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Author Topic: Most Vetoed Card?  (Read 14862 times)

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PSUmvp

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Most Vetoed Card?
« on: February 09, 2012, 03:11:23 pm »
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I'm assuming the stats can be run fairly easily to answer this one definitively, but what is the card that you (1) most often see vetoed and (2) veto yourself?

(1) Very rarely do I see a veto game come up with Ambassador that it does not get vetoed.  Personally I love the Ambassador games, especially with +action, Throne Room and Kings Court. 

(2) I almost always veto University, I just find it to be boring.  University games tend to focus on who can get a good shuffle to get two quick universities and then load up on Laboratories or whatever the strong $5 is.  I am sure not many people will agree with me on this one, but I don't see any ingenuity with university.  Though depending on recent games and having played a card too much I can also lean towards very dominant (and non-combo cards): Minion and  Fool's Gold come to mind.  I also do not like the games that end up in a race for $2 and $3 cards, so I will always take out the Vineyards, Ironworks/workshop combos.

We have all seen the threads related to favorite or least favorite card.  But I think the veto mode on isotropic goes beyond favorite/least favorite, it is so much more about strategy.  I understand that there will definitely be games that you veto a card strictly based on the others available.  But without any obvious choices, which cards are most often nixed from the game before it starts?
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2012, 03:15:46 pm »
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jsh357

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2012, 03:20:22 pm »
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I only veto Pirate Ship in multiplayer games and hit random every other time.  Most commonly I see people veto Cursing attacks, Saboteur, and Possession. 
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popsofctown

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2012, 04:06:41 pm »
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I still don't get why people hate possession so much.  Probably psychological, sigh.  "You're using my cards!"

People wouldn't veto functionally 9$ card that said "+1 Buy.  Get 2-10$ at random"


Anyways, I always veto Treasure Map.  I'm of the opinion that it's the single card in the game with the most variant payouts.

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jsh357

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2012, 04:10:54 pm »
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Possession is just one of those cards that always seems like it never works for you and always works for your opponent.  Or maybe I'm just horrible with it.  I still don't mind playing with it, though.
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Dubdubdubdub

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2012, 04:28:35 pm »
+1

I still don't get why people hate possession so much.  Probably psychological, sigh.  "You're using my cards!"

People wouldn't veto functionally 9$ card that said "+1 Buy.  Get 2-10$ at random"


Anyways, I always veto Treasure Map.  I'm of the opinion that it's the single card in the game with the most variant payouts.

I'm guessing you'd veto that $9 card yourself, seeing uou don't like variant payouts..
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popsofctown

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2012, 04:38:50 pm »
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Yes, and that's why I am understanding of some people who think Possession is variant and want it vetoed.  I still think there must be something else going on, though, because Swindler and Tournament are much more variant.

But Treasure map just blows everything else out of the water.  When both players go for the strategy and one of them gets it a reshuffle early when they were both spamming cellars or what have you, it seems really silly.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2012, 05:01:47 pm »
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I still don't get why people hate possession so much.  Probably psychological, sigh.  "You're using my cards!"

People wouldn't veto functionally 9$ card that said "+1 Buy.  Get 2-10$ at random"
I would. After cards that create unique cards (tournament and black market), I tend to just veto anything that has a particularly inconvenient cost ($6 or more, $3+P or more...), because you can get situations where a slight difference in luck turns into a big difference. After that I go for cards with really swingy effects (swindler, treasure map, sab...) and finally just the most powerful card.
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popsofctown

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2012, 05:07:54 pm »
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Yes, but Alchemist and Familiar's impact on early tempo dwarfs Possessions awkward potion cost, so why is Possession the most vetoed card?
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olneyce

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2012, 05:11:13 pm »
+3

Possession is irritating because it utterly changes the nature of the game.  It becomes a negative to construct a strong deck.  Instead, your best bet is to construct a deck that can't buy anything good, but can play multiple Possessions.

Obviously, most Possession games don't actually go that direction because it's often a trap that takes too long to be worth it.  But the risk is why I don't like it.   It's either going to significantly warp the game, or it's going to have virtually no meaningful effect, with not a whole lot of space in between. 

Possession isn't 'swingy' in the way that Swindler is, sure.  There are good ways to counter it, or magnify its usefulness and it takes skill and good tactical sense to sort that out.  But that doesn't make it less annoying; it's just a slightly different type of annoying.
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petrie911

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2012, 05:13:21 pm »
+1

Possession rewards you for building a poor deck and punishes you for building a good one.  I would guess that's part of where the hate comes from.

I nearly always veto random or veto dominant cards that I've already played with a lot and feel like doing something else.  CR stats indicate I should veto Ambassador more, as it has my lowest win rate given available.

I'd like to see a vetoes page on CR, though I don't know how much work that would be to make.
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olneyce

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2012, 05:14:12 pm »
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Yes, but Alchemist and Familiar's impact on early tempo dwarfs Possessions awkward potion cost, so why is Possession the most vetoed card?
I always veto Familiar.  It's the only card that I will veto 100% of the time.  Others I'll at least consider if the board is likely to make them play in a more interesting way than normal.  Like, I veto Minion a lot because it will get in the way of a more interesting strategy.  But I don't particularly hate Minion games.

Alchemist isn't really a problem.  It's not nearly as game-breaking as Familiar if one person gets it and the other doesn't. 
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2012, 05:15:25 pm »
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The rare games where Possession actually can be played regularly >1.0 times per turn, all normal game logic goes out the window. You have to get yourself down to 0 treasure, and fast. I've even Chapeled Bazaars in a Possession game.
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popsofctown

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2012, 05:24:43 pm »
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Possession is irritating because it utterly changes the nature of the game.  It becomes a negative to construct a strong deck.  Instead, your best bet is to construct a deck that can't buy anything good, but can play multiple Possessions.

Obviously, most Possession games don't actually go that direction because it's often a trap that takes too long to be worth it.  But the risk is why I don't like it.   It's either going to significantly warp the game, or it's going to have virtually no meaningful effect, with not a whole lot of space in between. 

Possession isn't 'swingy' in the way that Swindler is, sure.  There are good ways to counter it, or magnify its usefulness and it takes skill and good tactical sense to sort that out.  But that doesn't make it less annoying; it's just a slightly different type of annoying.

Most boards have a card that can improve your deck without improving the ghosted deck.  Explorer, IGG, any attack, VP chip family, Trading Post, Mine, Watchtower, Royal Seal ish.    I understand some hate when Possession forces both players to buy Duchies, but I don't quite get why the card is vetoed right on sight.  When something on the board just makes you buy extra responses, that doesn't seem any more game warping than Young Witch to me.  Yet Possession is always vetoed no matter what, and is on its own responsible for at least 10% of people who set automatch to veto mode.  (lies, damn lies and statistics)
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Tahtweasel

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2012, 05:28:12 pm »
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I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here, but my first target for veto is actually Secret Chamber if there are attacks on the board.
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jsh357

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2012, 05:31:44 pm »
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I'm surprised this hasn't been discussed here, but my first target for veto is actually Secret Chamber if there are attacks on the board.

In group games, yeah, it's definitely one I'd consider.  Even worse with, say, Torturer which its all the opponents in a specific order.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2012, 05:32:16 pm »
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When I'm playing to win, I'll take a minute to devise... Plan A, Plan B, Plan A/B variants.  Lets say I'm more confident in Plan A, I will veto the card that helps Plan B much more than Plan A.  That way it forces my opponent to play a mirror match with me in something I'm confident, or have the opponent face me using (what I think to be) an inferior plan. 

When I'm playing to learn, I leave all the strongest, highest variable, most used cards in there.  You can probably better learn how cards interact by leaving all these strong cards together and watching how it all unfolds first hand.  I find it much more interesting, even if its the most lopsided loss ever. 
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chwhite

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2012, 05:35:13 pm »
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Ill-Gotten Gains is pretty much the only automatic veto for me these days, since it so often forces what I consider to be an uninteresting and unenjoyable game. 

JoaT, Envoy, Fool's Gold and Duke are my runners-up, and after that would be the super-swingy attacks Swindler and Familiar; though sometimes I'll let them through.  After IGG, it really depends on what else is out there.

There's way less luck to Tournament games than most people realize; I never veto it.  Possession is another frequent target I prefer to let through most of the time, since usually it's just a trap card.
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tlloyd

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2012, 06:26:17 pm »
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I don't like Possession for the same reason I don't like Smugglers. But hands down my most-likely veto is Young Witch. In my experience it invariably hits every time for one player and almost never for the other (usually me).
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PerdHapley

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2012, 09:08:33 pm »
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My personal top 5 veto list goes Ambassador, Minion, Tournament, Alchemist and Chapel, in that order. These are the cards I'll veto out of pure dislike whether I'm first player or not, and no matter what the rest of the board is. Basically, the cards that not only create a pretty boring, usually unavoidable strategy but depend heavily on shuffle luck or, in Minion's case, a race to rush a single pile. It is not as if these cards don't require skill to use (Ambassador and Tournament, certainly, aren't just "shut off your brain and go through the motions" cards in the same way the other three are), but they both can be an absolute slog to play. Ambassador is hands down my number one, mostly due to a string of games in which I opened double Amb and drew the dreaded Amb/Amb/C/C/C hand on turn 5.

Barring that, it's pretty mood dependent for me. Sometimes I'll shut out obvious combos or power cards if I don't feel up for that particular kind of game (stuff like Grand Market, Ghost Ship, Duke, Market/Highway, Ironworks/Gardens, University/Watchtower, Governor/Goons, Nomad Camp/Fool's Gold, Hamlet/Peddler), or, when I'm second player, cards that heavily favor first player advantage (Militia, Cutpurse, Goons, Village/Torturer engines, IGG).

..And sometimes I just say whatever and hit random. Ironically, two of the cards I see vetoed most often are cards I almost never do: Possession and Tunnel. The latter really bums me out sometimes.
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ratxt1

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2012, 10:06:08 pm »
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Ambassador and Tournament, certainly, aren't just "shut off your brain and go through the motions" cards in the same way the other three are

I don't see how chapel and alchemist are shut your brain and go through the motions type cards. Chapel yes is pretty straight forward in how you buy and play it, but most of the time it greatly increases the strategy space because of the amount of decks that now become viable.

Alchemist on the other hand is a a completly absurd veto for the reasons you are giving to veto it. First it is rarely dominant and most of the time a major trap card. Two the only time you want to go for alchemist is with some decent support. And three with that support avalible alchemist games are almost never just "go through the motions" games.

The "shut your brain off and go through the motions" cards are stuff like IGG and JoaT
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popsofctown

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2012, 10:39:52 pm »
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I veto alchemist because it's a trap card.

That I usually fall into :(
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Anon79

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2012, 11:21:25 pm »
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In the past month or so, the one time I recall seeing Chapel survive my opponent's veto is when he left it as a trap (Thief) which I duly fell into.

If there's only one Village on the board, I like to veto it. King's Court, Laboratory & Wharf are also high on my veto list, as I know I usually play sub-optimally when these are on the board. And in the meta-environment, most of my opponents are vetoing the swingy stuff anyway, so I don't need to.
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Wingnut

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2012, 12:16:29 am »
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Veto wise I start with Scrying Pool. Just too long of a game for not a lot of turns most times.

After that it's Pirate Ship. Only because my first game with Pirate Ship was an IRL 4-player game and I was the 4th player. Everybody else opened Pirate Ship and played it first turn after the reshuffle. Everyone hit one of my coins including a my Silver I had opened with. I refuse to play with the card if possible since then.

From there, I think strategically. If in 2nd position, Tournament is near automatic veto. Other than that, I like to try and set traps (such as vetoing the only +buy when Highway is in play with no other enabler).

That said, I always leave cursers unless there are more than two of them. I like curse games and it annoys me when people just auto-veto them.
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ehunt

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Re: Most Vetoed Card?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2012, 02:35:01 am »
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I veto hamlet and mining village a lot because those cards are too strong not to buy but I hate all the clicking.
Also, second player must veto grand market and wharf.
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