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Author Topic: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant  (Read 55652 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #75 on: September 26, 2018, 01:28:38 pm »
+2

It's a bit unfortunate that it's inconsistent with all other +'es, including Villagers. "+1 Coffers and +1 Villager". So you take one... thing... and add it to your Coffers, and then you take a Villager. So the Coin token directly represents a Villager in the latter case, and represents something undefined in the former case - we just know that it goes to your Coffers.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2018, 01:30:40 pm by Jeebus »
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pacovf

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #76 on: September 26, 2018, 01:34:25 pm »
+2

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.

Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...

I was going to make a comment about how both words share the same etymology, so not sure whether that would constitute a pun. Then I realized this conversation is already veering into a discussion about words and grammar, and we all know how much we all enjoy those, so I stopped myself.
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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #77 on: September 26, 2018, 02:10:38 pm »
+3

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.

Well, my "where's my Duke at?" meme for Homage is officially canceled now...

I was going to make a comment about how both words share the same etymology, so not sure whether that would constitute a pun. Then I realized this conversation is already veering into a discussion about words and grammar, and we all know how much we all enjoy those, so I stopped myself.

Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets?
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crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #78 on: September 26, 2018, 02:42:09 pm »
+3

Glancing at the examples on that Wikipedia page, that depends a lot on whether you count Dominion/Dungeon.
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ben_king

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 03:30:39 pm »
0

Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets?

I'm not sure on what exactly qualifies, but according to etymonline, but here are a few other quick ones I found:

* Village/Villa and Villain both share Latin villa, meaning farm or country house, but villain originally meant a farmhand.
* Dominate and Dungeon both share PIE *dem-
* Prince and Copper both share PIE *kap-
* Platinum and Plaza share PIE *plat-
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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #80 on: September 26, 2018, 03:54:28 pm »
+7

Oh hey, are "Ducat" and "Duchy" Dominion's first pair of 100% etymological doublets?

I'm not sure on what exactly qualifies, but according to etymonline, but here are a few other quick ones I found:

* Village/Villa and Villain both share Latin villa, meaning farm or country house, but villain originally meant a farmhand.
* Dominate and Dungeon both share PIE *dem-
* Prince and Copper both share PIE *kap-
* Platinum and Plaza share PIE *plat-

So what I mean by 100% doublets is, Ducat and Duchy don't just come from the same root, but actually from the same word, with nothing else added. So duchy is borrowed from Old French duché, which is the reflex of Latin ducatus; and ducat is borrowed from Old French ducat, which is borrowed from Italian ducato, which is itself the reflex of ducatus. So they both go back to the exact same word, ducatus, just taking different routes into modern English.

Whereas, for example, village and villain come from villa, yes, but they do so by adding a suffix to the root villa, not just by letting the word take its course through time and space.

(BTW, copper doesn't come from PIE *kap-. Or rather, copper 'police officer' comes from *kap-, but the Copper in Dominion is the metal; that word comes from the placename Cyprus.)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2018, 01:34:26 am by AJD »
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ben_king

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #81 on: September 26, 2018, 04:15:46 pm »
0

(BTW, copper doesn't come from PIE *kap-. Or rather, copper 'police officer' comes from *kap-, but the Copper in Dominion is the metal; that word comes from the placename Cyprus.)

My bad, misread the etymonline entry.
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AJD

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #82 on: September 26, 2018, 05:46:48 pm »
+7

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #83 on: September 26, 2018, 05:54:03 pm »
+1

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord

Pawn, Mine, Estate, Squire, Hermit, Feodum, ?
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #84 on: September 26, 2018, 06:03:04 pm »
+1

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord

Pawn, Mine, Estate, Squire, Hermit, Feodum, ?

Also Feodum.

(And money is a doublet with mint, not mine. True story.)
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #85 on: September 26, 2018, 06:16:25 pm »
0

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord

Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #86 on: September 26, 2018, 06:26:32 pm »
0

Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.

Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins

I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.

There are quite a bit of terminal draw cards (which prefer silver as it can't be drawn dead), and there also are quite a bit of cards that interact with silver. I'm too lazy to count but I think on the whole they're pretty close, or at least close enough not to have a substantial advantage over one another to warrant a cost of $4.

If you want to count there's the Action, Treasure, and Terminal Draw pages on the wiki (the last of which also holds draw-to-x).

Also don't forget that Action-Silver is easier to three-pile, assuming it's a kingdom card.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #87 on: September 26, 2018, 06:31:15 pm »
+1

Ducat is strictly better that Candlestick Maker
It is not. Treasures and non-terminal Actions are similar but not identical.

Let's take a hypothetical Action-Silver: +1 Action +2 Coins

I dare to claim that it would have to cost $4 because a lot of cards prefer that over Silver: Throne Room variants, draw-to-X, Scrying Pool, Golem, Herald, Ghost and probably a bunch I forgot.
The advantage of the Treasure over the Action is that it cannot be drawn yet. I think that the former on average outweighs the latter.

There are quite a bit of terminal draw cards (which prefer silver as it can't be drawn dead), and there also are quite a bit of cards that interact with silver. I'm too lazy to count but I think on the whole they're pretty close, or at least close enough not to have a substantial advantage over one another to warrant a cost of $4.

If you want to count there's the Action, Treasure, and Terminal Draw pages on the wiki (the last of which also holds draw-to-x).

Also don't forget that Action-Silver is easier to three-pile, assuming it's a kingdom card.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1225.0
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Simon Jester

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #88 on: September 26, 2018, 06:39:54 pm »
0

Villain is by the way pretty sweet with shelters, hits right away. Feels pretty thematic, it could really belong in Dark Ages without feeling awkward..
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #89 on: September 26, 2018, 06:42:23 pm »
0

But actually, how do you pronounce that word?

'dʌ.kət (DUH-cut). Classic English vowel reduction, taking all the fun out of words.

Yeah I'm going to go with Dew-Kat

I prefer Ethan's typo version: Doo-act

Donald X.

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #90 on: September 26, 2018, 06:45:28 pm »
+10

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord
Fee, fief, feodum
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pacovf

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #91 on: September 26, 2018, 07:18:59 pm »
+3

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord

Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.

Duchy and ducat are the same word in Spanish sooo
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #92 on: September 26, 2018, 07:37:09 pm »
+1

So Ducat kind of means "Coin with the duke's face on it". Heh.

crj

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #93 on: September 26, 2018, 09:02:47 pm »
+2

Clearly, the next expansion should include both a Treasure called Denarius and a Reaction called Denier.

Then we could have a lot of "fun" deciding if Denier was something that denies (unrelated to Denarius), or the unit of textile measure (related).
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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #94 on: September 26, 2018, 10:46:22 pm »
0

So after playing with these:

Villain: Yeah, it's weak. It compares especially unfavorably to Legionary.
Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.
Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.
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Ethan

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #95 on: September 26, 2018, 10:51:38 pm »
+1

Some plausible future card names that would be doublets of existing cards: Peon, Money, State, Esquire, Eremite, Fief, Fee

Less likely ones: Bench, Fabric, Place, Guy, Wit, Fjord

Using such similar words might eventually cause translation difficulties, if that hasn't already happened.
Some cards have translation difficulties in Chinese. Such as Thief/Bandit/Rogue.
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Jeebus

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #96 on: September 26, 2018, 11:35:55 pm »
0

Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.

How? It replaces itself and Sculptor by using up its own Villager. For the turn you haven't increased your hand size, only got 1 Coffers token and a Buy. And the Sculptor is now more like a Moat (unless you plan on trashing it).

Minotaur

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #97 on: September 27, 2018, 12:31:25 am »
0

Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.

Sure, but then it would have to cost $3.  But then you wouldn't be able to buy it for $2 and trash nothing.

A treasure that only granted +1 Buy would occasionally be gained for $2 boards with no other +Buy, but it would feel really bad.  Ducat is just barely good enough to tempt me into buying too many of them.  Which I guess is sort of good.

I feel sorry for Candlestick Maker.  I guess you can throne it or play it before Scholar or whatever, but meh.
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Doom_Shark

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #98 on: September 27, 2018, 01:10:09 am »
+1

Silk Merchant: Stronger than it looks. It's pretty great with TFB, and it's also nice with Sculptor.

How? It replaces itself and Sculptor by using up its own Villager. For the turn you haven't increased your hand size, only got 1 Coffers token and a Buy. And the Sculptor is now more like a Moat (unless you plan on trashing it).
You did increase your hand size though, albeit by only one card:
Quote
Hand of W, X, Y, Z, Sculptor. No coffers or Villagers. 1 action, 1 buy.
Play Sculptor, gaining Silk Merchant to hand. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, Silk Merchant. No coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 1 buy.
Silk Merchant on-gain triggers. 1 coffers, 1 Villager.
Spend Villager to play Silk Merchant, getting +2 cards and +1 buy. Hand is now W, X, Y, Z, A, B. 1 Coffers, no Villagers. No actions, 2 buys.

Not the most effective use of Sculptor by any means, but hey, maybe you really needed that buy to close out the game with a double province or a three pile
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J Reggie

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Re: Renaissance Previews #3: Villain, Ducat, Silk Merchant
« Reply #99 on: September 27, 2018, 01:27:16 am »
0

Ducat: It's decent. I'm kind of disappointed you can't trash Coppers in play.

Just think of it as revisiting overpay.
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