (by forming consensus that more and more players are town). There is a point at which the towncore reaches a certain size that, if it is accurate, victory becomes inevitable: the entire POE can be lynched one day at a time, and wolves are among it.

The issue is that so-called "deep wolves" can sneak into the towncore and stay there. So the issue can be, at some point, the towncore may start to doubt itself. And the decision becomes whether to stick to their guns and continue lynching the POE, or to reconsider the validity of the existing towncore.

I can see this as a strategy that is particularly effective among certain players who tend to need trust to work collabroatively. Coolio!

[MiX]

Hypercube is scum, Dylan is town, faust has been wanting to kill Dustbringers for a while now, let's not forget about that. No idea what that makes him, but voting Dylan there is not a coincidence.

Also I was wrong about towncoring, I was worried I got everything correctly there.

I still hate the distinction between town core and PoE, we already do that organically, no reason to tell scum exactly who can be lynched in any given day.

[MiX]

Truth be told, I've been watching these posts with interest but not had a lot of time to post. I find it laughable that I have even a nugget of suspicion laid upon me for congratulating cayvie on an excellent question and for assigning cayvie townpoints for it. I'm not expecting townpoints myself, but to call me scum based on "Oh man, I hadn't thought to ask that question that Town REALLY NEEDS AN ANSWER TO" being a reason (that is, in my mind, entirely logical) for townpoints is kind of silly.

Why does Town really need an answer to this question?

Why did you say this now, there's been at least 3 other people questioning this post.

[Rhand]

@Cayvie: I’m a bit surprised that you see that as a good tactic after our champs game where our abusing of the public town core gave us a sweep.

Have you seen it in effect at MU working out for town as well?

[hypercube]

Also, I think cayvie's reaction to Dylan's claim was kind of strange, they bring up some good questions about how and why Dylan claimed but don't scumread him for it because of the use of spheres to make the mod-posted message. I admit I also found the claim more towny than maybe I should have because of that message, though.

What's strange about my reaction?

I identified that future use of the Dustbringer Reporter ability could be used amongst a scumteam to fakeclaim Dustbringer if they wanted to for some reason. But I find it exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened with Dylan, today. That would take some intense scum planning for dubious benefit.

You also pointed out that Dylan wasn't really in a position where he had to claim and that there were good reasons to treat Dustbringers differently from Skybreakers and Edgedancers. Those things seemed to throw significant shade on his claim, so I was a bit surprised you trusted it anyways.

[hypercube]

Truth be told, I've been watching these posts with interest but not had a lot of time to post. I find it laughable that I have even a nugget of suspicion laid upon me for congratulating cayvie on an excellent question and for assigning cayvie townpoints for it. I'm not expecting townpoints myself, but to call me scum based on "Oh man, I hadn't thought to ask that question that Town REALLY NEEDS AN ANSWER TO" being a reason (that is, in my mind, entirely logical) for townpoints is kind of silly.

Why does Town really need an answer to this question?

Why did you say this now, there's been at least 3 other people questioning this post.

I just couldn't think of any possible reasoning why someone would think that question to be super important, so I wanted to ask directly for an explanation.

[MiX]

Also, I think cayvie's reaction to Dylan's claim was kind of strange, they bring up some good questions about how and why Dylan claimed but don't scumread him for it because of the use of spheres to make the mod-posted message. I admit I also found the claim more towny than maybe I should have because of that message, though.

What's strange about my reaction?

I identified that future use of the Dustbringer Reporter ability could be used amongst a scumteam to fakeclaim Dustbringer if they wanted to for some reason. But I find it exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened with Dylan, today. That would take some intense scum planning for dubious benefit.

You also pointed out that Dylan wasn't really in a position where he had to claim and that there were good reasons to treat Dustbringers differently from Skybreakers and Edgedancers. Those things seemed to throw significant shade on his claim, so I was a bit surprised you trusted it anyways.

Do you think he's not a Dustbringer?

[hypercube]

Also, I think cayvie's reaction to Dylan's claim was kind of strange, they bring up some good questions about how and why Dylan claimed but don't scumread him for it because of the use of spheres to make the mod-posted message. I admit I also found the claim more towny than maybe I should have because of that message, though.

What's strange about my reaction?

I identified that future use of the Dustbringer Reporter ability could be used amongst a scumteam to fakeclaim Dustbringer if they wanted to for some reason. But I find it exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened with Dylan, today. That would take some intense scum planning for dubious benefit.

You also pointed out that Dylan wasn't really in a position where he had to claim and that there were good reasons to treat Dustbringers differently from Skybreakers and Edgedancers. Those things seemed to throw significant shade on his claim, so I was a bit surprised you trusted it anyways.

Do you think he's not a Dustbringer?

If he's scum it's possible he's not a Dustbringer and someone else on the scum team is. That's less likely than him just being a scum Dustbringer though.

[MiX]

I don't see why cayvie can't throw shade and not scumread Dylan at the same time. I'm also fairly confident Dylan didn't have 50 infused spheres so he couldn't do anything useful anyway. I don't understand why people are scumreading Dylan besides not fullclaiming to Uncle (because that I would understand). He claimed, he spent stormlight, scum does it too...it feels like it's obfuscating anyone from having a real read on him.

[faust]

So it's an issue for you when I change my townreads on people, and you also accuse me of confirmation bias... Kinda sounds like a double bind, no?

It not an issue if you change reads. I use lists of towny people to narrow the lynchpool in large games like this, and then I kind of don't look back too much on the people I already excluded I think from context it's now clear that you were not doing that, but then I'm not sure I see the value of posting those reads at all.

tbh i'm trying to do what you describe because mafiauniverse really pushes towncoring hard and im trying to practice it. but uh i'm not used to thinking about the game this way and i'm still getting a handle on it.

What is towncoring?

MiX said it wrong.

Towncoring is a game-long strategy and outlook. It involves searching for mutual strong townreads, and using those to find a towncore of people who all mutually townread each other. Once you have that, everyone outside the core is considered the "Process of Elimination" or POE group and you lynch inside the POE.

The towncore's goal is to expand (by forming consensus that more and more players are town). There is a point at which the towncore reaches a certain size that, if it is accurate, victory becomes inevitable: the entire POE can be lynched one day at a time, and wolves are among it.

The issue is that so-called "deep wolves" can sneak into the towncore and stay there. So the issue can be, at some point, the towncore may start to doubt itself. And the decision becomes whether to stick to their guns and continue lynching the POE, or to reconsider the validity of the existing towncore.

Oh okay. Well it doesn't seem particularly useful still.

[faust]

I don't see why cayvie can't throw shade and not scumread Dylan at the same time. I'm also fairly confident Dylan didn't have 50 infused spheres so he couldn't do anything useful anyway. I don't understand why people are scumreading Dylan besides not fullclaiming to Uncle (because that I would understand). He claimed, he spent stormlight, scum does it too...it feels like it's obfuscating anyone from having a real read on him.

Not claiming to Eddie is by miles the bestest alignment indicating thing that happened all game.

Plus cayvie was suspecting me for throwing shade at her and not scumreading her, would be a little disingenuous if she did the same thing.

[MiX]

I don't see why cayvie can't throw shade and not scumread Dylan at the same time. I'm also fairly confident Dylan didn't have 50 infused spheres so he couldn't do anything useful anyway. I don't understand why people are scumreading Dylan besides not fullclaiming to Uncle (because that I would understand). He claimed, he spent stormlight, scum does it too...it feels like it's obfuscating anyone from having a real read on him.

Not claiming to Eddie is by miles the bestest alignment indicating thing that happened all game.

Plus cayvie was suspecting me for throwing shade at her and not scumreading her, would be a little disingenuous if she did the same thing.

I think town's as scared as scum when it comes to third-parties. Which I guess would mean that he's 50/50 scum, which are good odds...hmm.

I might have to reread him.

[faust]

I think town's as scared as scum when it comes to third-parties. Which I guess would mean that he's 50/50 scum, which are good odds...hmm.

I think town's as likely as scum to post at 21:53:49. Which I guess would mean that you're 50/50 scum, which are good odds... hmm.

[faust]

I think town's as scared as scum when it comes to third-parties. Which I guess would mean that he's 50/50 scum, which are good odds...hmm.

I think town's as likely as scum to post at 21:53:49. Which I guess would mean that you're 50/50 scum, which are good odds... hmm.

Sorry, I used my timestamp, should have used the time tag.

[faust]

But more importantly, what do you think town!Dylan was scared of?

[MiX]

But more importantly, what do you think town!Dylan was scared of?

Death.

[MiX]

I think town's as scared as scum when it comes to third-parties. Which I guess would mean that he's 50/50 scum, which are good odds...hmm.

I think town's as likely as scum to post at 21:53:49. Which I guess would mean that you're 50/50 scum, which are good odds... hmm.

Town's more likely than scum to post at (insert time here).