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[ashersky]

Are you trying to suggest that under the standard definition of scummy you can only apply it when you're certain someone is scum?

I'm trying to suggest that under the standard definition of scummy that you provided, it can only be applied when you can be certain that the action you are applying it to is more likely to be taken by scum.

And I am also suggesting that it is impossible to be certain of that due to human nature, historical record, etc.

[faust]

I happen to think your action was taken by you with a non-town alignment.

I just wish to know why you think that, if you don't also think it's more likely that I would take that action as scum.

It seems to me that you are comfortable talking about who is scum or town in terms of opinions, but when it comes to the likelihood of of an action being taken from town or scum, opinions are bad and only hard, undisputable facts (which are of course impossible to come by) are relevant. I can't say I get that, but at least I feel I understood something about your approach.

[faust]

Like, it seems to me that from ashersky's perspective.

- "I think X is town" is a useful statement even though you cannot be certain of it.
- "I think X is more likely to do Y as scum" is not a useful statement becuase you cannot be certain of it.

[ashersky]

I happen to think your action was taken by you with a non-town alignment.

I just wish to know why you think that, if you don't also think it's more likely that I would take that action as scum.

It seems to me that you are comfortable talking about who is scum or town in terms of opinions, but when it comes to the likelihood of of an action being taken from town or scum, opinions are bad and only hard, undisputable facts (which are of course impossible to come by) are relevant. I can't say I get that, but at least I feel I understood something about your approach.

I guess.

Whether or not a player is "towny" or "scummy" is subjective; it is based on the observer's opinions and experiences.  Saying "X is town" is different than saying "X is towny."  One is a verifiable fact and the other is an opinion.

When it comes to taking an action, for example "lying as town," I think I tend to apply the adjectives "towny" or "scummy" in a less subjective manner.  That is, I feel like we should be able to objectively agree that it is one or the other.  People's opinions vary, though, and we end up not agreeing, which is fine.  Some will say it is towny, others will say scummy.  Opinions aren't bad, per se, but I'd like them to be consistent.

[ashersky]

Like, it seems to me that from ashersky's perspective.

- "I think X is town" is a useful statement even though you cannot be certain of it.
- "I think X is more likely to do Y as scum" is not a useful statement becuase you cannot be certain of it.

The second statement is not the same as "I think Y is more likely to be done by scum."  The second statement is about a player, which makes it useful.

Scola not voting for two flipped mafia players is scummy.
Not voting for two flipped mafia players is scummy.

Those two are not equal (to me).

[cayvie]

can we talk about the game please

[Jimmmmm]

Are you trying to suggest that under the standard definition of scummy you can only apply it when you're certain someone is scum?

I'm trying to suggest that under the standard definition of scummy that you provided, it can only be applied when you can be certain that the action you are applying it to is more likely to be taken by scum.

And I am also suggesting that it is impossible to be certain of that due to human nature, historical record, etc.

I mean, obviously it's subjective.

[Jimmmmm]

When it comes to taking an action, for example "lying as town," I think I tend to apply the adjectives "towny" or "scummy" in a less subjective manner.  That is, I feel like we should be able to objectively agree that it is one or the other.  People's opinions vary, though, and we end up not agreeing, which is fine.  Some will say it is towny, others will say scummy.  Opinions aren't bad, per se, but I'd like them to be consistent.

I don't think "Is lying as Town scummy?" is a question that makes any sense. Lying as Town may or may not be pro-Town and lying may or may not be scummy.

[Jimmmmm]

can we talk about the game please

Yeah. I think there's a fair bit of Someone Is Wrong On The Internet Syndrome going around. Not pro-Town but not necessarily scummy.

[ashersky]

can we talk about the game please

Sure!  Vote for faust.  I believe he was assigned a non-town alignment.

[faust]

Request prod on Lekkit

[Glooble]

Here's what I would like to know: Glooble, why did you bring this up if you weren't going to vote for faust or major a case on him?

Because it seems like information town should have.

Also, maybe when I made the post I was thinking I was going to vote for faust, but I haven’t been able to.

The district QTs engender a kind of manufactured solidarity and trust that makes voting for your neighbor feel like a betrayal. It’s something a scum player could manipulate easily and I think that has me on my guard. Basically I keep second guessing myself on whether faust feels townie to me because he is and my gut reads are good or whether faust feels townie because he’s manipulating me.

[Glooble]

That being said I’m aware that time is running out and I need to vote somewhere. Discussion about lynching faust dominating the conversation while no one actually voted for him isn’t helpful either.

[MiX]

I lost my reply to all the ash shenanigans...and I don't care. Ash, I had a bunch of things to say, but I'll shorten to this: calling something scummy, for me, is the same as saying I think that person is scum because they did that action. It's shorthand for "in my experience I've seen that X is something scum does more than town on average and thus indicates to me that they are scum". Whatever definition people want to use that is grounded on literal probabilities are foolish.

Now, the game.

Here's what I would like to know: Glooble, why did you bring this up if you weren't going to vote for faust or major a case on him?

Are you faust's buddy?

That being said I’m aware that time is running out and I need to vote somewhere. Discussion about lynching faust dominating the conversation while no one actually voted for him isn’t helpful either.

No one, you say, huh...last time I checked I was in this game.

[WestCoastDidds]

Good morning! Wow....I like thinking about words and that is a lot more content than I’d have ever expected. Words are slippery and ambiguous, but the only tools we have for playing this game in this medium.

At the end of it all, I feel like I know Ashersky somewhat better, and I also think that it would beyond awesome if we could all actually sit and talk sometime. I’m not sure anyone would feel insulted or misunderstood if we could do this with eye contact and gestures.

Anyway.... the game!

Remember when LaLight got that gift from the heavens? That was cool.

Or how about a vote count? The last one I see is on my page 52, and scolapasta was way out in front.

Deadline is tomorrow at 9pm-ish FT

[EFHW]

^^ Thanks Jimmmmm. You saved me a lot of typing.

For me, who everyone finds dumber than anyone else, could you break it down like this?

Is lying as town a good thing or a bad thing?
Is doing a bad thing scummy?
Are scummy things anti-town or pro-town?

Anti-town is different from scummy.

Lying as town is anti-town. 

I don't know faust's alignment, and the information here doesn't help me decide what it is.

[scolapasta]

Or how about a vote count? The last one I see is on my page 52, and scolapasta was way out in front.

I mean there's also one on 57 where I'm less in front.

So most games have all this debate about word meanings? Or is this just the quarantine making everyone a little extra stir crazy?

[EFHW]

vote: ashersky.

This is the second day in a row he has cluttered the thread with endless arguments after having already made his point the first time.

[faust]

vote: ashersky.

This is the second day in a row he has cluttered the thread with endless arguments after having already made his point the first time.

And this makes him scum why?

[WestCoastDidds]

Or how about a vote count? The last one I see is on my page 52, and scolapasta was way out in front.

I mean there's also one on 57 where I'm less in front.

So most games have all this debate about word meanings? Or is this just the quarantine making everyone a little extra stir crazy?

I find these particular debates unusual. There are often questions about why someone said something, but not often at a semantic level and to this extent. Thanks for the tip on a more recent vote count. I’m better once I’ve had coffee....

[WestCoastDidds]

Vote Count 2.WCD

scolapasta (3): faust, ADK, WCD
faust (2): MiX, LaLight
Ashersky (2): Cayvie, EFHW

Not Voting (7): Glooble, E!, Jimmm, Ashersky, scolapasta, Lekkit, Shraeye

With 14 alive, takes 8 players to lynch.
Deadline for Day 2 is April 2nd at 9:12pm Forum Time.

[EFHW]

vote: ashersky.

This is the second day in a row he has cluttered the thread with endless arguments after having already made his point the first time.

And this makes him scum why?

Tried and true scum method to impede scum hunting.

[scolapasta]

I'm going to go ahead and vote: ashersky

I'm willing to admit I'm not so sure, i.e. the impeding seems a little excessive and *too* obvious.

But I'll also admit, part of my reasoning is self-preservation.

[cayvie]

Here's what I would like to know: Glooble, why did you bring this up if you weren't going to vote for faust or major a case on him?

Because it seems like information town should have.

Also, maybe when I made the post I was thinking I was going to vote for faust, but I haven’t been able to.

The district QTs engender a kind of manufactured solidarity and trust that makes voting for your neighbor feel like a betrayal. It’s something a scum player could manipulate easily and I think that has me on my guard. Basically I keep second guessing myself on whether faust feels townie to me because he is and my gut reads are good or whether faust feels townie because he’s manipulating me.

i really like this post. i definitely find myself having similar thoughts about my district buddy; i get the gut feeling that she's town, and then i second guess whether that's genuine intuition or whether i just really want to have a neighbor i can trust.

[Lekkit]

scolapasta, out of ADK, Shraeye, Jimmm and Ashersky, who would you prefer to lynch today?

Back at you, mate. I know this is getting old, but I'm still waiting for you to share your scumreads.

The sad truth is that I don't have a strong scumread on anyone. There's been bickering going on but not much else. I do think we should look at the people who were not on the Raptor wagon. Maybe not people on the mail-mi wagon, but that leaves us with a very small lynch pool.

And that leaves scolapasta, Jimmm, and Ashersky. If we include the mail-mi people we also have ADK, me and Shraeye.

Out of the first pool, I'd rather not lynch Jimmm. I could go for both scola and Ash. Out of the second group I'd also be willing to go for Shraeye.