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[werothegreat]

Says who? Possession explicitly says you gain any tokens they would gain. "+Coffers" means gain a token. Which means if you are Possessed, and play Baker, the Possessor gets the token.

Possession does say "gain", but according to Donald, the Possessor only gets tokens the player would take, and this doesn't include tokens the player would put on or add to mats. Therefore no Pirate Ship tokens and no player tokens from Adventures (except the -$1 token). And now, no Coin tokens. If this has been omitted from the wiki, I suggest it's added.

Aha.  That's an interesting distinction.  Even though VP tokens in Prosperity get put on mats.  Is this why Empires didn't have any of those?

[markusin]

Link to Donald X.'s post about the upcoming change to Possession, for reference:

Can you discuss the rationale for the change from "coin tokens" to the "Coffers" mat in the second edition of Guilds? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18379.msg751151#msg751151

One potential benefit is to reduce the risk of confusion given that Pirate Ship, Trade Route, and Guilds cards use the same tokens.

It made sense to have a mat. It lets you put the rule for how they work right on the mat. It keeps the tokens distinct from ones used for Pirate Ship, or from unused tokens waiting to be used.

I had "Add a token to your Coffers." Well "+1 Coffers" is way shorter. And familiar, people get it immediately. It gets to go with the other +'s. It looks nice on the cards.

As I mentioned in Discord, there is another change coming that you won't see until Alchemy, which is, Possession is now going to call out the Debt token specifically - you get the cards they would get and the Debt tokens they would get. It will have the symbol on the card, weird though that is.

[werothegreat]

Link to Donald X.'s post about the upcoming change to Possession, for reference:

Can you discuss the rationale for the change from "coin tokens" to the "Coffers" mat in the second edition of Guilds? http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=18379.msg751151#msg751151

One potential benefit is to reduce the risk of confusion given that Pirate Ship, Trade Route, and Guilds cards use the same tokens.

It made sense to have a mat. It lets you put the rule for how they work right on the mat. It keeps the tokens distinct from ones used for Pirate Ship, or from unused tokens waiting to be used.

I had "Add a token to your Coffers." Well "+1 Coffers" is way shorter. And familiar, people get it immediately. It gets to go with the other +'s. It looks nice on the cards.

As I mentioned in Discord, there is another change coming that you won't see until Alchemy, which is, Possession is now going to call out the Debt token specifically - you get the cards they would get and the Debt tokens they would get. It will have the symbol on the card, weird though that is.

Aha.  That is going to be a confusing thing for players who have Alchemy but not Empires, but probably less confusing overall than remembering you take other players' - token.

But this essentially means that until Possession is updated (either hard copy or online), then my logic should still work.

[singletee]

Uhhhh....

So, not all tokens anymore? Just the debt tokens?

Yes, that's what I'm saying, just Debt tokens.

How are you guys concluding that Possession works on anything other than debt tokens? It's directly contradicted in the above quote.

[markusin]

Uhhhh....

So, not all tokens anymore? Just the debt tokens?

Yes, that's what I'm saying, just Debt tokens.

How are you guys concluding that Possession works on anything other than debt tokens? It's directly contradicted in the above quote.

The change is not live yet though, as the new version of the Alchemy rulebook has not been released, while Coffers is already a thing.

[GendoIkari]

Uhhhh....

So, not all tokens anymore? Just the debt tokens?

Yes, that's what I'm saying, just Debt tokens.

How are you guys concluding that Possession works on anything other than debt tokens? It's directly contradicted in the above quote.

The change is not live yet though, as the new version of the Alchemy rulebook has not been released, while Coffers is already a thing.

But this whole discussion was about the new rule change! majiponi's post that started the whole thing specifically talked about the new rule change, and was clarifying that, under the new rule, coin tokens would stay with the possessed person who actually played Baker.

All the other discussion seems to have been a mix of confusion concerning people who either didn't know that there was a new rule change, or thinking that we were talking about the current (obsolete) version of the rule.

[GendoIkari]

You have this backwards. He was asking about playing Baker while he was possessed; not about forcing someone to play Baker while Possessing them. And indeed, the rule is changing again; it is now back to the original printed first edition Possession, for everything except .

Not exactly, the Possessor also gets VP tokens, and (horribly) the -$1 token.

Here's the timeline, assuming that you would always play with the newest versions of everything:

* Possessor gets no tokens.

* Empires is released, with Possession errata in the rulebook. Possessor gets Debt tokens, Coin tokens and the -$1 token. Possessor doesn't get Pirate Ship tokens, based on the way Pirate Ship works as explained in the Seaside rulebook (later corrected in the 2nd edition card text).

* Prosperity 2nd edition is released, with changed rules about VP tokens. Possessor now gets VP tokens, Debt tokens, Coin tokens and the -$1 token.

* Guilds 2nd edition is released, with changed rules about Coin tokens. Possessor now gets VP tokens, Debt tokens and the -$1 token.

Are you sure rule #2 ever existed? Empires Previews #1 was where Donald first mentioned that Possession was receiving errata, and from the very beginning he said that the possessor would get VP tokens in addition to debt and coin tokens. I don't see any time when there was a rule that made VP tokens different from Debt or Coin.

Oh right. I forgot to mention it, but Possession is getting errata. No joke, errata. It will now cause the possessing player to also get all tokens the other player would have gotten. This means they will also get VP tokens, which wasn't the point, but was the simplest way to make debt + Possession not suck.

[Jeebus]

Are you sure rule #2 ever existed? Empires Previews #1 was where Donald first mentioned that Possession was receiving errata, and from the very beginning he said that the possessor would get VP tokens in addition to debt and coin tokens. I don't see any time when there was a rule that made VP tokens different from Debt or Coin.

The Empires rulebook said that you take VP tokens, the original Prosperity rulebook said that you take VP tokens and put them on your mat. Empires didn't mention any mats, but for people with Prosperity it would seem that you use the mats, since the rulebook didn't mention any specific rules change about taking VP tokens. But you're right, Donald did declare that rules change online when Empires was released, so following all official announcements, printed or not, there was never any rule #2.

[Donald X.]

Aha.  That is going to be a confusing thing for players who have Alchemy but not Empires, but probably less confusing overall than remembering you take other players' - token.

Well I do get to explain it in the rulebook.

• Any cards the Possessed player would have gained in any way, you gain instead; this includes cards bought, as well as cards gained due to Actions. The cards you gain this way go to your discard pile, even if they would have gone to that player's hand or the top of their deck or somewhere else. You also get any [debt] tokens that player would have gotten (this is a change from the original version of Possession). You do not get any other tokens that player would have gotten (this is a change from the errata in Dominion: Empires). [debt] is something from Dominion: Empires; if you do not have those cards, that part of Possession's effects does not matter.

[crj]

Is it too late to sneak in some wording that clarifies what happens to States during a Possessed turn?

(My reading of LastFootnote's answer to me over on BGG is that the Possessed player gets States as normal, though he didn't explicitly state that.)

[Donald X.]

Is it too late to sneak in some wording that clarifies what happens to States during a Possessed turn?

(My reading of LastFootnote's answer to me over on BGG is that the Possessed player gets States as normal, though he didn't explicitly state that.)

It is way too late.

The possessing player has no rule giving them States, and so does not get them. States are not gained cards or debt tokens.

[ClouduHieh]

Thanks for that info cascade... I’ll definitely give lookout another try. There have been other cards in the past that I didn’t think were great. But I think are cool now. Examples stone mason, smugglers, and story teller. Man I have had some good games with storyteller! It’s a powerful card. After you figure out it’s wonkyness. Even though I have had to replace cards. It hasn’t bothered me that much. It’s just so hard to find blank cards none of the new expansions have them. Luckily my 2nd to last expansion I bought seaside had 12 of them which I haven’t used yet. But since I’m an animal lover and a zoo volunteer. Replacing cards that my stepfather didn’t like with mostly animals has been mostly great. I even had to replace curses. Wastelands make more sense for a minus score anyway. Snake pit replaced witch, monkey replaced oracle, poisen apples replaced scrying pool, bee pheromones replaced familiar, truth serum replaced possession, desert replaced fortune teller, earthquake replaced cultist, and ruined fountain replaced mystic. Thankfully I got to keep most of the vauge cards. Like ghost ship, haunted woods, entantress mostly cause theres a pig in the picture, sea hag, swamp hag, soothsayer, and I’ll gotten gains. Oh and haunted castle too. Of course I’m disappointed with nocturne in more ways than one. First of all I’d have to replace half the expansion. And then it adds another 2 hours to gameplay. Most of my friends aren’t ready for it, too complicated for them. And I just don’t have enough blank cards. The only other expansion I don’t have is intrigue. But only because I’m trying to find the original at reasonable price. I want sabatour and secret chamber! And tribute looked like an interesting interactive card. Coppersmith would be an awesome addition to my copper strategy games. Apothecary, counting house, settlers, bustling village, beggar, fountain, goons, storyteller, gardens. Even just a couple of these in the game is a strong copper strategy. So I’ll just stick to nocturne online only. Oh and after the disappointment of nocturne I’ve decided to create my own dominion expansion for me and my friends to enjoy. The snowline expansion. It still in process. But have most of the info for most of the cards down. It has 2 new traveler cards, duration, reserve, and some cards will use the journey token(boot). Here’s a few cards I have put together. Yeti, frigid village, fur trader which is the end of one of the travelers, avalanche, and snow shoes. I’ve also got some new alchemy cards too. And some of the actions have plus + 1 potion. Meaning once you buy them you may not have to hang on to potion cards anymore. Here’s the cards: mad scientist, panacea, mortar and pestle, the potter, magnifying glass, and wine cellar. I even have my own promo card! Village idiot which is a duration attack card.

[pacovf]

I am confused... why would you have a problem with Witch and Curse, but not with Haunted Castle and an Enchantress turning people into pigs? I could understand having a problem with all of them, but only with some...?

[GendoIkari]

I am confused... why would you have a problem with Witch and Curse, but not with Haunted Castle and an Enchantress turning people into pigs? I could understand having a problem with all of them, but only with some...?

Witchcraft is specifically mentioned and condemned in the Bible; so some branches of Christianity have strong feelings about the subject. This generally includes things such as fortune tellers as well. Ghosts and haunting and such are generally not in that same category.

For Enchantress, while that card in particular may be intended to refer to basically the same thing as a witch, the word "enchantress" has other meanings as well, so someone who is just going off of the card names might not think of it.

But I'd be careful with this line of discussion; it is edging on an RSP split.

[ClouduHieh]

Well ghost town, haunted woods, ect. Didn’t bother him because there are plenty of ghost towns that were abandoned and not because they were haunted. And if your in a forest at night it can be spooky doesn’t mean it’s haunted though. So those cards are vague. However the hex haunting and ghost have pictures of actual ghosts and I would have to throw those out. Devils workshop is also horrible along with imp. The only way anything with devil in the name, would a thorny devil lizard, Tasmanian devil, and deviled eggs. Those are the only things associated with the word devil that my folks would find acceptable. They don’t mind if I play a game that has some magic like final fantasy. They just don’t want those cards in their house. So I can play with any card online. I have asbergers syndrome so I can’t live on my own. It’s their house there rules. At least I can keep the vague ones( mostly because I don’t have enough blank cards to replace all the vauge cards)

[ClouduHieh]

Anyway since I’ve had to replace a lot of cards. I’ve had to get creative. And if I got nocturne I already have ideas to replace most of the cards I’d have to replace. But that’s when I decided why not make my own expansion. I saw others have done it online too. It’s still in process. And then I thought about alchemy, there’s so many empty inserts in the box, it’s almost like their challenging us to make more cards for it. After all they combined guilds and cornucopia cause they were small. And they never made another small expansion. So alchemy seems like a lonely expansion if you ask me. I know most people hate it. But I dislike prosperity mostly because half of the treasure cards are not worth buying and there’s not many actions. That’s why I’m adding a few more actions ect. To alchemy. To make it more fun to play with. Cause I love a lot of the cards in that expansion. Apothecary, poisen apples(scrying pool), vineyard, golem, university only if there’s a few other actions costing 5, alchemist, truth serum (possession), bee pheromones (familiar), herbalist, philosophers stone, transmute, and apprentice as the worst card. Unless you play it with certain cards. In that order. So I’m adding a new treasure, a new reaction since it didn’t have any. A new attack powerful card. But with a minus score attached to it. So you’ll think twice about buying too many. A new action-victory. And 2 new duration cards with potion in its cost. Just something for me and my friends to enjoy. While we wait for the next expansion to come out. If there is one.

[ackmondual]

Having a component to label the Bane card was just as surprising.  Not needed, but nice-to-have.  Many groups I've played have done one of the following, all working out:
1) put the Bane card way off to the side
2) "tap it" (aka, turn it 90 degrees)
3) put a glass bead next to it.

Another update I'm wondering about is if they allowed Poor House to be the Bane card, as even though the rules call for a 2 or 3-cost card in the Kingdom, I suspected Poor House would've been fine too.  DVX was last OK with that...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12682225#12682225

What timing.  This past Saturday, after years of playing this game mind you, my wife played a Candlestick Maker, took her coin token, and asked where her coin token mat was.  She was very upset when I told here there wasn't one.  Now, when I needlessly buy the 2E version because I want all the new shiny, I can say I was just trying to make her happy.

Dominion and happiness go hand-in-hand

[LastFootnote]

Another update I'm wondering about is if they allowed Poor House to be the Bane card, as even though the rules call for a 2 or 3-cost card in the Kingdom, I suspected Poor House would've been fine too.  DVX was last OK with that...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12682225#12682225

No, the Bane card still has to cost $2 or $3. Just because Donald would have been OK with Poor House being the Bane doesn't mean that he'd change it in a reprint. The idea is to change as little as possible, and changing functionality just so one extra card can also be a Bane for Young Witch doesn't qualify. I mean sure it's a small change, but the benefit you'd get from that change is at least as small, and the impetus is heavily toward not changing things.

[mubiks1]

Thought I'd point out that Guilds & Cornucopia 2E now seems to be generally available. $39.49 from Amazon, Target, Walmart, probably elsewhere.

Amazon also offers a 5% off coupon that you click to apply, making it $38.04: https://www.amazon.com/Dominion-Cornucopia-Guilds-Card-Game/dp/B00XRDONWS

If you want to order other games too, Target offers $10 off $50 or $25 off $100 on their "toys" category, which includes games. Discount automatically applies in cart: https://www.target.com/p/rio-grande-games-dominion-cornucopia-and-guilds-card-game-expansions-board-game/-/A-51604536

[ackmondual]

Another update I'm wondering about is if they allowed Poor House to be the Bane card, as even though the rules call for a 2 or 3-cost card in the Kingdom, I suspected Poor House would've been fine too.  DVX was last OK with that...
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/12682225#12682225

No, the Bane card still has to cost $2 or $3. Just because Donald would have been OK with Poor House being the Bane doesn't mean that he'd change it in a reprint. The idea is to change as little as possible, and changing functionality just so one extra card can also be a Bane for Young Witch doesn't qualify. I mean sure it's a small change, but the benefit you'd get from that change is at least as small, and the impetus is heavily toward not changing things.

That's a shame.  At least its easy enough to house rule.

[werothegreat]

Feast yer eyes on the high-res Coffers mat:

[crj]

Yes, it's very pretty. But it only depicts one coffer!

This is all going to continue to bug me; I can tell. )-8

[ThetaSigma12]

Feast yer eyes on the high-res Coffers mat:

Between Ryan Laukat's art, the font, and the scroll text boxes I would swear it came from a Red Raven game if I didn't know better.

[Awaclus]

Yes, it's very pretty. But it only depicts one coffer!

It depicts 1 Coffers.

[werothegreat]

Huh.  It looks like Jay uploaded the updated Alchemy rulebook to the RGG site.  Is it available for purchase yet?