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[faust]

Ah quote fail. THis is the bit that I wrote:

I kind of intended to use this as a resource but uh.... there are only 2 votes on pubby registered, and he was lynched. So I'll assume that data is compromised.

Space, can you provide a better vote overview?

[faust]

Ah wait I think I get it... it's who to people voted for, not who voted for those people. nevermind then.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.5:

EFHW (1): mail-mi
Galzria (3): EFHW, 2.7, WCD
2.7 (1): DatSwan
skip (2): shraeye, cayvie
WCD (2): Galzria, uncle
uncleeurope (1): faust

Not Voting (2): SpaceAnemone, skip

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Day 2 ends on April 19 at 21:30 forum time.

[mail-mi]

Lots of stuff happened while I was asleep. I think Galz is telling the truth, and I'm feeling scummy about Eddie.

[shraeye]

What else happened when you were asleep?  What was the towniest reaction?  What was the most confusing interaction?

[mail-mi]

What else happened when you were asleep?

I dreamed, and my wife was also sleeping beside me.

What was the towniest reaction?

Mine, obviously.   

What was the most confusing interaction?

Probably Skip. I don't know why he would just vote Galz and then up and leave. I also don't see why we would disbelieve Galz's claim, it seems honest.

[skip wooznum]

What was the most confusing interaction?

Probably Skip. I don't know why he would just vote Galz and then up and leave. I also don't see why we would disbelieve Galz's claim, it seems honest.

I agree with faust that he's holding back part of his role. I think he's mostly telling the truth though.

[EFHW]

Now that we have an idea what the QT and petition are about (I was not in the QT), it changes how future QT members will think about signing.

Is there any motive for aliens to protect each other? Does alien A care if aliens B, C and D are killed? Is there someone out there with the wincon that {random number} aliens should survive?

It is against town's interests to claim human/alien, even though the humans' individual interests would be furthered by claiming. (I'm assuming mafia are as likely to be alien as town players are.) This is because Galz and his proxy would be motivated to vote people for reasons other than scumminess.

Galz is still a survivor in the alignment sense and we should lynch him as a wildcard who would take on mafia's agenda without hesitation if it looked promising. We also don't want him to have a chance to name a proxy, so no one should sign. (Here again the group interests are different from individual interests.)

[Uncleeurope]

Lots of stuff happened while I was asleep. I think Galz is telling the truth, and I'm feeling scummy about Eddie.

Why?

I genuinely am confused as to how anything I did there means anything in connection to my alignment.

And more confused about how it trends towards scum.

[skip wooznum]

Now that we have an idea what the QT and petition are about (I was not in the QT), it changes how future QT members will think about signing.

Is there any motive for aliens to protect each other? Does alien A care if aliens B, C and D are killed? Is there someone out there with the wincon that {random number} aliens should survive?

It is against town's interests to claim human/alien, even though the humans' individual interests would be furthered by claiming. (I'm assuming mafia are as likely to be alien as town players are.) This is because Galz and his proxy would be motivated to vote people for reasons other than scumminess.

Galz is still a survivor in the alignment sense and we should lynch him as a wildcard who would take on mafia's agenda without hesitation if it looked promising. We also don't want him to have a chance to name a proxy, so no one should sign. (Here again the group interests are different from individual interests.)

If galz is to be believed, naming a proxy won't have any effect on anybody other than galz. It just means galz would win if the the proxy stays alive and all aliens die. The proxy themselves could still lose, because their win con will not have changed.

Now, to me that's somewhat hard to believe. Basically, someone gets to be kingmaker and decide whether galz's chance of winning stays alive, and the decision has no relevance to any other player.

[Uncleeurope]

It was my understanding that the person would also gain Galz’s win condition.

[Uncleeurope]

... if I can get 4 unique players to sign the petition at night, I can ASK (and it is THEIR CHOICE to accept) another player of my choosing to carry on for me in case of my death. Their alignment and win condition do NOT change if they accept, they simply ALSO bear me my win-condition (note, to be clear, it does NOT impact their win-condition): I win if I (or my Proxy) are alive at the end of the game and there are no Aliens left alive.

...

[Uncleeurope]

Am I misreading that?

[Uncleeurope]

I keep reading that as meaning that they maintain their original win condition (that is not altered) but they gain an extra win condition.

[Galzria]

It was my understanding that the person would also gain Galz’s win condition.

Sadly, that is not my understanding when I asked Ash.

My wincon says that I win if, when the game ends, there are any Delusional Humanists left alive and all Aliens are dead.

My ability when I reach 4 signed petitions is to ask one of those signees if they want to become a Delusional Humanist. It is made explicitly clear this will not impact their role or current alignment (I asked night 0). For example, LaLight would still have flipped green (town). He would’ve been “Matt Mason, The Little Prince, a Delusional Humanist... he was Human”.

He still would’ve maintained his town win condition, and if town were to win with no aliens left alive I would win along with town. If town were to win but one of them were still an Alien, I would lose. To LaLight, the outcome would have no difference. It would just matter to me.

It’s not a way of “making someone kingmaker”, it’s a way of making Survivor slightly more likely to win. Without the ability to have a Proxy once I’m dead, that’s it. Every other faction can continue to win if their “team” wins, even if they’re dead. My winning isn’t at odds with anybody else winning (unless you’re an SK and Alien - then I’m strictly at odds with you. But so is everybody else).

[EFHW]

Ok, glad I misunderstood that wincon thing. Can you choose a proxy after you die? Can you be in the qt after you die?

[skip wooznum]

To be clear, can you win and your proxy lose? For example if they're endgamed.

[WestCoastDidds]

Eddie- how likely do you think it is that the people who signed the Galz thingy experience no effect from signing?

[Uncleeurope]

*shrugs*

You know as much as I do at this point, I have shared all I know.

In purely theoretical, I doubt they would have experienced an additional thingy.

Maybe an additional thingy would come into play at 4 signatures, but I have no idea.

I also think it’s likely that Galz is holding back something (I know I would), I just have no idea what it would be.

[Galzria]

To be clear, can you win and your proxy lose? For example if they're endgamed.

No, I would lose as well - If I'm dead and my Proxy is alive (say it's you, and say you're town, and say you're Human), then if you die or are end-gamed - I lose as well. If you die, but town wins, I lose because you and I are both dead. But if you win, and the remaining town are all Human, then I would also win.

My Proxy - and thus in a sense MY win condition become directly tied to the factional win condition of my Proxy if I'm dead. That is, my only way to win is if my Proxy also wins - via their own win condition - and in doing so also meets my criteria (only living players are Human).

If my Proxy is Alien (I have no stated restrictions from Ash that suggests this can't happen...), I assume then I simply can't win by way of them - as they would need to die in order for my win condition to be met... in which case all Delusional Humanists would be dead. In this case I would be a more traditional Survivor (Once I'm dead that's it for me) - with the disadvantage of not even strictly being able to win with whichever faction wins... if that faction contains any living Aliens! 

[Galzria]

Ok, glad I misunderstood that wincon thing. Can you choose a proxy after you die? Can you be in the qt after you die?

Yes to the first, No to the second - and I cannot sign my own Petition (even if I were in the QT). My signature doesn't count.

Also - there was some confusion on the number of people in the QT last night? I think Eddie said there were 3 that spoke - I have confirmed by both reading my role PM and asking Ash - it is 1/3 of living players, rounded down. So with 13 alive last night, there should have been 4 players in the QT - so my guess is that one player simply didn't say anything so you didn't know they were there.

[cayvie]

Didds - I think this is the first time I've ever thought you were scum. Well, no - You used to have a different tick as scum, and then I divulged that, and you broke it.  But I'm pretty confident in this one - so, once I post it at game-end, I expect it won't last another game further. C'est la Vie. Like Mail-Mi said earlier, I'm playing for this game, not future ones.

What's the benefit of revealing it at the end of the game as opposed to now?

seconding this question. why should i vote didds based on what the survivor promises to tell me after game's end?

still wondering this. if you've found a didds scumtell, why wouldn't you share it?

i've never seen Galz play bored and kinda giving up before, i don't know what to make of it.

(not a QT er)

[skip wooznum]

I posted it in the v/la thread but I may as well say it here too; I'll have no access starting soon and lasting until Thursday evening forum time

[Galzria]

*shrugs*

You know as much as I do at this point, I have shared all I know.

In purely theoretical, I doubt they would have experienced an additional thingy.

Maybe an additional thingy would come into play at 4 signatures, but I have no idea.

I also think it’s likely that Galz is holding back something (I know I would), I just have no idea what it would be.

Wish that I were. I mean, you're generally right that I might (it would depend on what it was, honestly, and how I valued that piece of the PR, but not this time. Everybody is stating that "there should be more to it" - but look at it for what it is.

I'm a Survivor. In a traditional role, that would mean that if I'm alive at the end of the game, then I win alongside whichever faction wins. But it's been made more difficult because even if that criteria is met, I might still not win because one of those players might be an Alien. That difficulty is most likely balanced out by there not being a whole heaping ton of Aliens in this game. The fact that we've seen two of them, if I were to guess, is a vast over representation of their numbers. Small sample size and all. So all in all, call it a wash in terms of "strength" of role. I'm probably about on par with a regular Survivor.

Survivor's are generally considered one of the hardest to win with factions in the game. They're added when a game needs an extra balancing piece, but neither main faction (town/scum) need to be adjusted, and another killing role (SK) isn't wanted. This "difficulty to win" is balanced by my "PR" - My ability, through the Petition, to gain a Proxy that gives me a fighting chance to win even in the very likely event I'm lynched/NK'd at some point (the majority of players in the game die at some point). It has the interesting twist of directly tying my chances to the win-con of that player, as I cannot win if they also do not win. If I were to have 4 signatures prior to my death, I would almost certainly be "siding" myself with my Proxy partner - as it is, having the ability to use it posthumously (still only at night, still only if I have 4 unique signatures)  allows me to "wait out" the game until later days before making the request - giving me the best odds of winning as I can try to read the gamestate and see if I prefer my proxy be aligned with town or with scum (I still need to have a correct on my choices alignment). In all, it's a fun way to give me a chance of having a better chance to win than a traditional Survivor. I don't know why anybody would expect even more from the role. That's it. It's boring, but interesting. It is what it is.

[Uncleeurope]

The main thing is that whatever is being hidden, if it exists, it doesn’t matter right now.