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dougz

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veto mode stats
« on: September 06, 2011, 02:20:15 pm »
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A comment in the "optimizing your level" thread prompted me to look at logs from the first couple days of veto mode:

6353 games with veto
  422 Saboteur                   96 Navigator                  43 Apprentice
  420 Possession                 92 Stash                      42 Venture
  411 Sea Hag                    90 Horn of Plenty             42 Remodel
  384 Young Witch                85 Secret Chamber             42 Quarry
  364 Witch                      84 Outpost                    42 Island
  357 Mountebank                 82 Forge                      41 Library
  324 Pirate Ship                76 RANDOM                     40 Moneylender
  302 Familiar                   76 Adventurer                 39 Royal Seal
  301 Swindler                   75 Coppersmith                38 Woodcutter
  298 Torturer                   73 Envoy                      37 Conspirator
  295 Tournament                 71 Ironworks                  36 Council Room
  284 Ghost Ship                 71 Expand                     35 Salvager
  277 Goons                      71 Baron                      35 Lighthouse
  268 Treasure Map               68 Spy                        35 Laboratory
  264 Minion                     68 Bishop                     34 Pearl Diver
  247 Militia                    67 Moat                       33 Trading Post
  242 Thief                      66 Hoard                      33 Harem
  205 Ambassador                 64 Bank                       33 Great Hall
  190 Smugglers                  63 Harvest                    32 Warehouse
  188 Black Market               62 Horse Traders              32 Monument
  183 Alchemist                  61 Explorer                   29 Walled Village
  168 Gardens                    60 Remake                     28 Merchant Ship
  159 Embargo                    59 Wishing Well               27 Wharf
  152 Jester                     59 Loan                       26 Haven
  148 Scrying Pool               58 City                       25 Hamlet
  146 Chapel                     57 Lookout                    25 Cellar
  140 King's Court               56 Trade Route                24 Mine
  137 Golem                      56 Grand Market               24 Caravan
  137 Duke                       54 Throne Room                22 Courtyard
  132 Masquerade                 54 Feast                      21 Steward
  131 University                 54 Bridge                     21 Pawn
  128 Cutpurse                   53 Peddler                    20 Upgrade
  123 Bureaucrat                 52 Nobles                     20 Menagerie
  117 Chancellor                 49 Scout                      20 Fishing Village
  112 Fortune Teller             49 Hunting Party              19 Shanty Town
  110 Rabble                     48 Workshop                   18 Farming Village
  108 Apothecary                 48 Vault                      17 Worker's Village
  106 Transmute                  48 Tribute                    17 Mining Village
  105 Tactician                  47 Native Village             15 Smithy
  104 Philosopher's Stone        47 Mint                       14 Village
  103 Vineyard                   47 Herbalist                  14 Festival
  102 Counting House             46 Talisman                   11 Bazaar
  100 Contraband                 45 Treasury                    9 Market
   97 Fairgrounds                43 Watchtower

No real surprises here: people dislike attacks and like villages.
Note that "RANDOM" is the option (added this morning) to have it
randomly select a card to veto for you, for people who don't care.
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guided

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2011, 02:27:58 pm »
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Thanks for the stats, and thanks for the cool new mode even if it doesn't really suit my personal preferences. I am sure those who want to play rated games but don't have fun playing with certain cards will greatly appreciate it.
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chwhite

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2011, 02:47:40 pm »
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I like the "Random" option.  I'll probably use it a bunch.
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HiveMindEmulator

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2011, 03:03:38 pm »
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Interesting results. I think this is a really interesting dominion variant, but I doubt it will have the effect of just allowing people to play auto-match with !possession, !saboteur or something. Having 20 cards, vetoing and choosing a random 10 of the remaining ones would mimic that much better. When you see 12 cards, and know basically exactly how the kingdom is going to turn out, you can veto much more strategically, and it ends up being part of the game rather that just a pre-game deck selection modification.

I see 4 classes of cards getting vetoed (assuming strategic vetoing):
1. If you think you're better than your opponent, you veto cards that increase variance like tournament, treasure map, and possession.
2. If you see a strategy you like but that would be stopped by a particular kind of attack, you veto the attack.
3. If you are not confident in your ability to compete in an major engine-building game and there is only 1 village or 1 +buy card, you just veto that single card and force a low-action count "big money" game.
4. If you're not good at colony games, veto a prosperity card.

The one I'm worried about is 3. Out of 12 cards, a single village or +buy card can be a pretty common occurrence, so it may be possible for people to force a lot of less interesting games. However, from the results, it appears that is not happening so far. So we'll see :)
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guided

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2011, 03:16:51 pm »
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.

I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.
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jonts26

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2011, 04:24:01 pm »
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I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.


I actually don't think I would classify veto mode as a variant, strictly speaking. I would define variant as something other than what's given in the official rules. The rules state you can choose 10 kingdom cards in whatever manner is agreed upon. Veto mode certainly falls within that category.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2011, 04:29:44 pm »
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.

I'll nevertheless disagree with you on tournament. I do think that it increases variance - there are a lot of situations where there's not a lot going on, and it's a race to the followers. There's some skill in that, but not a ton. Now, this doesn't come up nearly as often as most people make out, but it strikes me as higher variance than the average card. And just because it's your best card doesn't mean it's not high variance.
Possession I'm with you on. In fact I think it's much lower variance than your average card.

Jimmmmm

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2011, 10:30:56 pm »
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Maybe this is sub-optimal play, but I've been tending to veto a card that I don't think will be bought. I actually love playing with most of the powerful, controversial cards.
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rspeer

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2011, 05:47:19 pm »
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I actually don't think I would classify veto mode as a variant, strictly speaking. I would define variant as something other than what's given in the official rules. The rules state you can choose 10 kingdom cards in whatever manner is agreed upon. Veto mode certainly falls within that category.

I can see how it's a variant. The rules don't imply that you should try to select Kingdom cards you're likely to win with, as part of the game. But when the vetoing is put into the structure of the game like this, I think it's totally legitimate to strategically choose which card to veto.

I've enjoyed veto mode so far. My only problem with it is that it basically takes one of the most interesting cards -- Possession -- out of the game, because my opponent will always veto it when it appears.
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popsofctown

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2011, 04:52:26 am »
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I veto whatever card I'm unlikely to use effectively.

You can view stats based on when a card is available? how can I view my best card?  I bet it's vineyard.
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rspeer

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2011, 05:19:46 am »
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Seeing stats on how you play with certain cards available is a feature bolted onto the Popular Buys page (yes, that's a terrible interface, sorry).

http://councilroom.com/popular_buys?player=popsofctown would list yours, on the right-hand side... but apparently you've never played under that username.
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popsofctown

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2011, 05:29:09 am »
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Then I was right!  Vineyard is tied for my best card!

I play under the name pops.

My effect with bureacrat is like -0.2 and my effect without is like -3.  Is the correct interpretation that I'm not picking up on games where bureacrat is worth buying? 
« Last Edit: September 14, 2011, 05:44:29 am by popsofctown »
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2011, 06:12:29 am »
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I play under the name pops.

Maybe you should update the "Isotropic username" field of your profile then ;)
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popsofctown

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2011, 06:30:58 am »
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The only card i will veto for variance-hate is treasure map.  I feel it's the silliest card in the game
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cheeseonearth

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2011, 05:41:27 pm »
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I veto cards that are most likely to cause the opponent to go into analysis paralysis and take forever -- Pawn!! ARGH!!!
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ftl

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2011, 07:10:39 pm »
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I'm very tempted to Veto library if there's cellar, warehouse, or hamlet on the board. Cycling with those and library are valid strategies, but they take so-friggin-LONG in terms of pure number of clicks required to go through an average turn.
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Fangz

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2011, 07:20:17 pm »
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I tend to just veto whatever strategy was dominant in the last game I just played.

And possession. UGH possession.
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ChaosRed

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2011, 08:14:07 pm »
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As a newb, I like vetoing, for one thing, it really helps me come to understand which cards work and do not work together. I've only played a few veto games, but I like them.

For the record, I tend to veto cards that reward card hoarding, and tend to want to keep any card that lets me trash. I like dense decks and really dislike garden-chases and the like. I like it when I can card count.
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danshep

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #18 on: September 15, 2011, 12:43:44 am »
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Not sure if other's agree, but I'd prefer if veto mode used a simultaneous reveal, so that you didn't know what the opponent had veto'd until you'd veto'd (in cases of double-veto on the same card, the other veto should be random).
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Anon79

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #19 on: September 30, 2011, 10:20:17 am »
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I can't remember the last time I played a CHAPEL game on veto mode. I can understand people vetoing attacks, but Chapel? Then again, I'm probably one of the very few who are actively vetoing Laboratory and villages...
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Brando Commando

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #20 on: September 30, 2011, 10:50:36 am »
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I can't remember the last time I played a CHAPEL game on veto mode. I can understand people vetoing attacks, but Chapel? Then again, I'm probably one of the very few who are actively vetoing Laboratory and villages...

I'm that guy vetoing Chapel. I veto cards that (almost) always get bought: Chapel, Caravan, Mountebank, etc. The more obvious buys are also to my mind the more boring buys, which is why I like messy boards without clear dominant strategies...

...and which is why I usually am able to talk myself out of vetoing Possession despite how frustrating it can be to be Possessed.
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Karrow

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #21 on: September 30, 2011, 11:27:20 am »
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It would be nice to see an update on the stats.

I think i see more people using random lately.  My veto order is Scrying Pool, any card I've seen in the last 3+ games in a row (even if I'm winning using it), then random. 

Scrying pool is one that just takes sooooo long since it seems a good engine with them takes a lot of them.  It's the spy effect that makes it so slow.  Individually, many cards take more time on there own.  But when someone's playing 5 scrying pools every turn, usually just to buy another scrying pool/spy/pawn/pearl diver/wishing well... Then I get tired of it.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2011, 11:36:30 am »
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I strenuously object to the claim that Tournament increases variance - again, I'll point to it being my single highest "win rate given available". Possession is another high-skill card that I nonetheless see people complain about a lot. "Forces you outside your comfort zone" is not the same as "turns the game into a coin flip", unless both players insist on remaining inside their comfort zone rather than adapting their play to the unique requirements of the board.

I will agree that veto strategy is an interesting thing to think about. "Variant" is the right word here.

Since this topic comes up so often - i decided to check:

discounting prizes, your tournament is actually your #5... following (Harvest, Plenty Horny, Courtyard and Remake).  The thing in common there?  Most of them are cornucopia cards that you've played with ~30-40 times (vs. 150+ for your others)  My guess is that as a smart fellow - you probably picked up the use of cornucopia faster than your average player, and as a result have a disproportionate win rate with them on the board - and that as everyone else catches up and you play more games - they will regress closer to your mean of overall win rate - which is around 1.35 +/- 0.03.  (your tournament is 1.51 +/- 0.29 - as of 9/30/2011)

I checked - and I have a similar skew at the top of my rankings, although for me its Hunting Party and Horse Traders.

Now I don't disagree that you clearly now how to play tournament better - its my WORST win % given avail - i win (but lower % than normal) when I buy it, and i lose HORRIBLY when I don't.

Care to share your magic tips? (Perhaps a topic for another post)

On the subject of vetoing, I'm finding myself torn on the subject.  On one hand - i enjoy the ability to have some control of the board - from the 2p position I can zap things that are likely to hose me over heavier (torturer, cutpurse, militia) - so I can protect my precious rating... on the other hand, it almost says: "you don't get to play with possession any more".  Even though I dislike alchemy, it's part of the dominion landscape, and I want to make sure that I at least pretend like I can play with all of the cards. (In the case of tournament - clearly I can't)   

I have previously banned veto mode when auto matching, but I'm thinking about turning it on... I hate you militia!
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guided

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2011, 12:25:07 pm »
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The fact that it's a Cornucopia card and Cornucopia is new had occurred to me, don't worry, but if it were true that Tournament is always a luck-intensive crapshoot it should be at the bottom of the stack in win rate for a good player.

My stats have changed between that post quite a while ago and when you looked them up, of course. I mean, you said "actually..." in response to something that was completely true when I said it :P
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: veto mode stats
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2011, 04:57:48 am »
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The fact that it's a Cornucopia card and Cornucopia is new had occurred to me, don't worry, but if it were true that Tournament is always a luck-intensive crapshoot it should be at the bottom of the stack in win rate for a good player.

Maybe you're not a good player...





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jk
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