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[EFHW]

Supercbusy today. Will catch up tomorrow.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Like, I guess my questions would be:

Was faust's initial claim something confirmable? Was the later claim?
Did something prompt him to reveal the second claim, or did he just do it on his own?

[faust]

@faust

In your opinion, is lying as town okay, as a general rule?  Is lying as town to get what one sees as an advantage for town forgivable?  Should we lynch players caught in a lie 100% of the time?

Obviously these questions arise based on Glooble's information, but I do want to know what you think.

I think that in general, town should not lie. Most of the time, it backfires, and you're misleading all of town, potentially impeding their ability to find scum.

I also think that there are exceptions to this rule. In a 5-player scenario with 2 mafia and a Traitor, it is optimal for all of town to claim Traitor, for instance. And I think the metric is a bit different for QTs. I seem to remember a QT of two townies where one claimed Traitor to lure the other into giving up that they were scum, and the other townie pretending to be scum in order to mislead them. First of all, that is hilarious, but it can also be good play.

We shouldn't lynch players caught in a lie 100% of the time. Indeed, there is no single action a player can take that should lead us to lynch them 100% of the time.

[faust]

Here's a thing. Neither the initial role he told me he had, nor the second role he told me he had, were his prediction for the item he got. Not even close.

So when he said he guessed two right, he actually meant he guessed... one right.

I'm taking this to our QT.

[faust]

I've had faust on my radar since early on but I'll wait until I hear his response to the OK to lie as town questions...

Yeah, since about the time I started voting for you.

[faust]

Wait, so when did you find out that his initial claim was a lie?

I claimed the truth at the start of D2.

[Glooble]

Walking back something I said earlier... Faust’s guess was defensively similar to his initial claim. I don’t want to say more than that.

ADK I can’t answer those questions without giving scum too much info.

[Glooble]

*defensibly

[Glooble]

In other news, I just remembered that faust was scum who had a QT with a townie in War of the Spark mafia. Looking over that QT he also initially acts a little suspicious of UncleEurope before later “deciding he was town” and buddying up to him, and he even tells Uncle that he thought about lying to him about his role to try and influence the nightkill. This strategy paid off for scum in a big way in that game. Of course, faust knows I modded that game, so scum!faust would know I read that QT, which makes me skeptical he’d try the same plan. And back to wifom.

Anyone know of a neighborhood QT I could read where faust was *town*?

[faust]

Anyone know of a neighborhood QT I could read where faust was *town*?

I searched for neighborhoods in my QT list and all I could find was this one from M78, which is kind of abnormal because the neighbors had a common PR.

[faust]

There might still be others, but then they didn't have "Neighbor" in their title.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Walking back something I said earlier... Faust’s guess was defensively similar to his initial claim. I don’t want to say more than that.

ADK I can’t answer those questions without giving scum too much info.

It's hard for me to get a read on the situation, then

[A Drowned Kernel]

I generally trust ashersky's reads and I have a hard time seeing scum!ash tunneling like this, which is causing to rethink my strong townread on faust, but it's not enough for me to actually want to lynch faust.

So, I want to share something that went down in our QT. Hopefully its still useful to people debating faust vs. ashersky even if I scrub the relevant details to avoid outing our roles.

faust's initial claim to me as far as what his item did was a lie. He claims he lied because he thought there was a decent chance I was scum and he wanted to misdirect the scum faction. Given what role he initially claimed and the role he later claimed, I see a stronger case for that behavior as town then as scum.

The other thing is I initially only partially claimed my role and faust pushed me to fully claim before he revealed his role. That part feels scummier to me. It didn't at the time, but in retrospect, there is a town narrative- he didn't want me to be able to weasel out of my claim later if I was scum- and a scum narrative- he needed to evaluate how powerful my role was to know if I was worth a nightkill.

Does this move the needle for anyone?

Well I certainly appreciate the info. And yeah, it does move the needle a little.

At which point was faust claiming that his predictions about two roles were correct?

Here's a thing. Neither the initial role he told me he had, nor the second role he told me he had, were his prediction for the item he got. Not even close.

So when he said he guessed two right, he actually meant he guessed... one right.

How close were his guesses for raptor and mail-mi's items?

[Glooble]

I generally trust ashersky's reads and I have a hard time seeing scum!ash tunneling like this, which is causing to rethink my strong townread on faust, but it's not enough for me to actually want to lynch faust.

So, I want to share something that went down in our QT. Hopefully its still useful to people debating faust vs. ashersky even if I scrub the relevant details to avoid outing our roles.

faust's initial claim to me as far as what his item did was a lie. He claims he lied because he thought there was a decent chance I was scum and he wanted to misdirect the scum faction. Given what role he initially claimed and the role he later claimed, I see a stronger case for that behavior as town then as scum.

The other thing is I initially only partially claimed my role and faust pushed me to fully claim before he revealed his role. That part feels scummier to me. It didn't at the time, but in retrospect, there is a town narrative- he didn't want me to be able to weasel out of my claim later if I was scum- and a scum narrative- he needed to evaluate how powerful my role was to know if I was worth a nightkill.

Does this move the needle for anyone?

Well I certainly appreciate the info. And yeah, it does move the needle a little.

At which point was faust claiming that his predictions about two roles were correct?

Here's a thing. Neither the initial role he told me he had, nor the second role he told me he had, were his prediction for the item he got. Not even close.

So when he said he guessed two right, he actually meant he guessed... one right.

How close were his guesses for raptor and mail-mi's items?

Didn’t guess for flask and way off for Nightlock, but you kinda have to have read the books for that one.

[MiX]

Didn’t guess for flask and way off for Nightlock, but you kinda have to have read the books for that one.

A quick search for Nightlock in the wiki lead me to 1-shot poisoner, it sounds like one of the easiest ones to guess if you were trying to guess them.

LAL. 'Nuff said. But I should reread, hopefully today.

[shraeye]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[MiX]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Probably not.

[Jimmmmm]

Re-read scola. Nothing really jumped out at me. To me they mostly just read like a new player with above average assertiveness. I haven't found any of the arguments particularly compelling either. The only gut takeaway I got from this was that a couple of cayvie's arguments agains scola seem like a stretch; I'll look into her tomorrow.

[faust]

Didn’t guess for flask and way off for Nightlock, but you kinda have to have read the books for that one.

A quick search for Nightlock in the wiki lead me to 1-shot poisoner, it sounds like one of the easiest ones to guess if you were trying to guess them.

Probably easy to figure out you should google if you're a native speaker and know that that's not a real word.

[Jimmmmm]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think on mafiascum they use it to mean Lynch All Liars. Here we use it to mean Lynch All Lurkers.

[MiX]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think on mafiascum they use it to mean Lynch All Liars. Here we use it to mean Lynch All Lurkers.

Er, I might have forgotten that they have the same acronym. I could've swore Lynch All Lurkers had 4 letters, but I probably confused it with LyLo.

Didn’t guess for flask and way off for Nightlock, but you kinda have to have read the books for that one.

A quick search for Nightlock in the wiki lead me to 1-shot poisoner, it sounds like one of the easiest ones to guess if you were trying to guess them.

Probably easy to figure out you should google if you're a native speaker and know that that's not a real word.

I don't understand what you said here. Are you a native speaker? Because I'm not, and I thought you weren't, so I'm confused.

[Jimmmmm]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think on mafiascum they use it to mean Lynch All Liars. Here we use it to mean Lynch All Lurkers.

Er, I might have forgotten that they have the same acronym. I could've swore Lynch All Lurkers had 4 letters, but I probably confused it with LyLo.

I believe I recall Robz announcing that we should Lynch All Lurkers, Literally; possibly LALL was used for a while after that.

[faust]

Didn’t guess for flask and way off for Nightlock, but you kinda have to have read the books for that one.

A quick search for Nightlock in the wiki lead me to 1-shot poisoner, it sounds like one of the easiest ones to guess if you were trying to guess them.

Probably easy to figure out you should google if you're a native speaker and know that that's not a real word.

I don't understand what you said here. Are you a native speaker? Because I'm not, and I thought you weren't, so I'm confused.

Yes that's true. What I'm saying is that I just figured it was a normal, if obscure, English word, a contraption to lock things at night.

I know my list of guesses has been hyped up by all the D1 discussion with ashersky, but it was just me taking 5 minutes to write the first thing that came to mind next to each item, if something did come to mind.

[faust]

LAL.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

I think on mafiascum they use it to mean Lynch All Liars. Here we use it to mean Lynch All Lurkers.

Er, I might have forgotten that they have the same acronym. I could've swore Lynch All Lurkers had 4 letters, but I probably confused it with LyLo.

I believe I recall Robz announcing that we should Lynch All Lurkers, Literally; possibly LALL was used for a while after that.

To add to the confusion, sometimes LALL was used to mean "Lynch All Lurkers and Liars".

[WestCoastDidds]

My guess on nightlock was that it would be some kind of jailkeeper. Literally night and lock.

And I read the books and saw the movies and am a native speaker. Guessing is hard.