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[ashersky]

Any lynch order should not list themselves last, actually.  (There's an argument for not listing yourself at all, but I think any player who is town and believes Dylan is town should list Dylan lower than themselves.)

As for stuff not making sense to people, that's on them, I suppose.  Understanding is not required, anyway.  Just belief.

There are only two players that we should be willing to lynch right now: MiX and Dylan.

MiX because he is the last remaining scum, and Dylan because if there is a doctor, he's lying.  Those are the best explanations for the evening shenanigans.

[yuma]

Vote: yuma. At some point we will quit trying to be fancy and will actually lynch the person who throughout the game made the strongest defenses of lynched scum and has been one of the two or three people that has pushed the hardest against town.  I hope it's today.

My single and only response.

I am not trying to be fancy. I legitimately feel like I am really lost in reading people in this game. It sucks. Sorry? I think we are still going to win despite that. I actually kinda feel embarrassed how bad my reads have been this game.

I did have the strongest defenses of confirmed scum.

I have been quite strong against players that are now confirmed townie or nearly confirmed townie.

I hope it isn't today because I am selfish and want to not be out of a game and the next game probably won't start until this is finished. So that it takes a day longer than it needs to is lame, but that is just the personal gain for me.

[Swowl]

Yeah, quoting ash, but you caught that.

You're right on dylan - swan, that was a typo, it should've been swan > dylan.

I'm not going to explain any detail tonight, as it's 1am on a work night. But honestly I'm not sure there's much detail as this only showed order, not distance.

Here it is again, with distance, where the fewer >, the easier it would be for me to swap them.


yuma > ash >>> mix  >>>>> swan > dylan > didds >>∞>> scolapasta

Hope that makes sense.

ok get some sleep... and all good but then come back and explain why Dylan is more lynch able than WCD?

[yuma]

vote: ashersky

[Swowl]

Any lynch order should not list themselves last, actually.  (There's an argument for not listing yourself at all, but I think any player who is town and believes Dylan is town should list Dylan lower than themselves.)

As for stuff not making sense to people, that's on them, I suppose.  Understanding is not required, anyway.  Just belief.

There are only two players that we should be willing to lynch right now: MiX and Dylan.

MiX because he is the last remaining scum, and Dylan because if there is a doctor, he's lying.  Those are the best explanations for the evening shenanigans.

... who are you and what have you done with Ashersky?

[ashersky]

We have four votes on three players.  That is a clear indication of where this game is -- lost and meandering.

I feel like players aren't as calm as they can be.  Assuming scum kills again, we still have two mislynches before 3-player LYLO.  And by that point, if it were to actually get there, it would be pretty clear who is bad.

If the doctor keeps protecting, or MiX keeps no killing for some crazy reason (he seems wed to this idea), we have three mislynches (6, 5, 4 alive after each) before we have to even worry about another kill.  And a 4 alive, NL is the right answer, if kills started up. 

So a minimum of two mislynches for free, even three.  MiX knows the game is hopeless, hence the odd gambit.

[ashersky]

vote: ashersky

E tu Brute?

[ashersky]

I'm at L-2, MiX at 1 vote, yuma at 1 vote.

[yuma]

vote: ashersky

E tu Brute?

Oh man. That is super embarrasing. I didn't mean to post that...

Awkward. Like super awkward. Here let me fix that...

vote: MIX

[Swowl]

if I am forced to every lynch between MiX and Ash my mind is made on who it is. I will not be lynching either today.

[yuma]

Like I had posted the vote along with some text of why I wanted to go with voting ashersky, but then as a I was typing it I realized that man.... that was a lame reason for voting... and erased the text and then I guess forgot what I was doing and... hit post w/o also erasing the vote.

Anyways, the reason I was going to vote for ashersky is that I am more afraid of him being scum than actually thinking he is scum. If he is scum, he is fooling me. And he could do that. He has done it before (so bravo). And voting someone because you fear their play is kinda lame and makes the game unfun for players that are perceived (or actually are) good.

So I am not voting for ashersky right now. That might change if it needs to, but not right now.

[Dylan32]

..

There are only two players that we should be willing to lynch right now: MiX and Dylan.

MiX because he is the last remaining scum, and Dylan because if there is a doctor, he's lying.  Those are the best explanations for the evening shenanigans.

Ok, we need to lay this to rest right now. If anyone has a town PR besides UB, claim it now so town can win. If scum wants to counterclaim to get me lynched, feel free to do that as well haha.

All remaining players need to commit to lynching anyone who tries to counter claim me after this game day before lynching me, because the only reason anyone would put off the cc at this point is to try to lynch me at LYLO, which would only give scum the win. So town, counterclaim me today if you can, otherwise, you get lynched first.  I want everyone to say whether or not they’ll agree to that.  Functionally, all agreeing to this plan does is eliminate a potential tactic from scum’s arsenal for how to play out LYLO, so for town there is no reason to not agree, unless you buy Ash’s “The hidden doctor is amazing and just wants town to figure it out for themselves” comment.

I don’t know of anyone on f.ds that would do this, but in this situation, I would go so far as to say that if I were scum and a town PR waited until after this game day to cc, it would be such an anti-town play that I would probably never join a game with that person again.  The possibility of being on the same town team as that person would be so not fun worrying about if they are scum or just willfully anti-town town, so I would rather just not be in the same game.  Now, fortunately, I know this isn’t going to happen, so my sleepy-because-still-awake-way-after-bedtime rant is basically meaningless, but if it was possible, I would mean it.

Also, a page ago, Ash, you said you don’t believe there is a doctor, hence your vote on MiX. However you are pretty much the only person who is seriously trying to keep open the possibility I’m lying when all evidence (except for the lack of NKs which has other simpler explanations than an unclaimed doctor) is to the contrary.  I especially want to know if you would be on board with both A) lynching me first today if I’m counterclaimed, and B) lynching the other person first if they wait until a later game day, because if anyone in the game has been possibly dropping breadcrumbs or trying to set up that play or keep it alive as an option for scum, it’s been you.

[Dylan32]

Vote: yuma. At some point we will quit trying to be fancy and will actually lynch the person who throughout the game made the strongest defenses of lynched scum and has been one of the two or three people that has pushed the hardest against town.  I hope it's today.

My single and only response.

I am not trying to be fancy. I legitimately feel like I am really lost in reading people in this game. It sucks. Sorry? I think we are still going to win despite that. I actually kinda feel embarrassed how bad my reads have been this game.

I did have the strongest defenses of confirmed scum.

I have been quite strong against players that are now confirmed townie or nearly confirmed townie.

I hope it isn't today because I am selfish and want to not be out of a game and the next game probably won't start until this is finished. So that it takes a day longer than it needs to is lame, but that is just the personal gain for me.

If you’re town, I feel you and remember having games like that, and I’m sorry. But I’m not saying you’re trying to be fancy, the rest of town is. Like you’re interactions with both dead scum D2 are the kind of interactions you dream of finding when scumhunting, and yet here they are and it feels like no one is even taking them seriously, instead obsessing over the Ash/MiX debates.  In a game where of several different options, Occam’s Razor has held (person who scummily didn’t hammer the scummy D1 wagon was simply scum not hammering scum, not some unfortunately misplay or excuse from town), it seems at least likely enough to warrant a lynch one of the next 2 days (preferably earlier than later) in order to at the very least rule out the most obvious and simplest explanation for who the partner is.

[Dylan32]

Like your* interactions... stupid autocorrect

[MiX]

This game's solved from my perspective, I'm gonna say why Swan and Didds are 100% town in a bit, which means I know the 3 lynches we can do.

I can do a freebie, Dylan is town because of their claim. No context here.

Just looked at VCA, it says LaLight's obv!town lol, this is why we no lynch so that town's not divided. Obviously in retrospect a mislynch's better than nothing but that's because scum's throwing.

not asking for a mix wall - I mean feel free if you want - but i ran a pretty deep vca on LL and came to the exact opposite conclusion. so just broad strokes would be appreciated on why you think LL was obv town plz

LaLight was the scum pushed wagon. It's not enough to clear them but, yeah. Joseph's flippy floppy on LaLight plus his vote on them kinda says LL was town. Not like I think we shouldn't had lynched LL, just thinking there were better things to do, not that it matters.

The "insta-win" argument is based on Dylan being the liar.  Doctor claims, 1v1 with Dylan, if we lynch correctly we win. 

That's not the same as what either DatSwan or MiX are saying, which helps DatSwan creep up the scumminess ladder.

MiX is the last scum.  If he's not, it's got to be Dylan due to hidden doctor.

If we lynch incorrectly we also win the 1v1. God how can you not know your own setup.

1) hidden doctor doesn't exist. If they do, they claim now. we win. if they wait one more day we do not win by GTD. there is no reason for them to of not said anything yesterday. it was a insta-win for town if they did.

This seems super, super wrong to me.

A doctor claim does not insta-win.  Here are a few reasons, off the top of my head:

1) we lynch the doctor, so the game continues
2) we lynch the cop, so the game continues
3) the doctor is actually a VT

I see after writing this that your wording is not "insta-win" but just "win."  That's probably more correct, but not definitive. 

What is GTD?

This is a scumslip because you're not like this as town.

1) Then we lynch the "cop" and win
2) Then we lynch the "doc" and win
3) Then they played terribly, why on earth would anyone cc the claimed cop without a reason

This is just the biggest stretch in mafia history. If there IS a doc, it's most likely Dylan anyway.

So a minimum of two mislynches for free, even three.  MiX knows the game is hopeless, hence the odd gambit.

This game is indeed hopeless if I don't NK twice in a row. So why the hell would I do that?

[MiX]

Something I thought about in the IRL night, and I hope Dylan agrees with this:

Dylan is an IC, so they'll be the NK. When there's 5 people alive, the UB should claim, since that's the last time the UB can claim and not be cc'd. But given we have an IC alive, why wait?

Why not have the UB claim right now? That narrows down the lynch pool to 5 people, and we can lynch 3 of them, so that's already really high odds of winning without any reads.

Dylan, do you agree?

[MiX]

Vote: yuma. At some point we will quit trying to be fancy and will actually lynch the person who throughout the game made the strongest defenses of lynched scum and has been one of the two or three people that has pushed the hardest against town.  I hope it's today.

My single and only response.

I am not trying to be fancy. I legitimately feel like I am really lost in reading people in this game. It sucks. Sorry? I think we are still going to win despite that. I actually kinda feel embarrassed how bad my reads have been this game.

I did have the strongest defenses of confirmed scum.

I have been quite strong against players that are now confirmed townie or nearly confirmed townie.

I hope it isn't today because I am selfish and want to not be out of a game and the next game probably won't start until this is finished. So that it takes a day longer than it needs to is lame, but that is just the personal gain for me.

If you’re town, I feel you and remember having games like that, and I’m sorry. But I’m not saying you’re trying to be fancy, the rest of town is. Like you’re interactions with both dead scum D2 are the kind of interactions you dream of finding when scumhunting, and yet here they are and it feels like no one is even taking them seriously, instead obsessing over the Ash/MiX debates.  In a game where of several different options, Occam’s Razor has held (person who scummily didn’t hammer the scummy D1 wagon was simply scum not hammering scum, not some unfortunately misplay or excuse from town), it seems at least likely enough to warrant a lynch one of the next 2 days (preferably earlier than later) in order to at the very least rule out the most obvious and simplest explanation for who the partner is.

Going on this, yuma can be scum and all, but they haven't actually protected scum. I don't think they did a good effort saving Joseph D1, and in the other days he wasn't pushing very hard on town. It's definitely possible yuma just has terrible reads.

Also I'm positive ash is scum because he's coming up with these terrible setup analysis which are the only way anyone can reason themselves into no NK. That and he's tunneled me from like D3.

[WestCoastDidds]

All remaining players need to commit to lynching anyone who tries to counter claim me after this game day before lynching me, because the only reason anyone would put off the cc at this point is to try to lynch me at LYLO, which would only give scum the win. So town, counterclaim me today if you can, otherwise, you get lynched first.  I want everyone to say whether or not they’ll agree to that.  Functionally, all agreeing to this plan does is eliminate a potential tactic from scum’s arsenal for how to play out LYLO, so for town there is no reason to not agree, unless you buy Ash’s “The hidden doctor is amazing and just wants town to figure it out for themselves” comment.

I’ll commit to that.

[ashersky]

Phone posting

@dylan

If anyone claimed, I would lynch them first every time.  Then, if they were telling the truth, I’d push to lynch MiX, then you.

Why?  If you pulled this off as scum, you deserve to last to the end.

[MiX]

Phone posting

@dylan

If anyone claimed, I would lynch them first every time.  Then, if they were telling the truth, I’d push to lynch MiX, then you.

Why?  If you pulled this off as scum, you deserve to last to the end.

I agree and commit to this plan...if they claim today, which isn't part of dylan's thing. Although I am willing to give scum!Dylan the win because they did an insane gambit and it worked.

[ashersky]

Look, here’s the deal — if we can all just lynch MiX here, we win.

If I’m wrong, I will open the next day with a vote on myself and literally no other words if that will satisfy everyone.  Then you still have a day or two to find scum.

[ashersky]

Phone posting

@dylan

If anyone claimed, I would lynch them first every time.  Then, if they were telling the truth, I’d push to lynch MiX, then you.

Why?  If you pulled this off as scum, you deserve to last to the end.

I agree and commit to this plan...if they claim today, which isn't part of dylan's thing. Although I am willing to give scum!Dylan the win because they did an insane gambit and it worked.

Man, he definitely deserves the win if he’s lying. Especially given his circumstances loses partners so early.

[MiX]

Look, here’s the deal — if we can all just lynch MiX here, we win.

If I’m wrong, I will open the next day with a vote on myself and literally no other words if that will satisfy everyone.  Then you still have a day or two to find scum.

I would offer you the same plan but reverse, except I kinda wanna win this game, which you don't seem interested in.

Face it, you just want to lynch me to see if you're right or wrong.

Phone posting

@dylan

If anyone claimed, I would lynch them first every time.  Then, if they were telling the truth, I’d push to lynch MiX, then you.

Why?  If you pulled this off as scum, you deserve to last to the end.

I agree and commit to this plan...if they claim today, which isn't part of dylan's thing. Although I am willing to give scum!Dylan the win because they did an insane gambit and it worked.

Man, he definitely deserves the win if he’s lying. Especially given his circumstances loses partners so early.

True. But I also think I should be playing to win.

[ashersky]

I mean, of course I want to see that I’m right.  I do feel strongly that I’m not only tunneling — I built a case based on what I’ve read, what I expect you would be capable of/think of doing as the lone remaining scum in a hopeless game, trying to find some way to keep things interesting and a sliver of hope alive.

I just want to crush that sliver.  Sorry.

If I was wrong, I think you’d just give in and let it happen, knowing we’d figure it out anyway, and you’d still get the win posthumously.

If you don’t want the auto self vote in exchange, how about a promise that I do everything in my ability to avenge the wrongness by finding the bad guy and hammering in your honor?

[MiX]

I mean, of course I want to see that I’m right.  I do feel strongly that I’m not only tunneling — I built a case based on what I’ve read, what I expect you would be capable of/think of doing as the lone remaining scum in a hopeless game, trying to find some way to keep things interesting and a sliver of hope alive.

I just want to crush that sliver.  Sorry.

If I was wrong, I think you’d just give in and let it happen, knowing we’d figure it out anyway, and you’d still get the win posthumously.

If you don’t want the auto self vote in exchange, how about a promise that I do everything in my ability to avenge the wrongness by finding the bad guy and hammering in your honor?

That's a good promise, but I wanted to do that myself!

How about this, let's scumhunt outside us two, then we lynch one of us and the other listens to the dead town. Does that sound good?

Because I can say a bunch of things about your (cayvie)'s D1, but it's gotten to the point where nothing influences my read on you other than your tunnel.