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[Calamitas]

Well, I think it was pretty inevitable. The natural thing to do  as town would be just looking for the flavor name and reporting to have none (after finding none). It has nothing to do with asking/not-asking the mod. After reading reactions after the scumslip I'm going with vote: Joseph . The combination of him saying that the scumslip was just a weird trick and nothing substantial and him opening the day with townreading people for staying off wagon is just scummy.

Fixed

I think asking the mod is what any role would do; VT would ask to make sure whereas PR and scum would ask to avoid a slip. I think it's a weird question intended to get no response or a strange one.

Why? The easy answer would be just "I don't have a flavor name".

If you recognize it as a trick. If you take it to mean that everyone else has flavor names and you don't know yours, wouldn't you check first to avoid giving away information?

In that situation I wouldn't probably.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

[Calamitas]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

Check

[Calamitas]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

Check

Not checking with the mod, obviously checking the qt.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

Check

Not checking with the mod, obviously checking the qt.

Fair enough. It was a bad assumption I guess.

[Calamitas]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

Check

Not checking with the mod, obviously checking the qt.

I mean, the risk of seeming like scum outweighs the benefit in that regard.

Fair enough. It was a bad assumption I guess.

[Calamitas]

You wouldn't check or you wouldn't recognize it?

Check

Not checking with the mod, obviously checking the qt.

Fair enough. It was a bad assumption I guess.

*Fixed
I mean, the risk of seeming like scum outweighs the benefit in that regard.

[SpaceAnemone]

Vote Count 2.1

LaLight (1): Joseph
Calamitas (2): Dylan, LaLight
Joseph (2): Roadrunner, Calamitas

Not Voting (2): IDontPlayThisGame, faust

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch. Day 2 ends Friday 16th December. at 3pm forum time.

[Dylan32]

I don't understand why so much time is being spent talking about whether or not this or that role would have asked the mod for clarification.  I think everything that Jake did or said (or failed to do) was just a product of him being new.  But seriously, how does answering that question help us find scum?  If we are going to look at anything from that, it should be the people that are still alive and had a part in that.

So LaLight, I don't remember you actually explaining how asking that question would actually find scum when it was just a gotcha question that could trip up newbies of either alignment. I mean if someone can explain how asking about flavor names can find scum, then I'll be ok with it.  I still just don't see it.

[Joseph2302]

I don't understand why so much time is being spent talking about whether or not this or that role would have asked the mod for clarification.  I think everything that Jake did or said (or failed to do) was just a product of him being new.  But seriously, how does answering that question help us find scum?  If we are going to look at anything from that, it should be the people that are still alive and had a part in that.

So LaLight, I don't remember you actually explaining how asking that question would actually find scum when it was just a gotcha question that could trip up newbies of either alignment. I mean if someone can explain how asking about flavor names can find scum, then I'll be ok with it.  I still just don't see it.

I believe the reason was that good people had no flavour names, but scum may have been given flavour names. So if someone said they had a flavour name, they must be scum, as town don't have flavour names.

[faust]

Okay, so looking back at the whole Jake situation.

First thing is I really don't like Idplay's reaction:

There's also the part where he said he had a flavor name. I don't think town!jake would go through the effort to come up with nine names (granted, they're probably from the shows he watches).

That said, I don't feel good about another D1 Jake lynch. Not willing to vote just yet.

I'll be around for the deadline. There's plenty of time for me to see how this plays out and decide a little later. I'd rather not vote now and wake up to Jake being hammered after saying something that would sway me (if he flips town of course).

This is the kind of super-hedgy position that I would expect from newbie scum. Distancing a bit to see if the lynch goes through without our vote, but if necessary you can also vote there without being inconsistent.

Dylan's reaction feels genuine:

Although, after a few more seconds of thought, it could be scum!Jake's way of diverting the conversation onto the names themselves instead of letting us actually analyze him since he seemed to count on someone recognizing the names.  On the other hand, I do start to feel bad when I continuously try to read scum into Jake's game. Honestly, I think one of my biggest hesitations about voting for Jake is that I would probably feel bad watching someone who is relatively new get mislynched D1 two games in a row if he turns out to actually be town.  If he is lynched and flips scum, then I wouldn't feel bad at all; but I know what it feels like to feel ganged up on in mafia from irl games and it sucks to feel like people are ganging up on you and are going to lynch you early every game.

I mean, the scum!Jake theory there at the beginning is a bit out there. But the rest here seems towny.

Let's also see RR's position:

I can try. As town, Jake knows he can't scumslip. He can't mess up like that, because he's not scum. So as town, he'd just say he didn't have a flavor name. Boom, done. There would be no reason, besides 'I want to play this game without claiming or anything,' which by the way is a very antitown way to play.

However, as scum you can scumslip. You can mess up. So there's no way Jake would claim anything before asking a mod/his scumbuddies if there's a daychat/maybe stealthily asking us. New scum wouldn't claim at all, they'd either ignore the question or come up with something like Jake did.

I hope this makes sense!

I don't really agree, but this does make some sense, at least a lot more than what LaLight wrote on the issue.

Back from school now. I would prefer a Jake lynch over LaLight here. While I believe Jake might actually pull that (refusing to claim he hasn't one) as town in contrast to literally everyone else it is still evidence in favor of him being scum. Not really strong but good enough for D1 and more than I have on anyone else's case, so vote: Jake.
Will be around until deadline.

If you think the best way to play is to trick newbies, then I'm not sure this is going to be a "newbie friendly game". I don't want to lynch Jake because even if he's scum, the way people have worked it out is underhand and not cool

This is an interesting sentiment. It does seem like Joseph believes that Jake could be scum. Not a very strong indicator though.

LYNCH JAKE WIFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF HE IS SO OBVIOUSLY SCUM!

And this is not the way scum!RR usually plays.

After looking at the setup, I can only imagine that would be the case if he was a Babysitter (based on the flavor). However, this post makes it pretty clear he knows the difference:

Do you understand, that flavor name and role are two different things?

Yes I have stated that just now the role is what you are for example cop or doctor or Vt or tracker or Watcher or Jailkeeper
A flavor name is the name associated with the role based off the topic for example Vineyard in best Dominion card mafia 

Looking townie for RR as well.

huh. If i get the whole situation right, this is bad. Unvote

So is this where LaLight realizes that Jake might be a PR? LaLight, can you explain what happened in your mind here?

Joseph what do you think?

On what?

Yes scum knows PRs.
Scum people: I think LL and if RR is babysitter, then you're scum outing him

PPE:4

I really don't like this answer on "what do you think". Joseph hasn't given much of an opinion on this since now, and stalls by talking about other things when what clearly matters is his read on Jake.

In which parallel universe I'm a better lynch...That guy just scumslipped...

I don't like the tone of the, but can't really put into words why.

...then Jake self-hammers.

So what do we have?

- Idplay takes a hedgy position and then disappears.
- Dylan takes a kinda reasonable position and then disappears.
- Joseph stalls without ever giving a read on Jake.
- LaLight pushes a thin argument, then at some point realizes that this may have been bad (?), but finally goes back to the Jake wagon (??)
- RR pushes Jake hard and really seems genuinely convinced that he's scum.
- Calamitas also believes in the thin argument from the start, but doesn't really push a lot to make the lynch go through.

[faust]

I think RR is clearly the towniest, followed by Dylan. The rest is kinda murky.

[Calamitas]

I don't understand why so much time is being spent talking about whether or not this or that role would have asked the mod for clarification.  I think everything that Jake did or said (or failed to do) was just a product of him being new.  But seriously, how does answering that question help us find scum?  If we are going to look at anything from that, it should be the people that are still alive and had a part in that.

So LaLight, I don't remember you actually explaining how asking that question would actually find scum when it was just a gotcha question that could trip up newbies of either alignment. I mean if someone can explain how asking about flavor names can find scum, then I'll be ok with it.  I still just don't see it.

No one had flavour names, that was a known fact for LaLight. The central idea was that scum (when finding no flavour name) might not be willing to share any info because they might fear scunslipping while town would just say "have none".

[LaLight]

- LaLight pushes a thin argument, then at some point realizes that this may have been bad (?), but finally goes back to the Jake wagon (??)

I was at one point sure that Jake is a babysitter, but then he scumslipped with rolecop.

I'll be vla all the day

[Joseph2302]

I think RR is clearly the towniest, followed by Dylan. The rest is kinda murky.

RR is towny- not something I hear very often. I'd tend to agree though.

[Dylan32]

- LaLight pushes a thin argument, then at some point realizes that this may have been bad (?), but finally goes back to the Jake wagon (??)

I was at one point sure that Jake is a babysitter, but then he scumslipped with rolecop.

I'll be vla all the day

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

I don't understand why so much time is being spent talking about whether or not this or that role would have asked the mod for clarification.  I think everything that Jake did or said (or failed to do) was just a product of him being new.  But seriously, how does answering that question help us find scum?  If we are going to look at anything from that, it should be the people that are still alive and had a part in that.

So LaLight, I don't remember you actually explaining how asking that question would actually find scum when it was just a gotcha question that could trip up newbies of either alignment. I mean if someone can explain how asking about flavor names can find scum, then I'll be ok with it.  I still just don't see it.

No one had flavour names, that was a known fact for LaLight. The central idea was that scum (when finding no flavour name) might not be willing to share any info because they might fear scunslipping while town would just say "have none".

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

[faust]

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

You should probably reread the end of D1. Jake made it sound like he knew there was a Rolecop in the setup.

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

No. Which is why this argument is silly.

[Roadrunner7671]

Although I'm glad we all agree RR is town, I have no scum reads. With Jake's town flip, all I can do to possibly get a slight scum read is to analyze the wagon/the reaction to the wagon.

[Dylan32]

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

You should probably reread the end of D1. Jake made it sound like he knew there was a Rolecop in the setup.

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

No. Which is why this argument is silly.

Ah I found it. Post #586. I have no idea how I forgot that message.  That was the post that actually had made me decide to vote for Jake. Oh boy, finals week does not make it easy to remember stuff outside of class material... Last exam is Wednesday, so after that my head should be more in the game.

unvote

[Calamitas]

- LaLight pushes a thin argument, then at some point realizes that this may have been bad (?), but finally goes back to the Jake wagon (??)

I was at one point sure that Jake is a babysitter, but then he scumslipped with rolecop.

I'll be vla all the day

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

I don't understand why so much time is being spent talking about whether or not this or that role would have asked the mod for clarification.  I think everything that Jake did or said (or failed to do) was just a product of him being new.  But seriously, how does answering that question help us find scum?  If we are going to look at anything from that, it should be the people that are still alive and had a part in that.

So LaLight, I don't remember you actually explaining how asking that question would actually find scum when it was just a gotcha question that could trip up newbies of either alignment. I mean if someone can explain how asking about flavor names can find scum, then I'll be ok with it.  I still just don't see it.

No one had flavour names, that was a known fact for LaLight. The central idea was that scum (when finding no flavour name) might not be willing to share any info because they might fear scunslipping while town would just say "have none".

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

Don't know, though I agree that scum would be more reluctant to share such info than town. The only thing town has to fear is townslipping after all...

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'm still trying to figure out what to make of all this. Going to do a reread soonish if I can.

[faust]

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

You should probably reread the end of D1. Jake made it sound like he knew there was a Rolecop in the setup.

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

No. Which is why this argument is silly.

Ah I found it. Post #586. I have no idea how I forgot that message.  That was the post that actually had made me decide to vote for Jake. Oh boy, finals week does not make it easy to remember stuff outside of class material... Last exam is Wednesday, so after that my head should be more in the game.

unvote

But you didn't vote for Jake...

[LaLight]

So, I'm kinda here, but will catch up soonish (not now).

Still thinking about Calamitas/IDPTG team.

[Dylan32]

What did he say that tipped rolecop? That was D1 so he couldn't have used his ability up to that point, so even if he was a rolecop, his claiming RR was the babysitter would have just been speculation.  Also, even if he was scum and knew there was a babysitter, wouldn't there be two different options for the scum PR? How do you know that rolecop is the scum PR? vote: LaLight

You should probably reread the end of D1. Jake made it sound like he knew there was a Rolecop in the setup.

Are there really setups where town gets flavor names and scum doesn't?

No. Which is why this argument is silly.

Ah I found it. Post #586. I have no idea how I forgot that message.  That was the post that actually had made me decide to vote for Jake. Oh boy, finals week does not make it easy to remember stuff outside of class material... Last exam is Wednesday, so after that my head should be more in the game.

unvote

But you didn't vote for Jake...

This is like the 3rd time I've said this, but I decided to vote for him when I read the message I referenced as I was catching up at the EoD, but then I kept reading and realized that the self-hammer had happened an hour before that.  I know there's no way I can really prove that was my intention since it was literally impossible for me to vote at that point, but if it had gone long enough and no one changed their vote and he hadn't self-hammered, I would have declared intent to hammer as soon as I was caught up and then I would have been here ready to do so before the deadline.

[LaLight]

So, catching up.

Reactions of Dylan/RR are really sincere and they're obv!town for me (for now, RR could behave like that being scum I suppose?)

Till i hear something from IDPTG he is really scummy. Looks like newb!scum doesn't know what to do being surrounded by obv!townies and not wanting to bus the partner.

Calamitas is maybe trying to buddy me telling everyone my plan was good? That's what I'd do being scum i suppose. But that doesn't make me feel like he's town, it's easy to protect easy obvious plan for everyone.

PPE: 1