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[faust]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

[faust]

While mcmc's post was interesting, I am super not a fan of narrative-building this early as it only serves to reinforce whatever beliefs you already hold, because every narrative is possible. I can as easily explain that iguana was a wagon on scum that his scumpartners deflected and then the townies on it moved off because it wasn't going anywhere as mcmc can claim it was a wagon on town with 2 scums on it. Neither view holds any value unless we can point to a player with confirmed alignment that behaved according to our theory.

[mcmcsalot]

While mcmc's post was interesting, I am super not a fan of narrative-building this early as it only serves to reinforce whatever beliefs you already hold, because every narrative is possible. I can as easily explain that iguana was a wagon on scum that his scumpartners deflected and then the townies on it moved off because it wasn't going anywhere as mcmc can claim it was a wagon on town with 2 scums on it. Neither view holds any value unless we can point to a player with confirmed alignment that behaved according to our theory.

I'm aware you don't like narrative building, I find it vastly more helpful than stating gut reads, might as well play those gut/weak reads out and see where it gets you. I disagree all narratives are possible, some are quickly broken up by voting patterns ect. I do agree simple case making is better but I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been. Other than that I have made my simple case on Lalight, his vote for you after voting iguana whom you were pushing and haddock who was the only other person with votes at the time followed by a clumsy "can i get a vote count" and calling iguana out for "worrying about being a top wagon" something he claimed he only does as scum. It looked as though he quickly was voting all the people being voted finding a place where he wanted to sit his scummy vote and didn't take the full time to realize how some of those votes contradicted eachother then sloppily made a case on the person his vote finally ended on.

So dunno what else you want me to do faust I think your tunneling of rr isn't the most helpful, after midday when you made your case on him which was alright, you have kinda just pestered people that they should vote rr and then keep reinforcing that "lots of people find him scummy" not something I found much proof of at all.

and I guess while were at it what do you think of the factual case based stuff I have laid out on Lalight and CJ

[faust]

So dunno what else you want me to do faust I think your tunneling of rr isn't the most helpful, after midday when you made your case on him which was alright, you have kinda just pestered people that they should vote rr and then keep reinforcing that "lots of people find him scummy" not something I found much proof of at all.

Seems weird coming from you...

Roadrunner and lalight came off as the most scummy on this part.

and I guess while were at it what do you think of the factual case based stuff I have laid out on Lalight and CJ

Well I don't see any problem with LaLight voting me first and then the player that I'm voting for. I mean why would that be scummy even? The other part of the case was I think that he didn't comment on theory stuff? Which isn't that surprising when you're VLA. I mean he's not the worst lynch ever, and he hasn't been particularly townie, but I don't see anything that really sways me.

i don't think I read any case from you on Jelly. There's something about vote analysis that is super weak and also based on some townreads that I don't really share. Other than that i think you just said "i think Jelly is scummy" fairly early on without giving any reason.

[mcmcsalot]

alrighty, I think we have slightly different reads, I fell similarly about roadrunner that you do about lalight, hes not a terrible lynch, I don't think there is much there, I reread your case and its just that rr is being hedgy and you didn't like his picks of Lalight, haddock, and gkrieg as scums (I think those are fine picks) and you didn't like his baseless defense of iguana and thought his question about revealing cards at L-1 was scummy. So yea i don't think he's been particularly helpful, he's not the worst lynch ever, but I don't see anything that really sways me.

Also haddock has been around and viewing every once in awhile and isn't posting. He's kinda scummy.

[EFHW]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

[mcmcsalot]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

Reasonable, whats the more you have on CJ?

[EFHW]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I feel like Lalight isn't engaged in the game. I don't feel any sense of ulterior motives or scum agenda, he just seems flighty and not present. The dama stuff is dominating my impression of him the most. Your narrative is consistent, a good story that could be true. I guess I need more.

Reasonable, whats the more you have on CJ?

Voting for the same person that faust is voting for is not the same as following his authority.  Faust doesn't own that wagon.  I've contributed little to set-up talk or theory, so I'm going to contribute my vote, and a wagon of one helps nobody.

I find this justification kind of lame. Cheesy Jelly voted when any wagon could still become a going concern. The closer we get to deadline without new wagons emerging, the more committed we are to existing wagons.

This makes me want to support a one vote wagon, but I don't have cases better than this one. vote: CheesyJelly

[CheesyJelly]

Vote: mcmcsalot

I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been.

You've put so much work into constructing a scum!me narrative to justify joining my wagon and putting me at L-2, and then immediately hedge by claiming it's not much.  I just don't buy it.


I can't promise I'll be around at the deadline.  At least you'll all have lots of relevant chat about me to look through if I get lynched!  Use it wisely, friends.

[theorel]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I'm confused...I thought you made the case that lalight is normally upbeat, but was using dama to fake it.  Rereading your case, that's not the case you made at all, did someone else make that case?  Was it about someone else? Was it in a different game?

Um...anyways, basically lalight and cj have been acting a lot in parallel to one another. Both voted faust, both then sheeped faust onto iguana, both then voted for skumpy.  Man that's just weird.  In each case cj followed lalight, and so I find cj scummier for it...it seems more likely for scum to follow a town-player's votes than the other way 'round.

[Skumpy]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

And of 11 other people, not one has decided this is a good enough case to jump ship, which has warning signs blazing all over it. CJ, howzabout you vote here? Not that I think mc is the towniest, but you're not getting the support for that today.

I'm not a big fan of narratives or gut reads. On the one hand, I like the deduction, but as faust said, it's too damn tough when we don't know any alignments. And while it's nice to try to build a conspiracy case, then that will absolutely never be 100% right. People are assuming scum's stupid - they're not. They're going to be trying to do as much towny stuff as possible. I won't deny it can have partial success, but I still think there's a lot of murk troubling the waters. On the other hand, gut reads day 1 often lead to trouble for me, or at least I'm 0/1. Still, as faust said, the RR behavior is lining up pretty nicely with scum RR behavior. Right down to the final day prod for not being active. Pretty soon, RR will show up and apologize for not being around then say he'll be back later to make a vote.

On that note: I'm sorry I won't be around, and I'll be back later to change my vote if needed, about an hour before deadline. Admittedly didn't have time to carefully read MC's case, so I guess I'm just tabling it for now in favor of my RR read.

[mcmcsalot]

Would still love to get Theorel, EFHW, 2.7 and Gkreigs opinions of my lalaight case.

I'm confused...I thought you made the case that lalight is normally upbeat, but was using dama to fake it.  Rereading your case, that's not the case you made at all, did someone else make that case?  Was it about someone else? Was it in a different game?

Um...anyways, basically lalight and cj have been acting a lot in parallel to one another. Both voted faust, both then sheeped faust onto iguana, both then voted for skumpy.  Man that's just weird.  In each case cj followed lalight, and so I find cj scummier for it...it seems more likely for scum to follow a town-player's votes than the other way 'round.

No I was saying that lalight is normally upbeat and that makes his posts sound less scummy and underhanded, his dama exacerbated this fact and I think people are letting slide what were some very scummy vote movements and reasons from him during that time.

[silverspawn]

Yeah CJ is a fine lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: mcmcsalot

I don't have much more of a case on CJ then skumpy's case and how opportunistic CJ's votes have been.

You've put so much work into constructing a scum!me narrative to justify joining my wagon and putting me at L-2, and then immediately hedge by claiming it's not much.  I just don't buy it.


I can't promise I'll be around at the deadline.  At least you'll all have lots of relevant chat about me to look through if I get lynched!  Use it wisely, friends.

this is a misrepresentation and scummary of my thoughts. Sorry I wasn't here to make the post by post cases on players as the action happened I subbed in with mere hours to deadline and then got a 24 hour extension which I didn't even know I would get. The post you are quoting takes out of context that I was responding to faust who called my case very narrative based and that it should have had more direct scum read statements. I was saying that my case was mostly narative based and summarized a large amount of scummy behavior I saw because I am getting at it after the fact, I then go on to site Skumpy's case (your big attack of faust followed by you thinking the iguana case was great followed by what efhw pointed out was a scummy response and reasoning) as the primary basis for me finding you scummy not the only reason. Not hedging, expanding.

[gkrieg13]

wv: mcmcsalot

[gkrieg13]

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

[gkrieg13]

I don't really want to lynch iguana, mcmcsalot, or faust, and I don't usually want to lynch high-posting people (I think the game is more fun with them, and it is easier to read them).  I also won't be around for deadline (in a meeting), so I'm leaving my vote on CJ.  I might check around before my meeting, but I have to prepare for the meeting so no promises.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 1.8

CheesyJelly (6): theorel, 2.71828....., EFHW, gkrieg13, silverspawn, mcmcsalot
Roadrunner7671 (2): faust, Skumpy
Skumpy (3): Awaclus, LaLight, Roadrunner7671
LaLight (1): iguanaiguana
mcmcsalot (1): CheesyJelly
Not Voting (1): Haddock

With 14 alive, it takes 8 to lynch.
D1 ends at 17.30 forum time on Tuesday 30th January. This is in a little over 2 hours.

[faust]

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

[gkrieg13]

The people who don't want a Jelly lynch need to coordinate. If there is to be a serious alternative to that lynch, everyone not voting Jelly must be on the same wagon. And say what you will about whether or not Jelly is scummy, but it's always better for analysis if there's actually an alternative.

The other things that we can still call wagons are Skumpy and RR. Skumpy is not going to happen as Skumpy himself is off the Jelly wagon and will hardly self-vote. So, I present you the alternative: RR.

Unless anyone's up for the classic last-minute Awaclus lynch.

I would vote for RR.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry for not being around guys, I'll put a vote somewhere in a bit

[Roadrunner7671]

The roadrunner wagon has gone nowhere and has really just been faust sitting on him because rr defended iguana baselessly and if one belives iguana is scum rr follows.

This is not the argument I am making. The argument is rather that RR behaves like his scum self - hedgy, lurky, no opinions, reluctant to join wagons - and not like his town self, which is more independent-minded.

I'm kidding in my above post btw. In response to this, I'm trying not to setup talk which really limits my activeness (whoops) and also makes me hedgier I guess, maybe. But when you're talking about independent minded, I'd say it's pretty independent to say iguana is town when lots of other people say he's scum, yes?

[silverspawn]

Until he changes his meta, I'm always up for an Awaclus lynch. It has to happen sooner or later anyway.

[Roadrunner7671]

I don't really love skumpy's case on me. I haven't played with him all that much and I'm still getting back into the swing of things, so I think now is a particularly hard time to read me, especially if you're not used to !RR. Faust seems to want to lynch me because I put forth no content (which is fair) but that's also just how I can roll (especially on D1) which I think Faust knows.


Also I'm gonna WV: EFHW if I get the chance.

[Roadrunner7671]

Sorry guys, this has probably been my lowest activity for a game ever.  Reading along very sporadically and missing entire pages.  I get townie vibes from Mcmcsalot, and faust is also up there.  I don't get what is scummy about skumpy.  CJ still seems scummy to me and iguana has started looking townier.

Also, can we talk about how gkrieg gets towny vibes from mcmcsalot 1 minute after voting for him?