Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Fool's Gold + Chapel  (Read 21671 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Fool's Gold + Chapel
« on: February 06, 2012, 07:01:10 pm »
0

It's a nice combination.  Sometimes you will end up with chapel + FG + 3 other cards.  You usually want to leave a copper and a FG behind so that you can buy another FG, instead of using chapel on all 3 of those other cards.

I believe that this strategy is faster than smithy/big money.
Logged

Anon79

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 264
  • Respect: +39
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2012, 11:20:59 pm »
0

By smithy/big money you mean smithy/FG right?
Logged

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2012, 12:02:14 am »
0

I haven't thought about comparing Smithy/FG versus Smithy/Big money.  I suspect that Smithy/big money is faster.

I think a viable fool's gold strategy needs some strong trashing... but maybe only Chapel will do. 
Another way may be to have trashing, with some type of +buy and some type of draw your entire deck engine.  But even then I feel that this card is going to live up to its name.
Logged

biopower

  • Young Witch
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 149
  • Respect: +4
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2012, 12:08:17 am »
0

I haven't thought about comparing Smithy/FG versus Smithy/Big money.  I suspect that Smithy/big money is faster.

I think a viable fool's gold strategy needs some strong trashing... but maybe only Chapel will do. 
Another way may be to have trashing, with some type of +buy and some type of draw your entire deck engine.  But even then I feel that this card is going to live up to its name.

iirc FG beats BM, so it wouldn't surprise me that Smithy/FG beats Smithy/BM.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2012, 01:17:12 am »
0

I think Chapel+FG is only good if your opponents ignore FGs. Otherwise the turns spent buying chapel and trashing everything don't allow you to get enough FGs.
Logged

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2012, 01:19:33 am »
0

Oh... it does.  Solitaire it and try it.  You need 3 FG to buy a province.  You need several in your deck.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 01:25:57 am by glennC »
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2012, 02:42:35 am »
0

Oh... it does.  Solitaire it and try it.  You need 3 FG to buy a province.  You need several in your deck.
If you're solitaire, your opponent clearly won't stop you from getting enough FGs (since you have no opponent).
If you're in 2-player, and use 1 turn to buy chapel and 1-2 to play chapel and trash everything, good luck getting more than 3-4 FGs in your deck.
Logged

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2012, 03:09:39 am »
0

So what is the other player doing?  Is he buying Fool's Gold with every buy once he sees you do FG/Chapel?
Is he embargo'ing the Fool's Gold?
Is he buying Woodcutter just to buy up FG before you do?

And what stops the FG player from buying golds if that ever happened?
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2012, 03:44:53 am »
0

So what is the other player doing?  Is he buying Fool's Gold with every buy once he sees you do FG/Chapel?
Is he embargo'ing the Fool's Gold?
Is he buying Woodcutter just to buy up FG before you do?

And what stops the FG player from buying golds if that ever happened?
Yup. Any of those things will beat you. You can buy golds too, but you're basically just running chapel=>BM, which simply isn't good. (Btw, woodcutter(or any +buy)/FG and terminal draw/FG are actually really strong strats that are worth going for a good percentage of the time in 2-player.)
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:52:15 am by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2012, 10:26:28 am »
0

I think the only thing possibly competitive really is chappeling down to where you're still buying an FG every turn. In which case steward is just going outclass chapel here, no?

greatexpectations

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1097
  • Respect: +1067
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2012, 10:45:42 am »
0

I think the only thing possibly competitive really is chappeling down to where you're still buying an FG every turn. In which case steward is just going outclass chapel here, no?

if you are just playing a trash-> BM strategy then yeah i would think steward should easily win out. 
Logged
momomoto: ...I looked at the tableau and went "Mountebank? That's for jerks."
rrenaud: Jerks win.

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2012, 10:57:48 am »
0

Yup. Any of those things will beat you. You can buy golds too, but you're basically just running chapel=>BM, which simply isn't good.

Yeah, but then what is your opponent running? If they've taken a sideline into FG just to block you, it doesn't seem likely that their deck is going to be well optimized for anything. Thus the fact that you're slow in an absolute sense doesn't matter much because your opponent is probably slowing down substantially in order to keep you from getting fast. This same phenomenon seems to happen a lot in Minion games. added: Embargo is obviously a completely different story, that's a good stopper.

While I'd agree Chapel isn't the best FG enabler, I do think that it's a pretty workable plan.
Logged

DG

  • Governor
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4074
  • Respect: +2624
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2012, 11:44:38 am »
+1

I ran a quick simulation and chapel/fool's gold seemed reasonable (even with imperfect trashing) and a combination like chapel/market/fools' gold looked good.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2012, 11:45:12 am »
0

I ran a quick simulation and chapel/fool's gold seemed reasonable (even with imperfect trashing) and a combination like chapel/market/fools' gold looked good.
Against what?

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2577
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4340
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2012, 12:52:06 pm »
+1

I haven't tried it in simulators, but Chapel/Adventurer/Fool's Gold is pretty cool: http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/07/game-20120207-095138-c76596fa.html 
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2012, 01:48:49 pm »
0

The problem with all these solitaire games is that you can get 7 FGs no problem. And you can also still pull that off iso, because you catch people unaware of how strong FG is in 2-player. But eventually it will get to the point where enough people catch on. If you end up playing FG vs FG, opening with pure trashing puts you at a disadvantage.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2012, 01:59:35 pm »
0

The problem with all these solitaire games is that you can get 7 FGs no problem. And you can also still pull that off iso

Maybe you can...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:07:08 pm by WanderingWinder »
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2012, 02:17:39 pm »
0

I meant that you can still sometimes pull it off depending on whether or not your opponent has played with FG enough to realize how good it is. But I think as time goes on, something like chapel+FG is going to be completely unviable except against new players.
Logged

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2012, 02:32:45 pm »
0

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/07/game-20120207-112946-e0994f12.html

Buying only 4 FGs, I played this solitaire game and bought 5 provinces by turn 12.

With an awful enabler like Oasis, it took 25 turns to buy out all 8 provinces.  (This would likely be less with adventurer, warehouse, embassy, caravan, laboratory, etc.)

It may also be optimal to buy a gold (or to turn a FG into a gold if opponent buys a province)... since 2 FG + a gold buys a province.  I didn't look into that.


I don't understand what you're saying HiveMindEmulator.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 02:35:49 pm by glennC »
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2012, 02:54:49 pm »
0

I'm not saying that you will never win with Chapel+FG. From simulation, it appears that despite being an underdog, Chapel+FG beats pure FG 40% of the time (while losing 56%). So sure you'll get those games where you get lucky and get 5 provinces in 12 turns. But it's unlikely that it's going to actually be the best strategy.

It's not a terrible strategy in the sense that it will always lose, but it's bad in the sense that you can almost always do something that gives you a better chance of winning.
Logged

Ferrouswheel

  • Baron
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 57
  • Respect: +25
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2012, 03:01:36 pm »
0

As someone else mentioned, what about Steward/Fool's Gold. That seems like it wouldn't lose as much as chapel would, and it could use the +2 card of steward late game.
Logged

glennC

  • Chancellor
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 22
  • Respect: +3
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2012, 03:05:03 pm »
0

Pure FG and smithy/FG seem slower than chapel/FG in solitaire?  Maybe I have done something wrong.
Logged

WanderingWinder

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5275
  • ...doesn't really matter to me
  • Respect: +4381
    • View Profile
    • WanderingWinder YouTube Page
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2012, 03:13:07 pm »
0

I'm not saying that you will never win with Chapel+FG. From simulation, it appears that despite being an underdog, Chapel+FG beats pure FG 40% of the time (while losing 56%). So sure you'll get those games where you get lucky and get 5 provinces in 12 turns. But it's unlikely that it's going to actually be the best strategy.

It's not a terrible strategy in the sense that it will always lose, but it's bad in the sense that you can almost always do something that gives you a better chance of winning.
Scripts, please?
I'm guessing it's mis-playing the chapel.

ackack

  • Explorer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 302
  • Respect: +19
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2012, 03:20:51 pm »
0

Yeah, I'd think that if you're going against another FG gaining strategy you absolutely want to be gaining FGs even at the cost of less than maximal Chapeling. If you end up doing worse than just raw FG+Big Money that way, I'd guess it's because you don't get enough speedup to make up for the missing Estate points. I'd be really surprised if that were true, but it also wouldn't be astonishing if you didn't get huge gains. added: This is presumably the crux of WW's argument that you expect Steward to be straight better in a realistic environment - even without the eventual benefits Steward offers, you're unlikely to be able to use your Chapel as anything more than a glorified Steward anyway.
Logged

HiveMindEmulator

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2222
  • Respect: +2118
    • View Profile
Re: Fool's Gold + Chapel
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2012, 03:28:30 pm »
0

Code: [Select]
<player name="Fool's Gold"
 author="HiveMindEmulator"
 description="Simplest FG bot I can think of.">
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

Code: [Select]
<player name="Chapel+FG"
 author="HiveMindEmulator"
 description="">
 <type name="Generated"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="BigMoney"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Chapel">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Chapel"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Fool$s_Gold"/>
   <buy name="Province"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

FG wins ~53-42 The chapel is misplayed, but I don't think that will put it over the top. Someone can try it with rspeer's simulator...

EDIT: Substitute steward for Chapel and it actually wins 55-40, so there is some hope. The steward looks like it's played pretty ok.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 03:40:05 pm by HiveMindEmulator »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.051 seconds with 21 queries.