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[Robz888]

Vote: Galz

I am having a hard time seeing how it's possible for him to be telling the truth. Basically the only way would be a scum!redirector. Which is definitely possible, this is RMM, and faust has put redirectors in games before. But Galz being scum seems a bit neater.

I had forgot about the whole scum absorbs the PR of the person they kill thing. So Eevee did the kill in order to shed his nerf, but the kill failed and he remained nerf'd... he targeted the BP'd player, maybe. My Vanilla-izing likewise failed because he's ascetic.

Kinda cool that ascetic was a drawback here for scum.

Also EFHW and I protected eachother that night, so scum shooting one of us is a likely answer. Note that DatSwan claimed Jim took no action N1 too.

Yep yep, there's that.

[Swowl]

alright getting on plane in like an hour and a half. I still need to go through claims in my head fully - so I will do it then and then get back.

[Swowl]

I found this on mafiawiki:

"Sometimes, an Ascetic killing role, such as an Ascetic Goon, Vigilante, or Serial Killer, forgoes its protection on a night when it is performing a kill."

What if scum!Robz was hoping to remove Eevee's guilty child role? We'd need an explanation for why it didn't work, though, assuming faust would tell Eevee that he would lose his protection if he did the kill. The nk didn't go through N2. Maybe he kept his protection as a result?

There's no need for the Vanillaizer in that scenario because scum can change roles by killing anyway. It is a bit weird why Eevee never got rid of his Guilty role, though, and the best explanations I can come up with off the top of my head are:

1) someone else in the scum team had a worse negative utility ability that they needed to get rid of
2) Eevee was immune to the role changing mechanic

Also... just saying, If Eevee was Ascetic that means he can't be targeted right? So how would Skum!Robz target Eevee to rid him of his power? Doesn't Ascetic just mean it would fail?

[Awaclus]

I found this on mafiawiki:

"Sometimes, an Ascetic killing role, such as an Ascetic Goon, Vigilante, or Serial Killer, forgoes its protection on a night when it is performing a kill."

What if scum!Robz was hoping to remove Eevee's guilty child role? We'd need an explanation for why it didn't work, though, assuming faust would tell Eevee that he would lose his protection if he did the kill. The nk didn't go through N2. Maybe he kept his protection as a result?

There's no need for the Vanillaizer in that scenario because scum can change roles by killing anyway. It is a bit weird why Eevee never got rid of his Guilty role, though, and the best explanations I can come up with off the top of my head are:

1) someone else in the scum team had a worse negative utility ability that they needed to get rid of
2) Eevee was immune to the role changing mechanic

Also... just saying, If Eevee was Ascetic that means he can't be targeted right? So how would Skum!Robz target Eevee to rid him of his power? Doesn't Ascetic just mean it would fail?

Yes possibly, but EFHW was saying that sometimes Ascetic scum aren't protected while they're performing the NK.

[Swowl]

I found this on mafiawiki:

"Sometimes, an Ascetic killing role, such as an Ascetic Goon, Vigilante, or Serial Killer, forgoes its protection on a night when it is performing a kill."

What if scum!Robz was hoping to remove Eevee's guilty child role? We'd need an explanation for why it didn't work, though, assuming faust would tell Eevee that he would lose his protection if he did the kill. The nk didn't go through N2. Maybe he kept his protection as a result?

There's no need for the Vanillaizer in that scenario because scum can change roles by killing anyway. It is a bit weird why Eevee never got rid of his Guilty role, though, and the best explanations I can come up with off the top of my head are:

1) someone else in the scum team had a worse negative utility ability that they needed to get rid of
2) Eevee was immune to the role changing mechanic

Also... just saying, If Eevee was Ascetic that means he can't be targeted right? So how would Skum!Robz target Eevee to rid him of his power? Doesn't Ascetic just mean it would fail?

Yes possibly, but EFHW was saying that sometimes Ascetic scum aren't protected while they're performing the NK.

So, just making sure I got it here - Eevee did the kill to drop the shield as a positive utility in order to be VT? Why in the hell would Robz VT Eevee in that scenario? They could just have Eevee commit the kill and absorb the new power right?

If Eevee wasn't protected then Skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the kill would of swapped out their power yeah?
If Eevee was protected then skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the VT shot would not of landed yeah?

So.... I have to add that up but I am thinking confident on Robz being town at this point.

[iguanaiguana]

Yeah, I mean if Robz is scum he for sure had a 1 shot vanillaize only and maybe some other powers and is fakeclaiming.

Also why would mafia vanillaize McMc then push his lynch the next day? that's poor use of powers.

So yeah Robz is probably town.

[Hydrad]

Yeah, I mean if Robz is scum he for sure had a 1 shot vanillaize only and maybe some other powers and is fakeclaiming.

Also why would mafia vanillaize McMc then push his lynch the next day? that's poor use of powers.

So yeah Robz is probably town.

Robz also jumped onto the eevee wagon when I was about to lynch mcmc I think

[Hydrad]

vote: galz

[Galzria]

Stop.

I won't have time until tomorrow afternoon to catch up on everything and expand on all my thoughts but:

- If Space is town, then we have 5 town votes total today with theirs not counting. It takes 5 to lynch. As I'm town, it's impossible to get a correct lynch without me on the wagon. More to the point, it shouldn't really be feasible for you to have more than 5 votes on me very easily unless I'm town.

- Why would I, as scum, make a claim halfway through a mass claim that doesn't end up being verified? 1) I gambled and lost? That's a stupid gamble that pays off a tiny, tiny percent of the time. I would've been banking on just 3 remaining people (Space, Robz, Swan) to verify my claim not knowing what they were or who they targeted. 2) My scummates were behind me in the claim but didn't collaborate my story. This would be more believable... maybe, if you thought any of the 3 behind me were absent minded enough to let that happen. I started the talk of mass claim yesterday. Look back, and you'll see that everything I've said on the topic has been consistent with what I've claimed - you don't think as scum with that much forethought and bread crumbing we didn't talk over how we were going to handle the massclaim that was extremely likely to happen? The play and claim from a scum!Galzria perspective simply doesn't make any sense.

- The assumption here by people that "Because Galzria's claim doesn't work he's probably lying" is a ridiculous line of thought to follow in a RMM game. Scum are obviously lying about their powers. Things have happened that we can't explain without knowing what scum's powers are - that is, occam's razor in a normal game would suggest that yeah, I'm probably scum. In an RMM though it's more likely that scum have messed with shit than that I made up what appears to be a verifiably untrue claim.

- Lastly, stopping for a moment to actually look for where the most likely lies have occurred: Vote: Datswan. Either: Datswan is town and scum for some reason redirected to me twice N1/N2, which doesn't seem likely - or he's scum and has conveniently claimed Jimmm didn't go anywhere to prevent Jimmm from being the town that targeted me. That is - assume Datswan is lying. Now it's a whole lot more reasonable that town (Jimmm) targeted me N1, along with scum (Roleblock, Rolecop, whatever they actually have).

- Lastly twice: And this is important: If Swan is scum as I believe is the most likely case, and is TELLING THE TRUTH about being a 1 shot Vig, then scum can potentially win on my mislynch. With 9 alive (6 town, 3 scum), then after my lynch we go to 5 town 3 scum. If scum NK and Vig that's a D5 with 3 town, 3 scum. Now, we have some protective roles, which helps, but I think our best bet if you end up lynching me is to have the Lightning Rod (assuming they're town) activate. This -should- prevent multiple kills from occurring.

I'll expand more on all my thoughts tomorrow, but I wanted to have them out there before you all go rushing into a lynch that's, if you really stop to think about it, pretty idiotic here.

[faust]

Vote Count 4.2

Galzria (3): Robz888, iguanaiguana, Hydrad
DatSwan (1): Galzria

Not Voting (5): EFHW, Awaclus, SpaceAnemone, DatSwan, IDontPlayThisGame

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch. Day 4 ends June 24, 2018, 03:00:00 am.

[Awaclus]

So, just making sure I got it here - Eevee did the kill to drop the shield as a positive utility in order to be VT? Why in the hell would Robz VT Eevee in that scenario? They could just have Eevee commit the kill and absorb the new power right?

If Eevee wasn't protected then Skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the kill would of swapped out their power yeah?
If Eevee was protected then skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the VT shot would not of landed yeah?

>Eevee did the kill to drop the shield as a positive utility in order to be VT?
That's what EFHW was suggesting, and I was pointing out that he doesn't need to do that because he could just absorb the PR of whoever he kills. Which presumably he tried on N2 and it didn't work because the kill didn't go through.

>If Eevee wasn't protected then Skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the kill would of swapped out their power yeah?
Yeah.

>If Eevee was protected then skum Robz would not use a shot on them because the VT shot would not of landed yeah?
Yeah.

>So.... I have to add that up but I am thinking confident on Robz being town at this point.
Well, that's if you believe what he was saying. There are ways Robz can be scum:

1) He's not really a 2-shot Compulsive Vanillaizer. He's a Vanillaizer of some kind, but he may not have used it past N1.
2) He is really a 2-shot Compulsive Vanillaizer, but his N2 target wasn't Eevee. Instead, it was a different scumbuddy or a townie who got protected according to earlier claims.

[EFHW]

I'm thinking the ascetic part of his role would have prevented taking on the new role.

[iguanaiguana]

<b> unvote </b>

I need to think about Galz's text wall.

[EFHW]

I'm thinking the ascetic part of his role would have prevented taking on the new role.

That doesn't work. Either it drops completely or it's always there.  Too bad, it was such a pretty convergence of roles.

[iguanaiguana]

Unvote

[iguanaiguana]

Galz, who do you think targeted you N2?

[EFHW]

Galzria's argument points out the obvious flaw in the scum!Galz theory. But the explanations needed to account for it seem almost as unlikely as his having made such a bad fakeclaim.

Roleblock doesn't account for any actions he saw because he saw them. Rolecop is possible.  I don't think Jimmmmm wouldn't have used his bp so early, but maybe. So, yeah, who was it N2? For a redirect, you would see a scum in addition to the town. If godfather, they could have redirected someone who didn't take an action. Ninja redirector?

[EFHW]

Did nobody else find it surprising that I became a VT when trying to get mcmc's role?

Yes - Because while he said he had been VT'd at night, he didn't flip VT... so VT wasn't his PR... so I don't understand why you became VT.

Also, backups don't usually inherit VT. If the person that dies is VT then nothing happens. Having to pick a target also means he wasn't universal. Did you have to pick for the whole game, or could you change targets? Since we lynched mcmc, it's unlikely there was scum interference.

[EFHW]

I'm not saying these questions implicate Awaclus, but we haven't considered that gkrieg could have been redirected.

[Awaclus]

<b> unvote </b>

I need to think about Galz's text wall.

Scumslip!

[Awaclus]

Did nobody else find it surprising that I became a VT when trying to get mcmc's role?

Yes - Because while he said he had been VT'd at night, he didn't flip VT... so VT wasn't his PR... so I don't understand why you became VT.

Also, backups don't usually inherit VT. If the person that dies is VT then nothing happens. Having to pick a target also means he wasn't universal. Did you have to pick for the whole game, or could you change targets? Since we lynched mcmc, it's unlikely there was scum interference.

I had to target a dead person, and then I would receive their role.

[EFHW]

Did nobody else find it surprising that I became a VT when trying to get mcmc's role?

Yes - Because while he said he had been VT'd at night, he didn't flip VT... so VT wasn't his PR... so I don't understand why you became VT.

Also, backups don't usually inherit VT. If the person that dies is VT then nothing happens. Having to pick a target also means he wasn't universal. Did you have to pick for the whole game, or could you change targets? Since we lynched mcmc, it's unlikely there was scum interference.

I had to target a dead person, and then I would receive their role.

Could you target someone who was nk'd? Then would both you and scum have the role?

[Awaclus]

Did nobody else find it surprising that I became a VT when trying to get mcmc's role?

Yes - Because while he said he had been VT'd at night, he didn't flip VT... so VT wasn't his PR... so I don't understand why you became VT.

Also, backups don't usually inherit VT. If the person that dies is VT then nothing happens. Having to pick a target also means he wasn't universal. Did you have to pick for the whole game, or could you change targets? Since we lynched mcmc, it's unlikely there was scum interference.

I had to target a dead person, and then I would receive their role.

Could you target someone who was nk'd? Then would both you and scum have the role?

First question: yes. Second question: I assume so.

However, I specifically wanted to avoid targeting someone who was NK'd because that would have looked suspicious.

[EFHW]

Did nobody else find it surprising that I became a VT when trying to get mcmc's role?

Yes - Because while he said he had been VT'd at night, he didn't flip VT... so VT wasn't his PR... so I don't understand why you became VT.

Also, backups don't usually inherit VT. If the person that dies is VT then nothing happens. Having to pick a target also means he wasn't universal. Did you have to pick for the whole game, or could you change targets? Since we lynched mcmc, it's unlikely there was scum interference.

I had to target a dead person, and then I would receive their role.

Could you target someone who was nk'd? Then would both you and scum have the role?

First question: yes. Second question: I assume so.

However, I specifically wanted to avoid targeting someone who was NK'd because that would have looked suspicious.

Why did you target mcmc, when you knew he had been vanilla-ized?

[Awaclus]

Why did you target mcmc, when you knew he had been vanilla-ized?

I didn't notice he said that.