Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[silverspawn]

It might even be possible that this breaks the setup to a certain degree.

We could do a partial claim – everyone could claim whether they have at least one blue card. Then near the EoD, we could vote on who visits whom.

[silverspawn]

... ah but we can't check whether someone did use WW. That's too bad. I was really getting excited there.

Still, there might be something. I'll think about it more...

[theorel]

I don't think your plan works beyond just checking whether someone used weak visitor.  We're limited by the batteries...in addition we would need some people in red and some people in blue for it to work (because otherwise we may have to cross the ship and get 1 total cop/wv shot on that night).
And of course, we'll need to recharge the central batteries.
And we're agreeing at that point to leave several players available for nks.

All-in-all I'd rather we just try to wiggle the mouse, but not talk about who's doing it after night 1.  For night1 it doesn't really matter who does it, but we should definitely agree who is doing it, since we sacrifice little by doing so (that player can still grab an action, or go to lower decks), and potentially gain a good deal.  I do think the best bet is for someone to volunteer for it, so that we know that player has a "C" card.

Anyways, I think our best bet for coordinating night actions is for someone to post what they think good actions are (so that players who aren't as keen on mechanics can play reasonably, oh look I did that already), and someone to volunteer to wiggle the mouse night 1 (I'll do it, unless there is some severe objection).

I mean, actually breaking the set-up really seems against the spirit of the game.  I personally think that excessive coordination will harm us more than help us.  Everyone announcing a weak visitor target at the end of the day isn't a bad idea, if anyone is going to use that action.  I feel like I'd rather get printout, tracker, cop, roleblock, and commuter shots.  and then get to the lower level to force scum to likely miss some shots tomorrow.
I understand the desire for control, but I think control ultimately really helps scum and hurts town in the vast majority of cases.

[theorel]

I don't think your plan works beyond just checking whether someone used weak visitor.  We're limited by the batteries...in addition we would need some people in red and some people in blue for it to work (because otherwise we may have to cross the ship and get 1 total cop/wv shot on that night).
And of course, we'll need to recharge the central batteries.
And we're agreeing at that point to leave several players available for nks.

All-in-all I'd rather we just try to wiggle the mouse, but not talk about who's doing it after night 1.  For night1 it doesn't really matter who does it, but we should definitely agree who is doing it, since we sacrifice little by doing so (that player can still grab an action, or go to lower decks), and potentially gain a good deal.  I do think the best bet is for someone to volunteer for it, so that we know that player has a "C" card.

Anyways, I think our best bet for coordinating night actions is for someone to post what they think good actions are (so that players who aren't as keen on mechanics can play reasonably, oh look I did that already), and someone to volunteer to wiggle the mouse night 1 (I'll do it, unless there is some severe objection).

I mean, actually breaking the set-up really seems against the spirit of the game.  I personally think that excessive coordination will harm us more than help us.  Everyone announcing a weak visitor target at the end of the day isn't a bad idea, if anyone is going to use that action.  I feel like I'd rather get printout, tracker, cop, roleblock, and commuter shots.  and then get to the lower level to force scum to likely miss some shots tomorrow.
I understand the desire for control, but I think control ultimately really helps scum and hurts town in the vast majority of cases.

that should say "get at least some players to the lower level".  I don't think we need everyone down there...but enough to make it tough on scum (or at least force them to burn actions/cards to open the airlock).

[faust]

If we try to coordinate or really optimize night actions at all,  we'll spend all day talking about how best to do it, then lynch a random person.

Which actually for D1 might not be that bad.

That D1 hate is getting seriously tiresome.

I think it is just hard for me to look for scum tells in a wash of theory talk. Not so for you?

Not particularly. But we have reached the end of theory talk mostly and should start to focus on our scumhunting.

Are you not interested in theory talk at all?

[faust]

Here's my current town-to-scum, to get us started:

silverspawn
gkrieg
EFHW

theorel
e

LaLight
luckat
RR

Haddock
Skumpy
Awaclus

Jelly
iguana

[faust]

Also request prod on luckat

[Skumpy]

Here's my current town-to-scum, to get us started:

silverspawn
gkrieg
EFHW

theorel
e

LaLight
luckat
RR

Haddock
Skumpy
Awaclus

Jelly
iguana

Ouch.


I still stand by my suggestion in #201 for assigning the first 3 players specific objectives in order to take care of the key maintenance, while allowing the rest of the players to have fun. But nobody's commenting on it and it saddens me because it makes me feel unwanted. Rest of this post will half be me restating it, half feedback on others.

Again, I'm in favor of:
1st in turn order lifts down, replenishes, and gets a printout
2nd goes Red, lifts down, and replenishes Red
3rd Wiggles, lifts down, and replenishes White

which also has the benefit of discouraging scum from starting the night in a higher position. Those 3 do their jobs, everybody else can go around using upper deck actions and/or trying to get to the lower deck. We don't need multiple people to be filling pools, but we need someone to do it, so let's do it at the start of turn order when it can't be stopped and when people can be held accountable if something goes wrong. I ate a fortune cookie today with a fortune that said to "Unveil your ideas and act on them", so I'm going to believe in that divine ethnic sign. The one problem: is everybody capable of doing all 3 potential tasks? I'm just going to come out and say that I could with my hand.


Wiggling the Mouse: Why this was ever a topic of conversation, I don't know. Someone needs to. There have been multiple ideas for how to make sure it gets done. I say we go with one, and don't even consider not wiggling - that's dumb.

Weak Visitor stuff: I agree, I think everyone claiming a weak visitor target is a very good idea, so long as they stick to it. Keep in mind it's easy for scum to use upper Red C to disable the weak visitor (and doctor), though this won't burn the blue energy. I think someone absolutely should try to use Blue powers tonight because if they fail and the blue pool stays at 2/3, then that means there was a scum who ended the night tampering at upper Red. 13 or 14 people are fighting over the same stuff - the less overlap, the better.

Roleblocker: Um, so I disagree severely with Theorel; can we all just agree to not roleblock for the time being? Best case scenario is stopping a NK...which could also potentially be stopped by a commute or a doctor. The risk far outweighs the reward. Not to mention it burns Tracker juice.

Status Print-out: Again....people seem to be underrating this; if at least 2 people are alive with print-outs, and if one of them is town, then we will know exactly who did what actions. No need to worry about Cop Switching because they'll be caught. It gives some insight into more-or-less where people are. It informs us of one action taken by certain players the night before, which helps narrow down who used the scum NK (maybe).

Trackers/Cops: Remember, there's a limit of one mafia-game action per player a phase and a limit of one A/B action each per round. That still leaves 3 tracker shots and 2 cop shots up for grabs for 5 people during N1. That's a lot of firepower, people can aim for those. Or some people might try blue. Or some might try to get below deck and use an A action or something. Whatever. Everyone has options, and will have more if the first few players are coordinated and do the boring stuff nobody else wants to do.

If anybody wants to come out and at least give me a "No. Shut up," that would be appreciated.

[faust]

No. Shut up.

I think we've had enough theory talk for everyone to have an idea of what good things to do are.

One thing though: You seem to be misunderstanding Status Print-Out. It does not tell us who did what action, only which actions were being done.

[faust]

I ate a fortune cookie today with a fortune that said to "Unveil your ideas and act on them", so I'm going to believe in that divine ethnic sign.

Also, this is my new favorite mafia quote.

[Skumpy]

One thing though: You seem to be misunderstanding Status Print-Out. It does not tell us who did what action, only which actions were being done.

Oh. Well, at least I wasn't the first to get something wrong.

[Awaclus]

In other news, I just read the setup. I'll catch up soon.

[silverspawn]

We're not done with theory talk! We haven't reached a consensus on anything, not even on not wiggling the mouse. So far we're at 'everyone does what they think' which I don't think is that good.

I still stand by my suggestion in #201 for assigning the first 3 players specific objectives in order to take care of the key maintenance, while allowing the rest of the players to have fun. But nobody's commenting on it and it saddens me because it makes me feel unwanted. Rest of this post will half be me restating it, half feedback on others.

I"ll address it now.

3rd Wiggles, lifts down, and replenishes White

Wiggling the Mouse: Why this was ever a topic of conversation, I don't know. Someone needs to. There have been multiple ideas for how to make sure it gets done. I say we go with one, and don't even consider not wiggling - that's dumb.

The number of rooms we have is not the bottleneck for how much stuff we can do. You wouldn't visit most of the rooms anyway, and even you wanted to, you can just go to another one instead. We have 6 cards, most of us will be able to go wherever we want. So the value lost from one room being blocked isn't that big.

On the other hand, upper blue being blocked makes upper red better because of the cop switch, and upper red blocked makes upper blue better because then we can actually coordinate the weak visitor thing (otherwise scum can just go to upper red and block the blue actions). This can actually be done fairly well. If the mouse is not wiggled tomorrow, I'll explain how. In the meanwhile, if you're town, don't wiggle. That's the thing I'm most confident about right now.

[Awaclus]

I think we should coordinate wiggling the mouse today.

[faust]

Sigh.

Coordinating Weak Visitor seems dangerous. At best, we get a 50/50 shot at one scum at the cost of 1 town death. At worst, lots of people die and scum just wins.

[silverspawn]

ffs I now wrote two posts detailing a plan only to dismiss both

[silverspawn]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

[faust]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

I am not sold that wiggling the mouse is so bad. I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

[CheesyJelly]

I'm pretty sure I have the cards to do whatever is needed tonight.  I'm rating high on faust scumsenses, so I'm happy to be directed to be A Person Who Does Things, just someone tell me what to do.

[theorel]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

I still completely object to no one wiggling mouse.  I think Red getting blocked is terrible for town, while Blue getting blocked is only marginally bad. 

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action, and given a random 3 players there's only like a 50% chance that they all have those 2 cards.  And you'd like them to have another card reducing probability even further.
Additionally, third player should obviously do Lift-B-A (or better would be Lift-B-B).  Since those central actions are going to be taken, and if central has 1 energy left players 1 and 2 are completely wasting their turns. 
Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

I feel like you're over-stating the ability we have to get around.  Moving 1 zone takes 1 phase.  Getting from Red to Blue takes 2 phases of the game.  Getting from lower red to upper white also takes 2 phases.
Now obviously we shouldn't all be going up the lifts to get powers, but some people should.  If red and blue are not blocked, someone can lift-power-lift, and be able to make a choice regarding risking nk again next turn.  If one of them is blocked, that choice is removed completely...for no reason because we could've just wiggled the mouse this turn.  So, as of this moment, I'm still planning on wiggling the mouse.
Additionally, if I'm one of the first 3 players, just pretend I'm not on the list, and I will not get in the way of the above proposed lift-actions (since wiggling the mouse necessarily prevents me from doing it).

[silverspawn]

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

[silverspawn]

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action

No, for it to 'work' it just needs to have more players successfully going to the bottom half than a FFA strategy.

Your point that one replenish might not be enough is valid.

[theorel]

Okay, Lifts, v2.

I agree with Skumpy that we should direct the first players in order, because if not scum just takes the first lifts. So

First player goes Red – Lift – B
Second player goes Blue – Lift – B
Thid player goes Lift – A – B
... if they can.

Everything else is up to each player's discretion, but do keep the restriction in mind. If p2 uses the blue lift in the second round, then p3 to 5 can't, etc. I think tomorrow we should do more elaborate plans with randomized numbers, but not yet. They become better if more players are at the bottom part.

There's no real downside to doing this because the first players are going to use lift anyway if we plan nothing, except then all three might decide to take the white one and fewer get there. Similarly, more elaborate planing is bad because a) then scum knows exactly who is at the bottom, and b) they can exploit the resctions to make our lifts fail.

And no-one wiggle the mouse. Any objections?

I still completely object to no one wiggling mouse.  I think Red getting blocked is terrible for town, while Blue getting blocked is only marginally bad. 

Also for your plan to work 3 players must have both a lift and a "B" action, and given a random 3 players there's only like a 50% chance that they all have those 2 cards.  And you'd like them to have another card reducing probability even further.
Additionally, third player should obviously do Lift-B-A (or better would be Lift-B-B).  Since those central actions are going to be taken, and if central has 1 energy left players 1 and 2 are completely wasting their turns. 
Worth noting that since it's a coin-flip whether this works if they're town...and any of them can be scum, and no way is scum refilling our energy.  So, it would be good for some other players to consider refilling at least central energy, and maybe Red.

I feel like you're over-stating the ability we have to get around.  Moving 1 zone takes 1 phase.  Getting from Red to Blue takes 2 phases of the game.  Getting from lower red to upper white also takes 2 phases.
Now obviously we shouldn't all be going up the lifts to get powers, but some people should.  If red and blue are not blocked, someone can lift-power-lift, and be able to make a choice regarding risking nk again next turn.  If one of them is blocked, that choice is removed completely...for no reason because we could've just wiggled the mouse this turn.  So, as of this moment, I'm still planning on wiggling the mouse.
Additionally, if I'm one of the first 3 players, just pretend I'm not on the list, and I will not get in the way of the above proposed lift-actions (since wiggling the mouse necessarily prevents me from doing it).

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

To do this weak-visitoring requires people to be able to do it.  And as of night 2 there's no way to guarantee that anyone can do it...I'd guess it is out of reach for about 1/4 of town, and only available phase-3 for about 2/3 of town, so good luck getting even 2 people to actually use weak visitor (besides requiring the cards to do so, which if someone spent their only lift or only A this turn, there's a decent chance (~30%) they have no Lift or A next turn).

[faust]

This is unnecessary. If everyone plays at least one lift movement, then the chance that there is a lift that's not used at all is extremely low. And this is the only scenario that your plan is preventing.

?

The advantage of the plan over everyone does what they want is that a) more people will reach the bottom half and b) we avoid too many people using refresh. It's not about using every lift at least once.

I don't see how it will make more people reach the bottom half. I very much doubt that too many people use refresh because most people won't manage to even reach the lower deck.

I think mass-Weak Visitoring is a a plan that might very well end in desaster.

yeah... but no-one was suggesting mass WW. I think we can do nice things with forcing the second and third scummiest players to both the scummiest person and figuring out a way to make lying hard. We can check for everything, up/down, color, action, and even target (with tracker), we just have to figure out how many people we make do what and how we check exactly to make lying hard.

Well I can always say "sorry, I don't have the cards for that". Besides it's hard enough to agree on a "scummiest person", let alone second and third. I also think you are underestimating severely how difficult it is to coordinate once we are in different parts of the ship.

[silverspawn]

Think about WTM for a minute. It either blocks UR (upper red) or UB.

If it blocks UB it means cop results are guaranteed sane.
If it blocks UR it means we can't access cop results.

If WTM is used twice and we have full access on two days, it means a player might go there twice and get an uncertain cop result both times, giving us 2 uncertain cop results. If WTM is not used it means the equivalent play is to get one certain cop result plus the next best action available. So two uncertain cop results are supposed to be more valuable than 1 certain result plus another action? No, come on. Even if you don't believe in anything useful coming out of WW, this is still not worth it.

The bottleneck for what we can do in the ship is turns and cards. Limiting number of rooms, a resource which is not the bottleneck, in exchange for better rooms, is a good thing.