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Author Topic: Weekly Design Contests #1 - #100  (Read 1365950 times)

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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5700 on: May 15, 2020, 09:40:31 am »
0

Something_Smart, please clarify this point: Is the idea to create cards that can also stand on their own or it's ok to create mutually dependent cards as I did?
I was thinking that people would create cards that can stand on their own, but you don't have to-- split piles are fine, and this Partner idea is creative and cool as well. Go for it.

Something_Smart allowed me to participate with the partner cards I created, which mention each other.

However, I still wasnít feeling comfortable with it, since it doesnít fit completely the initial scope of the contest. In some way, itís easier to create an interesting interaction between two cards which mention each other than create two cards that are strong by themselves and also has a cool special interaction.

So, Iím withdrawing my first entry. Though I like the partner idea, I will leave it for an occasion it fits better.

This is my new entry:

   

Quote
Cargo Vessel ē ē Action - Duration

+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play a non-duration action card from your hand. If you did, set it aside (on this) and put it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

Cargo Bales ē ē Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
If this is in play and it's the first play of it after put it in play:
+
- for each Cargo Bales you have in play.


CARGO VESSEL

A kind of Cargo Ship or Haven for the actions you play with it. Like those cards, it increases your next initial hand by one card. It also has a kind of a Scheme effect, enabling better deck control and reliability. Itís also a Village. All these features make it a strong card in an engine. However, since you can play each copy of it only once at each two turns and it may miss shuffles, I think it's not extreme.

It plays only non-duration cards to avoid tracking issues.

Comparing the similar and different features of it to Haven, Cargo Ship, Scheme, Throne Room, Village and Wharf it seems good to me at .

CARGO BALES

A cantrip payload, which makes it especially good in engines. It decreases its power at each play, so itís not broken.

The first one played is a cantrip Gold, a very good card.

The second played is a cantrip Silver.

The third, a cantrip Copper (a Peddler).

The fourth, only a cantrip.

After the fourth, you pay to play it if you want to draw with it.

The clause ďIf this is in play and it's the first play of it after put it in playĒ is intended to make only the cantrip part be affected by throne cards and command cards. Otherwise, it could be too strong. I donít know if itís the best wording for it, but I couldnít find better.

Thinking of it as a Peddler with a bonus in first plays and a penalty in late plays, I think itís ok at , which is the habitual price for peddlers with bonus (Market, Bazaar, Artificer, Treasury, Junk Dealer, Emporium, Fisherman).

INTERACTION

Cargo Vessel can play Cargo Bales and remove it from play, so the next copy of Cargo Bales you would play would also be a cantrip Gold. Besides that, the first Cargo Bales you have played would be returned to your hand in your next turn. And cantrip payload is maybe the best thing to return to hand with Cargo Vessel, it's non terminal and doesn't depend on good draw, it's always free money, a very reliable thing. Itís a strong combo but not extreme, since you need a copy of each card every time you do the trick. It is helped by returning Cargo Bales to hand in your next turn, but counterbalanced by Cargo Vessel being a duration, needing two turns to leave play.

Thematically, they fit each other very well. Cargo Bales gives you money and Cargo Vessel transports Cargo Bales to your hand in the next turn. Also they fit thematically Cargo Ship and Haven, which have some similar abilities to Cargo Vessel.

Feedbacks are always very welcome.

On second thought, maybe the first two plays of Cargo Bales are too strong. I donít know for sure if itís well counterbalanced by its decrease.

First play is like to play three Peddlers or to play a Village + a Legionary (without the attack). Second play is like two Peddlers or an activated Conspirator or an activated Mystic.

Maybe I would make it a $6 cost or remove the +1 Card. What do you think?
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D782802859

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5701 on: May 15, 2020, 09:48:57 am »
+1

Something_Smart, please clarify this point: Is the idea to create cards that can also stand on their own or it's ok to create mutually dependent cards as I did?
I was thinking that people would create cards that can stand on their own, but you don't have to-- split piles are fine, and this Partner idea is creative and cool as well. Go for it.

Something_Smart allowed me to participate with the partner cards I created, which mention each other.

However, I still wasnít feeling comfortable with it, since it doesnít fit completely the initial scope of the contest. In some way, itís easier to create an interesting interaction between two cards which mention each other than create two cards that are strong by themselves and also has a cool special interaction.

So, Iím withdrawing my first entry. Though I like the partner idea, I will leave it for an occasion it fits better.

This is my new entry:

   

Quote
Cargo Vessel ē ē Action - Duration

+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play a non-duration action card from your hand. If you did, set it aside (on this) and put it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

Cargo Bales ē ē Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
If this is in play and it's the first play of it after put it in play:
+
- for each Cargo Bales you have in play.


CARGO VESSEL

A kind of Cargo Ship or Haven for the actions you play with it. Like those cards, it increases your next initial hand by one card. It also has a kind of a Scheme effect, enabling better deck control and reliability. Itís also a Village. All these features make it a strong card in an engine. However, since you can play each copy of it only once at each two turns and it may miss shuffles, I think it's not extreme.

It plays only non-duration cards to avoid tracking issues.

Comparing the similar and different features of it to Haven, Cargo Ship, Scheme, Throne Room, Village and Wharf it seems good to me at .

CARGO BALES

A cantrip payload, which makes it especially good in engines. It decreases its power at each play, so itís not broken.

The first one played is a cantrip Gold, a very good card.

The second played is a cantrip Silver.

The third, a cantrip Copper (a Peddler).

The fourth, only a cantrip.

After the fourth, you pay to play it if you want to draw with it.

The clause ďIf this is in play and it's the first play of it after put it in playĒ is intended to make only the cantrip part be affected by throne cards and command cards. Otherwise, it could be too strong. I donít know if itís the best wording for it, but I couldnít find better.

Thinking of it as a Peddler with a bonus in first plays and a penalty in late plays, I think itís ok at , which is the habitual price for peddlers with bonus (Market, Bazaar, Artificer, Treasury, Junk Dealer, Emporium, Fisherman).

INTERACTION

Cargo Vessel can play Cargo Bales and remove it from play, so the next copy of Cargo Bales you would play would also be a cantrip Gold. Besides that, the first Cargo Bales you have played would be returned to your hand in your next turn. And cantrip payload is maybe the best thing to return to hand with Cargo Vessel, it's non terminal and doesn't depend on good draw, it's always free money, a very reliable thing. Itís a strong combo but not extreme, since you need a copy of each card every time you do the trick. It is helped by returning Cargo Bales to hand in your next turn, but counterbalanced by Cargo Vessel being a duration, needing two turns to leave play.

Thematically, they fit each other very well. Cargo Bales gives you money and Cargo Vessel transports Cargo Bales to your hand in the next turn. Also they fit thematically Cargo Ship and Haven, which have some similar abilities to Cargo Vessel.

Feedbacks are always very welcome.

On second thought, maybe the first two plays of Cargo Bales are too strong. I donít know for sure if itís well counterbalanced by its decrease.

First play is like to play three Peddlers or to play a Village + a Legionary (without the attack). Second play is like two Peddlers or an activated Conspirator or an activated Mystic.

Maybe I would make it a $6 cost or remove the +1 Card. What do you think?

Cargo Bales has an odd, somewhat confusing phrasing that doesn't follow the phrasing of any other in the game. It also pretty much boils down to always buying a single copy and always playing it, and maybe a second one, because most decks don't want any after the third, which makes it a bit uninteresting.
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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5702 on: May 15, 2020, 12:57:34 pm »
0

   

Quote
Cargo Vessel ē ē Action - Duration

+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play a non-duration action card from your hand. If you did, set it aside (on this) and put it into your hand at the start of your next turn.

Cargo Bales ē ē Action

+1 Card
+1 Action
If this is in play and it's the first play of it after put it in play:
+
- for each Cargo Bales you have in play.


Cargo Vessel plays pretty much like a Caravan + Scheme, except it's somewhat weaker (as you already need to have the card you want to save in hand, and with Caravan + Scheme you could play the Scheme every turn). For cantrips, I think $5 costs that have the effect of playing a $4 and a $3 are fine powerwise - see Bazaar, Market, if a little on the weak side.

For Cargo Bales, you you phrase it as "if you played this from your hand", which deals with Throning and Command cards, and makes it have a little less text, but it introduces new interaction with stuff like Herald.

Both cards are probably fine if a little unexciting. The interaction is definitely there, but would probably be more pronounced if Cargo Bales did something with a little more impact than just +$.

Faust, excuse me, I removed the post you commented to replace with a better version that wouldn't be marked as edited. I didn't see you had already commented it. if I did, I wouldn't remove it.

Anyway, from one post to another I only change writing, so it's the same, except for my post being after yours.

I like your comments and will take them into account to improve my entry. Thank you!

Cargo Bales has an odd, somewhat confusing phrasing that doesn't follow the phrasing of any other in the game. It also pretty much boils down to always buying a single copy and always playing it, and maybe a second one, because most decks don't want any after the third, which makes it a bit uninteresting.

Thank you, D782802859! Youíre right about the two issues. I will change my entry to fix them.



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mad4math

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5703 on: May 15, 2020, 09:57:49 pm »
0


Cargo Bales has an odd, somewhat confusing phrasing that doesn't follow the phrasing of any other in the game. It also pretty much boils down to always buying a single copy and always playing it, and maybe a second one, because most decks don't want any after the third, which makes it a bit uninteresting.

Thank you, D782802859! Youíre right about the two issues. I will change my entry to fix them.
I would recommend removing the whole "first play after put into play" wording. Just let the throne combo exist. It's not that great anyway; throne room is a good card in lots of situations. Any wording for this is horribly awkward and generally it is bad to add a lot of text just to affect a single interaction.
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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5704 on: May 16, 2020, 03:28:15 am »
0

I would recommend removing the whole "first play after put into play" wording. Just let the throne combo exist. It's not that great anyway; throne room is a good card in lots of situations. Any wording for this is horribly awkward and generally it is bad to add a lot of text just to affect a single interaction.
Cargo Bales has an odd, somewhat confusing phrasing that doesn't follow the phrasing of any other in the game. It also pretty much boils down to always buying a single copy and always playing it, and maybe a second one, because most decks don't want any after the third, which makes it a bit uninteresting.
Cargo Vessel plays pretty much like a Caravan + Scheme, except it's somewhat weaker (as you already need to have the card you want to save in hand, and with Caravan + Scheme you could play the Scheme every turn). For cantrips, I think $5 costs that have the effect of playing a $4 and a $3 are fine powerwise - see Bazaar, Market, if a little on the weak side.

For Cargo Bales, you you phrase it as "if you played this from your hand", which deals with Throning and Command cards, and makes it have a little less text, but it introduces new interaction with stuff like Herald.

Both cards are probably fine if a little unexciting. The interaction is definitely there, but would probably be more pronounced if Cargo Bales did something with a little more impact than just +$.

Thank you all for feedbacks. I think I was so worried about cards being unbalanced that I made them quite weak and, in the case of Cargo Bales, a lot confusing.

So, I redesign the cards to make them more attractive to buy during all the game and also to make the combo worths more.

Since Cargo Vessel had already the combined effect of three cards (Scheme and Caravan as pointed, but also Village), I think it could work very well in engines. I just remove the duration type, which was slowing it so much. So now it gets you an action card back to hand in the end of this turn instead of at the start of next turn.

About Cargo Bales, I made it more diversified, giving many kinds of vanilla bonus. I also remove decrease factor, which was making it uninteresting to buy more copies. I keep only the difference between first play and the following plays. With the new version I also donít have to worry so much about throne and command cards, so its wording is so much better.

The new version becomes a kind of Market variant with Village abilities, so to express this and fit better thematically the cards families in the game, I rename it to Port Market.

With these modifications and respective changes in comments about cards and interaction, my new entry is this:


   

Quote
CARGO VESSEL ē ē Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
You may play a non-duration action card from your hand. If you did, set it aside and put it into your hand at the end of this turn.

PORT MARKET ē ē Action
+1 Card
+1 Action
Choose one: +1 Action; or +1 Buy; or +.
If there's no other Port Market in play:
+1 Buy and +.

 

CARGO VESSEL

A kind of Cargo Ship or Haven for the actions you play with it. Like those cards or Caravan, it increases your next initial hand by one card. It also has a Scheme effect, enabling better deck control and reliability. Itís also a Village. All these features make it a strong card in an engine.

Once you have it and another action in hand, play Cargo Vessel and make it play that action has an effect similar to play at same time a Scheme, a Caravan and a Village: you will add that played action to your next hand as an extra card and have +1 action available.

It plays only non-duration cards to avoid tracking issues.

Once it is a cantrip, in the worst case that you donít have another action to play, it doesnít have the Throne Room issue of doing nothing some turns. In this aspect it is more like a Village, you have one draw more to get an action card (If you donít get it often, maybe you are playing a non action based strategy that doesnít need a Village).

Since it has a combined effect of and cost cards, it seems ok at .

PORT MARKET

A cantrip with a chosen bonus and an extra bonus at its first play in a turn.

The first Port Market played is a Market with a bonus. Depending on your choice, it could be:

- Market + Village

- Market + Peddler (= Grand Market)

- Market + Market Square

In the following plays it could be a Village, a Peddler or a Market Square, you choose.

This choice between free payload, free buy or free actions, makes it a very interesting option in engines, with big versatility. The bonus at first play make it a very good card in the initial turns to boost your deck.

Thinking of it as a Peddler, Market Square or Village with a bonus, I think itís ok at , which is the habitual price for peddlers with bonus (Market, Bazaar, Artificer, Treasury, Junk Dealer, Emporium, Fisherman).

INTERACTION

Cargo Vessel can play Port Market and remove it from play, so the next copy of Port Market youíd play would also receive the extra bonus. Besides that, the first Port Market you have played would be returned to your hand in your next turn as an extra card. And Port Market is one of the best cards to have in your initial hand, due its largesse and versatility. The first play of it give you a free one of each vanilla payload resources and you can choose as a bonus whatever you need more this turn, + $, + Action or + Buy.

Thematically, they fit each other very well, as well as they fit with Cargo Ship, Haven, Market, Port and many cards in the game which have some similar abilities.

As always, Feedbacks are very welcome. I learn so much with them.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5705 on: May 16, 2020, 04:46:28 am »
0

Updated. I'm hoping unused actions carry over into the buy phase.

There are 15 Mice on top of 5 cats. in a split pile. Note thought that Cat also works really well with Squire if there is a pricey attack on the board and Mouse can get rid of curses so its not entirely awful. Cat is potentially better than Lab with the risk it will just fizz out and do nothing.

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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5706 on: May 16, 2020, 05:15:50 am »
0

Updated. I'm hoping unused actions carry over into the buy phase.

There are 15 Mice on top of 5 cats. in a split pile. Note thought that Cat also works really well with Squire if there is a pricey attack on the board and Mouse can get rid of curses so its not entirely awful. Cat is potentially better than Lab with the risk it will just fizz out and do nothing.



In Cat the text above the line should be below it and vice versa.
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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5707 on: May 16, 2020, 05:35:17 am »
+1

Updated. I'm hoping unused actions carry over into the buy phase.

There are 15 Mice on top of 5 cats. in a split pile. Note thought that Cat also works really well with Squire if there is a pricey attack on the board and Mouse can get rid of curses so its not entirely awful. Cat is potentially better than Lab with the risk it will just fizz out and do nothing.



In kingdoms without cursers or other trasher, I think I wouldn't want to buy Mouse to trash Coppers, since until Cat shows up what I would have is a deck full of Necropolis. In kingdoms with other trasher except for Jack of All Trades or Hermit I could use that trasher to trash the Coppers. So, Mouse seems to me to be very limited in uses.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 02:16:06 pm by Carline »
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spineflu

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5708 on: May 16, 2020, 10:03:59 am »
0

Updated. I'm hoping unused actions carry over into the buy phase.

they do. Diadem, Villa, and Cavalry care about this.
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grep

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5709 on: May 17, 2020, 01:36:10 am »
0

Updated. I'm hoping unused actions carry over into the buy phase.

There are 15 Mice on top of 5 cats. in a split pile. Note thought that Cat also works really well with Squire if there is a pricey attack on the board and Mouse can get rid of curses so its not entirely awful. Cat is potentially better than Lab with the risk it will just fizz out and do nothing.


A Mouse can eat a Cat having a few Villages in play - is it intended?
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somekindoftony

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5710 on: May 17, 2020, 09:23:35 am »
0

Ha grep, nope totally unintended.
I'm actually going to make some significant changes to these two. Firstly I don't like the idea of split cards for this challenge. I want to make two pieces that fit together and can stand apart.
For the fitting together I need the benefit of the mouse (upgrading coppers to a 2 cost card) to be appreciated by the cat. If Cat trashes 0 cost cards the same as 2 cost cards that benefit isn't there. But if it trashes only 2 cost cards its benefit is too narrow. Hence I went with being able to trash up to 2 cost but only benefiting if the cost is above zero.
These are two separate normal sized piles (only ten mice) that might not turn up in a kingdom together. This makes the Mouse a tough choice in kingdoms without trashers or other +Actions. I am tempted to up the Mouse to +3 actions but I don't think its necessary. Mouse is a trasher that will never hit anything bad and compares favourably, in some lights, to Lookout. There is a risk you will be the only player to gain all 10 but thats part of the fun of timing when you pick one up. If there is no better source of +Actions your opponents will probably want some of the Mice before they run out.
The Cat is strong regardless. Even if you only convert 3 estates into +2 cards at different times its worth it. Mice make Cats awesome. But Cats are still worth picking.

 

I'm a little worried Cat is too strong.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:21:05 am by somekindoftony »
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Vengil

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5711 on: May 17, 2020, 10:57:03 am »
0

Firstly I don't like the idea of split cards for this challenge.

The split pile was a good idea. Maybe 5 Mouses and 5 Cats ?

Maybe :
Cat : +1 Action, +1 carte. You may trash a Mouse in your hand for draw 2 cards.
Mousse : +2 Action. Rťveal the top card of you deck. If it Costs 0 trash it. Otherwise discard it. Gain a Mouse or Cat if avaible.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2020, 11:00:25 am by Vengil »
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Rhodos

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5712 on: May 17, 2020, 02:11:28 pm »
0



There are 10 Accommodations in the pile.
Interesting little triangle of cards! So if I'm reading this correctly, the only way to get the Accommodations in your deck is by trashing an Innkeeper to un-Exile them?

Thank you!
Yes that and Transport I guess :D
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mad4math

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5713 on: May 19, 2020, 12:55:32 am »
0

My entry is an old card I submitted before, and a new card that combos with it.
The old card is Turtle.

Quote
Turtle
$2 Night - Duration

Set aside any number of action cards from your hand. At the start of your next turn, play them in any order.
-----
This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).
Quote
Road
$4 Action
+2 buys
You may trash this for +$5. If you didn't, discard your hand.
----
While this is in play, cards cost $2 less.
This card is pretty weird. It's a choice between a princess variant and a death cart variant. Note that if you choose the trash option, cards won't cost $2 less because it's not in play.
I am very unconfident about the balance of this card. I think that something reasonable can be made by tweaking the cost and the $ for trashing it. The original version I was thinking of didn't have the death cart option, but I was worried it would be a dead card too often since it required virtual coin to do anything at all. Now it has a built-in way of giving virtual coin, making both options relevant always.

With Turtle, you can get a megaturn by setting aside 4 Roads, and then choosing the discard option on all of them at the start of your turn. Now cards cost $8 less and you have 9 buys, enough to empty the provinces.

The earlier judging claimed that Turtle was too strong in cases where it sets aside 3+ cards, however I think it is fine as it is a big downside to duration you actions and only get them every other turn.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5714 on: May 19, 2020, 03:16:01 am »
0

My entry is an old card I submitted before, and a new card that combos with it.
The old card is Turtle.

Quote
Turtle
$2 Night - Duration

Set aside any number of action cards from your hand. At the start of your next turn, play them in any order.
-----
This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).
Quote
Road
$4 Action
+2 buys
You may trash this for +$5. If you didn't, discard your hand.
----
While this is in play, cards cost $2 less.
I think Turtle could stand to be more expensive, it is pretty powerful aas it can act as a weird source of +actions on boards without other sources, thus enabling engines. Especially good since you can buy it just when you need it.

Road is too powerful as written with the trashing I think. It's a no-brainer any time you want to spike early, compared to Death Cart which at least comes with some drawbacks, and if you don't want to spike it's still a Feast+. Hard to tell how good it would be if you reduced the bonus to +$4, I think it would still see plenty of uses. I would also try to make the non-trashing option a bit more viable, not sure what the best way for that would be though.
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Carline

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5715 on: May 19, 2020, 03:45:53 am »
0


I think Turtle could stand to be more expensive, it is pretty powerful aas it can act as a weird source of +actions on boards without other sources, thus enabling engines. Especially good since you can buy it just when you need it.


Yes, comparing to Tactician, which also sacrifices a turn for the next one, Turtle seems really too strong at $2, since you play the saved actions for free next turn.

It enables you to have a high density of terminal draw in your deck that you can play for free, making it easier to draw your whole deck. With deck in hand, you can just separate a couple of other terminals to turtle again. So, all of your turns could be a Turtle turn, with a lot of cards and free good actions.

For instance, if you have two Turtles and two Catacombs in deck and turtle a Catacombs, you would have a range of 11 cards to find the other Turtle and the other Catacombs to do it again. If you didnít draw the Turtle, you still can buy one and play. With four Catacombs in deck, if you Turtle two, you would have a range of 17 cards to find the other two Catacombs to turtle again.
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mad4math

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5716 on: May 19, 2020, 07:31:28 am »
0


I think Turtle could stand to be more expensive, it is pretty powerful aas it can act as a weird source of +actions on boards without other sources, thus enabling engines. Especially good since you can buy it just when you need it.


Yes, comparing to Tactician, which also sacrifices a turn for the next one, Turtle seems really too strong at $2, since you play the saved actions for free next turn.

It enables you to have a high density of terminal draw in your deck that you can play for free, making it easier to draw your whole deck. With deck in hand, you can just separate a couple of other terminals to turtle again. So, all of your turns could be a Turtle turn, with a lot of cards and free good actions.

For instance, if you have two Turtles and two Catacombs in deck and turtle a Catacombs, you would have a range of 11 cards to find the other Turtle and the other Catacombs to do it again. If you didnít draw the Turtle, you still can buy one and play. With four Catacombs in deck, if you Turtle two, you would have a range of 17 cards to find the other two Catacombs to turtle again.

I still find it hard to see how it can actually be that strong. In terms of vanilla bonuses it is basically +(X+1) Actions, where X is the number of action cards you delayed. Necropolis is a bad card, and that's X=1; Crossroads without the draw part is one copy of X=2 and isn't considered a very good $2 either. Delaying cards a turn is a very big downside; for example the delayed options of barge and village green are not very good. In the catacombs example, if you replace the 2 Turtles with e.g. 3 squires, your engine draws 2 more cards each turn at the cost of some reliability.

Tactician is also not a very good card unless you have good virtual coin so the downside is minimal. +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, discard say 3 cards is also a lot better than say +3 actions.

I agree that when there aren't any other +Actions it can be very strong as an engine enabler, but I think that is fine as that is true of any good village.

I suppose I would be willing to make it $3 if people still think it's too good, but I think it does compare quite unfavorably to villa at $3.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5717 on: May 19, 2020, 08:22:32 am »
0

I still find it hard to see how it can actually be that strong. In terms of vanilla bonuses it is basically +(X+1) Actions, where X is the number of action cards you delayed. Necropolis is a bad card, and that's X=1; Crossroads without the draw part is one copy of X=2 and isn't considered a very good $2 either. Delaying cards a turn is a very big downside; for example the delayed options of barge and village green are not very good. In the catacombs example, if you replace the 2 Turtles with e.g. 3 squires, your engine draws 2 more cards each turn at the cost of some reliability.

Tactician is also not a very good card unless you have good virtual coin so the downside is minimal. +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, discard say 3 cards is also a lot better than say +3 actions.

I agree that when there aren't any other +Actions it can be very strong as an engine enabler, but I think that is fine as that is true of any good village.

I suppose I would be willing to make it $3 if people still think it's too good, but I think it does compare quite unfavorably to villa at $3.
I disagree that the delayed option on Barge is weak; there is a reason that Haunted Woods costs $5 while Smithy costs $4, and it's only party due to the attack - delayed draw is pretty strong. Engines often have surplus draw or actions lying around; saving that for later is a big boost towards reliability.
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somekindoftony

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5718 on: May 19, 2020, 08:35:49 am »
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I guess a simple way of seeing how good Turtle is, is to compare it to a straightforward delayed play and that means imagining a different card for a bit.
Imagine the Turtle was an action - duration card that could only turtle one other action.
If you Turtle a Market you start next turn with +1 card, +1 Action, and +$1. You will have at the start of next turn 2 actions, an effect you wont get from playing the market normally. This allows you to play a smithy in that turn and then play subsequent actions.
I would almost always keep an action like market, or any cantrip, back to turtle it the next turn with this version.
Now all of this  feels like its just no net gain because this alternative Turtle takes an action itself to be played but the effect of smoothing out an engine involving villages, and draw card is still good enough to consider especially once your sweet engine has gotten greener or filled with curses.
So that's a 2 cost Turtle that can only play one card and takes an action itself.
Its arguably not worth buying. But give it a reaction effect and it would be fine.
Your turtle though can delay play multiple cards and doesn't take an action itself and goes straight to work as soon as I buy it. It actually might be pretty sweet as a 4 cost Event. I think four seems reasonable, but just my opinion.
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5719 on: May 19, 2020, 09:14:01 am »
+2

Sorry for the lack of 24-hour warning; I was out of town and couldn't post it.

Judging will be in about 6 hours.
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segura

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5720 on: May 19, 2020, 09:35:59 am »
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I still find it hard to see how it can actually be that strong. In terms of vanilla bonuses it is basically +(X+1) Actions, where X is the number of action cards you delayed. Necropolis is a bad card, and that's X=1; Crossroads without the draw part is one copy of X=2 and isn't considered a very good $2 either. Delaying cards a turn is a very big downside; for example the delayed options of barge and village green are not very good. In the catacombs example, if you replace the 2 Turtles with e.g. 3 squires, your engine draws 2 more cards each turn at the cost of some reliability.

Tactician is also not a very good card unless you have good virtual coin so the downside is minimal. +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, discard say 3 cards is also a lot better than say +3 actions.

I agree that when there aren't any other +Actions it can be very strong as an engine enabler, but I think that is fine as that is true of any good village.

I suppose I would be willing to make it $3 if people still think it's too good, but I think it does compare quite unfavorably to villa at $3.
I disagree that the delayed option on Barge is weak; there is a reason that Haunted Woods costs $5 while Smithy costs $4, and it's only party due to the attack - delayed draw is pretty strong. Engines often have surplus draw or actions lying around; saving that for later is a big boost towards reliability.
Sure, delaying stuff is good for consistency. But playing stuff only half of the time is bad for efficiency. Mastermind is just a half KC and without the Horse combos not that crazy.

The downside of Turtle is  that it sets itself as well as the Actions aside and does not draw (which decreases consistency as we know from Village vs Festival).
That is a biggie and justifies the cheap price tag.
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faust

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5721 on: May 19, 2020, 09:39:17 am »
0

I still find it hard to see how it can actually be that strong. In terms of vanilla bonuses it is basically +(X+1) Actions, where X is the number of action cards you delayed. Necropolis is a bad card, and that's X=1; Crossroads without the draw part is one copy of X=2 and isn't considered a very good $2 either. Delaying cards a turn is a very big downside; for example the delayed options of barge and village green are not very good. In the catacombs example, if you replace the 2 Turtles with e.g. 3 squires, your engine draws 2 more cards each turn at the cost of some reliability.

Tactician is also not a very good card unless you have good virtual coin so the downside is minimal. +5 cards +1 action +1 buy, discard say 3 cards is also a lot better than say +3 actions.

I agree that when there aren't any other +Actions it can be very strong as an engine enabler, but I think that is fine as that is true of any good village.

I suppose I would be willing to make it $3 if people still think it's too good, but I think it does compare quite unfavorably to villa at $3.
I disagree that the delayed option on Barge is weak; there is a reason that Haunted Woods costs $5 while Smithy costs $4, and it's only party due to the attack - delayed draw is pretty strong. Engines often have surplus draw or actions lying around; saving that for later is a big boost towards reliability.
Sure, delaying stuff is good for consistency. But playing stuff only half of the time is bad for efficiency. Mastermind is just a half KC and without the Horse combos not that crazy.

The downside of Turtle is  that it sets itself as well as the Actions aside and does not draw (which decreases consistency as we know from Village vs Festival).
That is a biggie and justifies the cheap price tag.
I would agree if it wasn't gained to your hand. But the fact that it is I think should justify a price increase, similar to how Den of Sin would probably cost $4 or even $3 if it wasn't for the gain to hand.
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Holger

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5722 on: May 19, 2020, 11:11:16 am »
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My entry is an old card I submitted before, and a new card that combos with it.
The old card is Turtle.

Quote
Turtle
$2 Night - Duration

Set aside any number of action cards from your hand. At the start of your next turn, play them in any order.
-----
This is gained to your hand (instead of your discard pile).
Quote
Road
$4 Action
+2 buys
You may trash this for +$5. If you didn't, discard your hand.
----
While this is in play, cards cost $2 less.
I think Turtle could stand to be more expensive, it is pretty powerful aas it can act as a weird source of +actions on boards without other sources, thus enabling engines. Especially good since you can buy it just when you need it.

Road is too powerful as written with the trashing I think. It's a no-brainer any time you want to spike early, compared to Death Cart which at least comes with some drawbacks, and if you don't want to spike it's still a Feast+. Hard to tell how good it would be if you reduced the bonus to +$4, I think it would still see plenty of uses. I would also try to make the non-trashing option a bit more viable, not sure what the best way for that would be though.

Yes, Road's trashing option makes it essentially strictly better than Feast, with a lot more flexibility what you want to gain from it and when to trigger it. But the non-trashing option can also be strong - in a deck without Treasures and Night cards it's better than Princess.
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Something_Smart

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5723 on: May 19, 2020, 05:31:33 pm »
+3

Contest 73: Mancap Redux Judging
Ruffians & Guard Tower by [TP] Inferno
So Ruffians is kind of a mini-Knight combined with a weak discard attack. Urchin shows us that discard-down-to-4 is very rarely relevant, and War not usually being that bad shows us that the main strengths of Knights is in hitting $5's and $6's. I probably wouldn't go out of my way to add a Ruffians to my deck unless I needed the +Buy.
Guard Tower, on the other hand, is a pretty strong card on its own and is a pretty underwhelming counter to most attacks. Contrasted with Beggar, Diplomat, and Horse Traders, this reaction is pretty much objectively bad in a vacuum. It's only good against attacks that care about the top of your deck, but even with those, it isn't great-- it doesn't stop Fortune Teller or Scrying Pool from hurting, it can neutralize Swindler but that's it, it can lower your chance of getting hit by a Knight or a Cardinal (or a Ruffians). I'm not sure I'd even care about the Ruffians attack enough to get a Guard Tower if these two cards popped up together, unless I wanted it for the DtX (and I might, because that part of it is cool).

Golden Ages & Dark Ages by majiponi
Hey, wait, you can't have a card and an expansion with the same name, that's illega-- oh, right. What a weird combo. The Golden Ages rush to me seems really good-- rush out all the Golden Ages, then use Dark Ages to stuff all the treasures you can on your Exile mat. This seems to be the only strat with a chance of succeeding on board where there are no non-treasure payloads. If there are non-treasure payloads, well, it's likely that this pile gets mostly ignored if nobody is going for it and then Dark Ages never triggers. But it's a really cool and creative synergy nonetheless.

Instruct & Quicksilver by Aquila
Instruct is a pretty cool idea. It seems even worse than Pawn in terms of analysis paralysis; I'm sitting here scratching my head thinking of all the different use cases for it. Quicksilver seems really good for a $4-- it's basically a Silver+ under most circumstances and there's some good reasoning about why those should always cost at least $5. Especially since it's reusable with gainers and Instruct specifically allows you to use it twice in one turn, Quicksilver has a very strong synergy with pretty much every gainer, and an insane synergy with Instruct. The combo would be fun to play for sure, though there might be a lot of calculation required.

Porter & Athenaeum by spineflu
Both of these seem pretty unimpressive on their own. Porter is barely a Woodcutter and while you could probably set up a Porter megaturn the same as you could with Bridge, it just doesn't seem worth the effort (unless there are things that give VP's for filling your deck with actions, like Vineyard or Triumphal Arch). Athenaeum is very unlikely to be better than Embassy, but hey, it's DtX, we like DtX. (I like DtX anyway.) Together they're... slightly less unimpressive? Porter is a village or a lab when discarded. Not bad, but nothing to write home about. I think Village Green probably does what Porter does better.

Tribal Village & Stud Farm by faust
Tribal Village is cool! This is a cool card. It's like Snowy Village but for money. First one's a Gold + Village, the rest are necropolises or worse. Unless you have some way to lower your $ during the turn-- Black Market, Storyteller, Villa, Cavalry... or Stud Farm. But Stud Farm feels pretty weak; when it works out, it's kinda like Storyteller, but terminal, but you can't even play treasures so you might not be able to do anything with it at all. And if you have a deck that can make use of the +2 Buys, you probably don't need the horses to draw consistently (and you'd rather have the money). Putting it all together, this combo would be fun to play, but it would be hard because the two cards don't draw at all until you collide them, but if you add too much external draw then Stud Farm's horses aren't really doing anything for you.

Gaoler & Gold Mine by Gazbag
The biggest downside of Gaoler is that you're gonna be forced to put bad cards from Exile into your hand a lot. On its own it strikes me as a Trade Route type, "if this is the only thinning I GUESS I'll take it" kind of card. It's very hard to use for tucking away green cards once you have deck control-- even harder than Native Village-- because you can't make any progress unless you can discard at least three cards for it to exile. Gold Mine does solve the main problem, for sure. This combo will very quickly swap out your bad cards for Golds-- that seems like a money deck that's pretty hard to beat. Although, the question is, is this that much better than just big money with Gold Mine + some other thinner? My intuition says it's not that different, because in big money you are buying Gold a lot anyway. Gold Mine is gonna be a very fast money card in any event, especially since you can open with it and by the time you can afford a Gold you'll probably have all the Golds you need in Exile.

Fertile Village & Midwife by grrgrrgrr
Fertile Village is pretty unimpressive, but it's a Village+ for $4. Sometimes you buy Village Green or Fortress when you can't trigger them, because a village for $4 is still worthwhile. You can maybe use it to grab a few extra copies of itself by the time you have overdraw.
Midwife, on the other hand, is even worse when you can't trigger it. Sometimes you take the Smithy+ for $5 when you need the draw, but you're really not going to be happy about it. On the other hand, with pretty much any trigger at all, this becomes +4 Cards +1 Action which is mega nuts. I guess the Fortress comparison is apt-- either you can't trigger it and it's meh, or you can, and triggering it is probably gonna be centralizing. The synergy between the two cards is there, though I think Midwife synergizes more with non-terminal discarders like Artificer and Mill, because then the fact that revealing it is nonterminal matters more.

Recycle & Goblet by mandioca15
Both of these are kinda nuts. Recycle is a trasher with Recruiter/Sentry levels of unskippableness, and you can keep it as a powerful DtX if you can't feed it, or you can just toss it out once you've thinned. Goblet is just insane with pretty much any trasher. It's reminiscent of HoP; it can gain copies of itself, but it's a LOT easier to trigger a megaturn-- rather than having 8 unique cards in play, you just need to trash a $5 and with enough Goblets in hand you can empty the Provinces. These cards do work well together, insomuch as they are both extremely powerful.

Schoolteacher & Dullahan by D782802859
Schoolteacher's pretty cool. A terminal silver for $2 means that even if it doesn't happen to hit it still helps. The Victory effect is by far the strongest, the Action one is okay if you desperately need a village, and the Treasure one will almost never be useful. Dullahan, aside from having accountability issues (you can't look through your discard), is incredibly swingy, and is certainly worth buying on a board where you can't draw deck without it, but the game will probably be determined by whoever draws their Dullahans at the bottom of the shuffle more often. Schoolteacher does definitely help it, especially if you're trying for a megaturn, so that interaction is pretty cool.

Assembly Shop & Monk's Village by artless
Aside from certain boards where consistently hitting $5 is important (Duke comes to mind, but Minion as well, especially because Minion is DtX that likes discard-for-benefit), this feels very slow-- if you can draw enough of your deck to make the discarding possible, then it might be equivalent to adding like an Artisan or a HoP, but you can only get one, and you have to spike all the way up to $7. Monk's Village is a cool concept, rewarding you for emptying your hand, but I don't know how good this synergy even is. If you use Assembly Shop in the Action phase, Monk's Village will draw you a card before Assembly Shop gains you one, so you can't even predict it, and you've basically given up your turn anyway so the card you draw probably won't matter. In the Buy phase, it's a little better, but you're unlikely to have enough cards to discard there.

Comptroller & Market Day by Fragasnap
Comptroller reads as pretty unlikely to trigger. Even if it comes up with an Event, most Events aren't ones you want to buy a lot, especially late in the game. And if you have a big enough deck to want +Buy, you probably have enough deck control that its reserve nature doesn't help THAT much. (Or you're in a Gardens rush, and you don't care when the +Buys come because they're going to be Coppers anyway.) Market Day is really good, though not really game-warping, on boards where +Buy is plentiful (Worker's Village, Margrave, Spices, etc.). Which I guess is the case for Comptroller, but it doesn't have to be. If Comptroller isn't worth getting because you can't build to where the +Buys matter, Market Day probably isn't going to change that.

Privatize & Customs House by LordBaphomet
Privatize doesn't do anything without Villagers/Coffers already in the game; this is a problem. It's not unfixable, but a fix would be awkward (a setup line saying to include a Villager or Coffer card, maybe, but that would make the text smaller than it already is). As for a viable source of alt-VP, well it probably isn't? Sure in Masterpiece/Guildhall or Merchant Guild madness, but the majority of the time it's too slow. And converting your villagers to coffers means that you can't even rely on villagers for deck control. Customs House is a Silver with extra steps, as each coffer that goes on due to it probably comes off when one is in play and grants a villager and a coin. It's kinda cool. The synergy lets you bounce them around forever, which is also cool, but Privatize is just so unlikely to be useful at all in a random kingdom.

Ledger & Favorite by grep
Ledger's neat, it scales similar to Courtier based on the number of different types available. There's probably some silliness with Bonfire? There's also silliness with gain moving (Watchtower, Royal Seal, etc.) because I think as written if Ledger loses track of itself it can still be played (similar to how Vassal/Faithful Hound can set aside the Hound and still play it), and then it can be looped. That's a bit of a problem, and I would probably rather word Ledger like Outpost where "if you haven't yet played a Ledger this turn." Favorite's a card with a lot of types, that's cool. Cantrip receive a Boon is probably balanced/on the weak side at $5, but it also slows the game down a ton. This one's probably even worse in terms of game enjoyability? But it seems pretty balanced; you lose some of the power for the flexibility. The synergy is great and makes a deck that would be very powerful and also interesting to play. Until you have six Favorites and are flipping over the Boon and Hex piles every two turns... maybe Favorite would also want to have a "if this is the first time you played a Favorite this turn" clause. There's a reason Donald X. didn't do cantrip Boons, aside from Pixie which is one-shot.

House & Merchandise by X-tra
House is cool, a weak village with some payload built in. Sometimes you'd take a necropolis, and you're happy to have one that also gives some cash. Merchandise is really abusable. Anything that lets you load up on a cantrip is gonna make this explode and fast. House is almost certainly not the best target for it-- pretty much any cantrip is better-- but the synergy is there because both cards want you to have a lot of cards in play, and Merchandise does need a village. But it would prefer a drawing village, for sure, so that synergy is pretty weak.

Small Market & Innkeeper by Rhodos
Small Market is fine. It's a Moat with a buy, sometimes you'd pay $2 for that. (Sometimes I pay $2 for a Moat on a board with no attacks.) The reaction is a nice boost that's distinct from the other on-discard reactions. Innkeeper is cool but it seems like more trouble than it's worth to get and hold onto Accommodations, though I will admit that it synergizes with Small Market nicely-- Small Market's reaction lets you keep up a steady supply of Innkeepers to continue to add Accommodations. Accommodation requires a very high action density to be that useful, but even when it's one-shot, it is two horses, so maybe it's worth going for. But it's gonna get pretty awkward when you run out of Estates and each Innkeeper is one-shot.

Deacon & Knave by alion8me
Deacon is a Sauna variant, not contingent on any other card, but it can only trash cards that are played. It's basically a Junk Dealer on trashing a Copper, but in return it can't get rid of Estates or Curses. Seems all right. Knave is a pretty weak attack, it doesn't really seem worthwhile unless you can trigger its on-trash. Oh well. Deacon makes it easier to trash, though it would be cooler if Knave's on-play attack would synergize with its on-trash attack so that it meant more that you would get them both in the same turn. Knave will probably be most useful in a rush similar to IGG-- you don't have to hit $5 this way, but you do have to line up the Knave with the trasher. Also pretty good with Lurker.

Cargo Vessel & Port Market by Carline
Cargo Vessel is essentially a Lost City. That's very good. The fact that its first draw doesn't come until next turn slows it down a bit, but it's made up for by the fact that you get to pick what the card will be. I expect this pile to disappear rapidly in every game it's in. Is that fun? Maybe, but there's really no downside to stuffing your deck full of these. You get actions, draw, reliability, basically an engine handed to you. As for Port Market, it's a neat Peddler variant with an extra once-per-turn bonus unless you can evade the bonus by removing it from play. Seems reasonably strong, you certainly want one, and the synergy with Cargo Vessel is definitely there, though I think the overpowering strength of Cargo Vessel mostly overshadows it.

Mouse & Cat by somekindoftony
A Mouse that eats your Coppers and gives extra actions, and a Cat that eats cards costing $2 of which Mouse is one. Cute! Your fear is justified, though-- Cat is very good. Probably better than Apprentice, at least in the early game. Mouse does give it a small boost, but you almost certainly can't skip it anyway. Mouse is good when there is strong terminal draw; I'd be fine swapping my coppers all for necropolises as long as I had the draw to back it up. The synergy works similarly to Rats, because Cat likes to have $2's rather than $0's and Mouse turns all your $0's into $2's. Cat is already very strong and this makes is that much stronger.

Turtle & Road by mad4math
So Turtle is just as many +Actions as you can muster. Seems pretty reasonable, albeit obviously very good with strong draw, similar to Coin of the Realm. Road is very annoying to work with, and it's good with other cost reducers and other +Buy. I agree with people saying the +$5 is too strong; it gives you way too much flexibility as a payload. As for the synergy, I guess the idea is that you draw enough to get four Roads in hand, then buy a Turtle and win next turn a la KC/KC/Bridge/Bridge/Bridge. Like KC and Bridge, it's pretty swingy depending on who manages to collide the right cards at the right time first. But they are pretty creative cards, with a pretty creative synergy.

Winner: Mouse & Cat by somekindoftony

Runner-up: Schoolteacher & Dullahan by D782802859
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[TP] Inferno

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Re: Weekly Design Contest Thread
« Reply #5724 on: May 19, 2020, 06:05:45 pm »
0

Contest 73: Mancap Redux Judging
Ruffians & Guard Tower by [TP] Inferno
So Ruffians is kind of a mini-Knight combined with a weak discard attack. Urchin shows us that discard-down-to-4 is very rarely relevant, and War not usually being that bad shows us that the main strengths of Knights is in hitting $5's and $6's. I probably wouldn't go out of my way to add a Ruffians to my deck unless I needed the +Buy.
Guard Tower, on the other hand, is a pretty strong card on its own and is a pretty underwhelming counter to most attacks. Contrasted with Beggar, Diplomat, and Horse Traders, this reaction is pretty much objectively bad in a vacuum. It's only good against attacks that care about the top of your deck, but even with those, it isn't great-- it doesn't stop Fortune Teller or Scrying Pool from hurting, it can neutralize Swindler but that's it, it can lower your chance of getting hit by a Knight or a Cardinal (or a Ruffians). I'm not sure I'd even care about the Ruffians attack enough to get a Guard Tower if these two cards popped up together, unless I wanted it for the DtX (and I might, because that part of it is cool).
Hmm. Looks like I overestimated the strength of Ruffians' attack. Would it be better with +2 Cards?
As for Guard Tower, maybe I could drop the Reaction and make it a $3.
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