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[Robz888]

I'm leaning town on Eevee. My scum are threee of TWM, schadd, PPS, Andrew.

[schadd]

mine are in twm, eevee, pps, android. don't think pps v android is svs though, and i have moreish thoughts l8r

[The_Wine_Merchant]

mine are in twm, eevee, pps, android. don't think pps v android is svs though, and i have moreish thoughts l8r

words?

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

[schadd]

ww i'm just going to say is town, cool, done. i was at about 95% town on him before D3, just from having read his last uh 4 games (M90, M95, RMM40, ZM23). his approach to playing scum, in M90 & RMM40, was just to come up with a bunch of different townslippy/organic things and throw shade at people/converse without committing to anyone, whereas when he's town he is more testy, invested, and interested in lynching people. i think that he's been much more of the latter in this game, and i see no reason to believe he would specifically switch things up (considering he was super townread in M90, townread by all means except game state in RMM40, and got lynched D2 in M95). and also just by gamestate i would say he has an additional (er, multiplicative i guess) 95% chance of being town here (since he's confirmable by any scum flip other than rolecop and he has sown worry about switch which has no scum benefit really)

[schadd]

robz i'm also going to say is just town, for reasons i said earlier, with more elaboration later (taking a test l0l)

[pingpongsam]

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

Yeah, let's do that, it stalled for a reason, people.

Vote: Andrew

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'll do a more complete read later, but I'm leaning to vote Andrew or TWM.

[Witherweaver]

The Wine Merchant seemed pretty townie on Day 2.  But, it's the first time I played with him, and he could be good at looking like he's thinking like town.

I'm not completely writing him off as town, but he'd be bottom of my lynch list.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

Yeah, let's do that, it stalled for a reason, people.

Vote: Andrew

Right, let's do exactly what scum wants everyone to do. Obviously they didn't choose to kill mcmc at random. They did it so everyone could point to me afterwards and easily mislynch me, just like yesterday. If I was scum why the hell would I want to kill mcmc last night? Especially after all the scum reads mcmc was getting during twilight, I think an mcmc lynch today was probable.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

Yeah, let's do that, it stalled for a reason, people.

Vote: Andrew

Right, let's do exactly what scum wants everyone to do. Obviously they didn't choose to kill mcmc at random. They did it so everyone could point to me afterwards and easily mislynch me, just like yesterday. If I was scum why the hell would I want to kill mcmc last night? Especially after all the scum reads mcmc was getting during twilight, I think an mcmc lynch today was probable.

I feel like mcmc would have pushed for your lynch if he were left alive. So I don't know if I buy this logic. I really don't think mcmc would have been mislynched today. I wouldnt' have gone for it and I think a majority of others would have felt the same. But I guess that is all speculation. More important is that the reasons you were scummy yesterday still exist.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

The Wine Merchant seemed pretty townie on Day 2.  But, it's the first time I played with him, and he could be good at looking like he's thinking like town.

I'm not completely writing him off as town, but he'd be bottom of my lynch list.

More wine for you!

[AndrewisFTTW]

By the way, mcmc's wagon stalled D1. It doesn't mean anything in terms of alignment.

I mean it seems like the only reason pps wants to lynch me today is because my wagon failed yesterday and he's bitter about it. mcmc was the only one to even have a case on me for anything. WW even admitted his scum read on me is more a gut read than anything. With everything that has happened why do you guys insist on just following your gut? At this stage in the game I'm not going to just throw my vote on someone just because I have this feeling that they're scum, I'm going to go back and read and provide evidence for what I think is scummy. With pps specifically it feels like a copout for not doing any work or providing facts. He just says my wagon stalled and places a vote. Done. That is scummy.

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

Yeah, let's do that, it stalled for a reason, people.

Vote: Andrew

Right, let's do exactly what scum wants everyone to do. Obviously they didn't choose to kill mcmc at random. They did it so everyone could point to me afterwards and easily mislynch me, just like yesterday. If I was scum why the hell would I want to kill mcmc last night? Especially after all the scum reads mcmc was getting during twilight, I think an mcmc lynch today was probable.

I feel like mcmc would have pushed for your lynch if he were left alive. So I don't know if I buy this logic. I really don't think mcmc would have been mislynched today. I wouldnt' have gone for it and I think a majority of others would have felt the same. But I guess that is all speculation. More important is that the reasons you were scummy yesterday still exist.

So what are the reasons I was scummy yesterday?

[Witherweaver]

I was more anti-Andrew than McMc, and probably more of a mislynch target after yesterday.  So I don't think that argument flies.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was more anti-Andrew than McMc, and probably more of a mislynch target after yesterday.  So I don't think that argument flies.

I was specifically referring to this post:

So my feelings on Andrew are basically these things.  Well the first I can't explain well.  It may just be his posting style.  Early on it was, like, a lot of comments without actually making much contribution to the game.  Somewhat opportunistically puts Joseph at L-1.  I remember Andrew as being more argumentative.  He has appealed to that argumentative meta regarding him defending his wagon, but it really didn't feel like he was defending that hard.  Some discussion with McMc and someone else I think, but it never really escalated.

Worth mentioning that Andrew could just not want to get in those big arguments like with Ash and Yuma and so made a choice to play differently.

Another thing I didn't like is that he never really finds me suspicious for voting him and pushing his lynch.  That's a big of a red flag for me (the anti-OMGUS thing).  Voting me when my wagon started to grow, without much of a read on me one way or the other as his wagon grew.

Other things are just, it's what I feel, like gut.

I've admittedly become more unsure about things.

To which I responded:

So my feelings on Andrew are basically these things.  Well the first I can't explain well.  It may just be his posting style.  Early on it was, like, a lot of comments without actually making much contribution to the game.  Somewhat opportunistically puts Joseph at L-1.  I remember Andrew as being more argumentative.  He has appealed to that argumentative meta regarding him defending his wagon, but it really didn't feel like he was defending that hard.  Some discussion with McMc and someone else I think, but it never really escalated.

Worth mentioning that Andrew could just not want to get in those big arguments like with Ash and Yuma and so made a choice to play differently.

Yes. I'm making a conscious effort not to take it to that level, that was never pleasant. I recently reread a game where we had a big fight and I offended you, which I forgot about. Not trying to replicate that.

Another thing I didn't like is that he never really finds me suspicious for voting him and pushing his lynch.  That's a big of a red flag for me (the anti-OMGUS thing).  Voting me when my wagon started to grow, without much of a read on me one way or the other as his wagon grew.

Other things are just, it's what I feel, like gut.

I've admittedly become more unsure about things.

I don't find everyone that suspects me to be scum. I did suspect you slightly, mostly because of your posting style which I hadn't seen from you before, but mainly I voted you because 1) you were an alternative to my wagon and 2) I was hoping to help provoke you to post more meaningful content, which I think you've done since then. I'm not taking credit for it but I know you're a valuable asset to town and I want you to be scumhunting instead of sarcastically egging people on and whatnot.

Besides your comment about me not paying your vote much attention and me putting Joseph to L-1, you said you suspect me for meta reasons and gut. I'm just arguing that we should be past gut reads, I don't think they count for much right now.

Also, it's been 2 1/2 years but I remember in pretty much every game I've played I've been heavily suspected. I don't know if my playstyle rubs people the wrong way or people read my defensiveness as scummy but it's been a pattern. Maybe it's because I would get upset and confrontational which I'm trying to avoid in all future games.

[Witherweaver]

Well, I'd say gut is this most important thing in playing these games.

[AndrewisFTTW]

A big part of mcmc's case on me was when I put Joseph to L-1. He said it just felt like I jumped onto his wagon out of nowhere. But he also said pps looked scummy for quickhammering, which I agree with and I said way back it looks to me like pps is using the "too scummy to be scum" move and will thus be granted towncred which he will use to ride out the rest of the game relatively unsuspected. And it looks like it's worked.

Well, I'd say gut is this most important thing in playing these games.

I agree, especially in the first couple days. But I think now it's being used as an excuse, especially by scum, as to why someone isn't doing work and providing evidence to back up their reads.

[Robz888]

I'm really undecided on Andrew.

[Witherweaver]

I'm really undecided on Andrew.

We can lynch you instead!

[Robz888]

I'm really undecided on Andrew.

We can lynch you instead!

I know! I'm surprised you're not trying to!

[Witherweaver]

I'm really undecided on Andrew.

We can lynch you instead!

I know! I'm surprised you're not trying to!

You are enjoying the special status of not-my-top-scum-read this game.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm really undecided on Andrew.

We can lynch you instead!

We could lynch pps instead.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

A big part of mcmc's case on me was when I put Joseph to L-1. He said it just felt like I jumped onto his wagon out of nowhere. But he also said pps looked scummy for quickhammering, which I agree with and I said way back it looks to me like pps is using the "too scummy to be scum" move and will thus be granted towncred which he will use to ride out the rest of the game relatively unsuspected. And it looks like it's worked.

I said previously that I only thought PPS's hammer could have been scum if his scum partners were already on wagon and felt that it would be beneficial to his team to get the vote down and hammer joseph before a mislynch opportunity dissipated and potentially moved to a mafia partner.

But, now looking at the way the wagons fall, the only way PPS could have been a hammering mafioso is if his partners were already onwagon as IDPTG is the UB and I am town.

Soooooo. I guess I need to actually take a look at that a bit more in depth and see if that meshes out.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

By the way, mcmc's wagon stalled D1. It doesn't mean anything in terms of alignment.

I mean it seems like the only reason pps wants to lynch me today is because my wagon failed yesterday and he's bitter about it. mcmc was the only one to even have a case on me for anything. WW even admitted his scum read on me is more a gut read than anything. With everything that has happened why do you guys insist on just following your gut? At this stage in the game I'm not going to just throw my vote on someone just because I have this feeling that they're scum, I'm going to go back and read and provide evidence for what I think is scummy. With pps specifically it feels like a copout for not doing any work or providing facts. He just says my wagon stalled and places a vote. Done. That is scummy.

I want to go back onto Andrew personally. Since we are all apparently saying where we are.

Yeah, let's do that, it stalled for a reason, people.

Vote: Andrew

Right, let's do exactly what scum wants everyone to do. Obviously they didn't choose to kill mcmc at random. They did it so everyone could point to me afterwards and easily mislynch me, just like yesterday. If I was scum why the hell would I want to kill mcmc last night? Especially after all the scum reads mcmc was getting during twilight, I think an mcmc lynch today was probable.

I feel like mcmc would have pushed for your lynch if he were left alive. So I don't know if I buy this logic. I really don't think mcmc would have been mislynched today. I wouldnt' have gone for it and I think a majority of others would have felt the same. But I guess that is all speculation. More important is that the reasons you were scummy yesterday still exist.

So what are the reasons I was scummy yesterday?

I stated these in the following posts: 647, 655, 829

[The_Wine_Merchant]

yeah, that pps theory doesn't fly at all. the only other two wagons around at that time were both confirmed townies: mcmc and dylan. The previous vote count to that had small wagons on eevee, another townie (IDPTG) and PPS himself. But those were all at 1 vote.

So yeah, that doesn't make sense. For PPS to be scum, both partners had to already be on the wagon. And he had to feel that he could take the pressure of doing a quick hammer on a townie with no immediate benefit to his team. So he could still have done it, but I don't see a reason for him to do it. I think scum generally needs to have reasons to do things.